# Dr. Cook Bitless Bridle?



## That lil onyx (Jul 3, 2014)

I've been bitless for a 3 years now with my mare, and she's in the Dr. Cook bitless bridle. As I've spent time on here, I've seen many opinions about their severity. My mare loves hers and I'm light handed, so I wouldn't even dream of hurting her. She's very responsive. So anyway, I was just wondering if anyone uses Dr. Cook or has used it and what y'all think/thought about it?


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

've never heard of them before, but I've seen ones like it used. There are all different types of bitless type bridles out there. To me though, I do not really understand what the difference is between bitless bridles and hackamores. This here is the type of Hackamore I used as a kid, rubber noseband and everything


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I have one and I don't use it to be honest. My mare tolerated it but her half brother had some wartime flashback in it and freaked out. He settled after a little while but the first few minutes of bucking and crow hopping were enough to convince me to to put it on him again. I really like the idea of a bitless bridle but both my horses seem fine in a bit.


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## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

The device is only as severe as the hands behind them. 

As I have stated in similar post most of these “Dr Seuss magic bridle” things are just gimmicks that are marketed to get the unknowing public to buy the latest and greatest fix all head gear gadget. When people as me about bitless I suggest they look into a traditional working hackamore, aka “Bosal and Mecate” or just using a rope halter to start. 

However; you need to keep in mind there is still no substitute for proper training. Whatever device you use whether it be with a bit or without , you will still need to prepare the horse to respond to the devices signal if you expect them to succeed.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

The picture that Nakotaheaven added is pretty common.

Frankly, I think whatever works best for your horse is great  Glad to hear you found something that works well for you both! <3


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Hackamore said:


> The device is only as severe as the hands behind them.
> 
> As I have stated in similar post most of these “Dr Seuss magic bridle” things are just gimmicks that are marketed to get the unknowing public to buy the latest and greatest fix all head gear gadget. When people as me about bitless I suggest they look into a traditional working hackamore, aka “Bosal and Mecate” or just using a rope halter to start.
> 
> However; you need to keep in mind there is still no substitute for proper training. Whatever device you use whether it be with a bit or without , you will still need to prepare the horse to respond to the devices signal if you expect them to succeed.


I agree with you completely. And, all I ever use on horses are snaffle bits when I'm using a bitted bridle, hackamores, and rope halters. I never have and likely never will use any new marketed gimmick, because to me they all do the same thing, only difference is some allow more force than learning to get the training/fixing done


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## myQHpaul (Jun 25, 2009)

I think it's also all about the training. I can ride Sonny bareback in his halter and a long lead rope because we spent many hours working on subtle cues. I do ride in a bit when I want to control him a little more but I love the freedom we both feel in a bitless.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

I used one for a short period. I switched to a short-shanked English mech. hackamore.
Use what works best for you and your horse! Keep both of you happy! : )


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

I tried a Dr. Cook's on my gelding who I ride in a hackamore and he hated it. Called the company to be sure that it was placed correctly and all that nonsense, he still hated it, walked through it, wouldn't listen to cues or commands so I took it off him and sent it back.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I have one green horse who doesn't like the bit, not a medical issue, he just spends more time futzing with it than paying attention to the rider. He will ride in anything bitless very well. He handles as well in the Dr. Cooks as he does in a bosal with Mecate reins. 

I prefer the Dr. Cooks because he is green and if the need arises where I need to disengage or do a one rein stop, it feels like I have better control of the lateral head movement.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

Here is a quote from a previous post of mine regarding cross under bitless bridles. 

"I'm personally not a fan of the cross under bridles, they work for some people and that's fantastic for them and their horses, but they aren't for my training style. I like simple things, and when I have used them, it was like teaching a foreign language to my horse. I started with a well broke mare of mine and it just did not go well. This mare is soft as melted butter in whatever I ride her in, a hay string around her neck, side pull, snaffle, curb, bridleless and I need to pick up on a piece on mane to correct her etc. She is normally the most relaxing ride and she is incredibly tolerant which is why she was my test subject. She's so soft to the point that she was completely overwhelmed by this thing. With the pressure tightening under her jaw, she was convinced it was asking her to stick her nose in the air. It was not a 'i'm sticking my nose up to resist pressure.' It was a calm, raising her nose up and quietly moving away from the squeezing on the under side of her jaw. This is a mare that you can lift your hand a quarter inch up from her neck when you're riding around and she'll break at the poll from that light feel on her face. I had to use my hands in a very exaggerated manner on the ground in order for her to follow the feel from my hand. Even then, when she gave laterally, it was a mess. She would twist her head in an awkward way, sticking her nose up while her head came down and twisting away from my hand. She was very prone to back up away from the pressure as well. The more I fiddled with it, the more I saw that I was not happy with the release either. My particular bridle just didn't seem to be well thought out. The rings to attach the reins were heavier than the leather that crossed under. This caused it to constantly have a little pressure on her and never quite released completely. All this said, I was bound and determined to get a feel for what this was all about. I worked her for a couple weeks in this cross under design and I just was not happy. Eventually, she rode around in it alright but it wasn't up to my standards. Once she got over sticking her nose UP, it came in. I was constantly driving her forward with my legs as that pressure because of the poor release was constantly on her. She was very prone to dive behind the bridle and looked like she'd been ridden by Anky Van Grunsven or another rollkur advocate. I could never just relax. It was a constant getting behind the bit and behind my leg, her neck felt like a little rolly polly bug all curled in .Once I went back to things she was familiar with, it took another couple weeks to get her right. As I only used one test subject, my opinion isn't worth much. However, with my results, I didn't want to put it on other horses. I do feel that it would work better on a completely green horse who wasn't used to a completely different type of pressure."


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Hondo hates the bit. I tried Cook's and he really likes it. He will put his nose in it and even try to help me put it on. When riding I cannot detect any difference in responsiveness between it and the snaffle.

While riding by the nearby herd one day, they spooked and I had 22 horses streaming by on both sides of me. I was able to control Hondo to within about a 4 foot circle with the Dr. Cook's. And I'm a beginner and Hondo can be sort of spooky. So anyhow, it's working for me.


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## hyperkalemic4 (Dec 8, 2014)

I've known a lot of folks that tried them and the horses ran through them, but if it works for you great. You can not show in something like that.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The Dr Cook doesn't give you as much power as a mechanical hackamore if you've got a horse that tends to run away from you and get strong but we found it to work really well on a horse of ours that I bought one for after she had a mouth ulcer.
The leather one is way better than the synthetic which doesn't release very well if you put any pressure on it and I think that's what some horses find uncomfortable


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Because of the scissor action of these bridles be sure the horse doesn't have any sharp points on it's teeth. I've seen horses stick their nose in the air and pay little attention to the rider.


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## ToManyHorsesAndOnePony (Oct 16, 2013)

I use one on and off on my "crazy" paint mare. She lifts her head up in it but she does with everything. When we sold her as a 4 year old she was really well broken in. Kept her head level, would w/t/c, had a NICE whoa. And was coming up 1-5th in pleasure classes in a three piece rubber snaffle. Sold her. Just got her back reacently as a 15 yr old and they ruined and abused her. Shes covered with scars , will not accept any bit whatsoever. They had her in a chain gag type bit. Took me almost one year to get her riding and has just started riding WELL this winter. I can now put a snaffle on her, but she rides better and happier in the Dr Cook bitless. Now, my gelding gets confused and then angry in that bridle... I don't use it on him.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

hyperkalemic4 said:


> I've known a lot of folks that tried them and the horses ran through them, but if it works for you great. You can not show in something like that.


Give a horse enough fear and from what I've been told they will run through anything pain be dam*ed.

Hondo and I don't show, so that is not a problem. Hondo seems to pay more attention to what I'm doing and saying than to what bridle he happens to be wearing. He just hates the bit. And he does what I like, so I try to do what he likes. If I stuff a snaffle in his mouth he says ok and is fine with it. But he does make it clear that he does not like it at the outset and only submits to my insistence.

At first I could only use Cooks when riding solo. On roundups the ranch insisted I use a snaffle as they did not want an injury or wreck on their watch. But they have finally relented and I use only Cooks. I walk out into the field with Cooks to bring Hondo in. Don't even bother with a halter.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jaydee said:


> The leather one is way better than the synthetic which doesn't release very well if you put any pressure on it and I think that's what some horses find uncomfortable


I like the looks of the leather better and will eventually get one but I got the synthetic because I read that the release is quicker on it. Go figure. I guess when I get a leather one I'll do a test. But Hondo doesn't get or need any pressure so that part has turned out not to be a problem.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If your horse is responsive then the tightening and slowness of release isn't going to be a problem 
I wonder why they say the leather doesn't release as fast as the synthetic - I've used both and not found that to be the case


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jaydee said:


> I wonder why they say the leather doesn't release as fast as the synthetic - I've used both and not found that to be the case


Who knows. I don't even remember who they were. It seems I was reading reviews on Cook's. I probably just said, "Oh good, and they cost less too" and stopped reading.

For training I understand the quick release is ultra important. But in my case, Hondo is already trained.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

This is from 2004 with regards to showing in one, it seems to depend what discipline you are showing and where. Has this changed?

http://www.bitlessbridle.com/RULES_THE_BB.pdf


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

I think the use of these (Dr. C bridle) really "depends". 

I used one on a filly that had neurologic damage and a form of head shaking disease. A bit appeared to have ill effects on nerve endings and would trigger a response. She was a sweet girl, I knew her well, and I didn't fear "losing control" - so it was a reasonable "option".

But, such is not the case for a lot of young horses, and to forego the control _available_ that a bit provides when necessary is just increasing he chances of injury. If properly used, there is nothing "harsh" about a bit.

If a horse is well trained and a rider can't stay out of their mouth, then I think a bitless bridle is a must. If a horse is well trained and the rider prefers a bitless bridle, then it is great. In both cases, the horse is well trained...already.

I often ride my mare in an enclose with a halter only to "test" cues. I could easily do it with a bridle, too, but it is more fun w/o. I don't ride the bit, so there is nothing to be gained by doing this on the trail, and everything to be lost in an "emergency". So, I don't and wouldn't.


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## LoveDressage (Aug 10, 2011)

My horse has been bitless for a long time too. I don't have a Dr.Cook's bitless bridle because they were a little expensive and as I live in Portugal I had to pay a lot of shipping, so I bought another bridle similiar to Dr.Cook's on ebay, it's a cross under (the one in my avatar) and I must say that since I tried a side pull bitless bridle I haven't used it much more. It's a great bridle but I think the side pull works better for my horse. I think it pretty much depends on you and your horse and the type of work you want to do. I'm really happy with the sidepull!


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## 4hoofbeat (Jun 27, 2013)

I tried a Dr Cooks, on loan from a friend, my horse hated it. even with the barest of touches on the reins, it wouldn't release fast enough for his liking. I ended up finding someone who made home made nose bands to add to a bridlle to make them bitless, that i modified to my own liking and used that when we did ride. I guess it ended up more like a Hackamore


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## masatisan (Jan 12, 2009)

My horse did not like the cook because the noseband had to be jammed so tight around his jaw. He never ever wore a noseband so it was very uncomfortable for him. He also had the peculiar reaction of throwing his shoulder out which was something he did in other headgear, but never remotely to that extent. 

Dr cooks have a ton of contact on the face and it is very uncomfortable for a lot of horses. It acts on the poll, the cheek, the nose and the chin. Thats a lot to deal with! I dont see how one can ever achieve a solid contact with these because when the horse reaches for contact it keeps tightening all over their face, theres no way to "hold" it like there is with a bit. To me cooks are the "gag bit" of the bitless world, too much action without a reason for it.


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## SonnyDaze (Mar 17, 2015)

I use bitless but did not have the money to buy a Cooks. I have a metal "flower" that I can use on my english bridle that has holes I can adjust the reins and nose band on. It works great.


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## Sugar (Jan 30, 2015)

SonnyDaze said:


> I use bitless but did not have the money to buy a Cooks. I have a metal "flower" that I can use on my english bridle that has holes I can adjust the reins and nose band on. It works great.


I've been curious about those! Like this? I find them very interesting.


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## SonnyDaze (Mar 17, 2015)

Sugar said:


> I've been curious about those! Like this? I find them very interesting.




Yes, that is exactly what I'm using. There is a photo of it in my album if you want to check it out. I love it because I can adjust my reins if he's not getting enough pressure. I've used it on long trail rides and for my English riding lessons.


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## Luv equins (Oct 10, 2014)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8kIHCju4wA


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

The Dr. Cook style of bridle is just a fancy variation of the war bridle. These work on too many nerves and the release isn't fast enough. I had one in my shop on consignment so tried it on a horse. I didn't ride, just checked out how it worked. Horse didn't like it at all yet he's feather light in a halter.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Hondo hates a bit. He loves the Dr. Cooks which according to Google and Wiki have nothing in common with a War Bridle. He will resist taking a bit but actually sticks his nose in Dr. Cooks and helps we wiggle it up and into place.


War bridle
A modern war bridle is a thin cord run over the poll and then either through the mouth or under the upper lip, against the gumline of the upper incisors. In some cases, the lower loop goes around the horse's muzzle rather than under the lip. A loop is used so that it tightens on the horse's head when the end of the line is pulled. Sometimes a pulley is used to provide mechanical advantage. All designs tightens on both the poll and the lip or jaw. The war bridle is not intended for riding; it is used on the ground for management of an animal. The use of a war bridle is considered by some to be a last resort for handling an uncontrollable animal, but others claim its use constitutes animal cruelty.


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## gee50 (Dec 31, 2014)

I have never used one. When I went to bittless bridles I opted for A Monty Roberts Dully Haulter. They are about $30.00 cheaper. You can now buy generic side pull bridles like the MR for about 30 bucks. But the MR is way stronger for training. Although the Dr. C's bridle works slightly differently it's the same principal as any side pull. It takes the pressure and pain out of a horses mouth.

Bosal's and Hackamore's (cowboy halter knots included) also take the pressure and pain out of a horses mouth but can put pain and nerve damage across the top of the frontal sinus area.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

That's why there are so many different designs I reckon. I have a MR Dually, and a Cooks. I use Cooks.

That said, I think pain can be induced by either one with the idea to train a horse to respond to a painless cue whether it be from a bit or bitless. I use bitless not because of the pain issue but because Hondo resist taking the bit in his mouth but actually helps me put on Cooks. His responses are pretty much the same with either while riding.


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## budley95 (Aug 15, 2014)

Buddy loves his. I only use it occasionally though. I originally brought it when he bit his tongue after a horse kicked him in the chops and the swelling wouldnt allow a bit to comfortably fit in his mouth. I tend to use it when we're riding bareback. He just doesn't quite understand the concept of stop in it, especially jumping and hacking, which is what we mainly do! i love the dr cook, Bud hated the parelli halter, isnt keen on a hackamore or a scrawbrig or a sidepull either... I think it depends a lot on the horse and rider combination as to whether you get on with it or not 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## angelswave88 (Mar 18, 2015)

I bought my second TB 4 months ago. When I test rode him, he wore a D ring which was waaayyy to big for him. He leaned on the bit horribly. I got him home and began him in a copper snaffle. He seemed okay at first but then when watching videos of us riding- I realized how uncomfortable he looked. I tried loosening up my reins more, adding more contact, etc. Finally, I kind of got frustrated one day, and threw my Dr Cook BETA bridle on him. (I had bought it for my last mare but she wasn't thrilled with it). I took some time and worked on one rein stops, flexing... and I got on and I had a different horse!! Would stand quiet(er) at the mounting block, turned well, stopped even better. I tried him at a WTC a week later and he was perfect. I love it and we will never switch! 

I don't think they are for every horse, but I feel like people should try and be open to them. 

They do pose one problem and that is that the Dr Cook (or any other bitless bridle) is not allowed in dressage- which I find ridiculous. For our first schooling dressage show, I might ask if he would be allowed to wear his Dr Cook as it is a small local schooling show. I definitely feel they should be considered suitable tack in dressage and hunters. Hopefully those rules might be changed.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Hondo, there are a number of different versions of war bridle. The one the Indians used was a loop around the lower jaw. The only time it was bro't into play was as a means to hold the horse when he dismounted. Another version of the war bridle is a rope around the horse's nose and poll that tightens if the horse begins to fight. The version you described was sometimes used when floating a horse's teeth. The dr. cook styles operates more like the second one I've described, a method I've used on one horse only in a very long time. The reason they aren't used in dressage is the rider cannot achieve the finesse required in order to win. It takes years of training and a double bridle to achieve this. I've watched performances of well trained dressage horses doing a demo with a neck rope. It was nice, horse carried itself a little differently but it lacked finesse so to compete is wasting everyone's time.


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## Ktibb (Mar 24, 2010)

I've never used a Dr. Cooks, but I've used similar set-ups. My mare goes best bitless so that's all I use on her.

As others have said there really is no substitute for proper training and any device is only as harsh as the hands behind it.

This is my current set up (we strictly trail ride): Web Store - Rydem Bitless


Or the halter shown in my avatar


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## ChipsAhoy (Jul 1, 2012)

I've never used a Dr. Cooks. I was considering buying one for my gelding, but heard that a lot of horses dislike them. I currently use a sidepull which he loves.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

With the Dr Cook and Nurtural, where is the release? The weight of the rings apply continue pressure on the jaw and nose. With a bit, the horse learns to tip it's nose in to allow the poll to carry the weight. and not it's jaw.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Here's a bunch of FAQ's and answers on Dr. Cooks bitless. 

FAQs : The Bitless Bridle by Dr. Robert Cook, FRCVS, Ph.D., a humane alternative to the bit


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

We have a Dr Cook and used it on our Clyde X mare when she got fussy about a bit after having a nasty ulcer in her mouth - she went really well in it. The leather version 'releases' better than the synthetic one but unless you've got a horse that pulls against you that shouldn't be an issue
We didn't find it worked so well on our newest horse because she does get too strong but had stared to evade the bit very badly after being ridden in twisted snaffle before we bought her so we wanted to get her out of a bit altogether to break the habit - she's going really well in a Stubben Hackamore which is short shanked like the English one but seems to fit better


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Like any given bit, a Dr Cook will work well for some horses and not for others. If it was marketed as an option for folks to consider, I wouldn't object. But Dr Cook markets it as the humane alternative to cruel, pain-causing bits...and that does NOT jibe with my experiences. You can hurt a horse in a sidepull. I've done it. You can ride light in a curb. I've done it.

But a lot of what Cook says happens in a bit simply does not happen. It does not work off of pain. It does not interfere with breathing. It does not prevent a horse from carrying its head in a natural position. It can give clearer cues, just as something in your mouth would allow greater sensitivity than a rope tied around your head.

FWIW, I tried a crossunder bridle with Mia. She hated it. She was much happier in a curb bit. Folks need to keep an open mind and listen to their horse.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jaydee said:


> The leather version 'releases' better than the synthetic one but unless you've got a horse that pulls against you that shouldn't be an issue


There are two synthetic ones, the nylon and the beta. I have the nylon because it was cheaper for trying it but it has gotten sort of stiff and was thinking about a beta as they are really limber and are supposed to stay limber in cold weather. I have beta reins and they do seem to stay as limber in at least 10 degree weather.

I like the looks of the leather better but thought it might stiffen up also with age.

So anyhow, which synthetic do you have, the beta or nylon?

I just posted the link for the "other" side bsms. It is just puzzling to me how a horse would object to a Cooks if they didn't object to a halter, unless the chin strap was too tight. I leave mine looser than recommended so Hondo can get better jaw action. But lots of people say their horses don't like them.

Hondo was very cranky about the bit and if you've tried the Cooks you know it can be difficult to get the nose thought when tacking. Hondo actually tips his nose this way and that to help stuff get on right. 

Yep, once again, all horses are different. I wonder if a horse would object to it used as a halter? I have a halter attachment but I generally just clip the lead line it one of the stationary rings that the jaw strap runs through.

Until I got unseated riding bareback I was going out in the field with the Cooks and riding Hondo back to get saddled with it.

I really do believe that in untrained hands it does have a far less potential of injury than any other bridles, bitted or not. At least any that I'm familiar with which I'm sure doesn't include all there is.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> But a lot of what Cook says happens in a bit simply does not happen. It does not work off of pain.


Here are Dr. Cook's actual words: " All these methods, the bit method and the traditional bitless methods, are potentially painful."

And with this I do not believe you will disagree.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Hondo said:


> There are two synthetic ones, the nylon and the beta. I have the nylon because it was cheaper for trying it but it has gotten sort of stiff and was thinking about a beta as they are really limber and are supposed to stay limber in cold weather. I have beta reins and they do seem to stay as limber in at least 10 degree weather.
> 
> I like the looks of the leather better but thought it might stiffen up also with age.
> 
> ...


It isn't nylon so I guess it must be 'beta'!!! 
I know the leather slides open a lot better after being pulled tight as I tried one and I'd think the nylon would be the same
K didn't like the pressure from the Dr Cook at all and didn't seem to know how to 'give' to it whereas in the (mechanical) hackamore she did because it puts pressure on the same place as a halter does and because she's so good to lead even when she really really wants to come in I felt more confident about riding her in it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

It is certainly possible to cause a horse pain with either bit or bitless, although I agree that it is easier to cause pain in a bit. If I am starting a new rider, I'll cheerfully have them use a sidepull. The first time I cantered, I used a sidepull with Trooper so I wouldn't have to worry about screwing up his mouth.

My objection is to the 'bitless only' crowd - perhaps because I took that approach for my first 3 years. I was very reluctant to try a snaffle on my horses. Later, I was very reluctant to try a curb bit on Mia - to the point I seriously thought about getting rid of her. 

But she took to a curb bit like she was born in one. Teaching her to use a curb was the easiest thing I've ever tried with a horse. After all the horror stories I had heard, and all the predictions about how she would run thru the curb bit...it was like night to day. Three rides later, she would 'spook in place'. She never totally quit spooking, but I'd much rather have a horse hop sideways than start spinning and trying to run off in blind panic!

She was still a handful. She had a prima donna personality. And she would still sometimes toss in a tight 360 for no known reason. But she never ran off with me again. And when she was in a listening mood, she would respond to small movements of my hand to the left/right, up/down, forward/back. Meanwhile, obedient little Trooper preferred a bit because it made things clearer for him. He did not rebel against bitless, but he acts happier with a bit - any bit.

My objection is to folks saying bits cause nervousness or work thru causing pain. I had a nervous horse who got much worse during 3 years of bitless riding. I dug a deep hole that we were still filling in 4 years later - because I was listening to people when I should have been listening to my horse. Bitless should be a trick in one's bag of tricks, but it should not be the only trick in the bag!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jaydee said:


> It isn't nylon so I guess it must be 'beta'!!!
> I know the leather slides open a lot better after being pulled tight as I tried one and I'd think the nylon would be the same


Thanks. I'm now thinking leather. Actually, release is not that big of a deal with me as Hondo never gets pulled anyhow. It's all neck reining. I mentioned in one post that I actually got the reins crossed under his chin once and rode about an hour or so that way before I noticed. And I only noticed because I saw it, no difference in control that I noticed.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> she would respond to small movements of my hand to the left/right, up/down, forward/back.


Well, Hondo does this as well and equally as well with Cooks or a snaffle. Once the snaffle is on and riding, I don't notice the difference. He just said he didn't want it so I listened.

At first the ranch would not allow me to use the bitless in rounding up cattle. Ain't safe! Ain't had no wrecks on my watch and don't aim to start. Forgot to use the snaffle a couple of times and we were in a hurry. Had to demonstrate a left right bend. They've seen me cutting cattle with it and have finally relented.

As far as listening to the horse and pain goes though, everyone that I've read that claims to know such things says a horse is hard wired to mask pain so predators do not single them out as an injured member.

Even humans talking to one another fail to understand, so how much easier would it be to misunderstand a horse.

Supposedly 65 horse skulls in some museum or something were examined and 58 had bone spurs in the...........place where the bit goes, forget the name at the moment.

But all that said, I can certainly envision how dressage riders and the like that need to make very very precise communications to a horse could benefit from the bit for certain. I'm thinking Dr. Cook might argue with that also but I do have to remember that he surely get's a royalty off each and everyone.

Bottom line, I think Hondo likes it, so I like it. May try a side pull or others someday. I'm expecting he will like anything except a bit. But that's Hondo.

Before I go, I do wanna stress once again that proper adjustment of the Cook's is a big deal. The stationary rings need to be at least 1 1/2 to 2 inches above the corner of the mouth. If placed down where a bit would go, the nose band will be way to low and possibly interfere with breathing on put prerssure right on the end of that nose bone. Very important as with the chin strap adjustment.

If a horse doesn't throw a fit in a halter, just doesn't seem(TO ME) they should in a properly adjusted Cook's.

Bottom line 2, I'm very new and just trying to stimulate thought.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If one follows the path of the straps of the Dr. Cook type headstalls as soon as the rider puts pressure on the rein, there's a scissoring action around the jaw and up over the poll. Explain to me how this wouldn't be painful for the horse. Horse's are stoic and don't always let us know that pain is an issue. But don't assume there's no pain issue.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Saddlebag said:


> But don't assume there's no pain issue.


Very very good advice! But don't assume that I assumed there's no pain, because I did not.

I have read many of the papers by Dr. Cook, Ph. D. in Veterinarian Science and Fellow of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. Just because he has a bunch of letters behind and in front of his name, it doesn't make him infallible, and what he says must be read and considered with critical thought.

He claims in more than one place that the Cooks crossunder is incapable of causing pain. From what I've read of his back up research, I happen to be persuaded that he knows what he is talking about.

If you'd like to know something about him and the development of the crossunder that goes back to 1894 there's some information here:

Q&A with Dr. Robert Cook, Creator of the ‘Dr. Cook Bitless Bridle’ (Part 1) | The Naturally Healthy Horse

Part 2 and 3 follow


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Interesting discussion, I would like to add this. It should be easy to rig up one of these just to see if it works for your horse before you spend the big bucks. I work in biothane, and made one of these for a friend years ago. And yes, nylon will get stiff. Probably better to go with the biothane or leather.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Part 2: Q&A with Dr. Robert Cook, Creator of ‘Dr. Cook’s Bitless Bridle’ (Part 2) | The Naturally Healthy Horse


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Not assuming............


"58 controlled experiments were carried out between 2002 and 2008, in which riders compared the ridden behavior of a horse in a bitted bridle with that in a crossunder bitless bridle. Using a checklist of 82 possible signs of pain and distress, the sign most frequently eliminated by removing the bit was of a horse that “hates the bit” i.e., chews on the bit. All horses showed markedly fewer signs of pain and distress when bitless. The summated numbers were bitted 1643 and bitless 202, an overall improvement of 88%. The median number of pain and distress signs that each horse exhibited when bitted was 24 – when bitless 1."


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

OOFF! Just skimmed part of that Hondo - Marketing is what it is. Not that I have a problem with marketing.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

whisperbaby22 said:


> Interesting discussion, I would like to add this. It should be easy to rig up one of these just to see if it works for your horse before you spend the big bucks. I work in biothane, and made one of these for a friend years ago. And yes, nylon will get stiff. Probably better to go with the biothane or leather.


Yes, it should be easy to rig one up IF! you know what you are doing and know where the nose strap should be relative to the mouth and nose bone and how wide it should be and how tight the nose band should be. These things have been worked with since 1894 and if making a wheel, previous wheel makers and what they learned should be consulted, me thinks.

Like standing on the shoulders of giants, or something akin.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

whisperbaby22 said:


> OOFF! Just skimmed part of that Hondo - Marketing is what it is. Not that I have a problem with marketing.


Maybe maybe not. The guy is 84 or something and has done a lot of surgery and written about stuff long before he ever became an advocate of the crossunder. I think his advocacy came after his surgeon experiences. If he truly believes what he says, which I believe he does, then how else would he be and advocate for the horse?


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

I think that most of the responses here have basically said, for some horses it works, for some it does not. I have no problem with people making a living selling bridles. But I repeat that rigging one up to see if it works for your horse can help a person decide whether or not to buy one.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Not assuming............
> 
> 
> "58 controlled experiments were carried out between 2002 and 2008, in which riders compared the ridden behavior of a horse in a bitted bridle with that in a crossunder bitless bridle. Using a checklist of 82 possible signs of pain and distress, the sign most frequently eliminated by removing the bit was of a horse that “hates the bit” i.e., chews on the bit. All horses showed markedly fewer signs of pain and distress when bitless. The summated numbers were bitted 1643 and bitless 202, an overall improvement of 88%. The median number of pain and distress signs that each horse exhibited when bitted was 24 – when bitless 1."


Can you say "biased"? I knew you could!

My horses don't chew on their bits. Mia used to play with a copper roller when she felt nervous, but gave it up. They don't fling their heads. They don't gape their mouths. They go around like this in a curb bit:










And like this in a snaffle:










Both pictures of Mia, who was quite capable of making her opinion known - on everything!

"He claims in more than one place that the Cooks crossunder is incapable of causing pain. From what I've read of his back up research, I happen to be persuaded that he knows what he is talking about."

More horse pucky! I tried a cross-under, and my horse reacted the way many others say their horses reacted: she did NOT like getting her head squeezed. And anyone who tightens a strap under a horse's jaw ought to be able to figure out you CAN cause pain there!

I've caused my horse pain in a sidepull, so I darn well know a Dr Cook can cause pain.

"Supposedly 65 horse skulls in some museum or something were examined and 58 had bone spurs in the...........place where the bit goes, forget the name at the moment."

Depends on how they are ridden. If a horse is ridden like this:










You will get very different results from a horse ridden like Mia above. That is why one cannot separate the bit from how it is used.

Nor is it stoicism. The idea of Mia accepting a painful bit stoically is laughable to anyone who knew her. I thank God I got her for my first horse because it was her having an opinion on everything, freely expressed, that captivated me.

The normal goal in using a western curb is to use the bit primarily for signal. When balanced correctly, with the neutral position allowing the weight of the reins to balance under the mouthpiece with zero rotation, the shanks need to rotate 45-60 deg before any pressure is applied to the mouth. You cannot take the slack out of the reins with a bit like that without having the curb strap tighten first.

Used by someone who doesn't snatch on the reins, the horse soon learns it is easier to obey while the shanks are rotating but before pressure is applied - when the rotating shanks and mouthpiece provides the horse with a signal of what the rider wants. Thus the horse learns to be ridden in a western curb without pressure.

I sometimes make Mia sound like a nightmare horse. In reality, I kept her for 7 years because she was sweet. Once she figured it out, we could go entire rides without ever getting the slack out of the reins. Or not. Her choice. The shadow self portrait was accurate enough of much of our riding - the bit functioning to hold the far end of the reins and not much else.

When I rode Mia in a snaffle, most of the times I supported the weight of the reins with my thumb and index finger. Cues were given by placing my pinkie on the rein and moving my pinkie finger. On her good days, that was all it took. She had more good days than bad, too!

I'll not tell anyone they must use a bit. But the idea that everyone who uses a bit is dominating their horse thru pain is ridiculous. That is why I dislike Dr Cook. He's toned some of his stuff down lately, but he's long maintained that any bit is a sign of cruelty and dominating a horse thru pain - and that is stupid, no matter how many letters he attaches to his name!

From Dr Cook:

"During much of the time when being ridden, the horse’s bit lies on bone" - not true. He seems to forget horses have tongues.

"The traditional bitless bridles such as the hackamores, bosals and sidepulls, are – like the bit - pain-based and are limited in the signals they can communicate." They are not pain-based, and they can communicate BETTER than something wrapped around the head.

"Cruelty is defined as the infliction of avoidable pain (Morton 1993, Cook et al 2006). Now that an acceptable and preferable alternative to the bit is available, the pain of a bit is avoidable. It follows that the bit method should now be reclassified as cruel..." Again, bits do not work thru pain. My horses show no signs of suffering. My prima donna mare disliked some bits (including almost all fat bits), but went very willingly in others.

"Nevertheless, there will be some in the horse world who would question its applicability to the horse’s bit. They might argue that the bit is no more cruel than a cutthroat razor is dangerous and that it depends on how the bit is used. When used by a master horseman with the hands of a neurosurgeon and a seat that is infallibly independent, I might concede that a bit could be used without inflicting pain. But how many such masters are there and how long did they have to practice before they gained that mastery?"

Sorry, Dr Cook, but I'm not a master and my hands are not those of a neurosurgeon. But my horses did NOT like the cross-under bridles, and seem very content in their bits...used by MY hands. Food for thought.

"Horses are made nervous and are frightened by having painful metal rods placed in their sensitive mouths. When one or more reins are attached to one or more rods, this makes it far too easy for riders, albeit unintentionally, to apply highly focused pressures to the hard and soft tissues of the mouth. As the mouthpieces of bits are circular and the bars of the mouth are knife edges..."

More pucky. If he is that hamfisted with his horses, then he is welcome to come by and visit mine. He'll find all my horses have tongues, and the bits rest on the tongues.

Cook's quotes are from here:

http://www.bitlessbridle.com/Tradition or Science.pdf


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

whisperbaby22 said:


> But I repeat that rigging one up to see if it works for your horse can help a person decide whether or not to buy one.


I repeat, yes, providing it is rigged properly. Otherwise the results could lead to incorrect conclusions.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Thanks bsms, I am one that values controversy for it's educational value provided the subject remains the target and not the participants.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on the following. For myself, I am not versed in the physiology of a horses breathing and cannot comment. It does sound persuasive however, but I would need to study the same subject from at least a second or more source for confirmation.

Begin paste:

d) Physiological damage: The bit triggers digestive responses when what are needed in the exercising horse are respiratory, cardiovascular and musculo-skeletal responses. Essentially, it triggers a conflict between eating and exercising. The physiological requirements for eating include a head down position, quiet breathing, an open mouth, tongue and jaw movement, salivation and swallowing. For exercising, the requirements include a raised head, rapid breathing, sealed lips, a closed mouth, an immobile tongue and jaw, a relatively dry mouth and no swallowing. A young horse at liberty in a field, interchanging between grazing and playing, can switch between these two requirements effortlessly and smoothly. Too often, the same horse when bitted and ridden presents a very different picture. Its lips are parted by the bit and its mouth may, at intervals, be frankly open. Tongue and jaw movements may be prominent and salivation may be so effusive that saliva drools from the mouth and foams. As a result, breathing is made difficult and the intake of oxygen reduced, triggering a cascade of problems affecting the lungs, legs and heart.

The anatomical ‘damage’ in the throat that sets all this in motion can be best understood with the help of the diagram in Fig. 8. The bit breaks what should be an airtight-seal at the lips and a very necessary oral vacuum is eliminated (Figs 9-11). The head and neck may be flexed, so the soft walls of the throat are flaccid. Under these conditions, aggravated by tongue and jaw movement and even by actual swallowing reflexes, the soft palate gets sucked upwards during rapid inhalation and obstructs the throat (Fig. 11b). This, in my opinion, is the cause of dorsal displacement of the soft palate (DDSP), a physiological scourge of the bitted horse. Again, in my opinion, DDSP is the cause of bleeding from the lungs, the so-called exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage (EIPH) better named as negative pressure pulmonary edema (NPPE). Together, DDSP and NPPE, these two side effects of the bit, represent a multimillion dollar problem for the racing industry, currently unsolved by Salix. To read my article, “What causes soft palate problems and bleeding in racehorses?: The answer is on the tip of the horse’s tongue” click here and click also on the two links at the end of this post.










Fig. 8: Showing how the soft palate and cartilages of the voice box act as switch plates allowing the throat to be configured for either exercising or eating (rapid breathing or swallowing). To simplify the diagram for the purpose of emphasising the changes in the throat, air space is shown in the mouth, the oral part of the throat and the esophagus (gullet). This space is severely limited when grazing and eliminated when exercising (see Figs 9 – 11)

Key:

AC = arytenoid cartilages (‘flappers’) of the voice box (larynx)

E = epiglottis

LP = laryngopharynx (the food channels on each side of the voice box that enable a horse to graze yet still breathe quietly)

NP = nasopharynx (the respiratory part of the throat)

OI = ostium intrapharyngium (a ‘button-hole’ in the soft palate, into which the voice box fits like a grommet except when swallowing)

OP = oropharynx (the oral part of the throat)

SP = soft palate










Fig.9. Anatomy of the head, showing the configuration of the throat for quiet breathing. The throat serves two masters, breathing and swallowing. For breathing, the size of the respiratory part of the throat (nasopharynx) is maximised at the expense of the oral part of the throat (oropharynx). The double-ended arrow, depicting the airway, has its front end in the throat and its back end in the voice box (larynx).










Fig, 10. The same diagram as Fig. 9 but showing the sealed lips that, after a swallow, enable the running horse when bitless to create a vacuum in those compartments shown in red.










Fig. 11a. Normal configuration of the throat for running in a horse at liberty. The poll is extended, the throat is stretched, and the soft palate is ‘vacuum-packed’ on the root of the tongue and around the voice box. There is an airtight seal at the lips and between the two parts of the throat.










Fig. 11b. Abnormal configuration of the throat when running in a bitted bridle. The bit (yellow dot) has broken the lip seal, allowing air to enter the oral part of the throat. The soft palate is unstable and, in this diagram, is shown in an elevated position that is only appropriate to a phase of swallowing. The airway is severely obstructed at the junction of nasal cavity and throat (red dots).

Apart from the above conflict between eating and exercising there is another major conflict in the bitted horse between breathing and striding. At liberty, the cantering horse takes one stride for every breath. There is a synchrony between the two, called respiratory-locomotory coupling. . But when a bit interferes with breathing this synchrony can be lost. From 82 signs of pain and distress eliminated by removing the bit in the controlled experiment cited above, 34 (41%) were signs that in one way or another impacted a horse’s stride and way of going. The signs ranged from the regrettable, e.g., lack of finesse and reluctance to change leads) to downright dangerous, e.g., stumbling, freezing, bucking, rearing and bolting.

The 82 questions on which the above experiment was based did not include the catastrophic accidents that occur on the racetrack as the result of bit-induced shortage of breath and premature fatigue. Bleeding from the lungs and the appearance of blood at the nostrils or in the windpipe is only the outward and visible sign of a much more serious inward disaster. Bit-induced asphyxia causes massive waterlogging of the lung (pulmonary edema). That red blood cells and edema fluid gets sucked into the small airways of the lung is only one effect of this problem. Not only is a racehorse unable to obtain all the oxygen it needs for running due to the obstruction in its throat but also, because the lungs become waterlogged, it is unable to fully absorb the oxygen it does get. So a racehorse builds up an oxygen debt and is unable to prevent a build-up of carbon dioxide. The heart muscle can no longer circulate fully oxygenated blood to the muscles of the legs, nor to the muscles or respiration, and may even be short of oxygen itself. Adding insult to injury, the heart has to work harder to pump blood around the body to its lungs and legs because of the resistance to circulation imposed by congestion in its lungs. Likewise the work of breathing is increased for the same reason, as the lungs are no longer compliant. Little wonder that a ‘bleeder’ (99% of racehorses are affected to varying degrees) has difficulty in breathing and striding. Premature fatigue, exhaustion, breakdowns, falls, and fractures may follow. The end result of bit damage can be sudden death or euthanasia.

To sum up, the bit damages the digestive, respiratory, nervous, cardiovascular and musculo-skeletal systems.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Yes Hondo, I skimmed all that, but it boils down to: Does the cross under bridle (Dr. Cook's or one of the others) work for the individual horse or not? Doubtless, all the above mentioned stuff affects some horses, not others. If bits were so injurious to horses, why do so many go well in them? My old horse does well in any kind of bit I've ever put him in, so I change out frequently so that no one area on head or mouth gets overused. Right now I have a snaffle, grazing curb and two mechanical hackamores and switch around regularly.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Well, what it all boils down to for me in terms of the above paste, having read the paste slowly and thoroughly, is: Does the bit interfere with the proper breathing of the horse or not? 

As far as a Cook's reported as working or not working for an individual poster's horse would be dependent on that posters understanding of the proper adjustment. The Cook bridle was sort of confusing to me when I first got it and being new at the time to saddle horses (still am actually) I was not aware of things about the horses nose that I am now aware of.

My mind is open, I think, and simply searching for what the facts really are.

There are some other products and bits that claim to reduce or prevent the "palate flipping" described in Dr. Cook's article. So others are looking at this besides Dr. Cook. But I'm still looking and researching.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Thanks bsms, I am one that values controversy for it's educational value provided the subject remains the target and not the participants.
> 
> I'd be interested in your thoughts on the following...


"It has been suggested that the presence of a bit reflexly increases salivation but, at the same time, interferes with the horse's ability to swallow. The objective of this study was to compare swallowing frequency in 12 horses exercising at canter while wearing a head collar, a bitless bridle, a jointed snaffle bit and a Myler correctional-ported barrel bit. Laryngeal movements were recorded videoendoscopically as the horses cantered (8 m s−1) on a high speed treadmill, with the use of side reins to flex the poll. Swallowing was stimulated artificially by infusion of sterile water at a constant rate of 5 ml min−1 through a cannula in the endoscope's biopsy port. The results showed large differences in swallowing frequency between horses. Swallowing frequency was lower for the Myler snaffle than for the other conditions (_P_<0.05). It is concluded that the presence of a bit does not preclude swallowing during exercise at canter with the poll in a flexed position, but certain types of bits may be associated with a reduction in swallowing frequency."

Equine and Comparative Exercise Physiology - Effects of different bits and bridles on frequency of induced swallowing in cantering horses - Cambridge Journals Online

There was at least one study I saw that indicated trying to canter or gallop with a flexed poll (as in the study above) interfered with breathing and swallowing. I don't flex my horse's poll at speed. Or at walks, most of the time...

There is a long discussion of equine breathing available here:

https://books.google.com/books?hl=e...=onepage&q=horse bit effect breathing&f=false

Some time ago I found a study that measured breathing with and without a bit, and IIRC it found no difference. I did not bookmark it and could not find it quickly today.

In any case, I find the idea that bits prevent a horse from breathing well while running to be nonsensical. Cook needs to remember the real world:








​ 
Cook says, "_The bit (yellow dot) has broken the lip seal, allowing air to enter the oral part of the throat_." I've never seen any sign a bit breaks the lip seal or prevents a horse from running hard and fast. His claim otherwise is part of his simplistic approach to what happens, such as his forgetting that horses have tongues...

This was Mia & I, just before Mia switched to a gallop so she could 'race' Trooper:








​ 
No open mouth there, either. Click on pictures to enlarge.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Hondo said:


> Thanks. I'm now thinking leather. Actually, release is not that big of a deal with me as Hondo never gets pulled anyhow. It's all neck reining. I mentioned in one post that I actually got the reins crossed under his chin once and rode about an hour or so that way before I noticed. And I only noticed because I saw it, no difference in control that I noticed.


I 'direct rein' because we only ride English but my horses turn to leg and hand cues so need very little rein pressure to turn - the horse the Dr Cook failed on had learnt to get very strong and would run off with you if she got a chance and the squeezing action seemed to make her worse
How does it work for you when Hondo does his spook thing? Though it sounds as if he just jumps on the spot or turns around rather than try to take hold and bolt away


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jaydee said:


> How does it work for you when Hondo does his spook thing? Though it sounds as if he just jumps on the spot or turns around rather than try to take hold and bolt away


To tell the truth, I haven't ever gotten the chance to use Cook's on the spin and bolt, except perhaps to hold on with, that I know you're not SUPPOSED to do. It's always over so fast.

The one time I did get to use the Cook's for an extended period during repeated suggestions, (as harold let's get outta here we're gonna die), was when his herd who we were riding past at some distance got spooked and stampeded by us within 10 feet on each side or closer. Could not swear to what I did with the reins at that time but I did a lot of voice stuff. One handed so I likely did a bit of neck reining. I have estimated we stayed within a 10 foot diameter circle until the herd was gone and grazing, at which time we nervously rode over and joined them.

So that gives me a "bit" of confidence is the setup I'm using.

The breathing article I pasted is of interest to me not just for the Cook's but to bitless in general. I know that Dr. Cook says a side pull is designed around pain because of the narrow nose piece, but when I read that I did wonder why the nose piece couldn't simply be made wider.

I have read in a lot of places that the mechanical hackamores are dangerous in that a horse can be severely injured even accidentally in a bolt with too much pull on the reins.

I just can't get past the concept that if a horse knows what is being asked of it and chooses not to respond as requested, it just seems that training is what is needed first.

As far as the horse holding it's mouth open with a bit, I do not believe that Dr. Cook claimed that to necessarily be the case. Without re-reading I remember him talking about the air tight seal being broken and ANY air, no matter how small the amount, entering the oral cavity would cause a working of the flap in the back of the throat.

I'm just reading and evaluating everything I read. Being new, I would venture that on a scale of 1-100 I am probably one of the very most opened minded members on this forum.

Well, until it comes to hoof care, which I am getting very close to becoming opinionated about


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...I just can't get past the concept that if a horse knows what is being asked of it and chooses not to respond as requested, it just seems that training is what is needed first.
> 
> As far as the horse holding it's mouth open with a bit, I do not believe that Dr. Cook claimed that to necessarily be the case. Without re-reading I remember him talking about the air tight seal being broken...


A horse who is choosing not to comply needs training, but it also needs to have a reason to comply - thus a negative consequence. If you want your horse to bend its neck and head to the left, and it does not want to, which will provide the most negative consequence to disobedience - a D-ring snaffle or a wide, padded strap around the horse's head?

Initially, the bit causes the most discomfort, making it easier to train a horse to give its head than is true in a sidepull. But the goal is to train a horse to give to virtually any pressure as a matter of unthinking habit.

I needed to train Mia to stop when excited. With a sidepull, I could forget about it - she wasn't going to stop until she felt like it. A snaffle was more effective at providing a negative consequence, until she discovered she could stretch out her head and let the bit rest against the molars - providing her own release. With a curb, the pressure would continue to be applied against the bars and tongue until *I* gave the release, making it a good training tool. Once she formed a habit of stopping, she would also do so in a snaffle...unless she got really excited.

But once she learned, I could ride her in a curb and just rotate my wrist slightly. The shanks of the bit would move, no pressure would be applied to the tongue and bars (yet)...and she could choose to obey then and not wait until pressure was applied. That meant I could ride her without pressure, in part because she knew that further resistance was futile.

As for breaking the seal...my horses have plenty of lip. Their seal is fine unless they choose to break it. :wink: I've also never had to worry about my horses being unwilling to go fast. It is slowing them that has always been a challenge.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A horse needs to understand how to give to pressure on the ground before you do it from the saddle - which is why we opted to try the Stubben hackamore on K- To start with she was still in 'bit' mode when asked to slow down and stuck her head in the air and even began opening her mouth as if to avoid the bit - pure habit but after a few rides she realized there was nothing going on her mouth and began to relax.
So we've now gone from a horse that you couldn't let go of that was head flipping to one that will walk around on a loose rein with its head by the floor even over poles on the ground
You do what works for the horse


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I'm a pretty firm believer that people should use whatever work on their horse.

That said, I'm seeing huge amounts of biases in some of the articles posted. Eeep...


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> Can you say "biased"? I knew you could!


Can you say "confirmation bias"? 



bsms said:


> A horse who is choosing not to comply needs training, but it also needs to have a reason to comply - thus a negative consequence. If you want your horse to bend its neck and head to the left, and it does not want to, which will provide the most negative consequence to disobedience - a D-ring snaffle or a wide, padded strap around the horse's head?
> 
> Initially, the bit causes the most discomfort, making it easier to train a horse to give its head than is true in a sidepull. But the goal is to train a horse to give to virtually any pressure as a matter of unthinking habit.


Dr. Cook says bits cause pain *OR* the threat of pain. You seem to agree, with your goal to make the horse finally comply with just the slightest hint of a threat of pain. To me, that's still fear based training which I categorically reject.

And in terms of negative consequence, or more correctly put in terms of pain as the negative consequence, positive punishment, as the behaviorist term it.

When I very first arrived at this ranch I was almost unseated (from the ranch) when being shown how to train horses in the round pen. And at one point I was told, he's doing this because he knows if he doesn't I will hit him.

Finally, exasperated I said flat out, "I can't do this" and expected that to have ended any farther association with the ranch where I am.

The next morning the person who had been working with me walked directly to me and said, " I respect your desire to find an easier way to work with horses". And walked away. There has been no farther discussion about or work in the round pen, with me.

As I believe I mentioned, I do have James Fillis, Breaking and Riding, in my documents file. And I noted early on that he flat out said that a horse is trained with rewards and punishment. Period.

I categorically reject that notion and other things he claims about the horse. I know from your tag line and the times you have mentioned him that he is a mentor of sorts to you, and that may be the crux of our associated disagreements. I'm not going to say anything bad about him nor say I think he is stupid, because I do not.

And I realize that he wrote in a time when horses were the primary mode of transportation and burden and respect that. But there are other authors from that time also who do not appear to agree with all that he says.

But it is my belief, (at this time), that many of the methods used in the past were as a result of urgency with no thought of bonding or such. In fact, Fillis seems to go to great lengths to say there is no such thing as human/horse bonding. Or at least that was my read.

And so it is that I'm beginning to believe that the crux of our disagreements comes down to differing "World Views" with regard to animals in general and horses in particular.

And differences based on differing world views can be almost impossible to resolve.

But there is one binding element of which I am certain, we both love to ride our horses to which no other activity remotely compares.

I did read the link on horse breathing. Admit to not understanding much of it. No mention of bits. Thought I'd read it all until I found the price used to be $250!

Also remembered, Hondo is a food-a-holic. Wants to eat at every stop. But after severe climbs and breathing heavily, he will not eat. This has worried me until his breathing finally subsides and he begins eating again. (reason i bought a heart rate monitor for him) And I tried breathing and swallowing. Can't do it. When using a snaffle I bought a dog bone snaffle with a copper turn thingie that was supposed to help him salivate and avoid a dry mouth. Yes, probably marketing but your YouTube guru seems to agree about the need to salivate with a bit.

But now I wonder, does salivating cause swallowing which impedes breathing?

Ah well, as said, differing world views.

And before I forget, "I'm right, you are wrong"! :clap:


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Zexious said:


> I'm a pretty firm believer that people should use whatever work on their horse.
> 
> That said, I'm seeing huge amounts of biases in some of the articles posted. Eeep...


Well, we are all biased to our beliefs. If we didn't think what we thought was correct, well, we would probably think something else, wouldn't we?

The idea of using what ever works on their horse is appealing.

Howsumever, there is a horse on this ranch that was severely abused by it's previous owner. That is known as said previous owner worked on this ranch for 10 years. It was said, "I would not want to be a horse and not do as X demanded".

That said, this horse is the most compliant horse on the ranch once under halter/bridle. And he is totally safe with any child under ANY circumstances. That is the main reason the ranch took him in for his retirement. He is just there for visiting children.

I tried to pet him for a year, unsuccessfully. Yet four of my young grand children petted him no problem. He followed them for more.

This horse was ridden by what most say is the best and most daring cowboy in at least a 30 mile radius. Cody was going to slaughter for pennies. The cowboy, a 300 pounder, decided he'd buy him and if he didn't comply he'd sell him for what he paid for him.

Cody complied. Cody served for many years. The training worked.

Cody has the saddest eyes of any horse on the ranch. He wants you to approach him but he simply can't. My heart and soul go out to him. I am so glad he can interact with kids.

When the recent new foal, Sage Heart, was born, Cody just stayed outside the field with Sage and mom. Finally the ranch started feeding him pellets as he would not leave to go graze on the lush and abundant grass.

And now Cody is in with mom and Sage. He just hangs around and enjoys. The colt is now allowed by mom to go nuzzle him. It makes my heart leap to see this.

So while what works for a horse is appealing at first glance, what worked for Cody was not so appealing.

Thank you ranch for giving Cody a deserved home for his retirement!!!!!!!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...Dr. Cook says bits cause pain *OR* the threat of pain. You seem to agree, with your goal to make the horse finally comply with just the slightest hint of a threat of pain. To me, that's still fear based training which I categorically reject...
> 
> ...As I believe I mentioned, I do have James Fillis, Breaking and Riding, in my documents file. And I noted early on that he flat out said that a horse is trained with rewards and punishment. Period.
> 
> I categorically reject that notion and other things he claims about the horse...


When you get on a horse and he refuses to move forward, what do you do?

If your horse decides to go right when you want to go left, and you give him the cue to go left and he continues right, what do you do?

Why would any horse flex his neck left in response to a finger of pressure, unless he was trained to do so? And what does that training consist of?

Horses do not obey due to a bond. Nor does a bond teach them what a cue means. Hondo did not learn the meaning of any cue via a bond. Long term, only the most submissive of horses will obey a human if there are no possible negative outcomes. Their herd structure is based on kicks and bites, not kisses and loves.

It is also based on fairness and proportionate behavior. Most will obey a bully horse out of fear, but prefer a leader type horse who is fair and proportionate in his/her punishments - but they expect punishment for wrong behavior.

Mia was an unusual horse. Before I owned her, she was bought and put into a pasture with 2 geldings, both much bigger than her. The geldings insisted she obey...and Mia refused. After 8 weeks, she was returned. She had been bitten many times and was at least 100 lbs lighter, but every day was a new day & new fight. That is why, in the years after I first got her, she was terrified of strange horses. We spent years getting over that hurdle.

So no, I did not beat her into submission. If a couple of big geldings could not, I sure couldn't. But she was still trained with pressure and release, only it needed to be FAIR pressure - which she would accept. She was also the dominant horse of our three, but she was FAIR in handing out punishments. And the other two adored her. They wanted to be near her. They trusted her. Tough AND fair. Natural horsemanship.

In your example of Cody, you describe the reaction of most horses to a "bully horse". Mia, OTOH, would have gone down fighting. But all the horses I've met respond very well to tough (*but fair*) punishment and reward. And riders like Chamberlin and Fillis, both of whom would not hesitate to punish, also insisted it must be fair.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> When you get on a horse and he refuses to move forward, what do you do?
> 
> If your horse decides to go right when you want to go left, and you give him the cue to go left and he continues right, what do you do?


Tie him down and beat him into submission. Guaranteed to work every time.

As mentioned, differing world views. I do not subscribe to whats-his-name on dogs either. Everybody has always exclaimed over my dogs.

Sure, punishment works. Has worked for thousand of years. Works on people too. Comes somewhere under avoidance therapy.

Dogs want to please. Don't know that horses want exactly to please as do dogs, but if bonded, I am more and more impressed that they wish to follow and do as asked without the threat of punishment, if done properly.

I have just never been convinced that the dog perceives us a pack member nor the horse as a herd member. I am in fact convinced otherwise.

Again, different world views, differing planets even.

But remember, we both like horses.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo, here is alink with the pros and cons of bitlless.
Dr cook did his study, regarding the negative effect of bits , on horses ridden with strong and constant bit pressure (polo horses and race horses)
Why would a horse object to a Dr cook bittless brilde, if use to a halter
-well some horse do not like that constant pressure, plus there are some pretty sensitive nerves,, covered with little flesh, that run under the jaw
Certainly, bittless is more forgiving, as as a rider that does not have the feel to use a bit correctly, but you do loose some communication and finesse
Anyway, here is a link on pros and cons of bittless
Bitless: A New Breed of Bridle | TheHorse.com


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_Tie him down and beat him into submission. Guaranteed to work every time._"

Not with Mia. She fought the geldings for 2 months and was still fighting. But it will work with most horses, if all you want is minimal compliance. But of course, it also has no relationship to what I said works.

Horses want a strong leader, but "strong" comes before "leader" with horses. If you are not strong enough to impose your will, then you are not strong enough to protect them. "Weak but fair" will get you nowhere with horses. Doesn't get you far with dogs or people, either.

I'm not suggesting anyone bully their horse, but there is a huge difference - to a horse, at least - between bullying and insisting on standards.

With bits: you can intimidate many horses thru fear of pain using a bit. That is why many horses go behind the bit, or resort to other techniques to avoid the bit. If you use the bit for pain, your results will suck. The statement that a horse can run thru any bit, no matter how harsh, is true - but they have to be trained to respond that way.

But used to set limits, or to apply pressure that the horse will seek to release? That is how the Dr Cook Bitless Bridle works too. That is why it has a cross-under strap - so you can apply pressure and even pain to the horse's jaw, so that the horse will seek relief from that pressure/pain by complying. If the horse is one that accepts pain/discomfort there, then it is an effective bitless bridle.

Left to their own desires, horses would happily ignore humans and eat and graze and lounge around until they died of fatness. I think many horses also enjoy developing a working relationship with humans. There were times I could almost hear Mia say, "_Oooooohh, what are we going to do today?_" The new guy, Bandit, opened up about a 100-125 yard lead on the other horses our last ride, and stayed way out ahead, ears forward. With work, I think he'll say, "_Going out to stretch my legs? Gotcha_!" But if I am not willing to impose my will on them, they are not going to trust me to keep them safe.

This is what the Italian Cavalry School trained their horses to do. If the horse and rider had the confidence to do this, they were ready:










And no, they didn't get to that level of mutual confidence by offering carrots....:wink:​


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Well, what it all boils down to for me in terms of the above paste, having read the paste slowly and thoroughly, is: Does the bit interfere with the proper breathing of the horse or not?
> 
> As far as a Cook's reported as working or not working for an individual poster's horse would be dependent on that posters understanding of the proper adjustment. The Cook bridle was sort of confusing to me when I first got it and being new at the time to saddle horses (still am actually) I was not aware of things about the horses nose that I am now aware of.
> 
> ...


No, to the breathing and swallowing of horses , being interferred with, using a bit.
The scientific study by Dr hillary clayton disproved that point

It should be pointed out that it is the claim of Myler and the Bitless Bridle that they improve swallowing capabilities of horses, over conventional bits.The horses had the same bridle and surcingle set up (with the side reins being attached to the side rings of the halter, and the ring reins of the Bitless. Dr. Clayton pointed out that they could not achieve as great a degree of flexion using the side reins with the halter and the Bitless, and that it can't be determined if this affected the findings. They put an endoscope up the horse's right nostril, and a VCR recorded the movements of the larynx and number of swallows per minute. To ensure swallowing, five milliliters of water was infused into the horses throat per minute, while the horses cantered on the treadmill.Again, the findings were somewhat surprising. With the halter, horses swallowed on average 8 times a minute, 7 with the Bitless, 6 with the plain snaffle, and 5 with the Myler. However, when the results were looked at between the horses, it was found that the real difference is not in the bits but in the horses-some were frequent swallowers, no matter what was in their mouth, and some were infrequent-with a low of four swallows per minute to a high of 19. So what does this all mean for choosing a bit for your horse? Dr. Clayton 
​


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

When looking back at military references, as being the ultimate in horsemanship, one has to remember that many of those horses were trained out of intimidation ans total subjection to man

How else did you ride them into cannon fire , through mud and mire, with horse dying by great numbers, to the point that more and more horses were shipped fromt he new World to feed the cannons, as horse mortalities climbed.
Yes, we all know of Alexander The great, and his 'enlightened horsemanship, but do we really know what that consisted of?
I have a book on the history of bits, and in those times, bits with actual barbs that dug into the outside of the mouth were used. Did Alexander also use those bits? Don't know. Certainly, he love Beucephalous 
Yes, horses can be trained to work for use out of fear and total subjection, but we no longer match to war, causing horses to share man's fate in war, or dying , going over impossible passes,a s during the Alaska gold rush. There still is avalley known for the countless horses that died, going to those gold fields
Go to Cuba, or watch Amish horses at work-places where horses, as in days of war, were tools. Those horses work, never showing any of the rebellion many of our recreational horses do, as they are 'tools', trained to do a certain job, with technique to get them doing those jobs based on outcome success, and not on what it does to that horse either physicality or mentally
In the good ole days,w e also had children work in the fields, morning to =dusk, creating kids that questioned parents and authority way less than now, so maybe we should use that type of child rearing as ultimate?
I don't get this constant reference to old masters and military background
The fact remains, like anything else, horse training has improved with time, not regressed ( in good programs, anyways)


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Hondo--I don't know if this has been addressed already, because these posts are long and I only skimmed through them, but I think you may have meant to use "positive reinforcement" and "negative reinforcement". Negative consequence really isn't a behavioralist term, as it tends to speak for itself. Positive reinforcement simply means the application of an aid or stimuli, and negative reinforcement simply means the removal of an aid or stimuli.
Of course, this could just be a matter of misreading, and if so then I apologize~

As far as your response to me, I'd like to firstly direct you to the very first statement. I think people should use whatever works for their horse. if that means bitless then cool! Go for it! But that's no reason to judge other's choices.
For example, I ride my gelding in a double when showing and a gag at home. I have soft hands, and so this is not an issue.
If I were to show up in the Hunter ring with a bitless bridle, I would not be disqualified, but I would be severely marked down for this because it is considered unconventional, and Hunter sort of hinges upon light contact

So, it's important to realize that it's ok for others to do something different. I'm no heathen because I use a bit that others might not like :>


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Zexious said:


> Hondo--I don't know if this has been addressed already,


Cool, I do understand and agree with your "whatever works" definition. (i got carried away)

As far as behavioral terms,

Positive reinforcement=reward.

Negative reinforcement=punishment.

And where it gets confusing at first at least........

Positive reward=stuff like treats

Negative reward=stuff like, "i'll quit doing this uncomfortable stuff if you find the right answer" example, release.

Positive punishement=beat'em

Negative punishment=go to your room! no tv or cellphone tonight! taking away a desirable thing.

Very very important in my mind that these definitions be deeply and thoroughly understood for meaningful conversation about these type topics.

Thank you so much for your kind responses.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> When looking back at military references, as being the ultimate in horsemanship, one has to remember that many of those horses were trained out of intimidation ans total subjection to man
> 
> How else did you ride them into cannon fire...........


Smilie, I have argued with you almost as much as I have learned from you. I thank you for being there, where ever you are, whether I dispute, agree, or question the small details of a particular point.

I am somewhat humbled by the breadth and depth of some's experiences and readings as I embark upon my admittedly fledgling voyage. Of which there seems to be no horizon.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...I don't get this constant reference to old masters and military background
> The fact remains, like anything else, horse training has improved with time, not regressed ( in good programs, anyways)


That is OK. I don't get the modern preoccupation with ourselves, and the belief that only folks in the last 20 years have learned how to train a horse.

During the Battle of the Little Bighorn, one trooper thought he was about to die. He leaned forward, kissed his horse...and then the horse bolted thru the surrounding foes. But when that trooper thought he was seconds from death, he...kissed his horse. One of the scouts, I forget the tribe, found himself in a similar predicament. He hugged his horse's neck, moments before the horse forced his way thru the surrounding enemy. Neither man felt any shame in admitting later that, moments from death, what they thought would be their last act was one of affection for their horse.

This is one of my favorite photos from World War One. A British soldier had a short break near the front:








​ 
Yet we now believe that only modern man has discovered that horses and people can 'bond'! Only within our lifetimes have people loved their horses!

The US Cavalry manual did talk about punishment, as did Littauer and Fillis. All three specified how and when it could be done to make the horse better, and how it could be done to ruin the horse.

As Fillis wrote in 1890:"These remarks explain the fact that a clever and tactful horseman will obtain all he wants from his mount, without making him either vicious or unsound. Being able to recognize the slightest sign of obedience, he immediately stops the work, in order to make the horse understand, by pats on the neck, that he has done well. The quickness with which he perceives the slightest signs, saves him from overtaxing and disgusting the horse, and provoking him to battle, which will wear them both out.

The unskilful rider, who is slow in catching the cadence, will continue to use the spur, in order to obtain several cadenced times, and to be sure he is right, and will thus punish the horse, who, not knowing why he is punished, will defend himself, while the rider is spurring him. The result will be, that when he wants the horse to again do the passage, the animal will think he is going to be punished, and will become mad at the approach of the spurs.

Hence, the important point is to recognize the slightest signs of good will, and to be content with little. If the horse does not fear the approach of the legs, and if we are not too exacting, a time will always arrive when he will take up the cadence of the passage with ease and pleasure. We may then ask more ; because, as the horse understands us, there will be no fear of over-exciting his nervous system. (284)"​The US Cavalry manual said:"The fact must be borne in mind that punishments are very rarely necessary. Most of the faults committed by the horse are due to his ignorance and lack of training or to the insufficiency of the means employed by the rider. In either case, severity becomes an injustice and causes such harmful results that it is better not to punish at all than to punish wrongly."​I'm bewildered why anyone would reject what has been learned in the past and substitute only what someone says now. As a rider put it in 1961:"Because of the widespread preconception that you can only learn, in a sort of intuitive way, by doing, and that reading or even thinking seriously about riding is rather pointless, too many young riders are doomed to groping too long in a forest of problems solved long ago. I can recall my astonishment, when I first began to collect books on the techniques of riding, at finding, in books written two or three centuries ago, minute descriptions of "discoveries" that I had made for myself only after a long period of trial and error...Once we become interested in learning about riding, and are not content to repeat interminably the same errors, there is much that we can learn." 
- William Steinkraus, Riding and Jumping, 1961.​Of course, if anyone wants to discount what has been done prior to...1965, or 1975, or Pat Parelli's 25th birthday, or Dr Cook's patent of his bridle, that is their choice. My choice will remain to keep in mind what others learned back when men dealt with thousands of horses instead of 20 or 30...and to post it freely.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Good stuff all!! This is ALL considered important as I transition from my first year of the hoof to the rest of the horse.

And again, I am humbled by the seriousness and dedication of those on this forum that have gone before me long before I have entered my name, password, and joined.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

No, I do not reject everything from the past, and realize there have always been horsemen, and those who truly loved horses through the ages.
I just think there needs to be balance, based on tradition, and the present, and that not everytime there comes horse training problem/question, only past famous horse men are referenced to
Certainly, the jumping position, between that backwards behind the horse pics, and that of modern stadium jumping is an example of maybe learning more about the bio mechanics of a horse.
Taking more recent reference-just look at old reining pictures, esp in the stop, versus now. You will see in the past, a hard stop, regardless of style was rewarded. You see horses with front legs jammed into the ground, head up, and often mouth open. Compare that to a good reining stop today
I have the book on Reckless, Pride of the marines-an actual war horse , that shared accommodations with the troops, and often packed ammo across the battle field, to the front line, by her self
I'm not blind to good horsemen in the past, nor the bond that they shared with their horse. I just don't believe in using those examples as always being 'the standard', with nay modern good trainers falling way short by miles, and not worth using as a reference.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

A scary thought: What if the horse had not managed to escape North America across the bearing straight 11,000 or so thousand years ago, what would we be talking/arguing about today?


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Hondo, I'm sorry, but you're wrong... xD Those definitions, in the psychology world, are incorrect. I'll post the definitions below, even though I already gave them in lei man's terms once:

Negative reinforcement occurs when a certain stimulus (usually an aversive stimulus) is removed after a particular behavior is exhibited.

Positive reinforcement works by presenting a motivating/reinforcing stimulus to the person after the desired behavior is exhibited, making the behavior more likely to happen in the future.

Now you know~

And, as far as biases, we all have them.
The issue here is recognizing biases in reviews of a product that an expert is trying to sell...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Smilie, I have argued with you almost as much as I have learned from you. I thank you for being there, where ever you are, whether I dispute, agree, or question the small details of a particular point.
> 
> I am somewhat humbled by the breadth and depth of some's experiences and readings as I embark upon my admittedly fledgling voyage. Of which there seems to be no horizon.



Hondo, you will go far, as you truly accept the fact that learning about horses is a lifetime quest, and that no one, and certainly, myself included, ever knows it all.
Sorry if I at times come across strong, but it is based on the fact that horses have been a lifetime passion of mine
I have made many errors along that road, from hoofcare, diet to training, but I hope in the end, I have learned some things, often based on the needs of my horses.
I evolved in my methods in training horses, as my goal was to raise horses, but also then to assure those horses were in demand, thus more likely to get good homes. That meant that they had to be going good under saddle, and that some close relatives had proven themselves in the showring
Since my husband is a hunter, not a horse person, my horses had to pay themselves
I did not have outside money to throw at trainers, thus had to get relatively good at training and promoting our own horses under saddle
While the show world is certainly far from perfect, it is the only way that we have of testing our horses and our training, against our peers, and under some impartial third party's opinion
Many people have 'world champions, and horse that ride great, in their back yard, but that is being 'barn blind'
Far as hoofcare, took my favorite gelding to be messed up by farriers, and Smilie being IR and foundering, to send me down the path of rehabilitative hoofcare, and recognizing as to what optimizes hoof health and function-from trim, to life stye to diet.
Undertaking to show your own horses, requires taking clinics from many that have proven themselves in the various disciplines,and then taking from those clinics what works for you. There is nothing like having someone knowledgeable to critique your riding,and you will never get that same info from and reading or by watching videos
We (Albertans )are also very fortunate in having one of the best Horse seminars in North America, put on by Alberta Horse industry
Every year, The horse owners and Breeder's conference in Red Deer Alberta, brings in top speakers at the cutting edge of their equine speciality, from across North America. I have attended that confernce for many years.
We also had an Alberta Horse Improvement program for many years, that I was part of, and had horses evaluated, both in conformation and performance. This was not a show, but a performance evaluation that was scored. An equine vet scored the conformation, in the performance class, and the pattern was evaluated by two judges-one from a English background and one from a western background
Pattern was for 3, 4 and 5 year olds, not discipline specific, but to show future athletic potencial and train ability. The pattern itself could be ridden with western or english tack
A score or 75 and greater, was considered 'Classic.

Where am I going with all this detail?
Simple, to show good movement and training is not discipline specific between English and western. Smilie scored 'Classic' as a three year old, , and the interewsting fact was that there was only one point difference between the score I got from the western judge and that of the English judge, and got very simialr comments on the varous parts of my pattern

Then, since my husband is not a horse person, but an outdoors man, who uses horses to assess wilderness, I also learned to pack and ride in rough country, as that gave us one horse activity that we did together
(plus, i make sure that the horses are well taken care of, on those trips! )
I'm the one that takes them down to water, before sunrise, makes sure that they drink enough through out the day, and also have an adequate diet w , working hard.
I have been fortunate to help many foals come into this world, and have with the help of my vet, and hours spent all night, saved some that would not have survived otherwise-high mecomium impactions, and dummy foals
Do I know it all? Certainly not by a long shot, but I like to think all of these life experiences with horses, taught me something!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Zexious said:


> Hondo, I'm sorry, but you're wrong...


I said it was confusing. Now I am unconfused. It's been right at 50 years since I studied this stuff in a couple of psychology classes.

The error was in that the term reinforcement denotes reward.

Positive and Negative reinforcement IS positive and negative REWARD.

The rest I posted is correct. Now maybe you know more?

And thanks for jumping on that. I won't make that mistake again, well, maybe in another 50 years.

The correct part pasted from my previous post for the record:

Positive reward=stuff like treats

Negative reward=stuff like, "i'll quit doing this uncomfortable stuff if you find the right answer" example, release.

Positive punishment=beat'em

Negative punishment=go to your room! No tv or cellphone tonight! Taking away a desirable thing.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^I am currently about five classes away from receiving my Psychology degree from one of the most recognized programs in the country. What I posted is the contemporary usage of the terms. Things do change in 50 years


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie, and all I have to be concerned with is one horse that lacks only spook in place training which he will get. (got the book yesterday)


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Zexious said:


> Things do change in 50 years


I just HATE that


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Zexious said:


> What I posted is the contemporary usage of the terms.


What is the contemporary usage of the terms positive and negative punishment? Same no change or........?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> No, I do not reject everything from the past, and realize there have always been horsemen, and those who truly loved horses through the ages.
> I just think there needs to be balance, based on tradition, and the present, and that not everytime there comes horse training problem/question, only past famous horse men are referenced to
> Certainly, the jumping position, between that backwards behind the horse pics, and that of modern stadium jumping is an example of maybe learning more about the bio mechanics of a horse....


I don't quote Parelli because I've never read Parelli. I've read John Lyons and was unimpressed. I do post videos by Larry Trocha and others on things like teaching a good stop and cantering, etc.

But I fail to see anything wrong in posting what people like Chamberlin or Fillis wrote. The book by Fillis has been in print for over 120 years...maybe there is a reason?

I do reject much of the older biomechanics. The dressage theories about a horse needing to 'collect' to be balanced or the false idea that the back rounds up don't hold water. The idea of keeping a horse's head vertical makes no sense either when viewed with what we know about the horse's vision.

Much of what passes for modern biomechanics, as promoted in various books, is equally wrong. Dr Cook is wrong when he says bits rest on a knife edge, while forgetting the tongue. Many like to draw skeletons or stick figures to demonstrate why XYZ is good or bad, when real people have muscle tissue on their skeletons. Most seem to assume the backbone of the horse is how a horse supports the weight of a rider, as if the spine is an I-beam. Most of those who write about bits say curb bits use poll pressure, yet I cannot feel the 'poll pressure' when my fingertip are under the poll strap.

But that doesn't mean I reject all biomechanics just because some folks do it badly. Nor will I reject all older training methods just because some have done them wrong. 

The Cavalry had expectations of their horses that went well beyond what most modern riders imagine. It was common for them to move thousands of horses 40+ miles a day for a week - and expect to use them in battle on the last day. John Adams, the second US President and known for poor physical fitness, complained in his 70s that he found it tough to ride his horses 20 miles at a time...tired him out too much.

A curb bit helped Mia learn to stand still when afraid, and she then learned that many scary things were not scary after all. I'm sure a curb bit caused discomfort, but if the horse then learns to stop being so scared, isn't it worth brief discomfort? When she filled her leg with cactus spines, being able to stop her - and I saw no sign the bit hurt her mouth, but let's assume it did - stopping as a result would be vastly preferable to taking off across the desert and killing us both.

In an age when many threads on HF deal with spooking and balking, when people boast of being able to drag a tarp over their horse (did that with Mia, though it had no impact at all on her ability to handle seeing a strange looking flower or a mud puddle), perhaps the folks who trained their horses - all of them - to willingly go off dirt cliffs ("slides" in cavalry terms) have something to offer:


















I doubt those horses were big on spooking...or balking...or stressed over passing a garbage can...:wink: ​


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Hondo--As far as I can tell, negative/positive "reward" has been replaced by the terms positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement.
I actually haven't encountered the terms negative and positive punishment, my guess for this is because they are pretty easy to understand once positive/negative reinforcement is understood. Though they are likely still correct; in the same way that "coup" still describes a two door car, it's just not a term that people use.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Zexious said:


> Hondo--As far as I can tell, negative/positive "reward" has been replaced by the terms positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement.
> I actually haven't encountered the terms negative and positive punishment, my guess for this is because they are pretty easy to understand once positive/negative reinforcement is understood. Though they are likely still correct; in the same way that "coup" still describes a two door car, it's just not a term that people use.


I think it regrettable the terms of positive/negative reward are not used more. Here's why. Many times laymen, myself included, will default to the idea that negative reinforcement is punishment when that is absolutely false.

I think when bsms was talking about using the bit to cause discomfort in training, we were both thinking punishment. But causing discomfort when no behavior has previously occurred is not punishment. If the discomfort increased to pain at some level it would be considered abuse, but I don't know of a name for just causing sub-pain discomfort. Then removing that discomfort becomes a reward. Called release in horse talk. Never any punishment involved.

I guess the discomfort would be called pressure. We use that term a lot when droving cattle.

I'll have to say I find it surprising you have never encountered the terms of positive and negative punishment considering your studies.

And I still think it's too bad that the word reward was replaced by reinforcement. At least for the layman it is more descriptive.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> I doubt those horses were big on spooking...or balking...or stressed over passing a garbage can...:wink:


Hondo can do that and he still spooks.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^^ I'll be darned if I have horses figured out!

Maybe it is like the tarp thing with Mia. Folks use tarps to desensitize a horse, and a trainer did that with Mia, and there was NO carry-over to being able to handle a flower blossoming in the middle of the trail. But on a positive note, I just took Mia's replacement Bandit for his first solo trip riding with me around the block. He seemed to enjoy looking around, but didn't offer a sideways jump, an OMG Crouch or do more than flick one ear when the other horses called to him. But it is close to 100, so we did 2 laps and quit. No spurs, no crop, no whip, no split reins, nothing but a kiss to go forward and a mullen snaffle bit that wasn't used for much other than hanging the far end of the reins. He may actually be the sort of horse who would ride well bitless.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I am deeply bonded with Hondo but I gotta say, bsms, I am somewhat envious of you.

I rode a horse several times in Pagosa Springs the year of 66- 67 bareback and never fell off once. We went down hills where I could watch the rump of the horse in front of me bumping the ground about every other step.

I'm sure mine was doing the same but I was concentrating on two BIG handfulls of mane and pushing back!

I did not even know a horse spooked back then. And ahhh but I was much younger too.

I have read your descriptions of Mia and they are so familiar. And I read somewhere this morning that it was not hard to put stuff into a horse's head but no one has ever figured out how to take anything out. It'll ALWAYS be there. Sigh. But if I can just get Hondo trained to do the crouch as you call it, I'll be good. Even I can ride out a crouch!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sliding down slopes,is no big deal, esp when a group of horses re-enforce each other's confidence
There is the 'swarm' mentality
Horses have also been know to run back into a burning barn, after having been successfully led out, because in that moment of panic, that barn spells security
Many of the outfitter here, making al iving, packing hunters, some that have never ridden a horse before, into some pretty remote wilderness. Those horses will cross bogs, negotiate steep trails, remain spookless in the presence of gun fire-just don't ask them to ever ride out alone!
wHat I am saying, yes, many of those cavalry horses went where where ever asked,including into deadly fire, as in the Charge of the Light Brigade, but there is also the fact of having horses react , esp along side their peers, in a moment of panic/excitment , having security in that group, doing what the rider asks them to
If you want an example of a long rider, read Tschiffely's ride.

He rode two Crelio horses from Buenos Aires to New york
It is one of the greatest long ride in history, and unlike, Hidelgo, true

*Aimé Félix Tschiffely* (May 7, 1895 – January 5, 1954) was a Swiss-born, Argentine professor, writer, and adventurer. *A. F. Tschiffely* (as he was better known) wrote a number of books, most famously _Tschiffely's Ride_ (1933) in which he recounts his solo journey on horseback from Argentina to New York City, an epic adventure that still marks one of the greatest horse rides of all time. Tschiffely was a household name in the United States during the 1930s, meeting with President Calvin Coolidge and appearing in National Geographic Magazine and earning a lucrative living from his popular book sales.

Aimé Félix Tschiffely - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have the book, and truly a great read, going into not just the geographical challenges along the way, but protecting his horses from vampire bats during the night, and keeping them sound, going over extremely rough territory.
I strongly recommend the book!

Riding inspiration does not stop in military examples!
BSMS, if the curb worked for Mia, I'm not going to argue semantics, far as the basic problem really not being fixed.
Horses have both run off and bucked d people off, regardless of what is in their mouth
I look at calming agents and stronger bits as 'bandaids, and rather not rely on either working, 'when push comes to shove'

Far as getting into positive and negative re -enforcement-does it really matter. long as it is just, humane and the horse understands when he is correct?
I use both
Horses have been trained for eons, by learning to move away/yield to pressure, versus their natural instinct to move into it. They learn by that release of pressure, and even though that is the reward, it is still considered negative re-enforcement. learning to tie, learning to lead, learning to move off a rein or leg, give to abit,a re all based on this principal
Clicker training, with that food reward, is considered positive re enforcement. 
It evolved from dolphin trianing, although it has always been used to some extent for any liberty training/exhibition. How else do you reward ahorse at liberty?
Watch Cavelia, and you will see those liberty horses being treated
I prefer to use a scratch on the whither, a'good boy or good girl, or simply ending a work session, as a positive reward, when the horse has tried and done a good job
Does not mean I wont maybe feed them a treat, before turning them out, but I don't use food rewards as a direct positive re-enforcement in training.

What about circus horses that allow lions to jump on their back?Is that an example of upper level training, or of a horse working out of conditioning, based on absolute obedience?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo"
I have read your descriptions of Mia and they are so familiar. And I read somewhere this morning that it was not hard to put stuff into a horse's head but no one has ever figured out how to take anything out. It'll ALWAYS be there. Sigh. But if I can just get Hondo trained to do the crouch as you call it, I'll be good. Even I can ride out a crouch!  

Very true!
It is also the reason that I preferred to ride the horses That i trained from day one, as I knew what I had!
The only problem horses I ever had, were ones that I bought, like that mare off the track, and an Appaloosa mare I bought at an auction, when first starting to raise horses. She had obviously been drugged at that sale, as the longer out from that sale, the more she decided that bucking or bolting was okay
We are going back some 35 years, so I did not know what I know now, far as trying to fix that kind of horse, beyond getting back on, if they managed to buck you off!
We has a a spec house in town, and were just building our house on that acerage. I was still working in the lab, and my kids were little, so I would wait until hubby got home to look after the kids, then dash out to ride that mare.
About after week, before I even had that second foot in the stirrup (never lunged a horse in those days), she bucked me off. I thus checked her head around, got on and rode her'ending on a positive note'
Hubby, being more adventuresome in those days, complained that he had yet to ride our new horse. I told him that she bucked, but he wanted to ride her anyways.
She did not buck when he got on, but bolted. He decided to do a dis mount, as she was heading to a barbwire fence. (of course, she turned at the last minute)
Horse came runninhg back, so I followed the advise drilled into me, and one again checked her head around, got on and rode her.
Not until one of my kids told me that I had better check on their father, as he was not moving! I had neither glasses or contacts in-and that is my excuse, as hubby broke his ankle in two places!
She turned out to be ahorse I could trail ride, but one I would never put one of my young kids on, as she always had a tendency to revert
THat is the problem with ahorse that has learned avise-he never has that clean slate of mind that a horse who has been trained correctly from day one has
That horse will always need to be ridden in such a manner to prevent him from re verting to that vise, once he has been re -trained


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

To go back to my original contribution here, that it should be easy to rig up a cross under just to see if it works, I went out today and made one with a leather halter and one leather split rein. Turns out my horse is a candidate for one, he responded very well. However, this bridle is for direct rein only. When I trail ride with a snaffle I direct rein, but often need to neck rein with it to move a branch or something. My horse seemed confused with trying to neck rein in the cross under, so I might get motivated to make one, but I'd have to use it only when I ride here at home.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

see, my horses would just hate, hate that tight cross over strap under the jaw, but then my horses ride on a loose rein, thus I would assume that they get way more release from pressure, just packing that bit on a loose rein
Bits are not evil, but often used incorrectly, and then certainly have way more chance of doing damage that most bittless bridles, used with the same degree of bad hands (mechanical hackamores and Novell bittless bridles excluded )
Neck reining is more than steering with one hand-my hubby's trail horse does that, but he is not soild in working off of the indirect rein, able to do a complicated pattern one handed, while keeping frame and collection


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Nokotaheaven said:


> 've never heard of them before, but I've seen ones like it used. There are all different types of bitless type bridles out there. To me though, I do not really understand what the difference is between bitless bridles and hackamores. This here is the type of Hackamore I used as a kid, rubber noseband and everything


That is a Mechanical hackamore, and a pretty severe one at that!
Heck of alot of leverage there!


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## womack29 (Oct 30, 2011)

I used one on a previous mare and she did awesome in it. My current horse does better in a full cheek snaffle.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

womack29 said:


> I used one on a previous mare and she did awesome in it. My current horse does better in a full cheek snaffle.


ARE you talking of that long shanked mechanical Hackamore, or Dr Cooks bittless bridle? They are miles apart, far as severity, and sort of under lines the fact that some people think any bittless devise is milder than a bit
Not so! There is a reason mechanical hackamores are not show legal (ect games )
I would not use that mechanical hackamore on any horse of mine!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

whisperbaby22 said:


> To go back to my original contribution here, that it should be easy to rig up a cross under just to see if it works, I went out today and made one with a leather halter and one leather split rein. Turns out my horse is a candidate for one, he responded very well. However, this bridle is for direct rein only. When I trail ride with a snaffle I direct rein, but often need to neck rein with it to move a branch or something. My horse seemed confused with trying to neck rein in the cross under, so I might get motivated to make one, but I'd have to use it only when I ride here at home.


You are missing the lower chin strap that is supposed to be adjusted to one to two fingers to keep the bottom rings from going higher than 1 1/2 to 2 inches above the corners of the mouth.

Otherwise looks pretty good except that I agree it does look tight for some reason. And right to left crossunder looks too straight across but it may just be the angel of the picture.

Because of the missing chin strap adjusted as a Cook's is, I don't see this as that good for an evaluation of a Cooks.

Confusing piece of tack. Had I not been riding with one for the last year I would not have been able to make these comments.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> They learn by that release of pressure, and even though that is the reward, it is still considered negative re-enforcement.


You are making my point as I think you are mis-understanding the operant conditioning terms also.

ALL reinforcement IS reward. Both positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. And yes, a release of pressure is a reward under terms of operante conditioning. It is under Escape-Remove noxious stimuli

Here is what happens to cause the confusion.

Giving treats is positive reinforcement. Fits the definition. So people say, oh! I see! That's easy, so negative reinforcement would be punishment, right? I got it.

Wrong wrong wrong. Reinforcement = Reward. Always. 

There used to be two types of rewards and two types of punishment.

Now there are two types of Reinforcement (both are forms of rewards) and two types of punishment (that part has not changed).

See below (again):


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

That's interesting to know, that the packers horses would not ride solo. I'd have figured they'd do anything.

The person I gather cattle with is a good rider and in handling the dogs needs at times to take off much faster than I am able. Hondo does not like that at all but I have made a point of stopping or taking a different trail when following and coming back together and over the year he has gotten much much better.

If he's the only horse, he's fine solo once we get away from the herd. Soon as we start getting close to the herd on the way back, he starts getting a little hyper again. I guess he just wants to see that his buddies are still ok and are still his buddies, .....I guess.

I spent the last two nights at a remote campsite I set up about 1 1/2 miles away from the horse pasture and he didn't seem to give a hoot where his buddies were.

Well, until we finally went back.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Hondo said:


> You are missing the lower chin strap that is supposed to be adjusted to one to two fingers to keep the bottom rings from going higher than 1 1/2 to 2 inches above the corners of the mouth.
> 
> Otherwise looks pretty good except that I agree it does look tight for some reason. And right to left crossunder looks too straight across but it may just be the angel of the picture.
> 
> ...


Looking at the picture again, I'm thinking the double clips might be adding weight that may be interfering with the release. Also the crossover strap looks perhaps to be a little stiff and restricting release somewhat.

Those two things might explain why the crossover straps appear to be a little tight under the chin.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Hondo, I made one of these for a friend years ago, and don't recall using it on my horse. Again, this was just a mock up to see if it was easy to rig up. I rode for a few minutes at a walk, turned, backed, and my horse was responsive in it. It worked just fine.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo, I was just statng that those people who study horse physiology classify the total training concept of pressure and release from pressure.
I used to think that the lease from pressure was a positive reward, but apparently not, in the entire picture of pressure and release from pressure


This is how that pressure and release of pressure is classified:


“Positive reinforcement”:
Positive reinforcement is an operant conditioning process where the linking of a behaviour with a stimulus increases the frequency of that behaviour in the future. For example, if, as a horse is walking into a horse trailer, it receives a carrot, and then the behaviour of entering the trailer becomes more frequent in the future, this behaviour is said to have been _positively reinforced_. 

However, there is a recent trend to describe the removal of pressure as a “reward” or “positive reinforcement” because the horse desires it. The fact that something aversive needs to be applied for its removal to be desirable is an ugly truth that is often swept under the carpet by this inaccurate use of the term. This type of reinforcement is actually _negative reinforcement_ which, as with _positive punishment,_ relies on the judicious application of something aversive to the horse in order to modify behaviour.

Here is the entire article ans terminology;

Are We Habituating to Inaccurate Terminology within the Field of Equestrian Science, and is this Overshadowing Our Progress? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

From the article

*Are We Habituating to Inaccurate Terminology within the Field of Equestrian Science, and is this Overshadowing Our Progress? *

 Mat Ward and Catherine Bell 









One of the great advantages of a scientific approach to behaviour is that we can define specific words, ensuring everyone knows what everyone else is talking about. Unfortunately, in the field of equestrianism, well established terms relating to learning are often used inaccurately. This may be due to ignorance, or possibly in an effort to put a positive spin on favoured training techniques relying on aversives. Even among leading practitioners within the equestrian science field, terminology is being used that is sometimes at odds with definitions that have been in place for 50 years or more.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I am merely taking of positive, versus negative r-enforcement, wwhrn talking of clicker training and the traditional method of pressure and release.

_clicker training, would be considered positive re enforcement

pressures and release from pressure is negative re enforcement

The is also the use of habituation and over shadowing


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Hondo, I was just statng that those people who study horse physiology classify the total training concept of pressure and release from pressure.
> I used to think that the lease from pressure was a positive reward, but apparently not, in the entire picture of pressure and release from pressure
> 
> 
> ...


Again, the thing that concerns me is that many read Negative Reinforcement as Punishment, which it is not. Some people try to limit Punishment, me included, and those should understand that the application of discomfort or an annoyance of any kind is not punishment if no behavior has previously occurred. Then when a desired behavior does occur, the removal of the annoyance is a reward. A negative reward but reward never the less. And now of course "termed" negative reinforcement.

Just wanting people to be clear that negative reinforcement has nothing to do what so ever with punishment.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Originally Posted by Smilie 
<They learn by that release of pressure, and even though that is the reward, it is still considered negative re-enforcement.>

Again, I think you are confusing terms as you seem to think it is contradictory that the release being a reward is considered negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement IS reward by definition. Period. Always has been and has also been referred to as negative reward, which is more discriptive.

Positive reward=adding something desirable (a treat)

Negative reward=removing something undesirable (removing pressure-release)


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

whisperbaby22 said:


> Hondo, I made one of these for a friend years ago, and don't recall using it on my horse. Again, this was just a mock up to see if it was easy to rig up. I rode for a few minutes at a walk, turned, backed, and my horse was responsive in it. It worked just fine.


Cool! It would definitely show before hand if a horse would object to the crossover straps.

Just trying to help on what I understand of the design. But that's all available online anyhow.

User Manual : The Bitless Bridle by Dr. Robert Cook, FRCVS, Ph.D., a humane alternative to the bit


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo, I really do get what you are saying in the long run, but it is just semantics in the end
Whether you try to define some concept by the text book, as per definition, or just know how to apply a concept, really means nothing to the horse.
Horses learn by repetition
Horse are creatures of habit
Horse get security in having a clear leader and clear boundaries, versus inconsistency and grey areas
Horses live in the here and now
Horses understand, through training, to move away from pressure, and then the reward of release for pressure , when they do the right thing. Does it matter if you call that positive or negative re-enforcement? The horse certainly does not give a dam
Horses, through their herd/prey mentality, seek a strong leader that they can trust. It is their very nature, that if you don't lead, they will
All that agonizing as to what terminology to apply, means about zero in the end, as text book theory,without practical hands on application , means not much when it comes to training horses, except giving someone a topic to write another paper on
Horses don't care about abstracts. They care about clear, firm, consistent and fair leardership


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

My question remains, while I think all horse should ride bittless, if so desired, I also believe all horse should also be able to be ridden with a bit, so why the hang up with bittless???
The wrongful propaganda of Dr Cook, is certainly \partly to blame, as is the whole mentality of ;natural' being better, and the association, that thus , shoeless, bittless and treeless , must be optimum in all cases
This is pure balony!
I can ride nay of my horses in a halter, and have e\done so, taking them down to water on trail rides, ect
I have also started many young horses in side pulls and bosals
I went to a cowhorse clinic, with my three year old in a bosal. The trainer told me to use a snaffle, as I would get more done
The fact remains that bittless a good choice for many amateurs that don't have good enough hands to ride with a bit, or on horse that has been abused with a bit being used incorrectly
Other than that, horses often declared as 'not likely bits,being too ;'sensitive for a bit, in reality, lack the eduction in a bit
Of course, a horse will appear to prefer bittless, if he is never taught how to respond to bit pressure, as after all, that bittless brilde uses familiar pressure points that the horse is used to, from being halter broke
Those same people, fail to realize that the mouth of a horse is 'virgin ' territory, so a horse can't just transfer the giving to pressure he learned in a bittless devise to a bit. He needs the right education, that helps him under stand this new form of communication
Teach him that, and you will have a much more responsive horse then you ever will bittless, due to increased communication and finesse
Yes, bittless is more forgiving of bad hands, but as arider, would you not strive for that next level of communication self improvement?
It is very easy , watching someone ride with a bit, to see the level of refinement/communication and true feel in that rider's hands.
If my horse is packing a bit on a loose rein, I can pretty much assure you, he is more comfortable than a horse with that constant pressure of those cross under straps, that never give true release


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Does it matter if you call that positive or negative re-enforcement?
> All that agonizing as to what terminology to apply, means about zero in the end,


Well of course it doesn't matter to the horse, directly, he doesn't understand or think it words.

But it sure DOES matter when two humans are attempting to make meaningful communication. Correct understanding between two individuals is limited at best even when correct understanding of terms being used, but when understandings of words and definitions are different and wrong, then communication takes a downward plunge.

Learning the correct terminology with which to discuss the proper training of horses with others should not be considered an agonizing experience.

So I'm afraid I directly and categorically disagree with the thinking expressed by the passages quoted above.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Much of the bashing of Dr. Cook appearing on this forum is "agonizingly" baseless. How many surgeries have been performed on horses by those bashing him? How many that bash him have any idea the breadth of studies involved in acquiring a Ph.D in veterinarian medicine?

I have never read where he said that the jawbone of a horse where the bit lies is sharp as a razor, but someone on this site said that Dr. Cook did say so.

Well, sometime back my dog brought the jawbone of a horse into the yard where it lies still. I think it is from Reyna who was lost in the flood last year.

Anyhow I remembered the razor comment yesterday and picked it up. Sure enough, there is a prominent ridge right on top of that area.

Until I am presented with clear, meaningful, and defining evidence to the contrary, I shall default to what Dr. Cook says rather than those that have little to no experience in equine physiology and surgery.

But that's just me. I do not expect nor require others to agree or follow.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

I just keep getting drawn into this! I can see no "bashing".


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Much of the bashing of Dr. Cook appearing on this forum is "agonizingly" baseless. How many surgeries have been performed on horses by those bashing him? How many that bash him have any idea the breadth of studies involved in acquiring a Ph.D in veterinarian medicine?
> 
> I have never read where he said that the jawbone of a horse where the bit lies is sharp as a razor, but someone on this site said that Dr. Cook did say so...


Actually, what I said he said was "Horses are made nervous and are frightened by having painful metal rods placed in their sensitive mouths. When one or more reins are attached to one or more rods, this makes it far too easy for riders, albeit unintentionally, to apply highly focused pressures to the hard and soft tissues of the mouth. As the mouthpieces of bits are circular *and the bars of the mouth are knife edges*..."

And I provided the link to where he said it:

http://www.bitlessbridle.com/Tradition%20or%20Science.pdf

Those were both in post #58 of this thread, and quoting someone is not bashing them.

However, I did say he was wrong, and you are too if you look at a jawbone and conclude something from it.

Why?

Because we do not ride skeletons. We ride living horses. Living horses have flesh. The have tongues. And much of the weight of the bit is carried on the tongue. Mylar has made a reputation for bits with "tongue relief", but I'll note the US Cavalry described tongue relief as something that made a bit more severe since less weight carried by the tongue meant more on the bars.

The inside of a horse's mouth looks like this:




























​

It does not look like this:








​
Until Dr Cook understands the difference, the number of letters he puts after his name won't bother me much. Some of the stupidest things I've heard have come from vets, farriers, professional trainers and highly experienced riders. 

As much as I admire George Morris, I don't agree that you should use a double twisted wire bit on a horse who bolts. Why not a good western curb, instead?

I've had a farrier tell me any horse without shoes will go lame. My first horse with shoes arrived a week ago, after 7 years of riding horses without them - none of whom went lame.

A woman who teaches riding for a living once told me you collect a horse by pushing their rear faster, holding it back with the reins, and then their back will bend up like an arch and they will be able to carry more weight - arguably the worst sentence on collection ever made. But she is actually darn good at training horses...she just doesn't ride them the way she says she does. :?

It goes on and on and on. I've had very experienced people tell me curb bits are cruel, working through pain, and anyone who uses one is dominating their horse thru fear. That doesn't match what I saw with Mia, not by a long shot!

I'm 100% certain that Dr Cook's Bitless Bridle works great on some horses, and I'm happy for those people. I'm thinking about trying a "LightRider Bitless Bridle" on my new horse. He might do well in it. I'm also certain that after trying Mia for years in various bitless bridles, and then trying a bunch of different snaffles with her, that she darn neared exclaimed, "About time!" when I put a curb bit in her mouth. Took to it like she had been born with one. I eventually rode her in a great many different bits, mostly snaffles, but never found anything she responded to as well as a Billy Allen curb with 7.5 inch sides:










The bit I'm trying now in my new guy is a snaffle version of the same bit, relying on the tongue for support and cues:








​
I'm all in favor of keeping an open mind and being willing to try different things. But I'm not buying the extreme arguments made by Dr Cook calling all bits cruel and inhumane:

"Cruelty is defined as the infliction of avoidable pain (Morton 1993, Cook et al 2006). Now that an acceptable and preferable alternative to the bit is available, the pain of a bit is avoidable. *It follows that the bit method should now be reclassified as cruel* (Figs 5-7). Quite apart from its *inhumanity*, it has also been shown that the bit is not even an efficient or safe method of communication (Cook et al. 2003)." - same article as linked to above.​


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

I wonder then if Mia was trained in a curb, and therefore anything else was foreign to her. And as for "experts", all I can do is be glad that the internet has changed the way I take care of my horse so much. Yes there is a lot of gobblty ****, but it has allowed me to actually look at my horse and figure out the best way of doing things because so many opinions are presented.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

As best as a pro could tell, Mia had no training at all. She had been ride-able, to the extent she was, because she was a fundamentally good, sweet horse. She seemed to enjoy being with people, including people on her back.

I also had to TEACH her how a curb bit felt and worked from the ground first. When she responded well with me standing next to her head, we tried it with me walking beside her. Then from her back at a walk. It took about 3 sessions of 45 minutes each before she was stopping with a good faith effort at a canter.

We then resumed trail riding, and she never bolted with me again - after uncounted bolts in both bitless bridles and snaffles. So I was exaggerating, slightly. But only slightly. We had gone 3 years riding bitless, and then nearly a year without riding her, then a year in snaffles, with her fighting both bitless and snaffles. Most people told me I would ruin her if I put her in a curb, but I was at the point of putting her down because she was too dangerous for a beginning rider and no one with experience wanted her - not even for free.

She still had a lot of fear issues, and we slowly chipped away at those. Never fully solved it. But she never bolted in mindless fear again, and that was a huge improvement. Sitting out a spook is far less dangerous than dealing with a horse running in mind-numbed fear.

And I'm not saying every horse should be ridden in a curb bit. Not even close! But bitless sure is NOT the only humane way to ride a horse!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If you want to use the Dr Cook I would remove all of his opinions on bits from the scenario and the same goes for any others that are fanatically 'anti-bit' like Nevzerov and use one because its the right thing for your horse either temporarily or permanently

Dr Cook might have wonderful credentials for his surgical work but he's also a salesman and supporting the evils of bits will boost his own sales.
A horse pulling against the delicate bones in its face and all the nerves there would be just as painful as one pulling against its jawbone - in fact there's less flesh between the skin and the bones in the face
The problem is the pulling and fighting not the bit (or the bitless)


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Mmmm interesting about Mia. My current horse came with no history, and was so confused by everything I tried on him. Put a solid curb on him and he just went "finally, we can get to work here"!


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

bsms said:


> As much as I admire George Morris, I don't agree that you should use a double twisted wire bit on a horse who bolts. Why not a good western curb, instead?


George teaches English riding and wrote books on English riding. He is unlikely to suggest a western bit in a book about English riding.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

updownrider said:


> George teaches English riding and wrote books on English riding. He is unlikely to suggest a western bit in a book about English riding.


True, and there might be other reasons why he offered that advice in "Hunter Seat Equitation". However, the book deals with ways of handling various problems, and it seems like recommending something other than a double twisted wire snaffle should be possible. My point was that someone can be a master and still offer advice that will not be helpful in many situations.

Gen Chamberlin is one of my favorite authors on riding, yet he despised western riders - and I ride western. It doesn't matter if it is Dr Cook, Gen Chamberlin, George Morris, your farrier or a friend who has ridden horses for 60 years. Because of differences in how we ride, why we ride, the horses we ride, the tack we use, we always need to check advice against our horses. Mia did great with a curb, but Bandit may end up bitless or in a snaffle. Neither will be worked with constant contact, not because English riding is bad but because I don't have the skill or the need to develop it. A bit can cause pain, but so can bitless. If your horse refuses to stop bitless but stops willingly in a bit, then a bit might save you and your horse's life on the trail.

My 3 favorite authors on riding are Littauer, Chamberlin and Morris, in that order. None of them rode western. They have taught me tons, and all 3 had more knowledge of horses in their fingernail clippings than I'll ever have - but I don't need to assume they are "right" for how I ride. Cook is a vet, but my vet tried to convince me I needed to feed my dogs a special, high-priced diet...and I've owned dogs much longer than she has been alive. Being a vet doesn't mean Cook is right about bits.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Until I am presented with clear, meaningful, and defining evidence to the contrary, I shall default to what Dr. Cook says rather than those that have little to no experience in equine physiology and surgery.

But that's just me. I do not expect nor require nor request others to agree or follow.

I've read where Dr. Cook says that bits cause pain or the threat of pain. Being in his middle or upper 80's it may well be that he has heard so many say, and may have well said so himself for many years, that "bits in the right hands do not cause pain" for so many years with a continuous line of horses coming in with bit damage to their mouth that he just turned his back on all bits all of the time.

I believe he believes what he says. I do not think him a liar.

And when the horses mouth is spoken of as being a sensitive area, I do have some personal experience.

I was told the human mouth was the most sensitive part of the human body by someone prior to having plastic surgery to remove a squamous tumor from my lower lip. Looks good. Feels bad. Has hurt every day for three years and likely will the rest of my life.

Nerve damage within that cannot be found or repaired.

Makes me wonder why Hondo hated the bit so much. Glad your's is working out and glad you are gentle. And I hope that all who follow your suggestions will be as gentle. Including episodes of elevated anger and hanging on during a bolt with loosened seat.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> We then resumed trail riding, and she never bolted with me again - after uncounted bolts in both bitless bridles and snaffles.


Did I mis-understand something? I thought you had given Mia up because she still bolted and you decided she would be better on a cattle ranch.

Why then did you give her up?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Until I am presented with clear, meaningful, and defining evidence to the contrary, I shall default to what Dr. Cook says rather than those that have little to no experience in equine physiology and surgery...


If photos of a mouth










or millions of horses doing well in bits doesn't constitute evidence, what does? 

Hilary M. Clayton, BVMS, PHD, MRCVS "received her veterinary degree from the University of Glasgow in 1973. She spent the next two years as an associate in a mixed veterinary practice in Kilmarnock, Scotland before returning to the University of Glasgow where she earned a PhD in 1978. From 1979 through 1980, she was a visiting assistant professor in Michigan State University's Department of Anatomy. She then returned to Glasgow for two additional years. In 1982 she accepted a position with the University of Saskatchewan in Canada where she spent 15 years as a professor of veterinary anatomy before returning to MSU to fill the McPhail Chair."

She also disagrees with Dr Cook. Believe who you wish, but her experience is at least as good as Cook's, and arguably better. She's used X-rays to watch how bits perform while in the mouth of a cantering horse. She's measured rein pressures and measured how much a bit depresses into the tongue under pressure. She's measured things like salivation and breathing with both bits and bitless. Why would her expertise be discounted in favor of someone selling a product?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Did I mis-understand something? I thought you had given Mia up because she still bolted and you decided she would be better on a cattle ranch.
> 
> Why then did you give her up?


No, she hadn't bolted in years. She would still startle and jump sideways. That is a bad habit for someone who wants to ride down narrow trails with cactus on either side. She was also an intense horse and expected her rider to be constantly involved. A detailed description on why I swapped her with my farrier's horse can be found here...post #8 makes an excellent point:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/mias-last-day-bsms-580473/#post7464529

She gets a younger, stronger and more experienced rider, riding her in an area where 30 mile rides are common, with a chance to learn to work cattle and do some broodmare duties. I get a horse who tries to get along and likes a low-drama ride. I think we'll both be better off - but if she ever needs another home, she'll be welcome back. In a heartbeat.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> She also disagrees with Dr Cook. Believe who you wish, but her experience is at least as good as Cook's, and arguably better. She's used X-rays to watch how bits perform while in the mouth of a cantering horse. She's measured rein pressures and measured how much a bit depresses into the tongue under pressure. She's measured things like salivation and breathing with both bits and bitless. Why would her expertise be discounted in favor of someone selling a product?


Thanks, this is stuff I'm looking for. I will be reading her work. But also, why would anybody discount a person's research just because he was selling a product?

The work and research should stand on it's own whether or not there is a product in question.

I at least attempt to be one that seeks knowledge rather that evidence that supports what I believe or wish to believe.

And that includes evidence that disproves any or all of Dr. Cook's pronouncements.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> No, she hadn't bolted in years. She would still startle and jump sideways.


Ok. Memory thing. Startle and shy I would at present be happy with. He is pretty trail savvy and I'm not really worried about him doing something stupid on a narrow trail. But ya never know. But solid startle but no shy sounds really nice.

I just like to be out there, enjoying the day and the scenery, relaxing, poking along.

Did you ever do any formal startle/spook in place training?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Well of course it doesn't matter to the horse, directly, he doesn't understand or think it words.
> 
> But it sure DOES matter when two humans are attempting to make meaningful communication. Correct understanding between two individuals is limited at best even when correct understanding of terms being used, but when understandings of words and definitions are different and wrong, then communication takes a downward plunge.
> 
> ...


Ok, then here you go, and classify as you wish

Horses naturally move into pressure , resist, thus a fundamental of training has been, to teach horses instead to yield and move away from pressure instead. Horses thus learn a cue by the application of pressure, but mainly from the removal of that pressure when they comply. Apparently that reward of release of pressure is negative re -enforcement
Fine by me.
Timing is more important that classification of a reward, JMO- thus feeling when the horse gives just that first little try, and rewarding by taking that pressure off, then ask again. For instance, when first teaching the side pass, get a correct lateral cross over step, taker leg off, repeat, versus just hold that leg on the horse for a number of steps
A scratch on the whither, for a good try, at the right time, so often mis done in a show situation. Horse does an honest job in a trail course, for example. Time to pat him is when he goes through that exit gate, not after standing in line for several minutes and hearing you placed well

I'm more concerned with incorrect terminology, that goes beyond just some horse people new to horses, but is also used in tack catalogs and even by professionals, for convenience-thus , while those pros know what that slang means, it confuses many that are un informed
Don't know how many times I heard people say they were using a snaffle or a hackamore , training or riding their horse, when in fact they were using curbs and leverage bittless 

The word 'hackamore is used interchangeably with bosal, and has no leverage
A mechanical hackamore has shanks, same as a curb bit, far as leverage
Thus, one of my very favorite pet peeves is 'shanked snaffle'. Sure, it is easier to say that jointed mouth curb
OR, all jointed mouth curbs are referred to a Tom Thumbs-also not true

Headset begins to me collection to many

I don't worm my horse, has he most likely has enough worms on his own. I de worm them
Blood thinners, used to mean anti coagulants-also not accurate

Thus, Hondo, while semantics of abstracts concern you, I can't begin to list all the scientific inaccuracies that I feel equally confuses, or more so, far as training communication


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Ok, sorry to sound like a broken record, but the following , to me, states what Mia's problem truly was:

'As best as a pro could tell, Mia had no training at all. She had been ride-able, to the extent she was, because she was a fundamentally good, sweet horse. She seemed to enjoy being with people, including people on her back.'

That is a horse who packs a person, having a good nature, but in reality, never had a true education in the fundamental bit used to train a green horse-the snaffle
Me, I would have ridden her for a year in a snaffle, getting all that body control on her.
Anyway, I'm sure regular work will be great for her. 

There are many dude horses, that the outfitter buys cheap at local auction marts each spring, puts some quick training on, then uses them in his trail string, for all kinds of level of riders, but those horses are truly not 'broke'
They ride anyway, getting their confidence from those other horses, but try to take them out alone, or on a different route, and you soon find out as to how broke they are!
I am not trying to be argumentative, but this is a discussion forum, and a horse like that needs neither a curb,at that time, nor a twisted wire snaffle, but rather to go back and fill in holes in training missed
Sorry, but I do have to stand up for what I believe-no evil intentions!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Sure, I give up. Negative punishment, positive reward, makes no difference what you call it.

Dr. Skinner must be doing somersaults in his grave.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> Ok, sorry to sound like a broken record, but the following , to me, states what Mia's problem truly was:...
> 
> I am not trying to be argumentative, but this is a discussion forum, and a horse like that needs neither a curb,at that time, nor a twisted wire snaffle, but rather to go back and fill in holes in training missed
> Sorry, but I do have to stand up for what I believe-no evil intentions!


I had the advantage of actually knowing her. In fact, after going 8 months without riding her, a PRO spent 4 days a week training her, including to use a snaffle bit, for 2 months, then 2 more months of twice a week training. A pro filled in the hole. Sort of. Including this:








​ 
But she was also an intently focused horse, very aware and capable of picking things up on her own. I did her no favors, in some regards, but she learned on her own how to fight and resist a snaffle. She could also be very dominant, unyielding - and when she was scared of something in a snaffle, she would fight it. I would win, but not until we had done a bunch of 180 degree turns between the cactus, and not until her elevated emotions caused her to remember that scary thing was VERY SCARY.

She could not evade the curb, so she gave up and obeyed. Or maybe she just liked curbs. I don't know. But after 3 training sessions in the arena on what a curb bit was and how to respond, she never bolted away again. And when she held her ground, she began to realize that the scary thing would go away. And she began to give up her fears.

She never became calm. That wasn't who she was and is. She was always extremely aware and sometimes she would startle. But she gave up running away. The last time was a couple of months ago, strolling down the neighborhood road when she jumped sideways to the right, spun 90 right, rememberred, then swung her butt around way right so we ended up facing left...and seeing A Human In The Wild. OK, a guy in his yard, cutting the branch of a tree. He asked if something was wrong. I said no, my horse is just strange, and my DIL riding behind me complimented me for staying on. 

But no, some holes don't get filled in, particularly in an arena. Some things have to be faced outside an arena, and learned there. And yes, a curb bit helped her learn much, much better than she did in a snaffle - AFTER 4 months of training by a good pro horse trainer. The fact that some bitless options are easy to ignore, and snaffles can be as well, means SOME horses WILL learn to ignore them. A curb is much harder to ignore.

So for some horses, a curb bit is simply a good bit. For some, a snaffle works great. And for some, bitless gets the job done. Listen to the horse & use what works for you, your horse and your goals in riding.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Not sure I'd agree with Morris on using the twisted snaffle - I suppose you'd have to differentiate between a horse that was truly bolting in which case you'd try almost anything for safeties sake and one that was just strong and forward going and needed a slightly stronger bit and a more experienced rider that knew how to hold it 
We're fairly certain that all of K's troubles began when they switched straight from a full cheek french link to a twisted snaffle to try to get more stopping power and instead ended up with a wreck


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Please don't take this question to mean any more that it is at face value.

I'm wondering if a curb bit could be easier to carry with the tongue off the gums since it is not broken in the middle.

I am both impressed and discouraged with the effort you put into Mia.

A roadgrader has been working about 1/2 mile away complete with backup bells. It's long gone now but Hondo is still acting nuts/freaked/scared.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

I think you need to start thinking about how different each horse's mouth is. There is a big difference if you actually start looking and thinking about how (and there are so many now) different bits will fit inside and outside a horses mouth. Not sure I am explaining it correctly, but in a perfect world each horse would have a custom bit. And that does not even take into account how the horse likes particular bits. That is why we all have a box of bits somewhere in the barn.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Harold, A little bit off the bit topic, but relevant to your mention about the machinery. 

When the church retreat next door was doing some work with heavy machinery, Oliver was very intently looking in the direction all the banging and beeping was coming from, but could not see it through the trees. It was making him nervous. I haltered him up and took him over to have a gander at a distance. He watched alertly for a while then eventually lowered his head and started eating grass. After a bit I brought him back to the pasture and the noises didn't bother him the rest of the week they were working over there, even when they were scraping bedrock and the ground was shaking.


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## WildAtHeart (Jul 17, 2013)

I prefer sidepulls to the Dr.Cook or Nurtural Styles. Side pulls just seem to make more sense to me...and the horse


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, that is a lot more info on Mia than we originally had, so maybe the curb was the right choice for her

I had a picture of a horse with about no training, just agreeable to having a rider on her back, and then ridden out in that snaffle before she had what I call the basics.
I agree that you don't get trail experience in an arena, and horses will ride different outside of their comfort zone, until that also becomes comfortable to them
What riding a green horse in an arena for awhile though does, is put that body control on him, so that when you do ride him out, you have the tools to do so, including disengaging the hips, taking head away, ect, so a horse never learns to set his neck and run through a bit
Old hackamore reinsman, that rode those green horses out in a bosal, doubled them for that very reason, showing the horse that they could be controlled by that bosal. You certainly can't just try to pull on them to stop them.
They would let the horse out in a gallop, on loose rein, then take a short hold on one side and turn that horse completely around in his tracks.


Here is some info on doubling, from Ed Cornnel

Mr. R.B. Mason
11841 No. 67th Street
Scottsdale, Arizona​ Dear Mr. Mason:
Just rec'd your letter from the Longhorn Press regarding the book HACKAMORE REINSMAN. Sure glad you like it and are able to use the information contained in it.
You mention that you are from the North country which is Snaffle bit and Grazer bit country. That must be up around Montana thereabouts. I know that is Snaffle and Grazer bit country. Years ago when this country was mostly cattle country there were some really good riders that came out of there. Rough string riders and good ones. 

You state that you do not quite understand the term "Doubling". I am not surprised at your question. Over the years since the book has been out, (1952) I will state off hand that I have rec'd at least 500 letters regarding the term "doubling". The reason that this has happened is that when the book was being published, the Publisher got a little scared that it was not going to go over, as this was the first time that a book of this kind was ever published, and he kept writing to me to cut it down to a bare minimum, so I cut out too much on "doubling". 
Doubling is known also as "pulling", also in the vernacular of the old time horseman was known as taking the horse's head away from him, commonly known as busting.
Doubling is the most important basic principle of all. First, It is the basis of control of the horse without which the horse could run away with the rider commonly known as stampeding. By taking the horse's head away from him around to the side, remember, it breaks the stride of the horse and he cannot run. His stride is broken with the first pull, although doubling is a series of pulls, not just one. After each pull his head goes back straight again until he is stopped and turned around the way the rider wants him to go. When doubled the horse's head is never held around to the side as he can learn to run with his head in that position and then he is on the road to being spoiled. Always let his head go back straight after each pull, and the rider can change sides too, if he does not stop quickly enough. 
Doubling should be done when the horse is started, not after as then it will be a little difficult to get him coming in the right direction. It is the basis of control of any saddle horse and it does not hurt him in any way. No matter what the horse is going to be trained for he should be doubled thoroughly at the start.
Through doubling the horse learns respect for the hackamore and he will start to lighten up on it. He has to be light or he cannot be trained to stop and turn correctly. He has been doubled and he knows what the pull is to make him follow his nose around.
Here is the entire link, for anyone interested
Some western history, far as hackamore reinsmanship



Horse Training Books - Ed Connell, Hackamore Reinsman, Reinsman of the West, Vaquero Style Horsemanship


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

That's the sort of thing I'll do and I did finally take Hondo over next to the road but alas the roadgrader had already made it's last pass.

Hondo was already upset by a trailer with some of his buddies passing by not far away. The roadgrader usually does not bother him but when he gets "bothered hormone glands" to secreting, he gets nervous about everything for a while.

If the straight magnesium supplement doesn't appear to be doing much by the time it's gone I will try some of the stuff you use.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

WildAtHeart said:


> I prefer sidepulls to the Dr.Cook or Nurtural Styles. Side pulls just seem to make more sense to me...and the horse


I'm thinking of replacing the Cook's nylon with either Beta or leather and have been lookig at the Nurtural. Have you used both Nurtural and Cook's? Sounds like you have. Any particulars on why you preferred Nurtural over Cook's?

I'm not sure Hondo would care one way or another sidepull whatever as long as it wasn't a bit.

I think the idea of a Cook's or Nurtural is in an extreme moment when the rider may use the reins to stay mounted the tension or force on the reins is distributed over a larger surface which reduces the pressure on anyone area.

There is a sure enough bronc rider working here at the ranch for a couple of months, he doesn't have to worry about using the reins to stay mounted.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Here is some info on doubling, from Ed Cornnel


That sounds sort of similar to what I wound up doing with Hondo on one 20 minute session of extreme upset on a roundup at the neighbors.

The only way I could get him going forward in a somewhat controlled manner was with a rein in each hand pulling him left and right as he moved down the trail in a sort of a prancing jig or similar.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> That sounds sort of similar to what I wound up doing with Hondo on one 20 minute session of extreme upset on a roundup at the neighbors.
> 
> The only way I could get him going forward in a somewhat controlled manner was with a rein in each hand pulling him left and right as he moved down the trail in a sort of a prancing jig or similar.


Why I posted that info on the doubling, was the fact that a horse can learn to run through a bosal way easier than a snaffle bit, yet those horsemen rode green horses out all the time in bosals , by showing them that they could a take their head away 
Also as in the Larry trocha video that I posted, you never use a steady pull on both reins, in ether a bosal or snaffle, if ahorse tries to bolt, run through a bit, but that taking of the head away, with a set and release, set and release
That was my point when I originally posted that you have to also ride with your legs-dose not mean you stop a horse that is going strong, against the bit by using legs and seat, as in cross country jumping, but it does mean that you teach ahorse leg response, giving his head, in other words 'body control, so that when you ride him out, you can take his head away, dis engage those hips, re direct his feet, to prevent a bolt, and not trying to out pull the horse with a bit
If you try to just pull, you give the horse something to lean against, lock his jaw and stiffen his neck, and then you are up the proverbial 's..t creek without a paddle!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt7QnI0DMM4


Getting a head set, softness in the face, in an arena, is not the total picture when it comes to the body control you need out on a trail, and how aggressively you can take that head away if needed

Thus since we can agree to respectfully disagree, i stand that any horse who has learned to run through a snaffle, has not been trained correctly, pro or non pro
This does not mean you might not need 'more bit', in some upper adrenaline speed events where the horse gets 'strong' with speed and competition, or if you make a habit of galloping on trail rides


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I think a very observant horse can learn how to evade a snaffle eventually, just as mine eventually figured out how to open a double-latch gate by moving part A so that she could then move part B, both of which she had to do with her lips in the right order to get the gate open. None of my other horses have ever figured it out. But in some ways it is irrelevant, since most of the riders I know buy horses with "A List", as Cherie puts it: horses who came with holes or bad habits already taught to them. (And yes, I've sometimes added holes...  )

Thus the question for most the folks I know is "How do I handle problem X?" The best answer is often "Take 8 steps back and find the root cause of the problem". But sometimes the answer is, as Tom Roberts puts it, "*That will profit you not*". He used that expression because it emphasizes he is not talking about punishing a horse, just letting the horse learn that behavior X doesn't have any reward associated with it - so why bother doing it?

Looking at bitless (to get back to topic), I plan to try a LightRider Bitless Bridle on Bandit. It looks to me like a simpler bridle arrangement than Dr Cook's. It is a simple strap arrangement that the maker says results in most pressure going on top of the nose, similar to a mechanical hackamore, only softer.










The maker claims:

"_The unique design of the chinstrap keeps the noseband from twisting and sliding when the reins are used. This in turn puts more direct pressure on the nose and causes the horse to listen to a lighter feel on the reins.

The soft webbing chinstrap releases when rein pressure is relaxed, providing an instant reward for the horse.

It is much safer than a halter because the communication is more direct to either side of the horse’s head (and therefore easily understood), and the reins cannot become stuck on the neck if the horse tucks its head in to avoid pressure._"

Why LightRider - LightRider Bitless Bridles

I like that they add this:

"_As with anything new, please proceed with small steps and check that you have control/obedience on the ground and then at all paces while riding in an enclosed area, and in different situations before riding with others or out on the trail._"

Will it work? I don't know. It seems much of my time with horses involves trying 6 or 8 things and deciding which one works for my horse...and then finding out a year later that there are another 5 options I might try.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sorry for going off topic some, and I guess I am wondering why you feel so strongly about going bittless, Hondo?
As I and others mentioned, his conclusions, concerning bits were flawed
Studies are influenced all the time by using data either incorrectly complied, in various manners, including selecting a population that will support a pre conceived notion, thus excluding subjects that might refute any opposing opinion.
Dr Cook's equine patients, were composed of horses where bits are used in a strong manner, esp in the case of polo ponies, where not only are those bits used with contact, but also with artificial aids like martingales

Also, in all fairness, where are there any studies on harmful effects on facial nerves, soft tissue damage, using various bittless bridles?????

I have no problem with people preferring bittless if it works for them, but not with the idea behind that decision, considering bits evil, cruel and thus 'bittless more natural, better and kinder
My horses would certainly shake their heads at that notion, happily accepting bits, opening their mouth for them, going relaxed down a trail, just packing that bit
Vaqueros could certainly ride horses in bosals , but they eventually progressed those horses to working in a Spade bit, not because those horses were running off, not working cattle, etc, but because those horses went from 'kinder garden, through high school and graduated University, able to be ridden with great finesse
Everyone who has seen Stacy westfall's tackless free style reining run is awed, watching it, but fail at times to realize she is able to do that, because that horse is first highly trained to be ridden in a bit, having reached the point where that horse is ridden ona loose rein off of seat and legs. It is then possible to drop that bridle for those bridle less demos
It is also a fact, while I believe that bits don't truly control horses, unless you also have that body control, therefore not riding with just hands, I personally feel I can take a horse's head away, should I need to, much more effectively with a bit


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If the bitless choice is based on a concept of a less pain thing then you really need to look at how delicate the bone running down the horses face where pressure from most bitless options is going to be - and how many nerves are below the surface and compare that to the thickness of the bone the bit lies on
We had one OTTB that was unstoppable in any bit but was easy to handle with no effort at all in an English hackamore


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms, I have looked at the LightRider before and it really LOOKS nice! Like the looks of the Western style a lot.

But I'm not understanding the sliding chin strap. Maybe if riding two handed, but what makes it slide back to neutral on the release? Maybe I'm not seeing something.

Smilie, it has been my understanding from day one before even getting on this forum that any horse can run through any bit. Fear trumps pain. And pain elevates fear.

And I did not go to a Cook's bridle because of anything he said or anything anybody said against bits. I had not even read any of Dr. Cooks stuff at that time. Hondo was just really really resisting the bit. I'd have to pressure behind the corner of his mouth with the bit ready to go in to get it is. So I started reading up on reviews of bitless. Just running through the net it was looking like Cook's bitless was the front runner. So I decided to give it a shot.

When I announced at the ranch my intentions to buy one they laughed, "Who you gonna get to try it out, not me!"

Well Hondo likes it. Helps me thread his nose through the straps and stuff. Put it on in the pasture like a halter. That would never ever happen with a bitted bridle.

I've been told all horses are different??? Maybe Hondo was hurt with a bit previously. Who knows.

jaydee, the cross over straps hardly touch the sides of the face if at all. Mostly when riding with one hand they are not even touching. Pressure points are nose, chin, and poll, in decreasing amounts from nose to poll.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jaydee said:


> If the bitless choice is based on a concept of a less pain thing then you really need to look at how delicate the bone running down the horses face where pressure from most bitless options is going to be - and how many nerves are below the surface and compare that to the thickness of the bone the bit lies on
> We had one OTTB that was unstoppable in any bit but was easy to handle with no effort at all in an English hackamore


Not sure I'm understanding you, but if you are comparing a vertically hanging 3/4 inch wide strap along side the horses face to the pressure of a bit on the jawbone or the hackamore across the nose, then I'm thinking that's way way off. There is no pressure pushing in on the side of the face at all or to speak of at least.

It is also my understanding, although I'll admit I really don't know, that a hackamore has a "potential" to inflict as much pain as the bit.

What is it do you guesstimate that made the unstoppable horse in a bit stoppable in the hackamore? May not know for sure, but a guesstimate.

Pain from the bit making it run harder? Or more pain from the hackamore making it stop? 

Do you know what reining technique was used with each device? That could make a difference.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

i agree, Hondo, that there are horses who have had permanent damage done to their mouth and tongue, by the wrong use of a bit, and it that case, bittless is certainly something to consider, and the right decision for that horse, esp if he works well in it
My point was just not to go bittless just due to the natural hype, but for the right reason. Seems you have done that, so kuddos to you

I asked why, and your answer seems reasonable!

As aside note, there have been horses who have also had major damage done, by the wrong use of some bittless devise. A mecahnical hackamore is an example of a bittless option that have have severe consequences in the wrong hands, same as abit
There is also the 'Quick Stop, that some have used to put a stop on heir horse. In the wrong hands, it can break a horse's jaw.
Yes, I know we are comparing apples to Oranges, but juta fuel for thought, not directed towards you, but to some that have the idea that all bittless devises are more kind/milder/more forgiving of bad hands, 
than bits
Just for some discussion, again, no way directed towards Dr Cook,s bittless bridle, but general interest' here is some info on the cross under bittless bridles, which Dr Cook, apparently did not invent, per say.


*Cross-under family*

Evidence of the concept of creating leverage by crossing the reins under a horse's jaw dates back just over 100 years. A bitted bridle with a cross-under design was patented by an individual with the surname McCleod in 1894.[_citation needed_] The first record of a cross-under bitless design that utilized nose, jaw, cheek and poll pressure, dates to the 1950s,[_citation needed_] about the same time that patents for the mechanical hackamore began to proliferate.[19] It was developed by an individual with the last name of Grimsley, allegedly designed for a group of rodeo bulldoggers in New Jersey.[_citation needed_] In 1980, the crossunder principle was part of a design by an individual named Woodruff, who obtained a patent for a halter. The first cross-under bitless bridle that utilized jaw and poll pressure that was patented and filed with the U.S. Patent Office was a 1988 design credited to Edward Allan Buck. The "Dr. Cook bitless bridle" arises from the 1988 design, and the Cook design was patented in the United States in 2001.[_citation needed_] Another version of the cross-under jaw/poll pressure bitless bridle is called the Spirit Bridle.
The disadvantages of these designs are the long way the rein has to travel to apply pressure and the slow release, as the reins are guided through rings on the side and go back from there to the rider's hand. Even if the rider lets go of the reins quickly, the reins slide back slowly. The pressure on the cheek can also cause the horse to tilt its head to escape it.
*Designs applying poll pressure*

 


A cross-under bridle.


In a *cross-under* bitless bridle, each rein connects to a strap that passes through a ring on the left side of the noseband and subsequently crosses under the horse's jaw and up the cheek on the opposite side, goes behind the ear and join the opposite rein at the poll.[20] Thus, pressure is applied to the bridge of the nose as well as to the branches of the lower jaw, cheek and poll joint.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

See, that slow release, would not do for any of my horses, and why I prefer a bit, but , on a horse that has had a bad experience with bits, by some stupid person, or for a well broke horse and a rider that has yet to develope 'feel', bittless is a good choice


*Controversies*

The advantages of bitless over bitted headgear is hotly disputed. Hackamores and other bitless headgear are commonly used to start young horses, particularly if the horse is started at a time when a young horse's permanent teeth are emerging and the animal may therefore have issues with a bit in its mouth. However most traditional schools of horse training transition a young horse into a bit after a year or so. However, some promoters of bitless bridles encourage their use for the life of the horse, and a few go so far as to suggest that a bit may cause physical as well as mental problems in the horse.[25] However, advocates of traditional bridles note that like any piece of horse headgear, a bitless bridle in the wrong hands can also inflict pain.[26] Another significant problem with a bitless bridle is that collection and being "on the bit," such as is required in dressage, is more difficult, if not impossible. Another problem is that any movement of the horse's head laterally has to be requested by the rider through unsophisticated "plow reining," or large hand or arm movements.[10]


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie, I posted a link way back on Page 5 where Dr. Cook details the history of the crossunder and how he got involved in it.

The page:

http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/dr-cook-bitless-bridle-502234/page5/

The Link: Q&A with Dr. Robert Cook, Creator of the ‘Dr. Cook Bitless Bridle’ (Part 1) | The Naturally Healthy Horse

I feel like I'm in a round pen going in circles

As far as the release being slow, just because someone says so doesn't necesarily make it so!

If I understand how a sidepull works, then a crossunder is a sidepull before it contacts the chin and before it contacts the poll.

Since with pressure, the nose/chin band slides up some, I can see an argument for a slower chin and poll release but the nose band release should be as fast as a sidepull.

And all that said, if a horse can really feel a fly land on it's backside in a 40 mile an hour storm in Montana, or something like that...I forget, then I'm betting the horse can feel a release the exact micro second pressure is reduced on the rein.

I know to go forward from a stop all's I gotta do is move my rein hand an inch or less forward and he takes off. With my hand in front of the saddle it should be in his blind spot. So if he can feel that as quick as he does, he CAN feel the release just as quick.

But Hondo's special. I think I'll snap the reins on solid instead of on the crossunder and I'm betting I won't be able to tell the difference. Probably could ride with a halter and reins now that I know him.

Did a 12 mile ride today. Neither brace, shy, spook or even stop to look. I did stop him three times to look. Fingers crossed. But he doesn't spook at all on some rides anyhow.

His ears went on full alert a few times along with slightly elevated head. I'm riding a little different too.

I was laying down in the grass with the lead in my hand and some noisy waterfoul took off and he went about 2 feet. But that's understandable.

I was getting discouraged but today really helped.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, , Hondo, it certainly sounds like you and horse Hondo are in tune, working well together, so I am the last person that would ever advise you to change what you are doing,
You two are partners, Hondo has improved greatly, learning to trust you, and you are enjoying that partnership, so no need to change anything that is not broken!.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

OK, here I go again on bit and bridle design. Especially these days when horse's heads have become daintier, all horse's mouths and heads are very different. So as for release from a cross under, I would suppose that it will vary according to how the head is formed. I say suppose because I do not have access to a lot of horses to test this theory, and it is based on what I see from using bits and mechanical hackamores on my own horses. Also the weather and the condition of the horse over the time of the ride must be taken into account. Will the straps slide more freely on a hairy head in the freezing snow, or a summer coat on a hot afternoon.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Hondo said:


> Not sure I'm understanding you, but if you are comparing a vertically hanging 3/4 inch wide strap along side the horses face to the pressure of a bit on the jawbone or the hackamore across the nose, then I'm thinking that's way way off. There is no pressure pushing in on the side of the face at all or to speak of at least.
> 
> It is also my understanding, although I'll admit I really don't know, that a hackamore has a "potential" to inflict as much pain as the bit.
> 
> ...


That horse was an OTTB in the UK that had raced over fences and then gone a fairly typical route when he was sold out of that into Point to Point racing and Team Chasing. In his nature he was a really easy going good natured horse that didn't know how to spook or get excited but something must have really freaked him out under saddle because the minute you sat on him he would start to sweat up. We got rid of that by spending months ponying him off another horse but he still had no brakes at all regardless of what sort of bit you rode him in and if you let him go on a loose rein he was 'gone'. A 5ft jump was nothing to him so a fence wasn't even going to stop him
He was great on the lunge and would do everything to verbal commands and someone suggested we try him in an English hackamore - and it was instant success. As soon as the bit was removed from the scenario the problems went away. 
He was show jumped in a german hackamore because it was easier to collect him in that but you didn't have to use a lot of pressure as it just distributed the pressure differently - more leverage = more poll pressure over increased pressure on the nose using the English hackamore. 
He was only ever 'direct reined' but was trained to leg pressure so the use of the reins for turning was minimal anyway


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

*What is it do you guesstimate that made the unstoppable horse in a bit stoppable in the hackamore? May not know for sure, but a guesstimate.

Can I guess to?
The hackamore gave new pressure points, and thus by passed those that had been dulled by someone hanging on with a bit OR
The horse could have afear association with any bit, again, based on past experience, so that he stopped thinking and just went into resistance flight mode, and which backs up my stance that a horse can learn to run through any bit, given enough time
Mechanicalhackamores can exert a great deal of pressure on sensitive facial nerves and bone structure
He was also most likly ridden correctly in a hackamore, and had a history of being incorrectly ridden in a bit

A horse never has a clean slate of mind, if he has past experiences that caused a negative association, and I have heard of horses have a fear when a certain bit is used, not because of fit, etc, but because in the past, that horse was abused with such a bit, that the minute it is put in his mouth, past fear memories surface, and he reacts automatcally
Horses learn to run through bits, by riders always hanging onto them, as used correctly, a bit does not stop a horse. What stops that horse is mental conditioning and response tot hat bit, and that is what allows reiners to do a run down, and stop a horse on a loose rein

Even if you don't appreciate reining, you can see this horse go from afast circle to a slow circle, without pulling on the reins, and also stop, from speed, on a loose rein

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od8lj_FOkh8

*


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jaydee said:


> because the minute you sat on him he would start to sweat up


Did the hackamore solve that or was that solved prior to the hackamore? Poor horse, he obviously must have had a very bad experience somewhere sometime.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

We solved the sweating up before the hackamore, it was presumably stress related - some horses really don't have the temperament to deal with racing especially Team Chasing, he was the 3rd horse that we had that had its head messed up by that sport. Ponying him was the thing that worked for that IMO


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I have ridden with horses that had been gamed, and you are very right, they can get their head messed up, esp if forced to go at speed, before they can run acourse more off of seat and legs, thus are jerked around the obstacles, spurred and batted to run 'home'
Some of those horses won't even enter an arena, as they associated running with pain. They rear an dbalk at the entrence, needing to be led in, and if their were no walls on the end of that arena, would still be running!
I was asked to ride such a horse, just to get him ready for a sale, as the owner could not ride him outside of a pen.
I have also trail ridden with gymkana horses, and swear I never will again, as all that prancing , dancing chomping on the bit, affects the rest of the horses, esp the ones some kids are riding, as horses feed off of each other
It is so important to get 'broke', before you add speed and adrenaline, and even then, some horses just get hot
Ever watch some seasoned rope horses in the box? Some are very difficult to settle, as they wait for that barrier to open


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

For such a small brain, they've got a lot goin' on.


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## shelby hurley (Jun 5, 2015)

*Dr. Cook Bitless Bridle*



That lil onyx said:


> I've been bitless for a 3 years now with my mare, and she's in the Dr. Cook bitless bridle. As I've spent time on here, I've seen many opinions about their severity. My mare loves hers and I'm light handed, so I wouldn't even dream of hurting her. She's very responsive. So anyway, I was just wondering if anyone uses Dr. Cook or has used it and what y'all think/thought about it?


My gelding has been bitless in the Dr. Cook and he loves it. He acts better and responds better. He never liked a bit. We've used him in drill team wearing it and no control issues. He did not like a hackamore. He's just not in to any type pain.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

A little late to join in...but I will.

Personally I see a lot of people saying how much the bitless riding changed their relationship and work with their horse, however one thing I also noticed is that when they finally decide to make a change with their horse and are at the end of their rope and have to start fixing the issues that were there before or they put there themselves they start to pay attention, and study and seek training and overall become a better horse person because they couldn't figure out what the heck was up with their horse. So When people say that switching to bitless is so much better and the results are amazing- I ask about their training and where the horse was before- because nine times out of ten it's just people not knowing anything and then learning a thing or two.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> *What is it do you guesstimate that made the unstoppable horse in a bit stoppable in the hackamore? May not know for sure, but a guesstimate.
> 
> Can I guess to?
> The hackamore gave new pressure points, and thus by passed those that had been dulled by someone hanging on with a bit OR
> ...


Good analysis there. Very telling. Thanks.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

In the end, I have no problem with people going bittless, if that is their choice and works well form them and there horse.
At the same time, I agree totally with lostastirrup, in the fact that horses declared to not 'like ' bits, going better bitless, in 98% of the time at least, were never truly educated correctly on how to respond to a bit, learning to be very light, through correct training, or were ridden by someone with not much skill in riding with a bit correctly. It take a a great deal of time to learn that 'feel', to ride mainly off of seat and legs, and when to hold and drive a horse, and when to then also give instant release
Bits, used correctly, on a horse trained correctly in progressive manner, create a very fine tuned communication tool, that the horse feels completely comforatble and at ease with, and in the case of a western horse, that bit is often just packed on a loose rein, so I don't buy a horse not 'liking a bit, without assuming that horse was never ridden or trained correctly with a bit.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

This rider seemed to do pretty will with a bitless, and also sans bridle, in the freestyle portion after the first part. Right up there with the reiner dude. Maybe better, what do you think?

Freestyle begins at 2:08

https://youtu.be/icsV8M8sJuU


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

He looks fine though he doesn't look like the sort of horse that gets 'buzzed' by anything!!!
I'm inclined to think that a lot of it depends on the individual horse and their temperament.
I did a lot of gymkhana as a child and so did my kids and we had some ponies that were very 'hot' and bounced everywhere but we also had some that were really good at the sport but nothing ever seemed to excited them
With that OTTB of ours - yes I'm sure that the behavior with the bit was all about association with bad experiences connected to bad riding because he lunged in side reins in a snaffle and made no bones about it at all but as soon as he had a rider on board that all changed no matter how light they were on his mouth. 
We're going through much the same thing with K right now.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Shows horse is responsibly responsive, but there is no true finesse on any of those horses.
The mustang chellenge is another way in encourage people to do something and adopt many of these horses, and most put a credible job on them
Whether shown in a bit or bosAL is really a non issue
Stacy Westfall's tackless reinig demo, in my mind, remains one of the best examples of what can be achieved by having a horse so light in a bit, reSponsive to legs and seat, that you can drop that bridle completely, and still, do a reining run at the caliber she demonstrates in this video
When Stacy showed the same horse in regular NRHA events, she rode with a curb
This is 'free style reining, where costumes and music are used, and you ride your own pattern, as long as it demonstrates all the required reining maneuvers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKK7AXLOUNo


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

If you wish to see a hackamore working cowhorse, here you go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkJ8hp4CBYw

That is the dry work

Far as hackamore horsemanship, Les Vogt is legendary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACqUmpCVt2M

It also shows the entire bridling concept


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Stacy is great! I shared to fb.

But thought I'd mention for those who may not know, on the mustang makeover vid I posted, the competitors do not get to choose the horse. It is a wild and chosen by lot, or drawing.

The competitors have either 100 or 150 days to work with the horses. Not years. Hard to imagine in my mind bringing a full grown wild horse that far in that amount of time. I think it is just magnificent.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Trooper came to us from a friend's ranch in Utah, but we didn't have facilities ready for him right away so they loaned him to a ranch in Colorado. While there, the idiots spurred him bloody - and this on a horse who was named "Trooper" because he just naturally did what he was told! Some time later, after arriving here, he looked like this:








​ 
Seven years later, one scar has overgrown with hair, but the other one is still there - lumpy bare flesh where spurred.

Anyways, when he arrived, we asked a local trainer to evaluate him. She walked into the round pen - and Trooper exploded! He hit the rails so hard that 3 sections, 12 foot long each, went flying. He sprinted around and finally got as close as he could to Mia and waited.

With some experimentation, we discovered it was the lady's cowboy hat that set him off. You could walk up to him hatless, or in a ball cap...but try it in a cowboy hat and he would go bonkers.

We sent him to her place, and it took 4.5 weeks of work to get him to stand relaxed while touched all over with a cowboy hat. I went to many of the training sessions and watched. Also took some live lessons in round penning and desensitizing. But 2 days after he accepted the cowboy hat, the trainer told us he was finished - a good, trusting trail horse again.

The point (on a thread about bits) is that horses form strange associations. He wasn't afraid of SPURS, but he was afraid of COWBOY HATS. He linked the type of hat with pain.

Thinking about bits, a horse might link almost anything to a badly used bit - the headstall, the type of bit, bits themselves, bridles, a person's clothes...it doesn't have to make sense to us, only to the horse. If a poor fitting headstall was used and allowed a double joint snaffle to bump against the teeth, then the horse might hate double joints bits. That doesn't make double joint bits bad. It just means double joint bits are bad FOR THAT HORSE. You could eventually train the problem away, but you might also get great results the next day by simply taking a single joint bit. A horse might hate a rope sidepull because he was ridden in one - with a too heavy, bouncing rider. If he associated the latter with the former, he'd act up in the rope sidepull for reasons that had nothing to do with the sidepull.

With Mia's replacement (Bandit) today, the honeymoon was over. He's been ridden with slack reins with a Billy Allen snaffle and done fine. But then, I think a new horse tends to be on his best behavior as he gets used to a new place (or sometimes his worst, I guess). With Bandit, he's been very submissive.

That seemed odd because the previous owner told me Bandit could be a handful, unsuitable for a beginning rider. He even described him as feisty, which sure didn't match what I had seen so far. Until today.

Today, he was full of "I don't feel like it!" We did serpentines up the road to keep him busy. Then he decided he would pig root. I didn't get mad, just followed Tom Robert's suggested approach: "*That will profit you not*". Later, I insisted he ride behind Trooper. NOT A HAPPY CAMPER! He would pig root. He tried lifting his head high and extending his nose. "*That will profit you not*" - my hand went up and I bumped the reins until he dropped his head. That took a surprising while, but it was the last time on the ride he did it. He must have tried passing trooper 20 times, and 20 times he did not get to: "*That will profit you not*".

When we later took the lead again, he tried more pig rooting. "*That will profit you not*". Going past a group of horses he has gone past a dozen times, he decided to be jumpy...so we did a few circles. "*That will profit you not*". Then we exited the roundabout at the exit of my choosing, so to speak, and walked away from the horses.

During the next 5 minutes, he dropped his back 3 times, about 4 inches each. The last time, I started laughing at him. "_Bandit, I'm a Mia-trained rider! You could drop to your [expletive deleted] knees and I would follow you! I've done a thousand of these, each with a lot more drop and a lot more brace. As far as I'm concerned, this is FUN!_"

I guess he got the idea, because the last 10 minutes were with slack reins and no problems.

But today reminded me I AM a Mia-trained rider. When she was switched to a snaffle, she did many of the same things - and I reacted badly. I'd get upset, or angry. Or I would let her get away with it because I wanted to be gentle. Or I would back off because I was nervous. Or I just didn't know what to do.

I was new. And someone could have ridden for 15 years, but if they had always ridden well-mannered and submissive horses, they might not know what to do either. The first time you see something, it is easy to handle it wrong. That is being ignorant, not stupid. It is simply not knowing, but how can you know about things you haven't experienced?

I dug a deep hole with Mia & snaffles. Switching to a curb bit helped us both. With time, I filled in most of that hole with snaffles. Not all, but most. When Bandit did some of the same things (although without losing his mind, which Mia sometimes did and which was justifiably scary), I knew how to respond. I never felt like he was going to lose his mind or his balance. I sure never felt like I was going to lose or even loosen my seat. At the end of the ride, I was happy. It felt good to have a horse be less than 100% cooperative. That was starting to get boring.

But when I was a beginning rider, I'd have been worried about the bit. Or bitless. Is it the mouthpiece? Does the horse need XYZ instead? When what the horse needs - Mia and Bandit both - was a rider who wouldn't get mad, wouldn't get scared and wouldn't let the horse profit from undesirable behavior. In short, it wasn't the bit (or bitless) that was the problem, it was the rider using them!

I suspect a lot of the argument of bitless/snaffle bit/curb bit/single joint/double joint/etc boils down to not realizing that all those things can be affected by the horse's previous experiences (or lack thereof). All are affected by training. And if a horse is stuck in a rut in any of those, then sometimes trying something different will get the horse and rider out of the rut. Sometimes the horse needs a paradigm shift, without us knowing what is being shifted inside their brains. We need to fill our bag of skill with lots of tricks, and get good at using each one, so we can pick the trick the horse needs...because where I live, most horses come with "A List"...:wink:

Gratuitous trail ride picture, the youngest on Trooper as I stretched my legs. I need to get off and walk every 45 minutes or so for a few minutes. Otherwise my back and legs give out. In this section of trail, the teddy bear cholla cactus grow 7 feet high. A horse who is stupid could drag your face into one. Meanwhile, Bandit grabbed a mouthful of dry weeds and had no trouble eating it with his bit. Couldn't find anything to help out, so had to remount from level ground.








​


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Stacy is great! I shared to fb.
> 
> But thought I'd mention for those who may not know, on the mustang makeover vid I posted, the competitors do not get to choose the horse. It is a wild and chosen by lot, or drawing.
> 
> The competitors have either 100 or 150 days to work with the horses. Not years. Hard to imagine in my mind bringing a full grown wild horse that far in that amount of time. I think it is just magnificent.


 Not really, by great colt starters.
Those colts that they use in the many colt starting challenges, like Road to the Horse, which Stacy, by the way, won one year, against the guys, basically works the same way, but in an even way more narrow time frame.
Basicaly un touched young ranch raised horses are used, and drawn by lot number, and within three days of hardly being handled, they are ridden, saddled, and on the last of those 3 or 4 days, ridden on a course, loping both directions, dragging a log, working a cow, and even roping one off of that colt
Stacy herself admits that she never uses that rushed crash course at home, but that challenge, shows what is possible. She bought the horse )(pOpcorn ) that she won that colt starting challenge on

Why I posted that video,, is not to show that someone should just ride a horse out in the open with no tack, but the degree of body control that you can get on a horse
Stacy explained as to how she is able to do a stop, without a bridle, in a clinic I watched
When you stop ahorse, with 'traditional tack, you have three main cues.
Reins
Body position and seat
the verbal 'whoa
What she does, is teach her horses to stop on each of those cues , used by itself.
Thus, in using a bridle, she has that bit, seat,body language and the 'whoa'(three cues )
When she does that freestyle, removing the bridle, she still has two of those cues left to use

Far as mustangs, they are just horses, and ranch people here have caught many, and state that they are fairly easy to train. There is no mystics involved, and in fact, most trainers prefer a horse un handled, over one that has been handled incorrectly


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS, I totally agree with you that a horse can develop a phobia about anything they associate with a bad experience, including a certain bit, or ahat, or even agender of a certain build
I think that I mentioned the horse my son rescued form the meat wagon. In his case, that horse had been started by some idiot in a curb and spurs
Yes, 'idiot' was a good rider, so got that horse ridden, but through fear, intimidation and not through training or trust
He then sold that horse, and he bucked new owner off hard, who then decided to ship him.
My son, because the horse is well bred, was asked to rescue him.
He put him back in a snaffle, and at first, each time Chris got on, the horse would close his eyes, blank out and buck
With work, he got a lot better, and Chris rode him on trails for more than a year, in a snaffle, with that horse going anywhere. He now rides him in a curb, and the horse obviously forgot his initial training in a curb, or maybe the type wa just different, or maybe holes got filled in, or maybe he just got to trust the hands on those reins


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Basicaly un touched young ranch raised horses are used,



So are you saying that Stacy could draw a mustang and do what the gal in the video I posted did in three days?

I didn't think Stacy's ride was that much more than the girl with the BLM horse and I'm betting Stacy has had that horse for more than 150 days. JMO


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

FWIW, the trainer who worked with Mia (and Trooper and Lilly) did one of the mustang challenges on the local level once. She didn't win. She also felt some of the trainers took short cuts or were doing stunts instead of training the horse to be good for any rider. She asked for and received permission to keep the horse for an extra couple of months, training it the way she believed right at her own expense, before handing it on to the new owner. And the new owner and horse got along well, so she figured it was a 'win' of the right sort.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Unless you are a reiner, maybe those rides looked similar to you, but they were miles apart
I'm saying that the time frame for those mustang make overs is not unreasonable to get those results, by any decent horseman
Those colt starting challenges (you should go to one ), show very accelerated process of taking an un broke horse, to riding that horse on a course, in a big arena, including on cattle, in three days
Stacy admits that it is not the way she starts colts at home, any more than the rest of those trainere that take part in those competitions, but it is crowd entertainment, much like that mustang make over, except with way, way less time involved, and that certainly ups the degree of difficulty and level of ability needed
Yes, many of those riders in that mustang make over , look like amateurs, and I see huge flaws in the maneuvers that they do, like spins and stops
Both have money up, and are 'crowd entertainment'


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> FWIW, the trainer who worked with Mia (and Trooper and Lilly) did one of the mustang challenges on the local level once. She didn't win. She also felt some of the trainers took short cuts or were doing stunts instead of training the horse to be good for any rider. She asked for and received permission to keep the horse for an extra couple of months, training it the way she believed right at her own expense, before handing it on to the new owner. And the new owner and horse got along well, so she figured it was a 'win' of the right sort.


 Very true, BSMS-those challenges, whether they be colt starting challenges or mustang make overs, are not for the horse, but for crowd entertainment.
Most horsemen that take part in those competitions (money ),l will readily admit that it is not they way they would ideally start a horse
Just because something can be done, does not mean that it should be!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Related observations on snaffles versus curbs and hackamores in spooks and general riding here:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/bit-use-587762/page2/#post7555714


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

bsms said:


> FWIW, the trainer who worked with Mia (and Trooper and Lilly) did one of the mustang challenges on the local level once. She didn't win. She also felt some of the trainers took short cuts or were doing stunts instead of training the horse to be good for any rider. She asked for and received permission to keep the horse for an extra couple of months, training it the way she believed right at her own expense, before handing it on to the new owner. And the new owner and horse got along well, so she figured it was a 'win' of the right sort.


To quote something many an old school trainer told me: 

"Sure I CAN get a colt walk, trot, canter, spinning, stopping, roping, bowing and walking on it's back legs like a person within thirty days. But do I really WANT to pressure and break a horse down that much?"


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Out riding today and as usual doing a little pondering, while being attentive to Hondo of course.

Anyhow, just about everything I've read says that pulling on a bit during a runaway causes pain and makes the horse more scared and run faster.

And I do believe what I read about a cross under being the least painful of all setups, in fact I don't see how it'd be anymore painful than riding in a halter. I believe the Cooks has a greater area of pressure than even a halter.

So it would seem that a Cook's in the hands of a novice or even an intermediate rider would be the safest for a runaway, given that even an intermediate (lower intermediate maybe) still might over react and cause the horse to run harder with a bit.

JMM=Just My Musings


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

> Anyhow, just about everything I've read says that pulling on a bit during a runaway causes pain and makes the horse more scared and run faster...So it would seem that a Cook's in the hands of a novice or even an intermediate rider would be the safest for a runaway, given that even an intermediate (lower intermediate maybe) still might over react and cause the horse to run harder with a bit.


This is why before an inexperienced rider is ever taken off the lungeline or lead-rope they are taught a one-rein stop. Note: Ideally everyone begins by learning to ride all the gaits without reins on a lungeline- so they learn not to depend on them and have an independent seat; this is really not something you see in the states though much. I think It's a better idea to teach respect for the horse's mouth and the bit to the inexperienced rider rather than avoidance of it entirely. You can only learn something by practicing it. I used to tear around the neighborhood in a halter and rope bareback- In truth that 'bridle' had about zero power over the maniacal golden oldie I rode who thought he was the black stallion- but at home I schooled him to the point that when you closed your knees and he'd slam on the brakes. All of the schooling I did was in a bridle and bit- it just so happened that my favorite time to go road galloping was the middle of winter- and cold buckles were something I really did not like so we would ditch the bridle and 'go commando' So what someone would see out the window of their car would be a bundle of coats on a scrappy appy with a single lead-rope just hanging across the wither and no sign of control that still managed to stop at the stop sign neater than they did- not to mention beat them there. They might think (if they were of that ilk) 'wow that halter works just as well as a bridle' but really it was just a prop and a parking brake.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

lostastirrup said:


> Note: Ideally everyone begins by learning to ride all the gaits without reins on a lungeline- so they learn not to depend on them and have an independent seat; this is really not something you see in the states though much.


I think that's one option, but not necessarily _ideal_. A beginner on the lunge is as capable of causing great discomfort to a horse's mouth as a beginner in the arena. Unless your point is that they don't get reins connected to a bit at the start, and the horse is controlled entirely by the person on the lunge. This option avoids causing the horse trouble with the bit while the rider learns to develop an independent seat. When I teach someone who is just starting out on a lunge, I buckle the reins into the stable halter Ds until the rider is at the point where I think they can try a bit - and then I prefer to use either a soft Happy Mouth type bit or a mild curb, not a snaffle (for reasons discussed here: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/bit-use-587762/).

On the lunge and bareback/bitless is also a good option for teaching more athletic people an independent seat very quickly. But, they have to be quite happy and confident to do it, or they will be too tense.

The lunge becomes unnecessary from the point of view of preventing trouble for the horse when riding students learn to ride bitless (and preferably bareback if athletic enough) first. Experienced horses can be ridden around an arena in their halters or in soft padded English hackamores until a rider develops balance and good habits. In the 1970s and 1980s there were a number of European riding schools who started their students with neck rings only, in a group arena setting, and they were very successful at teaching people to _really_ ride, mainly through balance and seat, and more quickly than the conventional schools.




> I think It's a better idea to teach respect for the horse's mouth and the bit to the inexperienced rider rather than avoidance of it entirely.


I think it ought to be avoided entirely until the rider has _reasonable_ balance before giving them a mild bit to try (and then I don't think a snaffle is the best option for under the circumstances, see above), and preferable to wait until they have learnt to handle a horse properly with a bitless option.

So while I agree that a rider needs to learn to handle a bit at some point, I think it should be done progressively.

That great story in your post about going bareback and in a halter a lot I think illustrates the benefits of learning to ride unconventionally. My bareback phase started when I was around ten and just out of a conventional riding school, and it improved me in leaps and bounds. We used to ride the horses in soft padded hackamores instead of bits when first going bareback, because we were mindful of the discomfort we could cause our horses in their mouths otherwise, especially at the faster paces, if we got unbalanced and reverted to survival instincts (i.e. incorrectly used the reins to balance ourselves off, even though we knew we shouldn't, and had schooled ourselves to dive for the mane in an emergency). We did a lot of trails bareback and bitless and even had young horses come along with us free once we got to Australia and didn't have to worry about cars (at that place and time).

There's a lass in NZ who grew up this way as well and these days she teaches what she terms "free riding" to people, including beginners. She's the lass who became well known for jumping bareback and bridleless, here's a clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxuqbZ0Q_9c

I really like this young woman's demeanour with horses, she is so calm and positive with them. It doesn't surprise me one bit that she has a lot of success with rehabilitating "problem" horses.

I'm not sure what it's like in other parts of the world, but when I went to gymkhanas with my mare, there were always bareback classes, including in barrel racing and other fast stuff involving lots of turns. It is possible that the increase in our society's litigiousness is making that a thing of the past though, which I would consider very regrettable.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

> Unless your point is that they don't get reins connected to a bit at the start, and the horse is controlled entirely by the person on the lunge. This option avoids causing the horse trouble with the bit while the rider learns to develop an independent seat.


 I think you scrolled over the


> without reins


 part cause that's exactly my point. I may post more...but its 1:00 am here so I'm off to bed.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

lostastirrup said:


> I think you scrolled over the part cause that's exactly my point.


Must have done! Sorry I missed your point (it's Sunday afternoon here and I'd just gone on HF to try to wake from a post-lunch nap :rofl. In which case I agree with you! 



> I may post more...but its 1:00 am here so I'm off to bed.


Goodnight!  I will keep my eyes peeled for new posts from you. I always enjoy hearing from bareback enthusiasts!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

lostastirrup said:


> This is why before an inexperienced rider is ever taken off the lungeline or lead-rope they are taught a one-rein stop.


I was told that a one rein stop during a runaway, (during not before), was how the stunt guys caused wrecks for the movies in hollywood?

That said, even though I'm in an area of old west cowboy country, I was taught and demonstrated on how to use the one rein stop to prevent a runaway.

Never been on a lunge line.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...Anyhow, just about everything I've read says that pulling on a bit during a runaway causes pain and makes the horse more scared and run faster...


What you have read is wrong.

There are at least two types of running away: a "bolt", which I reserve for "running in blind fear", and "a strong horse" that is running because it is fun and doesn't feel like stopping.

For a bolt: I largely believe a statement in a book by a dressage rider, which runs something like, "No one stops a bolting horse. They stop a horse that has stopped bolting." I think that is mostly true.

If a horse is running in blind fear, it isn't afraid to run into things or thru them. I knew a woman who in her youth was nearly killed when her horse bolted and ran full speed into a 4' wall. Didn't jump. Didn't swerve. Just ran full speed into it. She broke a bunch of ribs, both shoulders and got a cut that barely missed the jugular. The horse broke its legs and was finished off a short time later.

If the horse is in that sort of blind fear bolt, very little will stop it. Odd as it sounds, if Mia bolted, the most reliable way to stop the bolt was to call her name softly. When her ear flicked back, it meant her mind was functioning again and she would start slowing in a few strides. Most of her bolts like that were in an arena, and she had enough mind left to turn at fences. But a true, fear-based bolt is extremely dangerous. I have no idea if it is possible to create enough pain on the front end to startle a horse out of it.

A horse who is just running because they are excited is a step down from a bolt. Their mind isn't functioning well, but it hasn't entirely shut off, either. Since I spent much of my adult life doing electronic warfare, I think in terms of noise jamming a radar. A radar picks up the reflected energy that has gone out, hit a plane, and then bounced back. If you use a transmitter to flood the radar, it obscures everything else with a much stronger signal. It looks like this:










A more common analogy might be trying to talk to a friend when a jet flies low overhead (or someone uses a jackhammer, or a rock band strikes up playing). You might as well quit talking. At a minimum, you will need to shout.

A horse's excitement or fear can be like that. It floods the horse's mind and drowns out any communication from the rider. One alternative is to wait it out. The other, of course, is to "SHOUT".

Shouting in this sense is causing enough discomfort, pain, whatever you want to call it to get thru the excitement jamming the horse's brain. If the horse has the bit in its teeth, it will be very hard to create a signal strong enough to get thru the jamming. Bits speak the loudest against the bars and tongue.

But in the end, it comes down to "Can you shout loud enough to be heard?"

Training is a way of getting around the problem. If responding to a cue - a one rein stop, or two rein stop, or any other cue - is taught so thoroughly that it becomes muscle memory and doesn't need any conscious thought by the horse, it can still be effective.

"Spook in place" teaches the horse that the safest thing to do when scared is to stand still. The instinct to run is overwritten with "Stand still and the scary thing will go away". 

With Mia, using a curb bit to apply significant pressure to the bars and tongue just as she was gathering herself for a bolt would stop her before she took off. A few seconds later, she would begin to realize the scary thing wasn't doing anything. That is how she learned to spook in place - to replace "Run!" with "Stand!" After she bolted, it wouldn't work well until she got her mind back.

But like a lot of other horses, she could still get "strong". She had a competitive nature. Another horse going fast near her meant she needed to outrun the competition. She had racing lines in her and she bred true for competitive running. We were still working on the idea she could walk while another horse trotted, cantered or galloped past her. We had reached success with "canter past". We hadn't reached success with "gallop past".

But with a horse who is running because it is exciting and fun, pain or discomfort can certainly increase the cost of the pleasure until the horse decides it isn't worth it. If Mia got excited, no way were you stopping her in a sidepull. With a snaffle, she would stretch out her head, put the bit against her teeth and try to ignore it. Jerking brutally hard or using a pulley rein stop usually would create enough [pain, unpleasantness, discomfort, whatever you want to call it] for her to stop. Using a curb, with the pressure against the tongue and bars, worked without nearly as much force. It worked with my wrist rotating, which is vastly weaker than putting my back and shoulders into it.

If the horse simply WANTS to run, you need a cue that is strong enough to cut thru the excitement AND you need either enough training or enough nastiness for the horse to decide it would rather stop. And yes, the training for that means using enough nastiness that the horse learns it is better to stop than ignore you.

How much pressure, pain, nastiness, discomfort etc is needed depends on the horse. I suspect that answer with Bandit will prove pretty low. With Mia, it was pretty high. Some one who has ridden well trained & docile horses may have 40 years of riding and not understand that some horses "get strong". Some horses just find running a lot more exciting than others, and they thus are harder to teach to stop. Mia would stop with a feather touch in an arena because she learned she was going to be running in circles anyways and it wasn't that exciting. But she was an entirely different animal with an open trail going to the horizon!

Pain is not "pain". Pain is discomfort that reaches a point that the recipient considers it pain. Sharp, sudden pain inflicted on a horse won't stop it. Increasing discomfort to a level that the horse hears it, and then increasing if needed to a point *where the horse decides it is time to stop*, does. Doing the latter repeatedly trains the horse that it might as well listen and stop early on.

The horse chooses. The rider responds to the horse's choice. You never control the horse's feet. You influence the mind that controls the feet. A strong willed horse will need more influencing than a weaker willed horse.

BTW - a one rein stop is NOT how stuntmen flipped a horse. A one rein stop is a learned cue. It is NOT snatching the horses head around. I've been on a bolting horse whose nose was at my knee, and he still ran. The one rein stop, like the two rein stop, is a learned cue.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

My usage of the term "runaway" is for horses running in fear. I'll use fear induced runaway for future clarity.

I agree with what I have read from professional trainers. I don't buy the can you shout loud enough to be heard analogy. But thank you for your opinions.

According to modern brain scans fear just turns off most other brain functions.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...According to modern brain scans fear just turns off most other brain functions.


Hmmm...maybe it is my 25 years in the military, but being scared doesn't shut down my brain processes. If someone is shooting at you, it is OK to be...unsettled. OK to be scared. Not OK to stop thinking and functioning. When you lose 3 of the 4 hydraulic pumps in a plane and you know the 4th is on borrowed time, and you are flying an instrument approach knowing you could totally lose control of the plane at any moment...you still need to fly the instrument approach.

Fear is a continuum, just like any other emotion. It is possible for both horse & rider to have mind-numbing fear. It is also possible to be afraid enough to want to get out of the area quickly, yet still observe and respect a fence.

It is certainly true that a horse can be so utterly terrified that no bit, crop, solid wall, etc will register. But normally horses don't get quite that afraid. Mia would squirt diarrhea out the back, but still be aware of and respect fences.

Fear also doesn't leave instantaneously. When the mind starts to come back - when it is getting weak jamming, so to speak - it can hear a shout but not a whisper. I think we all have experienced a horse that will be guided by the slightest touch on the reins if calm, but that needs a fist around the reins when emotions are elevated. Mia would stop when cued from the seat...if she felt like stopping anyways. But if another horse was running nearby, to hell with the seat and to hell with light cues! Horses make choices!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The brain scans I was referring to was non-human animals. Humans have a quite a bit different brain mapping.

And I should have indicated how much fear. That would be enough fear to light up the mapped fear area of the brain. When that turns on, lots of other stuff turns off.

How much fear? Not sure but as I "recall" it was as "We're all gonna die within microseconds" type fear. Stark panic type thing.

Thinking about your "how load can you shout" thing on the way over here to check 3G at a remote campsite I'm setting up. (i'm on!)

That horse in CO got shouted at pretty loudly with the spurs. I know you didn't appreciate that and would never ever do that but the shouting loud mentality can lead to that sometimes me thinks.

I'm already 50 miles from the nearest grocery store and 18 miles from the highway. This site is another 7 miles back in the boonies. Got the solar power, cellular amp, and high gain yagi all set up and working. Looking forward to spending time here with my dog and Hondo.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Again, points are being missed here, JMO
The entire idea of s spook and bolt, is different then a horse that is already galloping across a course, becomes strong, and tries to take off, and thus how you use the reins or any bit differs
I don't think you need to be lunged, which is a very popular English thing, to learn an independent seat, but learn to ride with your seat and legs as well as your hands, ride with weight in your stirrups, which helps with having a firm seat, that has you more likely staying with the horse
Certainly, a working cowhorse rider, taking a cow down the fence and turning it, has a very good seat, staying with his horse , that turns the cow at speed
I`ve done it, enough to know you have to be with your horse

So, getting a bit off on a tangent. Far as a bit, snaffle or other wise, hurting a horse, when you are pulling on him, that might be true, esp if you are also jerking, but race horses run on the bit, and that contact actually makes them run faster
No, the point of a bolt, following a spook, or just a horse going at a slower gait and suddenly taking off, should defused, before you ever have a dead running bolt
THat means, you first have to have some body control on the horse, so you can take his head away, disengage hips, ect, and you never just pull straight back on those reins to try and stop the horse, as that allows the horse to lock his jaw, stiffen his neck and run through that snaffle
If you are going to resort to the true one rein stop, then teach it to the horse first, starting at the walk and trot, before ever tying it from a lope or gallop
Taking hold of a horse, with one rein, while controlling hips, , 'with a set and release, set and release, is nOT the same as simply pulling back on both reins of that snaffle, and does not hurt the horse
Far as a horse getting strong, at a speed event, you might need "more bit', martingales,use the pully rein,. etc
Far as those movies Hondo, trip wires were used at one time. Yes, on a horse not taught to give his head , or that has body control on him, all at once trying the one rein stop from a full out gallop, will most likly get you hitting the ground!
Far as using a bittless devise, for a novice, and thus be able to ride through a bolt better-nope!
There was a woman that went riding, with some people I know at the Ya Ha. She had either a bittless bridle or a halter on her horse. Someone asked her,'shouldn't you be riding at least with a snaffle?' 
Her answer was 'there are better ways of doing things'
They ran into a herd of elk, and long story short, she had to be air lifted with Stars.
Maybe same would have happened, has she been riding with a bit, but I sure as heck know that I get get control of my horse, take his head away, disuse a bolt, with a bit way better than with a hackamore or sidepull
In the old Vaquero tradition, horses were first started in a bosal, and part of that training including the double. This convinced a horse that he could not run through a bosal, which is actually very easy for a horse to do, should someone just pull back on that reins
My big stressed point in this entire debate, is to get that body control on a horse BEFORE riding him out, so you never need to worry about being on a horse, that just stiffens his neck and jaw and runs through a bit, after a spook, etc
the principles of body control, to be able to disuse a buck or bolt, in this video, seem to be so hard to understand, by many, for some reason
Would you drive a car out, without brakes or steering, and hope somehow you won`t need brakes. I don`t know why so many don`t apply the same principles to a horse!
You can take hold of a horse, for as much as it takes, while also riding with legs, until that horse gives tot he bit, just never jerk on ahorse, or you will soon have a jerk for a horse
The video, once more, on how to use that snaffle-before, that bolt is allowed to get under way, after a spook

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt7QnI0DMM4


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> My usage of the term "runaway" is for horses running in fear. I'll use fear induced runaway for future clarity.
> 
> I agree with what I have read from professional trainers. I don't buy the can you shout loud enough to be heard analogy. But thank you for your opinions.
> 
> According to modern brain scans fear just turns off most other brain functions.


That is why, you put body control on a horse to help diffuse blind panic, before clear bolting in fright ever happens-that, plus trust in your leadership, so if you say something is not going to kill him, he trusts that opinion, enough at least to dampen that instinctive blind `get out of Dodge`reaction
Head down, is the first step in helping to calm a horse, as head up, ears fixed, eyes staring, Next, you work him in some exercise that is familar, body control exercises that you taught him , way before hitting the trail, getting his mind back on you, and in think, versus reactive mode


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Far as a bit, snaffle or other wise, hurting a horse, when you are pulling on him, that might be true, esp if you are also jerking, but race horses run on the bit, and that contact actually makes them run faster.


The race horse situation is a very different one from the spook/bolt/fun run situation. Racehorses also generally don't run "on the bit" by the dressage definition, but with their faces at around 45 degrees up from the vertical, and therefore with the snaffle drawn into the corners of the lips...which detail is analogous to horses in spook/bolt/fun run situations. The difference is that race riders (and harness racing drivers) offer steady tension against which the horse can lean according to its own wishes, and if you look at photos and footage of races, this means most of the horses racing never have the snaffle drawn up excessively high in their mouths, and certainly, on the whole, not to the point where the lips and cheeks are getting crushed against the molars (which often have sharp edges unless the horse's teeth have just been rasped).

Whereas riders trying to stop their horses will be acting quite differently to that. Inexperienced or panicking riders can do significant pain and damage to horses' mouths by employing the reins heavily and /or jerkily - particularly with the so-called "mild" standard jointed snaffles, which don't buffer rider jerkiness and can be pulled far up towards the molars. Experienced riders from my own riding tradition will be trying for gentle contact with the reins and using mainly their seats and voice at this point.

I'm with Hondo's POV here re the discussion about pain and stopping. There are more effective ways of dealing with these situations, in my personal opinion, and I simply don't think it is ethical to wilfully inflict pain on the sensitive structures in a horse's mouth to attempt to distract it out of a run, plus from my own observations of riders and horses I think it usually has the opposite effect, and creates even more dangerous situations.

I think spooks and developing bolts are most effectively dealt with if you can nip them in the bud - catch them at the start, before the horse gathers up speed. In these situations I've found padded English hackamores and mild curb bits far superior to snaffles, and it's because they are far less likely to add to the problem by causing pain, and at the same time they offer you a much better chance of gently staying with the horse contact-wise (see link last page for the mechanics behind that).




> No, the point of a bolt, following a spook, or just a horse going at a slower gait and suddenly taking off, should defused, before you ever have a dead running bolt


Exactamento! 




> THat means, you first have to have some body control on the horse, so you can take his head away, disengage hips, ect, and you never just pull straight back on those reins to try and stop the horse, as that allows the horse to lock his jaw, stiffen his neck and run through that snaffle
> If you are going to resort to the true one rein stop, then teach it to the horse first, starting at the walk and trot, before ever tying it from a lope or gallop
> Taking hold of a horse, with one rein, while controlling hips, , 'with a set and release, set and release, is nOT the same as simply pulling back on both reins of that snaffle, and does not hurt the horse


Yes, that's where your traditions and mine would agree, Sharpie! 

I do think the running through the snaffle thing is pain-induced, rather than the horse going, "I'm going to do this so I can run away!"




> Far as a horse getting strong, at a speed event, you might need "more bit', martingales,use the pully rein,. etc


This is where I diametrically disagree. A horse needs a _comfortable bit_ it can work with, and at speed events etc that involve lots of stop-start, often that's not a snaffle. Polo ponies are frequently in pelhams, and this works better not because it's a harsher bit, but because it's actually a far _kinder_ bit for such scenarios (buffers any jerkiness, bit can't slip upwards in the mouth, less pressure on the sensitive bars of the mouth, etc). I think mild curbs and padded English hackamores are far gentler bits than snaffles, and certainly than snaffles with pulley reins etc.




> Far as using a bittless devise, for a novice, and thus be able to ride through a bolt better-nope!


I also disagree here. Even as a novice, I found it far easier to stop my horse in a padded hackamore than in a snaffle. I don't think the snaffle has anything to offer in such a scenario that various other bits, or bitless, don't do better, and more gently.

Your elk woman scenario was pretty analogous to the worst bolt I've ever been in (http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/worst-spook-585921/page2/#post7522354), and that's where everyone was riding in snaffles!




> My big stressed point in this entire debate, is to get that body control on a horse BEFORE riding him out...


With this I totally agree! Participating in gymkhana events like bending races etc can also help people get to that point. The problem with just doing arena schooling in dressage (although that's still pretty helpful) is that it's not generally exposing people to rapid transitions and changes of direction and stop-go-stop type situations or even rapid transit. Gymkhana events do that much better (but I think people should do dressage type schooling _before_ that!).


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think spooks and developing bolts are most effectively dealt with if you can nip them in the bud - catch them at the start, before the horse gathers up speed. 

Is that not what I have been saying all along, SusieQ!!!!!,and also what that video by Larry trocha shows!!!!!

I only put in the disclaimer of 'more bit, pully rein, etc, because, if you go back, I have had riding with seat and legs, mis construed by those that have taken horses on cross country jumping etc, and stating how in the heck riding with legs is going to stop a horse. Well, it won't, unless you first put that "BODY control on a horse, thus have ridden him with legs, getting him soft in his entire body
THus, the more bit, was partly for those that refuse to believe bits don`t really control horses
Here is a link I posted, just so you are clear as to where I stand ,SusieQ

Bits Do Not Control Horses


I disagree with you, on that mild curb being a good choice, and the following apragraph from that link, sums up my thoughts pretty well. I was going to drop expressing this entire stance of mine , as I was being flamed, but you force me again to clarify my position, as you seem to think I belong in the jerk, trying to out pull a horse,group etc!!!!

Now here is where I am about to get flamed and chided for my opinions….first, almost everyone agrees that in training, horses do not need bigger bits….the bigger bit theory comes from those who are either looking for a quick fix to a problem which usually stems from a serious hole in a horse’s training way back down the line….or….the bigger bit is used to compensate for the uneducated hands operating the reins or lack of good horsemanship skills.




By stating that race horses run on the bit-that implies with contact an don the forehand, as that is the most efficient way to cover a lot of ground fast.
There is also a heck of a lot of 'restate '. to pullt hat horse up, after that finish line, with jockeys often standing in the stirrups to do so
I rode a mare off the track, so if you are going to tell me that they have soft mouths, a good whoa, or any body control-sorry, I don't buy it!

=Any idiot that uses a snaffle the way you describe, better take some riding lessons The single jointed snaffle gets a bad rap because so many people do not know how to use it correctly-heck, they start out with two or three wrinkles at the corner of the mouth, ride with heavy hands, and then pull on the horse with both reins-yup, that will have a negative impact
You are from an English background Susie, thus most likley are not familiar how to use that single jointed snaffle correctly.
My niece, who takes dressage lessons in Ontario, came out and wanted to go for a ride. She wished to use my English saddle, and that was fine. Then she wanted to borrow some gloves-it was July!!!
I asked why. Her answer was , otheriwise the reins would cut into her hands-what!!!!
I told her if she hung on the mouth of one of my horses that way, she was not riding!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Come on, gymkana is the last place you are going to develop body control and asoft , responsive mouth. Have you ever watched Gymkhana. Know why it is referred to by many as the `jerk and spur class
See which bits are legal in games and no where else, including chain bits, gag bits, etc
Now, before I make the same mistake and brand all gymkana riders with the same brush, let me say I know that there are horses that run games out of body control, because that is put on them first, before ever running a pattern.
I should know, as I used to run games, going for all around hi point, on my horses that I showed in reining and western riding . Those horses were shown ina curb, one handed, in performance events, but I ran them in a snaffle
I have trail ridden with people that just gamed their horses, and every one of those horses ,was an idiot on the trail-jigging, prancing, etc
I once re-schooled a horse for a friend, that had been gamed, and that horse had zero body control , heavy on the bit, dropped shoulder, ect
Nope, I suggest people put some percison and slow on their horses -in class like trail and equitation

As one good horseman stated
you can always speed a horse up, but trying to slow one down that is just used to speed, is another matter entirely!

Ride this course, then you have body control!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjQlhqzwOY4


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I also disagree here. Even as a novice, I found it far easier to stop my horse in a padded hackamore than in a snaffle. I don't think the snaffle has anything to offer in such a scenario that various other bits, or bitless, don't do better, and more gently.


Are we taking `hackamore (bosal ) or a mechanical hackamore
A mechanical hackamore can exert severe leverage, and is not the same as a direct bittless action devise, like a halter, bittless bridle or true hackamore, used to mean bosal.
Yes, a mechanical hackamore can be as severe or more so, than a bit, but that is an entirely different topic completely!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Susie`:


I do think the running through the snaffle thing is pain-induced, rather than the horse going, "I'm going to do this so I can run away!"


Wrong, . A horse runs through a snaffle because he has been allowed to become heavy, has no body control, and has learned that he can stiffen his neck, lock his jaw and run through that bit, because the rider is trying to out pull him.
You will never out pull a horse, but you can take his head away, disengage his hips
A horse that has succeeded in bolting, will revert to it again, like any vise, be it rearing or bucking, unless, you make that attempt un successful, hopefully the very first time he tries to bolt
I mean, I have been in some pretty good situations where one would expect a horse to bolt, yet stopped that horse, not by trying to out pull that horse, but by body control, ingrained response,e sp to the word `whoa
When Smilie was just a long two year old, first trail ride, following the friends , whose arena backed onto forestry, she suddenly became very agitated, ready to blow, and my friend riding behind us, yelled `hornets
Seems the riders ahead,stirred up aground nest, hitting a log
I was able to check her head around and step off even as several hornets stung her
I mentioned the coyote that jumped out from under a tarped hay stack, as`we rode by-again, stopped a bolt by body control, and obedience to `whoa
I have not just trail rode one or two horses, comparing how they rode, but many horses,over many years that I raised and trained, on trails, and all rode with snaffles until I moved them on to curbs, and often i would go back to a snaffle, trail riding, even when showing that horse in a curb
So, I think I know how a horse is taught correct response to a bit, out of education, not force, and not much different, than having a1000 ib horse think that you can hold him with a plain lead shank and halter
The only idiot trail horse I ever had, was that race mare I bought off the track, who got btter with time, but never had that clean slate of amind that a horse trained correctly, from day one has.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

In Pony Club gymkhana (and all UK Gymkhana) spurs are not allowed and only standard single or double jointed snaffles - no twists. Martingales are allowed.

Honey (who we used a Dr Cook on) was happy enough in it but she is a horse that can get strong when jumping and she's way easier to hold in a French link snaffle than she is in the Dr Cook. In the snaffle very little pressure is needed but I felt I was having to put quite a lot on the Dr Cook to get her attention


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jaydee said:


> In Pony Club gymkhana (and all UK Gymkhana) spurs are not allowed and only standard single or double jointed snaffles - no twists. Martingales are allowed.
> 
> Honey (who we used a Dr Cook on) was happy enough in it but she is a horse that can get strong when jumping and she's way easier to hold in a French link snaffle than she is in the Dr Cook. In the snaffle very little pressure is needed but I felt I was having to put quite a lot on the Dr Cook to get her attention


Interesting. Just an off the cuff thought. You say it was easier to get her attention in the snaffle.

Do you think she didn't notice you cueing with the Cook's or just chose not to respond to the Cook's where she decided to respond to the snaffle?

If she did notice the cueing with the Cook's (you know where i'm heading right?) then why did she not respond to the Cook's where she did with the snaffle? Could it be the threat of possible pain or discomfort if the snaffle was not responded too?

This is just Harold being Harold asking his millionth question.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

So much of it is a guessing game Harold and each horse is different
Re. Honey - we've had her since she was just broke (and a good job done by a professional that I knew well). We used the Dr. Cook on her because she had a nasty ulcer in her mouth (possibly from something sharp in the hay or even in the chopped forage). She's a very strong bossy horse but not one that responds well to anyone trying to use pain in her mouth to control her as she will only pull against it, she's only ever been ridden (as in bits) in a French link snaffle
Ii isn't that she didn't respond at all in the Dr Cook more that she responded better to the bit because the cue (for her) was clearer. 
My son also rode her in an English hackamore and he thought she was more responsive in that than she was in the Dr. Cook


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

One of the first things they kept telling me here at the ranch, and still are, ALL HORSES ARE DIFFERENT.

Kind of like asking how do you handle, or what do you do, with such and such student in a classroom?

Well, there ain't no answer to that question without a deep, I mean really deep, look at the student.

I could never have imagined in my wildest dreams that a horse could compete with a high school student as being independent on their reactions and assessment to how they are addressed.

Horses are people in so many ways.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, all horses are different, and hard as it might be to believe, some horses actually prefer a bit over a bittless bridle
I will stay convinced, until proven otherwise, based on a life time with horses, that almost all horses declared 'not to like bits', either have never been trained correctly,or have been ridden by people that don't know how to rider with a bit correctly
I have lost count of the number of horses I started over the years, in a snaffle and none showed any sign of not liking a bit. I used to start them in a side pull first, then a snaffle and by the time they were 5, rode them with a curb (western) and rode them English in a D ring snaffle. never had to go beyond that, but then I don't jump
I found, by experience, that it made no difference in the end, if I skipped the side pull stage, so never bothered with it any more, starting horses with a snaffle
Some, as junior horses, I switched between a bosal and a snaffle, as you cna use either or in a snaffle bit class
Very easy to just ride a horse in a bosal, that has been trained in a snaffle. The converse is not true
Many people that start horses in some bittless devise, think that the horse should be able to extrapolate that learning to abit, when the point , is t, that entirely new pressure points are being used for the first time int hat horse's life, and he needs to learn to undertsand thsoe, in a progressive gentle training approach.
If this is not done, then the horse tosses his head, gapes his mouth, ect and is declared not to like bits
Yes, there are horses that have been abused by ignorant people , using bits, and thus have mouth damage that precludes riding them with bits That is a good reason to go bittless, but not because of some flawed generalization that to ride bittless is kinder and thsu some form of better horsemanship
I took Carmen on a trail ride today, using one of my jointed mouth curbs. I don't think I needed to take the slack out of my reins for that entire 15 mile loop-not when 3 grouse flew up practically under her nose, not when three mulie deer popped out of the woods-all I had to do is put a little leg on her, and never made bit contact.
Bits get such a bad reputation because the potencial to do damage with them, in the wrong hands, on a horse that lacks the correct foundation, is greater then using a bittless bridle, and more work has been done studying mouth issues and bits, while the work on studying damage done to facial nerves, the jaw bone, by bittless bridles is mainly un charted, esp if you throw mechanical hackamores into that bittless 'soup

Since all bits are being lumped together, might as well post something on mechanical hackamores, as there certainly are many horsemen opposed to their use
If you truly wish to compare bits to bittless, then you have to compare just non leverage bits( snaffles ) to bittless. If you wish to throw in curbs, then you need to compare those to mechanical hackamores:

MECHANICAL HACKAMORES

Why NOT to use? Most professional breed and performance horse organizations have rules about not allowing Mechanical Hackamores. This alone should clue reasonable novice horseman not to go there. Rules do not cause good trainers to avoid mechanical hackamores. Rules are in place because good trainers recognize that mechanical hackamores are bad training tools. Recognized top horsemen wouldn't waste their training time with such contraptions, nor waste their horse's potential. 

Mechanical hackamores generally use torque, a lever–action induced force, on sensitive parts of the horse's face to painfully intimidate the horse into complying with the rider's direction. The use of pain to command one's will is cruelty. Horses recognize fair and deserved corrections, and they recognize cruelty. Horses often respond in anger and frustration to painful cruelty. Cruelty is not conducive to building or maintaining a good attitude, nor a safe performing horse. Just because many horses will tolerate cruelty does not make it right.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Smilie, I feel you are condradicting yourself somewhat. Yes, novice riders should not start out with a mechanical hackamore. Your excellent points about starting with a snaffle just need to play out to the mechanical. I consider this a bit for the finished horse, one that is trained for whatever purpose it is intended for. For me, the mechanical is a reward for the trained trail horse. (I only trail ride.) I rode yesterday too. There was a lot of slack in my reins too.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A mechanical hackamore may or may not be harsh. Some have enormous leverage and apply it in a tiny area. One like a Little S isn't going to be harsh at all:










Leverage is over-rated. If you give release when the horse gets the right answer, leverage is totally irrelevant because horse's don't do math. They don't know how much you are pulling on one end. All they feel is what is on their end - and if you give release at the right answer, and don't snatch on the reins, then the horse chooses the amount of pressure. The rider merely responds to the horse's choice.

If you don't give release, or if you grab on the reins and balance on them, then you need to have the reins taken away from you until you learn to ride. But in those cases, leverage would be a bad thing.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think it would depend very much on the type of mechanical hackamore someone used - and that it was correctly fitted and how its fitted.
There's a huge difference between one end of the list and the other and if you add extra sheepskin to the noseband you can minimize that even more.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> MECHANICAL HACKAMORES
> 
> Why NOT to use? Most professional breed and performance horse organizations have rules about not allowing Mechanical Hackamores. This alone should clue reasonable novice horseman not to go there. Rules do not cause good trainers to avoid mechanical hackamores. Rules are in place because good trainers recognize that mechanical hackamores are bad training tools. Recognized top horsemen wouldn't waste their training time with such contraptions, nor waste their horse's potential.


Hackamores of all kinds including Mechanical Hackamores are legal for Show Jumping and in many cases for Eventing, both governed by the FEI and performance disciplines. Many recognized top horseman and riders use hackamores of all types and do not consider it a waste of time or their horse's potential. If you are discussing Western riding only, then you should be specific instead speaking for all all disciplines. 

I've asked before and I will ask again, why don't you source where you copy text from Internet instead of implying it is your own words? 
Horsemanship Blog : Just Say NO To Mechanical Hackamores : Kinsey Horsemanship


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

updownrider said:


> Hackamores of all kinds including Mechanical Hackamores are legal for Show Jumping and in many cases for Eventing, both governed by the FEI and performance disciplines. Many recognized top horseman and riders use hackamores of all types and do not consider it a waste of time or their horse's potential. If you are discussing Western riding only, then you should be specific instead speaking for all all disciplines.
> 
> I've asked before and I will ask again, why don't you source where you copy text from Internet instead of implying it is your own words?
> Horsemanship Blog : Just Say NO To Mechanical Hackamores : Kinsey Horsemanship


I ALWAYS STATE OR USE QUOTATION MARKS WHEN COPY SOME PARTS OF AN ARTICLE, AND MOST TIMES, ALSO ADD THE LINK FOR THE ENTIRE ARTICLE, BUT DO OFRGET AT TIMES.
The reason that I paste some parts of any particular article, is because I have found that people often don't bother to click on those links, as they often continue on in the thread, with it being obvious that they never read the link
I never try to take credit for something someone else wrote, and in fact, the total condemnation of mechanical hackamores , in that part I pasted, is not my stance
I was merely making a point that there are people out there that have the same pre concieved notion of all mechanical hackamores, as there are people that consider all bits to be torture devises, not used by anyone that has true empathy towards horses.

While I agree that a mechanical hackamore can be used correctly on a horse that was started in some non leverage devise, every time there is a bittless /bit debate or topic, there are often people that post, considering any bittless devise, directiona ction or not, is the same, whenin fact, some of those mechanical hackamores can be way more severe than a snaffle
Yes, I know, there are disciplines outside of the stock horse world, where mechanical hackamores are legal-I do watch jumping at Spruce Meadows

PS, I will practice due diligence, and make sure that in the future You will not think I am plagiarizing, and make sure to copy the link to any article that I have taken some context out of.
You will note, that usually I will follow any qoute from an article, with.
'here is the entire link'

I am sure, that at times I also don't always put in the 'rule out any pain, 'saddle fit, ect, when responding to a question on a horse that is acting spoiled
My apologies, downunder!

By the way, do not , at the same time,insinuate that I take credit for someone else's words-ever!!! That is a direct insult, and I do take strong offense!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

whisperbaby22 said:


> Smilie, I feel you are condradicting yourself somewhat. Yes, novice riders should not start out with a mechanical hackamore. Your excellent points about starting with a snaffle just need to play out to the mechanical. I consider this a bit for the finished horse, one that is trained for whatever purpose it is intended for. For me, the mechanical is a reward for the trained trail horse. (I only trail ride.) I rode yesterday too. There was a lot of slack in my reins too.



Hi Whisperbaby

My apologies, as I really did not clarify my own stance on mechanical hackamores, by just pasting that paragraph, and I do not agree with verything said in that paragraph, and should have made it clear.


I myself even trail rode in a mechanical hackamore, some many years ago,, as there is the convenience of allowing a horse to graze, without needing to drop the bit, and used int hat manner, on a horse first started in a non leverage devise, I agree they have application, esp if you wish to ride bittless and have that little more control that some leverage will provide- and there is no doubt you have more control, if needed, in a mechanical hackamore than a plain non leverage bittless devise

That is the reason mechanical hackmores are used-for that added control, if needed, as unlike with bit, there is no increased signal or finesse , and wwhy mechanical hackmores have application in events where a horse might get strong, and one can then apply that added pressure to other points , besides the mouth.
Thus, they do have application in events like jumping, and gymkhana, where i would rather see that contact on the face/nose, then on the mouth

My main concern, and certainly not directed at you, and people who first start a horse correctly in a non leverage devise, then decide to stay bittless, for that little extra control, should it be needed, but rather with those that equate a mecahnical hackmore as being in the same league as any non leverage bittless devise, not realizing that when they state their horse will not run through a mechanical hackamore, versus a snaffle, that there is that extra ' leverage/control that a mecahnical hackamore provides, at play.

Mechanical hackmores are good for giving added control, where a horse might become 'strong', without needing to get into their mouth , using the same degree of contact
They are not used in any western performance training programs, nor legal in western judged events, because they really are not effective where a great deal of finesse is required


My best friend had her pelvis shattered, by the the idea that a mechanical hackamore was no different that a plain hackamore, far as starting a horse.
No different then people who think a broken mouthed curb, often called a shanked snaffle, is synonymous with a true snaffle

As she also was older at the time, she decided to send her one filly out to be trained, by an NH trainer, who advertized via the radio, that he started horses without a bit, and thus produced colts that were well started in a month, through 'gentle' techniques.

About 4 weeks after that trainer had her filly, I went out with my friend to see who that filly was going.
That 'trainer', had his tack laid out, and I noticed a long shanked mechanical hackamore. I asked him, 'surely you don't start horses in that mechanical hackamore!"
He replied, yes, and it keeps them from bucking". Really?

He got on, and I could see that the filly was confused, as a non leverage devise, gives clear signal to a green horse, while one with shanks, whether a bit or bittless, does not
The horse, was certainly not relaxed, and when she became upset by anything, such a s the end door of the arena opening, he stepped off.

I told my friend, 'be careful, as he is only 'sneaking rides, and the horse is confused by that mechanical hackamore, not to mention, intimidated

She thought the horse would be okay, once she got her back, and put her in a snaffle

Second ride, at home, the horse froze after she got on, and apparently when she booted her forward, that horse exploded and bucked her off-hard.

Yes, that trainer did not ride her through stuff, and perhaps the same thing would have happened without her being started in a mechanical hackamore, but the combination of not knowing how to start a horse correctly, from tack, to riding, was the fatal mistake, and just under lined that anyone starting a horse in either a curb bit or a mechanical hackamore, really does snot know what they are doing

In the end, I agree that there certainly are situations where a mechanical hackamore has application, as in your case, just trial riding, but wanting a bit more control, only if you need it, then just a bittless bridle would provide, or in speed events, where one is better off using that increased contact on pressure points other than the mouth
At the same time, one also has to realize that those shanks have a purpose, and thus mechanical hackamores are no more suited for starting or correcting a spoiled horse, than a curb is


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have to disagree Smilie
We used an English hackamore on the OTTB that had been very upset by having his mouth hurt by someone riding him in a severe bit and it was the making of him - he was too strong and forward going to ever have been controlled in a normal bitless sidepull
We've done exactly the same thing with K who'd been ridden in a twisted snaffle because her rider found her too strong, the experience had left her terrible even in a French link snaffle, stiff, resistant, head up towards the sky, hollow neck and back, visibly unhappy and trying to bolt away from what she perceived as pain. 
She disliked the Dr Cook and was too strong in a plain sidepull but put her in an English Hackamore and she's relaxed, happy, rounded up as she should be and in control on a light contact.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_At the same time, one also has to realize that those shanks have a purpose, and thus mechanical hackamores are no more suited for starting or correcting a spoiled horse, than a curb is_"

Yet I'm not the only one who HAS corrected a horse with a training issue ("spoiled horse"?) using a curb bit. That horse also learned how to neck rein in a curb bit. And mechanical hackamores range from a lot of leverage to almost none.

The "snaffle only" approach puzzles me. I know folks who transition a horse thru a snaffle in a few weeks, and they don't have problems.

Horses don't do math. They don't know what leverage is, or the meaning of mechanical advantage. They only know what pressure is in their mouth or face, and if doing X or Y results in the pressure going away.

There are drawbacks to curb bits, and to mechanical hackamores. There are drawbacks to snaffles too. Advantages and disadvantages to sidepulls, the Dr Cook Bitless Bridle, etc. The LightRider Bitless Bridle hasn't arrived yet, but I'm sure it will require TRAINING the horse to respond - just as Dr Cook's, sidepulls, snaffles, curbs and hackamores do.

I cannot think of a single mechanical reason why a horse couldn't go from sidepull to this with just some training and a rider who doesn't snatch on reins:








​
It doesn't hurt the horse unless the rider uses it to hurt the horse. One can direct rein with it. I would love to know why it is mechanically impossible to train a horse to ride gently in the above bit without first using a snaffle. What do people do with their hands that make them fear riding with a curb bit?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> The LightRider Bitless Bridle hasn't arrived yet,


So you did order it. Looking forward to a review. If you start a new thread on it, post here also so I don't miss it. I'm interested in it but not yet enough to cough up the dough.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Bandit isn't being ridden right now. Had the rear shoes pulled when he arrived last month - no problem. Had the front shoes pulled Sunday...tenderfoot horse! It just seems wrong to me that pulling shoes would result in a horse acting lame. I took him for a walk on the paved road today, though (not riding) and he was walking better at the end. I think he just needs to get tougher feet and used to the idea that his front legs go all the way to the ground. :evil:

But the LightRider bridle was in Melbourne as of yesterday, so he'll probably be ride-able by the time it arrives in Arizona. I plan to try it with him and use it (if it works at all) for a month or so, then post a review.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I have to disagree Smilie
> We used an English hackamore on the OTTB that had been very upset by having his mouth hurt by someone riding him in a severe bit and it was the making of him - he was too strong and forward going to ever have been controlled in a normal bitless sidepull
> We've done exactly the same thing with K who'd been ridden in a twisted snaffle because her rider found her too strong, the experience had left her terrible even in a French link snaffle, stiff, resistant, head up towards the sky, hollow neck and back, visibly unhappy and trying to bolt away from what she perceived as pain.
> She disliked the Dr Cook and was too strong in a plain sidepull but put her in an English Hackamore and she's relaxed, happy, rounded up as she should be and in control on a light contact.


So, how is that disagreeing?
You used that hackamore to control her, where using the same type of control, far as contact, on a bit , made her afraid for her mouth, so she was able to relax
It does not mean , after she learned to respect the hackamore, she was not able to work in it on a loose rein and relaxed, however, it still does not have the same application, of say, a program where a horse eventually rides in a Spade bit, which could be extremely severe, on a horse not trained in that lenghtly program, or by un educated hands, but with both the training and the correct riding, that Spade bit horse rides with finger tip control, one handed doing very intricate movement,and that is what I use as finesse.
It is very possible also, that she was a horse that does not like that constant pressure that the Dr cook bittless bridle applies, however slight
Some horses just do not like that pressure from those cross under straps on sensitive bone with little flesh covering it
How would she ride in halter, or a bosal?
See, you say she was too strong in a sidepull, so does that not mean the mechanical hackamore added that little extra, for control, and that she just did not like the Dr cook, as I'm sure none of my horses wouldn't also
Once she learned to respect it, she was able to relax, as obviously, previously she was intimidated by a bit, used to prevent her from being 'strong'
Nothing wrong with using what works, long as you recognize as to why.
If you did not need that leverage, she would not be strong in a sidepull or a bosal


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> "_At the same time, one also has to realize that those shanks have a purpose, and thus mechanical hackamores are no more suited for starting or correcting a spoiled horse, than a curb is_"
> 
> Yet I'm not the only one who HAS corrected a horse with a training issue ("spoiled horse"?) using a curb bit. That horse also learned how to neck rein in a curb bit. And mechanical hackamores range from a lot of leverage to almost none.
> 
> ...


BSMS, Horses are very forgiving, and yes, you could get a horse to ride , just starting with a curb, but you do not get the same quality of ahorse, in the end, as one that was first started in a snaffle or bosal.
As you progress further in your journey with horsemen, and talk to some great horsemen, this fact will become clear to you, as well as the why
Rushed programs, like you suggest, starting with a curb, or progressing to a curb within a short time frame, produces horses with holes, much like Mia
You are using a refernce or western curbs and alluding to them as traditionally done in great training programs, that advances a horse to being able to be ridden completely on a loose rein, one handed, while staying correct in all maneuvers , transitions , etc, and there just is no short cut, as you suggest to produce such ahorse, any more than you can just move ahorse from entry level dressage to haute ecole in a month or so
The direct action devise, whether a snaffle, side pull, bosal, halter, provides clear signal to that horse, with amount of pressure used not amplified by using the same amount on a curb

Sure, you cna do some direct reining in one, esp a loose jawed jointed curb, and that is why one moves to it, after the sanffle stage, to be able to go two handed and direct rein as needed, to help the horse, when he does not stay correct , ridden one handed
Can you turn a horse, with a neck rein within a month, ride him down that trail-sure, but that horse is miles away from what is considered a horse solid on working off of that indirect rein-a horse that keeps correct body aleignment, in all maneuvers, ridden off of that indirect rein

When we had outside horses brought in, for my son to start under saddle, the first clue that the owner was not a very experienced horse person, was if he asked whether that horse would be 'neck reining' at the end of a month
That is the last thing a well respected , knowledgeable western trainer is concerned about
You teach that horse (western0 to eventually ride int hat curb correctly, off of that indirect rein, right through that snaffle bit stage.
You then , graduate that horse to the curb, when that horse is already responding mainly off of that indirect rein, seat and legs,while still in the snaffle
Thus, as first,you ask with the direct rein first, and back it up with that indirect rein, while keeping body position correct with your legs.
You then start asking with that indirect rein first, using the direct rein only as needed.
This is when you move to that jointed curb, which introduces the horse to some curb pressure, but still allows some direct reining as needed, to help the horse, until he stays correct without that help
Those that say the get ahorse neck reining in a month, would not be able to ride that horse, ina complicated pattern, one handed while that horse stayed correct in his entire body, and that is the difference to ahorse that just 'neck reins' (hate that term), and one that is solid on working off of the indirect rein, and sorry, there is no crash course to achieve that!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

this, si taken from an article by Larry Trocha, on starting colts in a snaffle, and why. I will also post the link tot he complete article

Larry trocha , and starting colts, and working with problem horses:

*Let’s start with snaffle bits.*

Most *colts* should be started in a snaffle bit. And, many *older horses* that need fixing should also be schooled in a snaffle bit.

To my way of thinking, a horse should be ridden in the mildest bit that he will respond to for the job that he is intended to do.

Here is the reason why:

Most horses will lose some of their *sensitivity* as they get older.
A two year old colt will have a much more sensitive mouth than a ten year old horse. The more pressure or abrasiveness the horse’s mouth is subjected to, the quicker it will toughen and lose its sensitivity.

That is why I want to use as *mild* a bit on the horse as I can get away with. I want to *preserve* the sensitivity of the horse’s mouth as much as I can.


Here is the link;


Horse Training Tips – Bitting Info | Horse Training Videos and DVDs


So, BSMS, if you really want your answer to that curb/snaffle bit question ans starting horses, do you not think professionals in the western training industry might just know abit more than you?
Horses are a lifetime journey, far as learning about them, and if you are un willing to listen to people that have made a living in that industry, well, you will retain yoru own pre conceived and incorrect notions


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

This also from that link, just in case you do not wish to click on it, and which is very relevant, far as answering your question.
From the link in previous post, by Larry trocha:

Generally, the horse should stay in some form of o-ring snaffle bit until he is well along in his training. Ideally, the horse should be taught to do *everything* that you want him to while being ridden in the *snaffle bit*.

So, if you want your horse to be a *reining horse*, you should teach him to stop, spin, change leads etc. in the snaffle bit. Once he knows how to work, then you can step him up to a curb bit. Curb bits are for “*refining*” the training that you have accomplished with the snaffle.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> It just seems wrong to me that pulling shoes would result in a horse acting lame.


Depending on the shoeing/trimming protocol, I'm not surprised at all that a horse would act lame after shoes are pulled. If you take a notion, it'd be interesting to see some hoof shots over on the hoof forum. Including solar and solar at an angle to show solar cavity depth if any.

Hondo acted almost crippled when I pulled his shoes last August. But it took a lot more than simple toughening up. Flairs grown out, toe callus developed, more developed frog, under run heels trimmed, and a lot of learning by me over on the hoof forum. He's sound on all four barefoot on good trails now and sound on harder trails with boots on the front.

Roundups crosscountry through difficult rocks is still causing me problems. But with recent knowledge about the trace mineral deficiencies in his browse, I still have my fingers crossed for hard stuff with only fronts booted.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> So..., BSMS, if you really want your answer to that curb/snaffle bit question ans starting horses, do you not think professionals in the western training industry might just know abit more than you?
> 
> Horses are a lifetime journey, far as learning about them, and if you are un willing to listen to people that have made a living in that industry, well, you will retain yoru own pre conceived and incorrect notions


First, while I like Larry Trocha, he also says his horses lose sensitivity over time, which is why one of his favorite bits is a thin wire snaffle:_"My *favorite* training snaffle has a thin, smooth mouthpiece that is 3/16” in diameter. I call it a “thin, *smooth-wire* snaffle”._ _I love this bit because it gets the desired results but isn’t harsh or abrasive to the horse’s mouth._ _I’ll use this bit to lighten a colt up for a few days and then I’ll switch back to the regular snaffle. After a while though, this is the bit I’ll be using to do *MOST* of the training._

_ I’ll stay with the smooth-wire snaffle just as long as I can. The horse will be taught the *majority* of what he needs to know wearing this bit._"

Horse Training Tips – Bitting Info | Horse Training Videos and DVDs​If I need a thin wire snaffle to get thru to my horse, I'm failing to achieve what I want in a horse. If my horse becomes less sensitive over time, then I'm failing to do what I want to do in horses. Mia became MORE SENSITIVE over time - and that is what I want to see. But then, my training needs differ from Larry's.

Second, I've pointed out that some folks doing it for a living use a snaffle as a transition bit, only for a few weeks, and they get good results. Those who haven't tried it - as you have not - are in a poor position to tell those who have been successful that it is impossible. If someone has done something, then by definition it is possible. 

You say curbs don't work to solve a problem with bolting. It did for Mia. And in the end, Mia was softer in all bits, not harder. But then, I tried it...

Third, if I have to choose between listening to experts - even if one assumed the experts all agree (and they do not) - and believing my lying eyes...I'll go with my lying eyes. Many experts will say curb bits create poll pressure. I cannot feel any with my fingertips. I believe my experience over the confident assertions of those who haven't tried something.

I notice your cut & paste didn't address my challenge - a mechanical reason why a horse could not learn the standard cues in a curb bit like a Billy Allen. They are JUST CUES. Teach the horse what the cues mean, and the horse then knows them. Be consistent, and the horse will respond. It is simply training.

"_The direct action devise, whether a snaffle, side pull, bosal, halter, provides clear signal to that horse, with amount of pressure used not amplified by using the same amount on a curb_"

Horses don't do math. They don't study mechanics. They don't know if 6 lbs of pressure in their mouth comes from you pulling 6 lbs on a snaffle or 2 lbs on a curb that amplifies the force by 3. It makes no difference to them.

"_Those that say the get ahorse neck reining in a month, would not be able to ride that horse, ina complicated pattern, one handed while that horse stayed correct in his entire body, and that is the difference to ahorse that just 'neck reins' (hate that term)_"

Since I'm not interested in riding a reining horse in a competition, my needs are simpler. Just as I don't need to teach a horse haute ecole in a snaffle, I don't need to teach it complex maneuvers for show or competition. I neither need nor desire the training required for success in either competitive dressage or reining.

Most western riders are in my boat. They think neck reining is simple because for us, it is. I move my hand left, the horse goes left. I move my hand right, the horse goes right. I move my hand slightly aft, and the horse slows. Simple.

Mia never did learn to move sideways in response to my leg. In an arena. In a tight spot in the desert, she'd get it done. Maybe that was because she was part of a team, and it made sense to her.

She couldn't do a roll back in an arena. She could do 180s all day on a 6' wide trail, if asked, and at a pretty good speed. Again, that may be because she was part of the team and it made sense to her.

That is what I want. If you want something different, have a nut. But just as I don't feel a need to put my horse "on the bit" while using a snaffle, I feel no need for my horses to do complex maneuvers in an arena...not as long as they can get the job done working with me in the real world.

Bottom line: You've never TRIED to teach a green horse how to use a curb. I have. I succeeded. Thus it is possible. And since I'm no great shakes as a rider, it obviously is not very hard. 

I like Larry Trocha. I've paid to take a couple of his online video courses. They have helped me. But I take what applies to my situation and leave the rest. I like Gen Harry Chamberlin's writings, although he despised western riders and I ride western. I like Littauer, who considered putting a horse on the bit to be the mark of an intermediate rider - and I don't want to do it. I like Tom Roberts, who founded a dressage club - and I don't do dressage. I like some of your posts, but we obviously do not share goals and thus will diverge in training approaches.

But I have a hard time accepting the idea that snaffles are THE training tool for all horses. I've met too many good horses - good for what I want out of a horse - who have very little snaffle time. Or none...because yes, some horses just flat out work well bitless.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Depending on the shoeing/trimming protocol, I'm not surprised at all that a horse would act lame after shoes are pulled. If you take a notion, it'd be interesting to see some hoof shots over on the hoof forum. Including solar and solar at an angle to show solar cavity depth if any....


He's doing better this evening. Almost no limp in the soft dirt of his corral. He did mostly OK on a paved road earlier today. He may be ready to ride again by tomorrow. Or not. I see no value in rushing him. 

His LightRider Bitless Bridle arrived in LAX this morning, so I may soon get to try him bitless. But it will be a while before I try him on a rocky trail, even at a walk. I agree with what you wrote. It is more than just toughening his soles. To do it well, his hooves need to fully adapt. Even after 3 weeks, his hind feet are just starting to adapt. I'll be careful of what I ask him to do for quite some time to come.

I think horses, over time, are pretty good at assessing humans. I want him to trust humans. He already does, which makes me feel much better about having swapped Mia for him. If he acted fearful of humans, I'd feel like I had betrayed Mia. But Bandit obviously thinks humans do good things for horses...so Mia's new owner is likely to do right by her.

Meanwhile, being fair to him and being reasonable about what I want him to do seems an important part of keeping his confidence. Like Mia, I want him getting softer with time. I want him being part of the team in the real world. I want him to fully understand that if I point him in a direction and ask him to go, that it is OK to go. And that, in turn, means keeping an eye on his feet and making sure I'm not causing him unneeded pain. Mia would have told me if it hurt. I think Bandit will endure it stoically. So it is up to me to watch out for him.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

bsms said:


> What do people do with their hands that make them fear riding with a curb bit?


It's not what they do with their hands. It's usually just that people's understanding of physics is poor, and that they believe the myths told about curbs. Also they think, "Curbs work better to control horses because they are harsher." That's because these people don't "get" that mechanically, a lot of curb bits are milder than snaffles, and give gradually increasing pressures at the mouth rather than direct ones, and don't get pulled upwards in the mouth, and that it's because of this gentleness and because of the extra control the horse has over whether the cue becomes uncomfortable, that horses are often very happy and responsive in them.

And horse people who think pain stops horses have a whopper of a misconception about effective horse training and should read this:

This is from the beginning of “_Horse Control – The Young Horse_” (Griffin Press, Netley, South Australia, 1974) - a horse training manual I highly recommend. If we still had him with us, this is what Tom might post.


*TRAINING PROCEDURES:*


“_That will profit you” - “That will profit you not”_
“_Quiet persistence”_
“_End-of-Lesson”, what it means_
“_Old Hat”_
_Use of voice in training_


Few people who set out to train and educate a young horse give any thought to the great difficulties that face the horse.

How many of us setting out to teach him have given serious thought or study of HOW to teach him: how to establish a system of signals or aids that most riders grow up with and accept as being natural, but of which the horse has no knowledge whatsoever?

I am going to ask you a question, and before you read on I would like you to answer it clearly – to yourself.

_Question_: “Why does a horse stop or go slower if you pull on the reins?” If you answer, “Because it hurts the mouth,” I am sorry to have to break the news to you – you have failed.

But no, I'll give you another chance: “Why do you jump up instantly if you sit on an upturned tack or drawing pin?”

If you answer again: “Because it hurts” - you really do need to read every word in this book!


_The horse stops – and you jump up – not just because it hurts, but to stop it hurting. By no means the same thing._​ ​ And there isn't any doubt: if jumping up didn't stop the pain, _you_ would try doing something else. So, too, eventually, does the horse. _These are not trick questions._ If you really believe in and act on the answer you gave to the first, then you think that all you have to do is to hurt your horse's mouth and he will stop.

On the contrary, the important thing is to let him know – to teach him – how, by doing what you want of him, he can _avoid_ any pain, irritation, inconvenience and discomfort the bit (or whip or spur) might otherwise cause. Good trainers do everything they possibly can to avoid hurting the horse or even letting him hurt himself. Our real goal should be never to have to hurt our horse.

_Reward and punishment _is often cited as the secret of successful horse training and undoubtedly both rewards and punishments have their place. But – we should seldom, if ever, resort to punishment when teaching our horse anything new. 

Punishment, when we use it, should be reserved for exceptional occasions. Don't think “Reward and Punishment.”

_Encourage and discourage_ is a better guide, as it drops the term “punishment.” When riding a young horse we alternate from encourage to discourage very frequently and quite often change from discourage to encourage several times in a matter of seconds.

But the term “discourage” still has the drawback that it _can_ include punishment; and we should discard any term that could include punishment as a normal training procedure. Punishment and teaching are “divorced.”

It is to avoid using any expression that could possibly include punishment as a normal teaching procedure that I suggest you think in the terms:


“_*That will profit you – that will profit you not.”*_​ 

These terms mean exactly – _exactly_ – what they say.

“_To Profit”_ is to benefit or gain: to be better off. The profit to the horse can be any reward or encouragement the trainer may think his pupil should receive – and it must, of course, be available to give.

“_To Profit Not”_ means that the horse will gain or benefit not at all. Just that. It certainly does not mean that he will suffer a loss or be worse off – as he would be if he were punished.

This is what is so important about these expressions – and why I use them. By no stretch of the imagination can “Profit you not” be construed as punishment.
_

It consists of withholding any gain, reward, encouragement and profit. That, and only that._ 



_*Quiet Persistence*_

“It will profit you not” means that the horse will not be encouraged to follow a line of conduct other than what we have in mind for him. We withhold any gain – which means we quietly continue with our demands, whatever they may be.


_We persist. We quietly persist with our demands._​ 

This gentle discouragement of “quiet persistence” is something that horse seem to find irresistible. Whenever you are in doubt as to what course to follow, mounted or dismounted, revert to “Quiet Persistence.” Your quiet persistence is the real “That will profit you not.” It discourages the horse _without punishing him_.

Punishment does have its place in the training scheme, with some horses more clearly than with others – but even then it should be used only occasionally. Do not revert to punishment when you are trying to teach the horse something new. It upsets the horse and destroys the calmness so essential to his taking-in a new lesson. So punishments are “out” when teaching any new lesson.


_*End of Lesson*_


_End of Lesson is the best, most effective and most convenient of all rewards and encouragements._​ 

What End of Lesson means:

When teaching a horse almost anything at all – no matter what it is, “End of Lesson” means a pause, a break, a rest for a while – or even, on some occasions, completely finishing the work for the day _at the moment_ the horse has made or is making progress in a lesson.

_At the very instant_ of the action that constitutes progress, the teacher ends the lesson – for a while, at least.

Ending a lesson constitutes a reward, an encouragement, an incentive to the horse to try to follow and understand what is being taught to him.


_*The End-of-Lesson procedure is probably the most important procedure in the scheme of horse training.*_​ ​ 
We use the End-of-Lesson technique from the first day our young horse is yarded and continue using it to the last day of his schooling.

_End-of-Lesson_ is always available for use.

Because it is easy for the horse to understand, it keeps him calm and so leads to the greatest progress. When the horse is calm, the most permanent impressions are made on his mind.

End-of-Lesson is of equal value to the trainer. It keeps him looking for and recognising progress as the horse tries first one thing and then another. He looks for progress to encourage – rather than “stupidity” to punish.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

“_*Old Hat”*_

“Old Hat” is another expression I will repeatedly use to indicate the horse's attitude to a previous experience. He (I pretend) says: “Old Hat!” whenever he is asked to do, again, something he has already proved to be not objectionable.

The “Old Hat” technique is literally used in hundreds of ways – as you will read later on. It means we do something (or get the horse to do something) new – and then before anything can go wrong or he becomes upset, we “End-the-Lesson.”

Next time he is in a similar position, he remembers nothing unpleasant resulted from the first occasion, and he remains calm. A few repetitions and he accepts it (whatever it is) as “Old Hat.”

An instance: we separate a foal from its dam for a few moments. Before the foal has time to become very excited at finding itself alone, we put them together again. Tomorrow or on some other occasion, we separate them again and once more put them together after a short period. We do this several times and after a while the foal ceases to worry. “It's 'Old Hat' - nothing to worry about, we'll get together again later on!” seems to be the reaction.

_This is a characteristic of the horse._ Recognise it and keep it in mind. From it we learn _*to repeat lessons rather than to prolong*_ them – particularly if what we are doing or getting the horse to do is exciting or frightening to him.



_*Use of the Voice in Teaching *_*(excerpt)*

The use of the voice can be very useful at times to let the horse know when he is on the right track, particularly in the early dismounted work. There are scores of things you do not want him to do on any occasion and he may try quite a number of them. To each attempt you gently say “No,” “No,” and you quietly and gently persist with your demands.

Think and act gently and kindly – for he is trying. Say , “No,” “No,” gently and quietly, but in a manner he could not possibly confuse with your “Purring” (pleasant tone of voice for reinforcing correct behaviour, “That's _right_, _clever_ boy...” etc).

The voice can convey to him “Approved” or “Not Approved” almost simultaneously with his action, and under all circumstances – mounted or dismounted.

There's no end to the number of things you do NOT want him to do and he may try out a few of them or all of them. To each attempt you should  gently indicate to him: “Not that,” “Not that.” Or better still, think, “Not that, Boy;” think gently, think kindly; he is trying.

Most important of all, when he does show the slightest tendency to do the ONE thing you _do_ want, you must instantly change your “tune” and substitute, “That's right,” or “That's better, clever Boy...clever Boy.” Then “End of Lesson” - have a rest.


_The really important thing is your ability to show approval or disapproval instantly._​ 

Two seconds later will be too late. Sometimes the youngster will have tried so many things that if your approval is late he will have difficulty in knowing what _did_ please you.

If you use the same purring tone always – and instantly – and only to show approval, you will find he relaxes the instant you begin to use it. When mounted you can FEEL him relax under you, and you'll be able to imagine him thinking: “That's good! Struck it at last. Now, exactly what DID I do to please the man?”



*A LESSON IS ANYTHING YOU TEACH YOUR HORSE – GOOD OR BAD*

Every experience the young horse has becomes a lesson. If what he learns is useful to us, we like to call it “training”or “education.” But if what he learns is a nuisance or dangerous, we often brand it a “vice.”

(Roberts goes on to describe how people unwittingly form vices in horses by letting up - “Ending-the-Lesson” - at the wrong moment, by creating situations where that can easily occur, by punishing horses, by ill-fitting and painful gear, by expecting instant perfection rather than immediately encouraging _small progress in the right direction_, thereby confusing the horse, etc.- and what to do about it when this has already happened. And that's only the start of the book – some basics, before meticulously covering safety of horse and handler, age at education, groundwork, lunging, early ridden training, teaching basic dressage, light hand-light mouth, impulsion, traffic, shying, spookiness, and teaching to trailer. More advanced training – higher-level dressage, jumping, etc is covered in the sequel.)



Tom Roberts wrote his books in his 70s, when he was too plagued by knee problems to stand in the ring educating riders or to work with horses himself any longer. Originally British, he had spent his lifetime training horses and riders on several continents, starting with the British army, where he became their youngest ever certified riding instructor aged 16 and worked with many “problem horses”. During the Depression he joined the South Australian Mounted Police and became their chief instructor. He also conducted schools of equitation Australia-wide, judged at the Royal Shows, competed in polo, jumping, dressage, campdrafting etc, and hunted. In 1950 he formed the Dressage Club of South Australia, and he wrote for and edited horse magazines.

Consequently, his books are a treasure trove of a resource for any amateur or professional horse trainer. The 202 pages of systematic training advice go through the vast majority of things we may wish to teach young horses, and trouble-shooting problems; and following this advice results in calm, cooperative, teachable horses who enjoy their work. No short post on a forum is a substitute for this sort of substantial reading. In over 30 years of training horses, we have yet to come across a “problem” horse who is not vastly improved by the methods espoused in this book (and relieved to be rid of its troubles). Roberts is by no means the only person who has written wonderful books to further understanding of animal training – but he is certainly one of the best who ever wrote in Australia.

Franz Mairinger, erstwhile trainer of the Australian Olympic Equestrian Team and Senior Rider of the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, and highly successful jumping rider in A-grade competition, wrote this to Roberts after reading his manuscript: _“You combine thorough knowledge and vast experience with your searching mind to produce a highly interesting and readable book: __but more than that, you give really sound advice based on the lines of classical teaching. Your advice, with the given examples of how it works, combined with your stress on patience and understanding, makes it a valuable help for any beginner. I am sure, too, that even the experts will find something they have not thought of before. To all those who do not think that they know it all, I warmly recommend this book.”_


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

And just as a post-script, for Sharpie:

"just so you are clear as to where I stand ,SusieQ"

You can't expect me to be interested in your point of view if you display poor manners like this.

The Dalai Lama advises not to give time and energy to the negative. I think it's good advice.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> I think horses, over time, are pretty good at assessing humans.


Now there's an understatement!!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Sue,
As you have relayed it, so much of what Roberts advocates is really quite intuitive; constructs, that as you work with horses, are observant and open to their feedback, you will come to on your own….natural if you will.

I will admit to unfairly dismissing the contemporary European style trainers. I have a new author to explore! Thank-you. :loveshower:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

For years, my favorite book on riding was Littauer's "Common Sense Horsemanship". I still love it. It is about Forward Riding, but it goes into much more. However, Tom Robert's "Horse Control - The Young Horse" may now be my favorite book. I didn't understand it when I first read it. I thought I wasn't training a horse, so what was the value in reading stuff about training a young horse. Since then, I've concluded I'm always training a horse. Young horse or old, I'm training and retraining it. I'm dealing with things others have trained into the horse.

One of the things I picked up from Littauer was that I needed to think about my philosophy on riding - what am I willing to do to the horse to get it to perform and what sorts of performance am I willing to ask of the horse? If someone wants to compete in dressage, or reining, or western pleasure, I won't tell them not to. Their monkey, their show. Chamberlin, whose writings I also like, was willing to spur a horse very harshly to train it to go forward. Maybe that is right for training a war horse, but it isn't right for what I want to do with horses. I don't want my horses spinning in ways that stress their joints. I don't want my horses to do sliding stops...heck, that is the LAST thing I want from a horse when we ride on pavement! I want an honest effort at stopping safely, not the fastest possible stop.

The approach Tom Roberts took matches what I want to do and be with horses. When I follow his approach, I don't get mad at horses. Well, not as much. I don't blame them. I assume they learned something I dislike from how someone else handled them, and it is up to me to retrain them how I like.

I want my horse to ask, "What are WE doing today?" Not 'what am I supposed to do today', but 'what are we doing today'. I want my horse to return from the ride acting like he had fun. That, to me, is the gold medal of riding!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

What Larry trocha and other trainers consider as lightness, is miles apart from what you would consider a horse getting a bit ;'heavier', and that goes for other well known trainers, BSMS.
It certainly is not a horse really leaning on a bit,and certainly not running through it, just not 'backed off of it as much'
It is very common in western training, if a horse becomes a bit 'heavy in a plain snaffle, to ride with a twisted wire snaffle for a few days, then go back to that plain snaffle, asp. This is standard, and what Larry Trocha wrote, is not unique to his western training program, regarding that snaffle, but universal in all good western training programs
Ride with a good western trainer, and you would not even recognize what they consider a horse becoming a bit 'heavy' and consider that horse very light and responsive instead.
I mean, I can give you links to numerous well known western trainers, and ALL, use that generaL concept Of Larry's-he is just more convenient to find on the web
Here is the link to Dana Hokana , on GRADUATING your horse form a SNAFFLE TO A CURB

Graduating Your Western Horse From Snaffle to Curb Bit

This, from the following link , based on Bob Avila's 'bitology:


3
Types of Bits
Snaffle Bits
Generally speaking, bits can be classified into three main categories, 
snaffle
, 
curb/leverage
 and 
hackamore
 and are designed to work on different pressure points.
By definition a snaffle bit is a direct pull or direct action bit, meaning that when you are holding the reins in two 
hands atop your horse, you have direct contact with its mouth. Whatever you do with your hands, your horse 
should do. For example, when you move your hand to the left, your horse will feel that cue and realize that you 
want him to go that way. 
Most trainers will start a young horse in a snaffle to gain the framework it needs to transition to a curb bit. Such a 
foundation includes lateral flexion, collection, transitions, responsiveness to leg cues and more. Again, this de
-
pends on the method of training the trainer uses. In the vaquero tradition of training, for example, horses are typi
-
cally started in a bosal hackamore.
Best if used with an all leather curb strap to prevent the bit from pulling through the horse’s mouth, O-ring and 
offset D-ring snaffles are great bits for starting young colts, training exercises, introducing a new riding discipline or 
softening an older, more seasoned horse’s mouth
http://www.weaverarborist.com/Documents/Bitology.pdf

We are talking two' different lanuages,' BSMS, because what I, and trianers like Bob Avila, Larry and countless others, consider softness in ahorse is light years away from what you consider softness.
It certainly is miles and miles away from a horse like, Mia, that learned to run through a snaffle.
You are not going to re write standard basics of all good western training programs, by any of your justifications, based on horses like Mia, which to me sounds like a horse with huge holes in basic training
Give me a link to some respected western trainers that advocate going to a curb, on a horse that has not learned all the basics in a snaffle first
A well trained horse, a bit heavy in a plain snaffle, might just be leaning very slightly on that bit in a sliding stop, but is light years away from a horse , like yours, running through that bit!
We can't discuss the use of bits, when you have no idea as to what is considered softness, or the degree of response, created through correct training. It is way beyond just ambling down a trail, on a fairly loose rein, on ahorse not bolting!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There's always something new to learn with horses because they all come with baggage from previous owners unless we breed them ourselves and never let anyone else touch them - and even then they have their own individual quirks
The one thing I have found with most horses that have become 'mouth shy' and evade the bit or ignore it that removing the bit altogether for a while breaks the cycle of habit and also using something that spreads the pressure between the mouth, nose, poll is better than switching up to a sharp type of bit like a twisted wire thing which is more likely to make the horse more evasive so it either sticks its nose in the air or tucks it on to its chest which is a harder habit to cure

bsms - unless you're desperate to go barefoot then it might be better to leave him shod for the riding season and remove the shoes when you have a holiday from riding - or maybe you don't do that in Arizona?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

From the bitology link in my previous post, just so you understand, BSMS, regardless of numerous diagrams you post, or using examples of bits being used incorrectly, esp the snaffle, the accepted principles of a curb bit, which is a leverage bit, and a mecahical hackamore is also a leverage devise. 
They certainly have a place, but on a horse with the correct foundation in a non leverage devise, be it a bosal or a snaffle


Curb/Leverage Bits
Curb bits are leverage bits that are generally used on more seasoned, finished horses and when riding with one 
hand. There are a wide variety of curb bits with different mouthpieces, different cheeks and different lengths of 
shanks. They work on the tongue, bars of the mouth, palate, corners of the mouth and under the chin (with the 
use of a curb strap). Comfort is key when choosing any bit for your horse. 
The longer the shank is on the bit, the more leverage you have when the reins are pulled. At the same time, the 
horse is also rewarded quicker when the pressure from the reins is released. A curb bit with a shorter shank, 
however, will not have as much leverage and is slower to reward your horse with the release of pressure. 
The amount of pressure applied by a curb bit is determined by a leverage ratio. To 
determine the ratio, measure from the middle of the side of the mouthpiece to the 
inside of the top ring where the headstall connects. This is the purchase measurement. 
Then, measure from the middle of the mouthpiece to the point on the bottom ring 
where the reins connect. This is the shank measurement. Next, divide the smaller of 
the two numbers into the larger to get the ratio. If, for example, the purchase measures 
2" and the shank measures 6", the leverage ratio would be 3:1. This means that your 
horse will feel 3 pounds of pressure for every pound of pressure you apply to the bit 
with your hands. The higher the ratio, the more severe the bit will be


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...You are not going to re write standard basics of all good western training programs, by any of your justifications, based on horses like Mia, which to me sounds like a horse with huge holes in basic training
> Give me a link to some respected western trainers that advocate going to a curb, on a horse that has not learned all the basics in a snaffle first
> A well trained horse, a heavy in a plain snaffle, might just be leaning very slightly on that bit in a sliding stop, but is light years away from a horse , like yours, running through that bit!


I don't care if someone else follows a different program. What works for them is fine with me. But saying X works for them does not negate that Y has worked for me and for others. Those who never try Y are ill prepared to say Y is impossible, at least when talking to someone who has done Y.

I knew Mia. You obviously did not. Nor do you seem to understand that some horses get excited in certain circumstances, and you won't train that excitement out of them...nor do you always want to do so. A horse may be completely relaxed in their home arena, but be quite a handful when competing or in an open area. 

You cannot duplicate an open horizon in an arena. A nervous horse can look at the walls of an arena and feel calm, but be totally different when the walls are not there. That second stage must be dealt with outside the arena, because that is the only time it happens.

If curb bits scare you on anything other than a finished horse, don't use them on anything but a finished horse. But since I've used them successfully on an unfinished horse, don't tell me it cannot be done. What I have done is, by definition, possible. Having done it while still very much a beginner, it also is obviously not very hard.

If a horse is having a problem with X, then sometimes going to "not X" helps. It breaks them out of their rut. It gets them away from their preconceived ideas of what will happen and allows new habits to form.

A mechanical hackamore might have been as effective or even more so at teaching Mia to handle her fear. I didn't try it so I don't know. Some horses DO respond well to something like the Dr Cook bitless bridle. It certainly would get a horse out of the 'I hate snaffles' rut...and once out of the rut, the horse might later learn it didn't hate snaffles at all. When Mia left here, we were using a snaffle for desert riding. I was seriously considering getting a good leather sidepull for her. If not, I was going to try a Little S hackamore...just to expand her horizons.

If you don't choose to try something, that is totally your business. But if you haven't tried something, then telling others it isn't possible seems a bit of a stretch.

PS - Smilie, I know enough about bits that your cut & paste jobs are not helpful. I've read books and then did the unimaginable - I tried different things and watched what happened. I fully understand mechanical advantage. I also understand that horses do not do math.

PSS - Bandit is doing much better with his feet. I'll take him for a walk in a little while, but he is moving much better this morning than a couple of days ago. I worried when I saw him limping, but he's getting over it!

PSSS - At her new home, Mia got to race flat out against some other horses - horses in better condition than her. She fought to lead for 2 miles before she couldn't keep it up any more. That may have been a good lesson for her. But I didn't have anywhere to run her for 2+ miles flat out.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> There's always something new to learn with horses because they all come with baggage from previous owners unless we breed them ourselves and never let anyone else touch them - and even then they have their own individual quirks
> The one thing I have found with most horses that have become 'mouth shy' and evade the bit or ignore it that removing the bit altogether for a while breaks the cycle of habit and also using something that spreads the pressure between the mouth, nose, poll is better than switching up to a sharp type of bit like a twisted wire thing which is more likely to make the horse more evasive so it either sticks its nose in the air or tucks it on to its chest which is a harder habit to cure
> 
> bsms - unless you're desperate to go barefoot then it might be better to leave him shod for the riding season and remove the shoes when you have a holiday from riding - or maybe you don't do that in Arizona?


Certainly agree that horses you buy, that others have trained, often come with 'baggage', and some might never go anywhere near as good, as a horse that was trained correctly right from the beginning
_ Know of what one that had her tongue almost cut in half, by a so called 'trianer,' who used a curb bit, to try and get her to do good lead changes_, before she ever was soft in a snaffle
Certainly, horses learn to try and escape the pain caused by bits being used incorrectly, including dropping behind the vertical, caused by people riding with constant tight rein pressure.
No one here, myself, or Larry trocha in his talk on bits , ever advocates riding with strong contact on a twisted wire snaffle, nor using it to fix a horse that runs through a bit. Afterall, western, any twisted wire bit or otherwise, unlike English, is illegal to show in, thus you only use it short term, and very lightly, while riding with legs, to lighten a horse that is a bit 'heavy' in a plain snaffle, and no where near ridden with any of the contact common in English riding
You then go back to that plain snaffle, not a curb, asp
I don't know, without having gone to some actual western performance type clinics, it is very difficult to try and bring across the concept as to what true 'lightness is considered, versus what some here see as a horse being 'heavy', obviously resisting that bit, running through it, etc-NOT TRUE!
I would never advocate riding with a twisted wire snaflle on a regular basis , or using it to fix a horse that has holes, or even craters in basic training-any more than going to acurb on such horses.
I also recognize that some horses have been so traumatized, or even physically damaged by idiots using bits, that they might never go well in any bit again, and I agree going bittless on those horse is ideal
At the same time, people need to realize that horses who don't like bits, fear them -have been created by people and their ignorance in using bits correctly


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS, no more cut and paste and quotes.
I was trying to help you understand the basic principles in good western training program, with those pastes, but now will tell you what I see, not meant to be critcal, but based pn many years training an driidng horses an datking lessons with som eof the best in the industry, and not just show people, but those that make their living in the back country
You can take or leave what I say, as it is not meant to be confrontational, but maybe to help you as you imbark with anew horse

You did not try every thing with Mia, beyond looking for that head and mouth to control her, which is flawed to begin with
She was not also a spoiled older horse with bit issues when you got her, but in your words.a horse that had little,if any training', but was very easy to just get on
Yes, ssome horses are more reactive, and take longer to build trust on, so that you can rely on that trust in your leadership, plus body control, with what is on the horse's head or in his mouth, being secondary, beyond being something that helps facilitate in those early stages, the communication you are getting on that horse, riding with not just hands, but legs
You said you had a 'professional trainer' work with her some, but as you know, anyone can call themselves a trainer
Having a fear factor, is not an excuse ever, for a horse to learn to bolt after a spook
You put that body control on a horse first, so that when 's''t happens, you are not just relying on what is on the head of that horse, far as control
There is no excuse for a horse, regardless of fear factor, to ever learn to run through a snaffle-not if he has the correct foundation first
Yes, some spoiled older horses, ones who have had their mouth damaged by incorrect use of a bit, might need a mechanical hackamore ,more bit, but there is never an excuse for that default, training any horse correctly from the start
How did you stop Mia from bolting, after a spook? I imagine with bit pressure, and yes, you can use less on a curb, go to new pressure points, but you have done nothing, far as really teaching that horse to rely on your judgement, and to respond to body control, versus any head gear, bit included
Mia might be fine in a curb, that controls her long enough until she gets that exposure where she no longer wants to bolt, but she can also learn to drop behind the vertical, and then that curb will do nothing
I would never consider buying any horse, where control of that horse was based as to what was or was not on his head
Don't get me wrong, I love curb bits and have quite a collection, but I use them for increased finesse, on ahorse that has learned all the basics in a snaffle, and that certainly includes learning to respect that bit, never lean on it, let alone run through it
Good luck on your new horse, who sounds much more forgiving and non reactive!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie, you really have no clue what Mia was like.

"_You said you had a 'professional trainer' work with her some, but as you know, anyone can call themselves a trainer_"

Yeah, and I needed to wait for 8 months for her to have an opening because she was just someone hanging out a shingle...

"_How did you stop Mia from bolting, after a spook? I imagine with bit pressure, and yes, you can use less on a curb, go to new pressure points, but you have done nothing, far as really teaching that horse to rely on your judgement, and to respond to body control, versus any head gear, bit included..._"

Odd. So why did she stop trying to bolt? I say it was because she held her ground - assisted by the curb bit - and then found out the scary thing would go away. Hmmmm....so instead of running, wait and let the scary thing run away!

And when I started using Tom Robert's idea of letting her work things out on her own with slack reins, you think she responded to "bit pressure"? I think not. I think she responded like Tom Roberts said she would, by accepting the freedom given and working it out in slack reins. When I trusted her (or at least acted like I trusted her), she started trusting herself. She gained confidence, which is what a nervous horse needs.

"_There is no excuse for a horse, regardless of fear factor, to ever learn to run through a snaffle-not if he has the correct foundation first..._"

Well, a number of outstanding riders have found using something like a curb or a mechanical hackamore can help with a horse who is either excited or afraid (to the horse, much the same thing).

There is a simple reason why a horse can learn to run through a snaffle: it works. They can give themselves relief from pressure. It is part of the mechanical design of a snaffle, which will go straight back in the mouth if the horse stretches out its head. There are some ways of dealing with it while remaining in a snaffle. And some horses (Trooper, for example) who will simply never try to run through a snaffle. I doubt the idea has ever crossed Trooper's mind.

But some will, which is why some top jumpers, eventers, barrel racers and others will sometimes use a curb bit. It is not harsher unless your hands are harsh. It simply does not allow the horse to release pressure until the RIDER releases it. And in Mia's case, it was such an effective training tool that I was considering a sidepull for her again - a nice leather one instead of the less effective rope ones - because her habit patterns had changed.

I guess that is the bottom line. I tried something and found it worked so well that I was seriously considering trying bitless with Mia again. You've never tried it with a horse like that, but feel free to tell me what happened to Mia did not happen. You also feel free to discuss at length YOUR diagnosis of a horse you've never met, never rode, never saw a video of...and slam a trainer who had a waiting list over 6 months long.

I see no value in debating with someone over the effectiveness of something they have never attempted. Or the training, human to horse and horse to human - of a horse they've never laid eyes on.

And thank you for the kind thoughts about Bandit. I really think he's going to be an excellent horse. I'm looking forward to trying him bitless. If not, then keeping him in a Billy Allen snaffle would be pretty close to bitless.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

I think it is unfair to tell bsms that his method was "flawed". bsms has always been open and honest about his experience and his accomplishments with Mia should not be diminished because he did not follow the "basic principles in a good western training program". Everyone that works with horses knows that every horse is different and there is no one set formula or program that works for every horse or rider. Horses are individuals, circumstances are different and bsms, as a largely self taught rider, found a method to safely work with Mia.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Apologies to BSMS, as the thread became blurred between what is accepted training methods, western, the way those bits are used, accepted in the industry as standard, by all creditable western trainers from performance trainers to colt starters, and to what BSMS had to use , on Mia, in this point, in his journey with horses, to make her safe, which is primary.
I do agree that some horses can be more reactive, and take longer until they are at a point where you can ride them out successfully , but learned over time, that can be achieved on any horse, through a good foundation, using a non leverage devise to achieve that
Horses that have become spoiled, horses in speed events, where they get strong, are a different matter.
Those that train safe trail horses, also believe in this basic
I should have left Mia out of the equation, thus kept it from becoming personal, but that was hard to do, as the two topics were blended together-starting a young western horse correctly (not an older spoiled horse) and a particular young horse, who sounds like an extremely challenging horse.
Thus, what worked to make Mia safe for BSMS, transcends in his case, 'accepted western colt starting/training techniques, as it made her safe for him to ride out
However, that does not change the fact, that if a green horse is not right in a snaffle, he will not truly be right in a curb, and needs more basic training.
Every reference to any credible western trainer will state that same fact
Sorry BSMS, and we will need to continue to disagree on this point, and my apologies for seeming to be over judgemental.
There is no doubt that some horses make better trail horses that others, and some will always be more enjoyable to ride out
With training, any horse can be trail ridden, but not all, as in any other event, have a natural disposition to being enjoyable to ride out
Mia most likely needs a 'job', as working cattle, ect, while your new horse sounds like one with a great potencial to being a horse you will have much pleasure with, having relaxing trail rides


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have seen a lot of people confuse 'lightness' in a horses response to a bit
"oh my horse is so soft and light in this"
With a horse that finds the bit so sharp and painful that its afraid to make contact with it
I actually own a horse that was like that when I bought her form someone here in the US and I rode one for a while prior to that - it was impossible to get that horse in a dressage/English (as in UK) collection or get any elevation out of her

As for bsms and Mia - Well I've followed that story for a few years and was one of the members who advised him to give up on her but to his credit he looked for other solutions to solving her problems and I think with a lot of success too. I think her spooky nature is just how she is and something a rider has to live with and work the best they can with. I don't think with all the training in the world that she would ever be truly happy in a single jointed snaffle either - probably because the size/shape of her skull doesn't lend itself well to that type of bit, something common in all of these horses that 'man' has refined so much over the years to make them appealing to the eye
The bit he found worked best gave him better control by spreading the pressure points rather than by increasing the pain factor in one place (the mouth)


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I apologize for being overly sensitive about Mia. She has been a huge part of my life and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what to do. At one point I considered sending her to the auction because no one else wanted her and she was dangerous for me to ride.

The main reason I swapped her was that we probably had made most of the progress I could make with her, and it wasn't far enough. The guy who owns her now is 26. He's a big strong guy whose back doesn't give out. He has the confidence of youth.

More importantly, she has a chance to become part of a real herd. The stallion insisted on integrating her into the herd after breeding her. She can learn things about life, balance and mixing confidence with caution FROM THE HERD and from living in the real world instead of a corral. No amount of living in the corral and venturing forth under saddle can teach her what a herd can teach her. No one does natural horsemanship like natural horses.

Transitioning her to a curb bit while she was fighting a snaffle was a desperation move on my part. That it worked well for her indicates it is a possibility - not a guaranteed solution, not a certain fix, but something a person can toss in their bag of tricks and consider. When she arrived here, she would get so nervous that she could cover herself in lather just standing in her corral. She had lived her entire life in a corral. Sometimes alone. Never with more than 2 other horses. When she left...she was far from perfect, but she had improved. A lot, actually.

Since she was my first horse, maybe "improvement" is as good as it gets. Most trainers I've read say their first horse was...well, their first horse. But as I look back on our 7 years together, I think what Mia really needed was not a curb bit. Not a saddle. Not a Dr Cook's Bitless Bridle. Not desensitizing. Not a trainer. Not an experienced rider.

What Mia really needed, IMHO, was what I could not give her: a herd. And a life. She needed a stallion. A foal. Other mares. She needed to live where security didn't come from corral panels and confidence didn't come from a rider. She needs to learn to be a real horse, from horses. Once she gets that, I think she'll be awesome.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I am glad that you found the right solution for Mia
Yes, that herd interaction can be very important, teaching horses herd dynamics and boundaries, that will transfer to their interaction with us.
I watched a clinic once, with Stacy Westfall, in which she touched on the importance of that herd dynamics, for horses, esp growing up. She had a young stud in for training that has a real attitude problem, that she could just not completely get past, in order to progress to 'real 'trailing
He was a very valuable colt, cutting bred, that the owner had paid $40,000 for, thus she was a bit hesitant to ask the owner to agree to the solution she thought would work.
She asked to turn him out with a bunch of bred mature broodmares.
The owner agreed
That colt wound up with a few spots of missing hair, but also with an entire attitude adjustment.
I don't know what Mia's full history was, being not a long time member, and did not realize you actually had her ,and worked with her for 7 years, BSMS, as that also would have affected /moderated my response
Orphan foals, if one is not careful, can become horses that demonstate that lack of herd interaction and discipline


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