# How do you define 'Natural Horsemanship'?



## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

Pretty much self explanatory.

I keep hearing different definitions of 'natural horsemanship' but none that I actually feel fits.

Horsemanship isn't 'natural' however you look at it. Being ridden is one of the most UNnatural things for a horse to put up with. 

Some people feel that natural horsemanship is simply training while keeping the horse's natural instincts in mind. Using herd dynamics in order to reach one's goals. But that is no different than regular horsemanship. 

Some people feel that natural horsemanship is training with the least amount of force and gadgets possible. But that is no different than regular horsemanship.

The conclusion I've come to is that 'natural horsemanship' is nothing more than a brand name people use in order to make money. Not saying that the actual training they are trying to advertise is phooey, but a lot of it is simple brand power.

The old school trainers (Ray Hunt, the Dorrance brothers, Buck Brannan) never used the term 'Natural Horsemanship'. They just called it 'horsemanship'.

Good training is good training. Going back to ancient Greece, using the 'popular' definition of natural horsemanship, one could argue that Xenophon was the first real natural horsemanship trainer. 

I guess what I'm trying to get to is where does regular 'common sense training' end and 'natural horsemanship' begin?


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

It is a brand name. Used to sell ridiculous equipment and videos that people think they *have* to have to train their horse. And if they don't have the next video in the series they simply can't move forward.

One time, a long time ago, it did have real meaning. Not anymore.

Xenophon would laugh at Parelli and all the other NH types. He's got great writings on common sense horsemanship.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

If you were to define Natural Horsemanship based on the words used, it would be using the most natural methods of training a horse from understanding their motives to occasional "force" when necessary just as a head mare would in a herd.

Unfortunately, the term was adopted, as Solon said, as a brand name and has lost nearly all of its original meaning.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Working with the horse as is. No gimmicks or special things you have to buy to be 'natural'.


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## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

That's the feeling I have about it too. I don't mind Lyons, but I find Parelli completely ridiculous.

I don't mind 'NH methods', I just don't like everything that goes along with it (the cult mentality, the marketing, the 'you TOO can have this horse if you follow my program which costs $999.99+ tax'). 

That being said, the original NH-ers (who weren't even called NH-ers back then) knew what was what. Most of them are up there on my "people I want to bring back from the dead in order to interrogate" list (along with Dr Reiner Klimke, Wilhelm Museler, Sally Swift etc...).


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## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

mls said:


> Working with the horse as is. No gimmicks or special things you have to buy to be 'natural'.


In that case, which of the 'big name' NH trainers today would you consider TRUE nh-ers? (Just curious)


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I agree, most popular NH trainers use "Natural Horsemanship" as a label so they can charge $150 dollars for a rope halter and lead and $7000 for a saddle. REAL natural horsemanship, IMHO, is about using the horse's own language to get them to understand and the trainer understanding how they think. I honestly believe that TRUE NH is somewhere right in the middle of the "beat them until they submit------Oh, I don't want to hurt poor fluffy's feelings" scale. You have to be as gentle as possible but as firm as necessary. Sometimes that means a swift kick or a solid pop and other times it means a soft hand on the neck and a gentle word.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

smrobs said:


> you have to be as gentle as possible but as firm as necessary. Sometimes that means a swift kick or a solid pop and other times it means a soft hand on the neck and a gentle word.


qft!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

"Natural Horsemanship" aka "Easy way to make $". 


There just simply isn't a such thing. Riding a horse is NOT natural to a horse, therefore how can there even be a "Natural" in the "Horsemanship"? It's all just hoax--an easy way to make $millions (or for Parilli, at least). It's just a brand name people have gotten cought up with. I agree with some of their practices, but I would never call it "natural". Just simple horsemanship is fine.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Solon said:


> qft!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  Sorry, I am a little behind on the whole acronym thing. Could you say this in english please. LOL:lol:


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## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

Quoted for truth. Kind of like 'amen'.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Aha, Thank you. LOL. I feel so behind the times. {


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *smrobs*  
_you have to be as gentle as possible but as firm as necessary. Sometimes that means a swift kick or a solid pop and other times it means a soft hand on the neck and a gentle word._


That sums it up pretty darn good

I learned from the very best --- my Grandpap. He was right up there with the Dorrance brothers.

I had no idea what a lucky kid I was until I got to be a LOT older.

Aome of the stories I read on these forums really makes me appreciate what a grand gentleman and horse trainer my Grandpap was.

The NH premise was a good one in the beginning, but like all good things, got spoiled by greed. 

No, you certainly do not need all those "tools". And heaven forbid, we broke all our horses to ride and drive on the tractor lane.

Learned their leads on that tractor lane too -- how DID we figure out to make them do that?

Took the roughness out of their trots and lopes in the freshly plowed fields every spring, under the strict guidance of our Grandpap, so we wouldn't overwork the horse - simple, effective and probably took a lot less time than going round and round in a round pen.

NO ONE had a roundpen or an arena unless they lived out West or were the children of someone rich and went to an expensive training barn for lessons.

There came to be a lot of new horse owners who didn't have a family member or friend to turn to for horse help. Along comes the NH trainers to help these folks.

Too bad it all got ruined. I have no use for any of them.

If a person wants to truly understand the inner workings of a horse which, ultimately, helps a person understand how to train EACH INDIVIDUAL horse, I highly recommend
www.markrashid.com


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Working with the horse, not against it, using THEIR psychology, not human psychology. Putting ourselves in their shoes. Understanding his ideas, his fears, his needs, and not making him feel wrong for acting like a prey animal. Never ever putting our goals before our principles. Becoming more horse than man, willing to change ourselves for our horse. Not using gadgets and mechanical devices to achieve results, but working with the horse in a way that develops him mentally and emotionally before physically. 

There are so many things NH means, at least to me.


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## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

Okay, question part b...

How does 'natural' horsemanship differ from 'conventional common sense' horsemanship?


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## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

The topic of NH is quite sensitive on these boards, but in my opinion I agree completely with what has been said. I've been taught to use my common sense. Horsemanship is just that, you use your common sense and communicate with your horse accordingly. I see so many people ignore their instincts and turn to these money makers, and only end up getting more confused than they originally were. Smrobs is completely right... I know of a perfect example where force had to be used. My friend had a youngster who associated her as the herd leader, which is what we all aim for... but he also thought of her as someone he could play with... obviously us humans couldn't handle a horse trying to mount or leap at us playfully... she didn't want to scold him and tell him he wasn't allowed to play, but she didn't want to get hurt either. She came up with the idea of "what would a mare do in her position?" -- she'd kick him to get out of her space. So, the next time said horse got excited at her arrival and came flying up behind her to play, she backed into him, lifted her leg but slapped him across the chest with her hand as if she had kicked him. It was incredibly effective, he didn't do it again.
So I'm a firm believer in understanding herd/horse dynamics and rely on my common sense to help myself through most situations. I don't believe in spending a lot of money for equipment that would no doubt end up not being used. 
x


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## Calamity Jane (Mar 16, 2009)

Misfit said:


> Okay, question part b...
> 
> How does 'natural' horsemanship differ from 'conventional common sense' horsemanship?


It doesn't.:wink:

The NH title was coined by Parelli for marketing purposes, because it sounds warm and fuzzy. And frankly, it worked, didn't it? Welcome to the USA home of capitolism. 

The thing is...when you say, "NH" people automatically figure you're not going to break out the stud chain and start yanking on the horse, whipping the horse or tying his leg up to make him stand still, you're not going to be a rough neck,.....



> Working with the horse, not against it, using THEIR psychology, not human psychology. Putting ourselves in their shoes. Understanding his ideas, his fears, his needs, and not making him feel wrong for acting like a prey animal. Never ever putting our goals before our principles. Becoming more horse than man, willing to change ourselves for our horse. Not using gadgets and mechanical devices to achieve results, but working with the horse in a way that develops him mentally and emotionally before physically.
> 
> There are so many things NH means, at least to me.


 Me too.

This is the same stuff that Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance.... first started telling people and Parelli and Lyons and all else, took those ideas and ran with them....marketing them to "revamp" horsemanship for the new horse owners who aren't fortunate enough to of grown up with a grandpappy teaching them common sense when handling horses.

It's not training for the horse, it's training for the human. Lots of horse owners nowadays have no idea what to do when their horse runs them over, or bucks them off....they don't know why...they don't know what to do.

So, here comes Parelli, Lyons, Clinton Anderson, etc... with a step by step clear way of handling their problems. 

How is that bad? 

I train using all of techniques that came from Dorrance and Hunt through Lyons and C.Anderson and all them....it is nothing more than common sense. But I didn't have a grandpappy to teach me the ropes. I didn't grow up around horses, I sure as hell couldn't train one, let alone fix any issues caused by bad handling..... til I started to read and study all the "NH" stuff....that made training into an easy way of understanding the horse. 

I always tell people, they don't need anything special to train, and have been able to prove it. Just a full cheek or a dee ring snaffle bit, a web or rope halter (doesn't matter which nor doesn't matter if it's an "official" anyone brand)....doesn't matter what kind of lead rope, or whatever.... 
I haven't found a horse yet that cares what I use....he cares about how I use it. 

Does the Sampson rope or the ropes like it make things easier? you bet. I like the feel of those ropes and I've found websites where I can get the exact same stuff for cut rate prices. 

It does peeve me to hear people say that you need special stuff and to spend an incredible amount of money to "get it"....because I know that you don't. You can use whatever you've got from your local tack shop that's on sale. 

I've used $8 halters, web halters, regular rope, heavy rope, light Sampson rope....doesn't matter. One has better feel than the other? Sure. But is it necessary? No.

I am glad for the "NH" stuff coming out to the public, because for the past 30 years, it's caused people who would otherwise resort to harsh tactics (beatings, real cruelty) realize that none of that is necessary....that there's a "better" way. A humane way to train and retrain problems...it's training for the human and the horse, mostly for the human. That's what sets it apart from regular horsemanship, too, I think. Instead of blaming the horse, NH suggests to see what you're doing to cause or not cause things to happen. 

As Ray Hunt liked to say...the horse is never wrong.

So, what if NH has a label. Everything has a label if you want to sell it to the public. If it was just called common sense regular horsemanship, that would be fine. But it isn't. So, who cares? The label has gotten people to see and think about their horses differently...in a good way. And frankly, I think that's all that matters.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Actually, it's got people to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars that they don't need to. It's crippled people in their training and moving forward because they can't get a head until they do game number whatever or watch number 3 in the DVD series or they buy the carrot stick.

It's ridiculous. 

You don't need that crap. If you aren't comfortable being around horses you need to find someone that is and work with them. Or find a reputable trainer. 

Natural Horsemanship isn't natural horsemanship anymore. It left the real meaning a long time ago. Today's Natural Horsemanship is nothing but $$$$.


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

I sort of agree with everyone that NH has moved onto $$$ .
Parelli is a case in point - anyone remember his book with a pic of him sat on his horse with no gear at all - now you can buy all the parelli rig for huge ammount of $$$ - parelli will say that HIS rig is better than everyone else's and that if you want to do HIS programme then you need HIS rig.

NH to me is just a load of old BS for people to make money.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I remember the first time I saw a Parelli catalog. I was working at a feed store and glanced through the pages and busted out laughing with the definition of each product. That man and all of the others have been a burden to me ever since. I don't think a day goes by when I don't here one of their names or have a run in with one of their unsuccessful followers. A couple years ago, I called it common sense horsemanship on a forum and several people got mad at me saying it wasn't common sense and people needed to be taught. Funny, huh?

The biggest problem that I find with the horses produced from this program is the disguise that they are hiding behind. The horses and the people find security and "release of the pressure" from succeeding in the exercise that they are doing. To look through that horses eyes, feel the energy from that horse, that horse is always mad, they are obedient, but angry. The people think that if the horse performs what it is supposed to perform, then the horse has succeded, it behaved....

I have seen someone trying to push a horse with a fractured hip to try and jump cow barrels. I have seen a horse scared out of its mind stand on a tractor tire, only to run over someone later on.

My husband and I usually watch downunder horsemanship for the comedy value, and I'm not talking about Clinton's "sense of humor". 

I guess where I'm getting at is that yes, its all a money making gimmick. I know some people find success with the programs, but I personally have had to fix more horses screwed up by NH followers than ignorant horse owners. The physical issues that show up in hard core NH horses are common beyond belief. Its almost like a plague.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Hmm, I see no gimmick here......Parelli works, you can't deny that. Plain and simple. And Pat is a master horseman. Anyone who wants to debate that, well, I think that person needs to pay a little closer attention to how horses respond to Pat.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I can see that people get results that they would think would be desirable, but when you look through that shell, there is a lot more to unravel. I would be more than happy to debate how good the parelli program actually is for a horse in physical ways. I have done plenty of research into the parelli program as well as others, once you know what to look for, the problems scream at you. I personally know several horses owned by a professional horse person that left the parelli program because of what it did to her horses. That only skims the bucket. I know another horse that people think is amazing because of all of the "tricks" that it does because of the Parelli program. That same horse pins its ears and grinds its teeth while being groomed. I could go on and on from here. 

I have watched the Parelli programs and to be perfectly honest with you, I either have to laugh or fall asleep. A good horseman needs to be good for the horse in all ways. I know plenty of people that can do amazing things with a horse, and they can ride! Go figure! Parelli puts people and horses through the exercises. They respond to the exercises and that is where there comfort lies, the horse itself never finds true comfort with itself or with the people. The exercises they perform are not necessarily good for the horse itself, the horse just learns to be obedient so they can stop!

If all you want is an obedient horse, then by all means, go with NH trainers, they make obedient horses, I won't deny it. If you want a sound, balanced, athletic horse, look elsewhere.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Hmm... I think that NH is, to me, as has been said before, using the way a horse thinks to advance and refine his training and correct/redirect undesireable behavior. As far as the line between NH and common sense goes, the line is one word repeated over and over: Advertising. Not sure what I'll do when "they" copyright Common Sense Horsemanship, lol. 

Also, as has been said, a lot of today's "Hollywood NH" is fluff and advertizing. My dad compares it to fishing, overpriced junk designed to catch the fisherman, not the fish. Mom quoted the movie Tin Cup and calls some of it "paraphernalia for lost and desperate souls." 

I do follow a lot of Clinton Anderson's exercises, they get results for me and seem easy for me to apply and for my horses to understand. I am not, however, a hard-core follower of any specific method. I simply find ideas that make sense to me and my understanding, and experiment. NH as the media has popularized it has a lot to offer, and so does whatever you call what existed before the NH "revolution." It's all about common sense and thinking it through and applying what is best for the horse, both in health and safety, and in training.

And, it all _can_ be done on a budget. I had to make it work on a budget, trust me. Thank you RFDTV, eBay (I love benefiting from other people giving up on fads, lol), Equine Affaire off brand discounts, and improvisiation!

I personally employ some common sense training, and balance the "informal" (for lack of a better word) groundwork and foundation laying with some dressage based riding exercises. I'm hoping that at the end of the day I have a willing horse with the obedience of an NH trained animal, and the correctness and balance, etc. of a more traditionally (again, for lack of a better word) trained horse.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Perhaps you would be interested to hear what Karen Rohlf has to say about Parelli. Or to read her book. Karen, who is VERY well decorated in dressage, is a Level 3 graduate and incorporates Parelli into her dressage training. She takes the horse through the program before she ever starts any real dressage training. As she puts it, from what I can remember from her book, "I call what I do Dressage, Naturally, because I'm trying to fill in the gap where NH ends and dressage begins. NH teaches you a lot about the mental and emotional aspects of the horse, and some, but not as much, physical aspects. Dressage can teach you a lot about the physical aspects of the horse, but not as much about the mental and emotional aspects. If we combine these two things, then we have it all.....we have Dressage, done Naturally."


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I must admit I have never before heard of her, so, I went ahead and checked her out. Thank you so much for proving my point!

At least she does encourage the horse to release through the topline, but many of those horses, when asked to collect, are still bracing through the bottom of the neck and have very poor flexion through the hind legs and limited flexibility through the shoulders. Very heavy on the forehand in most of the shots I saw. 

Dressage as a whole as been contorted and manipulated so much that there is a lot of discussion on what actually is right for a horse. I see a lot of grand prix level dressage horses that are still disengaged and weak through their toplines.

Now I will admit that I could not perform many of those things on my own horses, but whatever I will do on my horses will be done in or working towards an ideal posture.

From what I saw of her clinics, it was suggested that they already be a level 2 student. For many horses, a lot of damage has been done by this point. There is a way, "naturally" of course, to form a relationship with your horse without jeopardizing their physical well being.

Kudos to her and yourself for acknowledging the lack of physcial training in that program and working to put it in. However, perhaps you would be interested in learning a little more about the biomechanics of the horse. Good night, I'm tired.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Horses do respond to Pat. Horses don't seem to follow his minions very well at all.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Horses do respond to Pat. Horses don't seem to follow his minions very well at all.


 
Amen.

I agree with others who say that NH is just common sense. I never really knew about Parelli until a couple of years ago, but guess what? My horses alreadyhad all the skills, without the 'games' and without any type of vegetable stick, and without any DVD's. Isn't it funny that such a 'revolutionary' system could have been stumbled upon by a 16yo girl? 

The more I learn about Parelli through these boards and talking to other horse people, the more I find it echoes what I do with my horses but doesn't define it. It is not something that has to be done in isolation, as many preach. It is also something that can, and has, resulted in many bad situations for both horses and owners, although more commonly horses.

I don't dispute that Parelli may well be a fantastic horseman and have a great relationship with horses... But that isn't really the point anymore, is it? They have sold the idea that anyone can be and do what he does, which in most cases is not inly untrue, but dangerous.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Actually, I did not prove your point. Karen acknowledges that the program does in fact teach people about the physical aspects of the horse....just not as much. I'm studying Karen's way of teaching, working with her exercises with my warmblood, so I DO know about healthy, proper biomechanics in the horse  In fact, in my equine massage work, I SUGGEST people work on Karen's exercise called "finding the sweet spot." My warmblood came to me with some dressage training, but was he supple, relaxed, engaged....no way. He was bracy, in his body and mind, lazy, had a bad attitude and hated being ridden. Now, thanks to Parelli, all those issues are gone. Working with an excellent chiropractor, getting his feet trimmed and balanced right, getting his teeth floated right, doing Parelli, and doing a couple of Karen's exercises, have turned him into a wonderful, beautiful moving horse who is a pleasure to ride. Personally, I have not seen with my horses, or any of the horses I've worked with in the past, respond badly, in any area including physically, do the Parelli program. And I do know what to look for, I've been trained (equine massage work).


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Solon said:


> Horses do respond to Pat. Horses don't seem to follow his minions very well at all.


Hmm, so if I'm one of his "minions" my warmblood should, according to you, be aggressive, vicious, unpredictable, still. Well, I can assure you that is not the case, so apparently he's responding to me quite nicely.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

I don't know you from a corn flake so I don't know if you are one of his minions or not. All I know is what I see in person here and quite frankly none of us see these Parelli people creating a good foundation on their horses. They stand in the arena with their stupid equipment and NOTE CARDS trying to figure out the next step is.

People need to throw away that crap and be there with the horse and listen to the horse. These types of people ruin horses. 

There are exceptions to every rule. Statistically speaking, there have to be some that end up with the knowledge that Pat has, beyond that it's complete chaos. 

That's been proven here. The number of people that frown on Parelli and his methods. Sure he works a horse just fine. But that isn't translating down to the majority of the people. Ask any number of trainers out there retraining Parelli horses. There are a lot.

But hey as long as he's making money off these people, no harm right?


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## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

In my experience, Pat IS a good horseman. Unfortunately, fame and $$$$ has damaged his brain.

Whenever I encounter Parelli-ites, I always ask them to justify this 



 or this




 or this 

"many riders have learned to sit up straight, put their shoulders back and their heels down. Our studies have shown that this often does not work for the horse because it causes him to become stiff and restricted in his movement and put more weight on the forehand." 

http://www.parellisaddles.com"

or this 

parellifoaljump.jpg (image) (jumping a 2 month old foal is NOT cool)

or what about this

Parelli.com - HomePage

Please, someone, enlighten me.


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## TroubledTB (Jun 26, 2009)

I dunno, I'm getting tired of NH people at my barn who went to a one week clinic and came back telling me how they know more than me. When they got back the big challenge was to use the yo yo game to back the horse out of a step up. In forty five minutes they couldn't get him to back up. I went in there and with two minutes of pressure to that spot on their chest and a firm grip on the halter I had him out. But that wasn't good enough because I didn't do it their way. Now I'm being criticised by a teenager whos never had a lesson, and one clinic, and I've ridden all my life come from a horsey familiy, showed, broke, and ridden, multiple horses, but she's got the gift because it's NH. Give me a break! Next time you get your horse out of the trailer, and don't yell at me when I tell you not to let him eat in there because it gives him no incentive to leave. But I don't think like a horse, nope, not at all.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

Today's idea of "Natural Horsemanship" is the exact opposite of what is natural to horses. So if you want to figure out the NH way, think of what comes natural to the horse, then do the opposite. =P

Being surrounded by NH people, I was beginning to think I was the only one left with a brain in my head. I'm so happy to see I'm not alone here. It's so frustrating to see this poison spreading all over the horse world. It's totally based on the human mind, without a shred of the horse's psychology anywhere. That's no kind of horsemanship in my mind, that's..manmanship, or something xD
I find some of Clinton Anderson's stuff useful, but I still haven't managed to find a speck of good in that Parelli character's "horsemanship".
When it comes to horsemanship my main man, next to the horse of course, is Mr. Chris Cox. Now that's a guy who gets horses. I can't say I always agree with him, but for the most part he's definitely seeing it the right way.

Anyway..sorry I'm so thankful to finally get to release some of this pent up frustration and annoyance! Haha


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Spirithorse said:


> Hmm, I see no gimmick here......Parelli works, you can't deny that. Plain and simple. And Pat is a master horseman. Anyone who wants to debate that, well, I think that person needs to pay a little closer attention to how horses respond to Pat.


I won't argue that Pat is one hell of a horseman. However, he learned that from a lifetime of working with horses and learning from THEM, not a DVD set. Contrary to what you may believe, he was not always the fluffy training version that he is today. He simply found out what the public is willing to pay big bucks for and started selling it (whether it makes sense or not). Many of his "minions" so often discussed create the problems because they are so focused on progressing to the next game or next savvy level or whatever that they don't actually watch and learn from the horse. That creates unhappy, sour, or bored horses. Then the people don't understand why the horse has so many issues with other things i.e. grooming, shoeing, etc. Plus, what is the reason for jacking up the prices of everything so much? I can go to my local tack store and get a halter/lead for $30 less than he sells his for. Why would I spend $60 for a orange stick with a string hooked to the end of it when I can use a twig from a tree with baling twing? At least if mine breaks, I am not out $125 (cost of the first one then having to get another). And $106 for a "hackamore" that is not even a real hackamore? No thanks. I have got a $5 rope halter and $25 mecate rein that works just fine.



Spirithorse said:


> Perhaps you would be interested to hear what Karen Rohlf has to say about Parelli. Or to read her book. Karen, who is VERY well decorated in dressage, is a Level 3 graduate and *incorporates Parelli into her dressage training*. She takes the horse through the program before she ever starts any real dressage training. As she puts it, from what I can remember from her book, "I call what I do Dressage, Naturally, because I'm trying to fill in the gap where NH ends and dressage begins. NH teaches you a lot about the mental and emotional aspects of the horse, and some, but not as much, physical aspects. Dressage can teach you a lot about the physical aspects of the horse, but not as much about the mental and emotional aspects. If we combine these two things, then we have it all.....we have Dressage, done Naturally."


Well that says it right there. In order to get a finished horse, you must incorporate other methods. Some of Pat's methods are excellent as a beginning base but you need to take in every bit of information you can in order to get a finished horse in any or all disciplines. No one training method works for all horses!!!

What is really scary is before long, he will start selling DVDs specialized for training your horse in reining, barrels, cutting, dressage, jumping, WP, HUS, etc, etc. All in the name of money.

I am sorry for the super long rant and I am not ragging on you, Spirit, but it just frustrates me to hear people say that "insertmethodhere" is the only way to train to get good horses and every other method is either ineffective, cruel, or ignorant. There are just as many horses, if not more, that are screwed up by NH followers as there are with any other method of training. The whole reason for that is because they teach people tricks instead of understanding. People who don't watch the horse get confused and frustrated when their horse reacts differently than the one on the DVD. DVD's don't make horsemen, watching and learning from HORSES makes horsemen.

Anyway, no offense to the OP, but to avoid starting a fight, this will be my last post in this thread.


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

Smrobs - really like your last post. Shame it's gonna be your last post as your opinions are one of the few that actually make any sense.

Most people have an opinion without being able to qualify their position.


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## brookelovesparelli (Jan 21, 2009)

I do Believe that the money has gone to pats head but I believe that their is good in the 7 games. Although you CAN get your horses to do all of the movements/etc. that the games are intended for & to help, I believe the games are like exercises that have been made up to practice the skills etc. But are fun & can be turning into other games or exercises (what ever you want to call it) that are fun for the humans as well as horses. And although its not 'NATURAL horse man ship' because if it/anything to do with horses it would be they never have any human contact & are out in the wild grazing, It's got the 'NATURAL' sort of well, herd dynamics, such as the 'dominant' horse, well it this case human, moves the 'herd' members feet etc. Directing them with body movements & 'looks' Which is was the Parelli program is trying to enforce. It's all about you & your horse being a 'herd' of two, that when we domesticate horses/ponies, we agree to taking on the role of being the horses 'guide/carer', & the 'alpha' horse, the herd leader. Parelli is just a 'training' or 'group of exercises' made to try & be as 'horsie' as possible. Without growing 4 legs & a tail. As for the 'carrot stick' it can be called what you like (god knows why pat called it a carrot stick) but in Parelli's eyes its a 'extension' of you. So if your horse is farther away than your arm/ or what ever, can reach you have the 'stick'. it's not a whip because in no way shape or form is it bendy.... Now sorry to take over the thread caz it wasn't ever about Parelli.


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## brookelovesparelli (Jan 21, 2009)

OH, & with the equipment being sold, not just the ropes, halters 7 carrot sticks etc. But of course you can do & buy the same stuff for much much less. But it's just all about marketing, etc. If the only income you were bringing in was just buy selling tickets & DVD's, Im fairly sure you'd be investing in having other horse items for sale etc. Especially with all the land, horses etc around the country just earning money on tickets & DVD's wouldn't be enough to live such a 'luxurious' life style, fly all around the world (with your horses) to run seminars etc, paying bills etc. So yes some of it is a (well not gimic) but not nessasary items, But it's all about the branding etc.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

smrobs said:


> Well that says it right there. In order to get a finished horse, you must incorporate other methods. Some of Pat's methods are excellent as a beginning base but *you need to take in every bit of information you can* in order to get a finished horse in any or all disciplines. *No one training method works for all horses!!!...*
> 
> ... it just frustrates me to hear people say that "insertmethodhere" is the only way to train to get good horses and every other method is either ineffective, cruel, or ignorant... DVD's don't make horsemen, watching and learning from HORSES makes horsemen.


 Amen, smrobs! I can't say it enough!


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

Please don't turn this into a "lets bash the professional clinician" thread. 
I for one am glad they are out there to help horse lovers who need help when no other is available. 
The OP's question was "how do you define natural horsmeanship?"
*Back to topic*


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

I think the key is taking aspects of as many different training methods as possible, including NH. There ARE some good things taught in NH, I'm just not willing to pay eleventy billion dollars to play games with my horse.


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## TroubledTB (Jun 26, 2009)

Vidaloco said:


> Please don't turn this into a "lets bash the professional clinician" thread.
> I for one am glad they are out there to help horse lovers who need help when no other is available.
> *Back to topic*


No one is really bashing the professional clinician, just the people who pay eleventy billion dollars to go and then come back to explain to everyone how they have been doing it all wrong. It's the people were bashing, not the trainers, because obviously the clinicians are doing something right because they can demonstrate, whilst their minions abound can't do squat, but proclaim to know the secrets of the universe! As for being there when no one else is available, I have to disagree, when I was younger, much younger, as I am pretty young, clinic were designed for horse people in training, or with experience, to get another opinion or a chance to ride/take a lesson from one of the greats, hence a george morris or will simpson clinic. This was an opportunity to advance your horsemanship and get a new perspective. It was not designed to take a green rider and horse give them some tools (which can and do work) and let them go expecting to do it all themselves. "I too, can break this wild mustang stallion!" with three easy payments of $$$!! I love the focus on ground work, I hate the idea that a clinic can replace supervision by a knowledgeable horse person. I also don't like the my way or the highway approach, which I feel asks you to close your mind to any other ideas. Being a good horseperson is exactly the opposite. One of the smartest things I was ever told to do is have three different ideas on how to get your horse to accomplish the desired task. Anyways, someone said something about Pat Parelli learned from horses, not his DVDs, and that's the truth. To many people want to read a book for the answers, they don't want to think for themselves. Most people who play with horses, figure out NH without even trying. I did, then I read about it and thought "wow, thats how you explain it to people! Duh!" Can't say I didn't learn anything, but mostly I learned how to talk to people about horses, not how to be a person who can talk to horses.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Misfit said:


> In that case, which of the 'big name' NH trainers today would you consider TRUE nh-ers? (Just curious)


I don't follow anyone in particular. 

I take all BN clinicians (NH or discipline specific) with a grain of salt as I have the opportunity to talk with them at our expo away from the crowds. 

The last few years they have all impressed me by saying there is not one method that works for every horse or person.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

TroubledTB said:


> *No one is really bashing the professional clinician, just the people who pay eleventy billion dollars to go and then come back to explain to everyone how they have been doing it all wrong. It's the people were bashing, not the trainers, because obviously the clinicians are doing something right because they can demonstrate, whilst their minions abound can't do squat, but proclaim to know the secrets of the universe! *


In bashing the students you are bashing members here. Many are followers of one clinician or another. Some have spent lots of money, I'm sure you can appreciate that they don't like being called silly for doing it. That is my point in keeping this thread on track. Thanks


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Amen to Smrobs post. Mirrors my thoughts exactly.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

When I think about Natural Horsemanship - 

I think about the Native Americans and how phenominally in tuned they were with their horses. 

Natural Horsemanship started with the Ancient Greeks - it has been around since we were - it is something to be respected.

The Native Americans had it right.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

The Greeks - most definitely. I have a couple books on the Romans and their cavalry. They realized the important relationship with their horses. I've read a lot of Xenophon's writings. People should check those out. Very good stuff.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I have to say, I love this guy:


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

I have his book. I want to get the DVD to see how he is in person. The book was really cool.


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## SuperStarsSugar (Sep 9, 2009)

I would say that Natural Horsemanship, while seeking the same goals as conventional methods, is different in that it intentionally breaks down the training process into steps that a horse can more easily understand. Stages of pressure (kind of like in a pasture situation: tail swish, ear pin, bite, kick), rewards for trying, etc. When I was in Pony Club, one of the things I noticed is that my instructors didn't do this. You asked the horse one way with one stage of pressure, and if they didn't do it, or didn't get it, you beat the living S*** out of the poor beast until it did. Maybe that was just my division though.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

MIEventer said:


> When I think about Natural Horsemanship -
> 
> I think about the Native Americans and how phenominally in tuned they were with their horses.
> 
> The indians lived in a brutal time and used brutal methods but there were no video cameras to record it so we can have PollyAnna fantasies about how wonderful they were. People have always been people and horses have always been horses. I'm sure there were good and bad. Also they ate the ones that caused problems rather than waste time trying to fix them. Our government has seen fit to deny us that option.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Kevinshorses,


I feel that your statement goes to the core of the original question.

There have always been and more than likely will always be a soft approach and a hard approach.
That goes for all of life also.
Some people are just trying to skate up hill into a blowing wind and fight the whole way and some find easier methods to accomplish the SAME task.

It is a very personal choice.


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