# Join-Up or Parelli? (Or both?!)



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I tried Monty Roberts before I started Parelli. Yea you can get the horse to face you and follow you around, drive and draw basically, and you get an understanding of the drive line, but for me it didn't give me that relationship I was looking for with my horse.

How familiar are you with the Parelli program? Are you familiar with the new Horsenality chart and all the new things Parelli has recently come out with? We DO work with the horse's true nature, that of a prey animal, but for safety reasons the human does have to be the leader in the relationship. If your horse is pushing on your space and being rude about it we can not say, "Oh sugar, please don't do that." The horse needs a coil down the rope to say "Get outta my space." So in that situation, no, there is no compromise because my safety could be at stake in the future. But that doesn't mean I dictate my horse. There are certain things the horse has to understand and respect, like my space, but at the same time there are things I need to respect about him, like his instinct to act like a prey animal and to not blame him for this. I have to be sensitive to that. 

In a way you could say we get our horses to act the way we want them to.....we get them to be calm, trusting, obediant, responsive, sensitive, curious, playful, expressive, soft, light......you get the picture:wink: Who doesn't want that out of a horse?


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## Painted Ride (Jun 30, 2008)

personally i enjoy both methods...i use bboth everyday.i would love to see monty and parelli get togheher and do a seminar!


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I personally am against Roberts....sure his horse's turn out great, but I don't think his "Join-up" method is good.
Round Penning
(His method for Join-Up is mentioned in this link....it does not give his name though)

I tried Robert's methods before I moved to the new stables that I'm at now, and yes it did give results...but to me lunging a horse around and around and around until he'll come to you when you turn your back and follow you as you turn and what not is not necessary. I have seen some people do it to their totally dominant horse who wants nothing to do with them and I've seen them lunge hours on end because the horse will not turn in or follow them, and he was literally dripping with sweat and his black coat was almost white from sweat.

I am using Parelli at the moment and I am finding that the horse's respond alot better. 

How is Parelli artificial? Honestly I have seen horses do the 7 Games in the field and many other things.

I recommend Parelli because I have seen such a huge improvement in my horse.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I don't buy on to any specific methods. I take what I like from different real-life trainers, life lessons, things I see at shows and in training books, on this website, and yes, I do watch HorseTV (I think it's RFTV or something like that) which shows Parelli, Monty Roberts, John Lyons, Aussie training and etc. I feel that it's important to keep an open mind when training horses and not just latch on to any one training method in particular... Just my thoughts....


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## steph (Aug 27, 2008)

I agree with farmpony. I don't like to limit myself by only using one method. I think all of those guys have their high points, and some ideas I don't necessarily agree fully with. Mostly, it comes down to the individual horse. There is no way one technique will be able to work with all horses ever born just as no two kids learn math/english/science the same way. I like to just mess around until I find what works for each teaching point, for each horse.


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## Angel_Leaguer (Jun 13, 2008)

i agree with farmpony as well... 

I will take bits and pieces from people to do what works best for myself and my horse. I will tend to stay away from the big name trainers just because i think they try to put on more of a show then anything (JMO) but will talk with people that show in my disipline and observe.


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## RusticWildFire (Jul 6, 2008)

So far I've liked Join-Up. I don't have much experience with any of it but I'm working on it as I can. But like was mentioned above, I take bits and pieces and do what works for us.


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## Curly_Horse_CMT (Jun 8, 2008)

I agree with alot of people that are posted above. I dont just take suggestions/ideas from one person; I really enjoy Clinton Anderson and John Lyons, and any people that are training under their program. What they have is simple and straight forward, and my horses have responded well from it, weather it be from basic under saddle lessons or groundwork. 

I dont care for Parrelli, although I have had friends have great results with it. It just seems too glazed and glossed over. I dont need a certificiate that says I move up a level to be renderered "horse savvey." The games are ok, and it is fun to watch but not something that I would like to do with my horses.

Monty Roberts is a very intriguing man, and his teqniques are very interesting. I have never tried join up with any of the horses I own or work with, but I hope to in the future. I have watched video's of his work and have liked what I saw, more then with Parrelli any day.


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## RusticWildFire (Jul 6, 2008)

^^Agreed (for the most part). I love Clinton Anderson  

And Monty is really really interesting. Very inspiring as well. I'm reading his book right now. The Man Who Listens To Horses. Very good so far.


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## Royal Freckles (Oct 7, 2008)

I agree pretty much with the above. I have found that one method may not work with ALL horses. The more you know, the better you can handle a situation. I know for someone who is starting out or new to horses, there is a lot to be learned from the natural horsemanship trainers, which ever one you may choose. As you grow and learn, you will find things you like, and dont like, or things that work better for you or your horse.

I know Parelli specifically states when you are learning their program, or using it to work your horse, they say do only theirs and no one elses. The theory being that you need to follow the system to get the result.

But as I said, as you go and learn and work with your horse (or horses) most people will tweak techniques to suit their own personal needs and style.


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## WildFeathers (Sep 2, 2007)

I love Monty Robert's methods and plan on going to California to become a M R certified trainer. I agree, though they may be very beneficial and completely good, I think that artificial is a good word when comparing Parelli to Monty Robert's methods. It sounds harsh, I'm not trying to sound harsh, I just think that while Parelli may be great and awesome, Monty is better.:wink:


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## WildFeathers (Sep 2, 2007)

Ok let me make an amendment to what I just said: Of course I don't think that one "method" of anything works with all horses. It is the way of thinking that I agree with so much.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Well, I'll challenge the idea that Parelli won't work with every horse:wink: lol. Parelli will work with every horse. Parelli will not work with every person. It will work for every horse because it's based on HORSE psychology and how horses play with each other and based on dominance games they play with each other. Parelli will not work with every person because some people have huge egos and don't want to let it go, they are closed minded, they are afraid of change, they don't want to admit they are wrong because it's so much easier to label and blame the horse, they are afraid of other people's opinions, and a bunch more reasons that I will choose not to post. Some people just flat out don't care enough about the horse and his opinions and thoughts. 

My warmblood is a huge example of how Parelli works even with horses with extreme behavioral problems. This horse came to me a labeled biter, kicker, man hater, was said to be dangerous, vicious and unpredictable, would charge at you when in his stall, would rear when asked to canter under saddle, would bite and strike when given a shot....the list goes on. He intimidated everyone at the barn. He was going to be scheduled to be put down if he hadn't found a home soon. 

Seven months later I'm riding this horse bareback with just a halter out in a corn field, playing at liberty with him in the pasture, cantering him in the field on a completely loose rein, he will come from a canter to a walk and then back up without reins....the list goes on. Shots are now a mild issue. He does not bite or strike and it's over and done with quickly. 

So (folds arms, lol) I still stand by my opinion that Parelli will work for ANY horse, but it WON'T work for every person, unfortunately.


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## Andi (Aug 20, 2008)

I am somewhat familiar with both. With my first horse I was into Parelli a bit before that games (he had this book out called Natural Horsemanship, it was kinda before it got all main stream) and that worked pretty well with the pony I had then. I liked the way it was done with all the qualities of a trainer and the horse, it was quite different to the Parelli I see today. I have met them both (they were both at this horse thing down in Aus a couple of years back) which was really cool. As a person I liked Monty better, at the time that I met Parelli I thought he was just that bit too sold out. It seemed to be more about the image than the horses. Also when I got into horses I had to shop everywhere for a long rope like her uses, yet now they have "carrot sticks" and ropes everywhere that cost a fortune, and to me that isn't really horses, or it is but not what they should be. 

I think that these two methods are compared way too much. They are quite different. For me Monty Roberts is good when you get a new horse and you're getting used to it. Its good for when you need a bit of reinforcement and such. Where as Parelli is a lot more further on, it focuses a lot on handling that horse and doing things with him when you're reasonably familiar. 

I don't use any set training method with mine, I just like to read ALOT, as much as I can, any new horse book I can get my hands on I read straight through (I read superfast though). I feel that if you read heaps you can combine it all depending on what suits at the moment. 

I like each Parelli and Roberts but for different reasons, I think they are best used along side each other though.


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## Andi (Aug 20, 2008)

Also, I saw a book by Clinton Anderson the other day, would have bought it if it weren't for the hefty price tag. 

Whats he like? Any good? Worth looking at?


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## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

I like to take from everywhere I find, and if it works with me and my horses, then I use it.
However I'm a big fan of Join Up, I use it with my horses and have found it to be a valuable tool. I personally don't like Parelli, have seen some horses completely scared out of their minds by some of the stages and 'games', and the owners continuing as if they're not doing anything wrong.
Of course I understand, used correctly it may compliment a rider and horse well. But since I never planned on being able to ride my horses without a bridle and saddle anyway, I don't really pay much attention to Parelli... (again that is my opinion on it, I understand there is more to Parelli but am not really interested).
x


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I've never seen Monty Roberts, but would be interested. I used CA methods and was somewhat happy. They work, but not on every horse equally in my opinion. Worked well on my bossy qh, and not as well on my paint. I think John Lyons has nice ideas about the training. As for Parelli I too think it's artificial (and I also found it to be plain boring to watch as well as play those games).


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Andi said:


> Also, I saw a book by Clinton Anderson the other day, would have bought it if it weren't for the hefty price tag.
> 
> Whats he like? Any good? Worth looking at?


I bought the book and it was horrible. CA was a past Parelli student actually.
Way too many of this things are Parelli stuff....but he treats all horses the same...like he'd treat a horse that's afraid of everything the same as a horse that is dangerously dominant. How could you possibly treat those two the same?


And I agree 100% with Spirithorse. Parelli can work for every horse, but not for every person.




> I personally don't like Parelli, have seen some horses completely scared out of their minds by some of the stages and 'games', and the owners continuing as if they're not doing anything wrong.


Then you were watching someone who does not know how to do Parelli. Also remember...there are the chicken horses that will flee from everything and that is afraid of it's evil black-hole eating horse shadow (hope that made since...trying to be funny lol). A true Parelli student knows how to retreat at the proper time without causing the horse any trama.


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## Dumas'_Grrrl (Apr 2, 2008)

Parelli may be great but I have found that there is more than one way to "skin a cat". I really couldn't get past the hefty pricetag. I like Monty Roberts and John Lyons. I have read books from both of them. I find a lot of working with horses is common sence and just slowing down long enough to understand what does and doesn't work with the horse in front of you. 

*I'm not bashing Parelli...It was simply too expensive for me to justify the program. I am glad that Spirithorse and Sonny have had great success with it. *


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Quote:
I personally don't like Parelli, have seen some horses completely scared out of their minds by some of the stages and 'games', and the owners continuing as if they're not doing anything wrong. 
Then you were watching someone who does not know how to do Parelli. Also remember...there are the chicken horses that will flee from everything and that is afraid of it's evil black-hole eating horse shadow (hope that made since...trying to be funny lol). A true Parelli student knows how to retreat at the proper time without causing the horse any trama. 

This is where I always get into the debate and this is where, with ANY training method you have the HUMAN ERROR FACTOR. I've seen tons of "Parelli" certified people that do things wrong. They just do NOT understand what they are doing and they end up causing alot of harm. But I will admit, I've seen Parelli people that have had really good results.

I am just not a person that latches on to only one method. On that note about chicken horses... I must say, I have seen some! LOL.. I had a giant blow up soccer ball that I tossed into the paddock for Riley to play with (My 2 year old) and it SHOCKED me how my other nearly unspookable horses behaved! They were chickens, Riley was runny around the paddock stomping on the ball and tossing it around and shaking it and the old boys were running from him! It was HILARIOUS... But then I took the ball and I carried it to my old pal Pistol (who has been there done that been to He## and back...) He actually ran from me for a minute! BUT, he trusts me. Enough that he let me pet him while holding the ball and then let me run it all over his body and toss it in the air and what not, he trusts me. Because HE trusts me, the other idiots in the paddock let me pet them and touch them with the ball. They took that from his trust. I notice they watch the older boys, especially the mares, if it's ok with the older boys, they never question.... 

I geuss that was off subject. Sorry about that.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I agree that there is more than one way to "skin a cat." There are a lot of good horseman and woman out there that offer the horse a pretty good deal. But I always ask myself, "What are they missing? Is this truly THE best deal for the horse?" I think that if you are truly dedicated to getting your HORSEMANSHIP down to an art this is a question you should ask yourself. If you do then that means you are wanting to put your horse first in every manner. You want the best for the horse. But in all honesty, I can watch other clinicians, big name or not, and spot holes in their program. Like Sonny said about Clinton, he treats every horse the same. You can not do that. I know some people say that Parelli is guilty of this too, but those people obviously don't know much about the program. 

I actually stopped parelli altogether for a few months. I went to a clinic of another clinician, not one of the big name ones, and the way he put things put doubt in my head about what I had been doing. Unfortunately I bought into his nonsense and my relationship suffered. I did his exercises, on the ground and riding, I e-mailed him a lot, took a lesson with him.....and my horse stopped running to me, his attitude became grumpy, he didn't want to play, he pretty much didn't want anything to do with me. So I started Parelli again and of course my horse started running to me again and everything was back to normal. We were having fun again.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

The different Parelli instructors that do the assessments have different views of who to pass. I know some that will really pass anyone as long as they have the general idea...where as there are some that will fail you if you don't do it perfectly. 
So it depends on who assessed them.

I tried Monty Roberts, and Clinton Anderson's NH, and my horse got worse behaviour wise...but when I went back to Parelli he straightened out perfectly.

Yeah the pricetag is big, but they don't say you have to buy their stuff. I find that all their stuff is better quality than the off brand stuff. I bought a "Handy Stick" (take off of the CA Handy Stick, and the Parelli carrot stick) for $10. It broke within 2 months...where as my BO has the original carrot sticks (with the extremely thick string) and it has lasted 5 years if not more.
As long as it lasts long, I'm fine paying the price. I'm not going to go out and buy their hackamore...because I can just use my 22 foot long lead and their Parelli rope halter, tie it in the same way and bingo...I have their hackamore. 

Haha...Farmpony, you didn't record that?!?!?!
We had one horse at the last stables that would start hyperventalating (seriously) and would start shaking if you walked into the stall with a blood-sucking brush....or anything really. He was afraid of birds, his shadow, balls, crops, whips, the plastic grain bags, the sound the grain made when it was poured into the grain bucket, and my list can go on.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

The girl that rides Blue for me did w/ her cell phone. I'll try to get it from her... All I got was a really blurry picture...


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

We had lessons last night. We took a large soccer ball and let Joshua smell it, look at it, and touch it. We then touched his body with it. Well, at first he was kind of scared and more than a little unsure. Within a short time, with my daughter on Joshua, we were playing hot potato and catch with that ball. We use things like swim noodles in the arena and place ear plugs on his face(you know the kind attached together with a little string). Now, some horses take more time to get used to these things but this helps him get used to scary and strange things. I think it helps make a safer trail ride. Also, if my daughter decides to show, Joshua will be less likely to spook at all the strange stuff he'll encounter.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Joshie said:


> We had lessons last night. We took a large soccer ball and let Joshua smell it, look at it, and touch it. We then touched his body with it. Well, at first he was kind of scared and more than a little unsure. Within a short time, with my daughter on Joshua, we were playing hot potato and catch with that ball. We use things like swim noodles in the arena and place ear plugs on his face(you know the kind attached together with a little string). Now, some horses take more time to get used to these things but this helps him get used to scary and strange things. I think it helps make a safer trail ride. Also, if my daughter decides to show, Joshua will be less likely to spook at all the strange stuff he'll encounter.


That's very true... The reason I threw the ball in the paddock in the first place was because my 5 son year old kept kicking it across the arena while I was riding in it and Riley, my 2 year old kept wanting to go to it. So I rode him over to it and he picked it up...so I thought it'd be a fun toy for him. I never expected my old boys to be such wuss's!


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## RusticWildFire (Jul 6, 2008)

I posted a thing about this before but I only got one response so I'm going to ask it again here. Not trying to steal anyones thunder but this thread sort of has to do with it hah! has anyone used the dully halter? Any thoughts on it?? I'm looking at getting one but I want to know what people think.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I put a ball in field with my two. They didn't care AT ALL about it. No fear, no excitement, nothing. My paint generally only cares about dragging the huge water bucket around. :???:


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## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> And I agree 100% with Spirithorse. Parelli can work for every horse, but not for every person.


I'm so glad it works for you... and that statement is right... doesn't work for every person... and I'm one of them haha! I think if whatever you are doing with your horse and it works, then thats the best training to use.
I agree that Parelli is incredibly expensive. But then again everything these days seem to be lol.
x


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I never used Monty's halter....looked to mechanical to me, if that is the right word to use. I like something light and simple on my horse's head, to encourage lightness so when he does the right thing he doesn't have this heavy weight on his head not giving him a really quick release. But that's just me.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

The only thing that I've used of Monty Roberts was the join-up and I thought it was stupid and it did not help my horse at all.

$44 bucks for that ugly/bulky nylon halter by Roberts? And I thought Parelli was expensive :shock:


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

LOL Jenny! Very true.


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## RusticWildFire (Jul 6, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> The only thing that I've used of Monty Roberts was the join-up and I thought it was stupid and it did not help my horse at all.
> 
> $44 bucks for that ugly/bulky nylon halter by Roberts? And I thought Parelli was expensive :shock:




Well thank you for that. I was respectful of your Parelli stuff...


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I didn't mean to be rude RWF in any way....just made the comment that I thought it was kinda expensive


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

RusticWildFire said:


> has anyone used the dully halter? Any thoughts on it?? I'm looking at getting one but I want to know what people think.


I looked it up. It seems good. I personally like it better than using a chain over the nose (though I do not own the Dully halter, just going by how it looks)

$44-isn't really all that expensive. (Here on Dover Saddlery, it is being sold for $39.50)

I also feel that it is better than this halter

Just as an interesting piece of information... at the Dover price, it's 43 cents *cheaper* than the Parelli rope halter....


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## Midwest Paint (Oct 21, 2008)

*I do enjoy using Parelli..*

I tend to mix various styles and come out with a combination where I get the best natural effects. I do like Parelli, but in my opinion, a person may have to search out other avenues to complete some tasks as not all horses and people respond or mesh well with just one training method. 

As for the halter.. The links that i clicked on, and viewed, seem pretty much the same as a common flat halter with minor changes. Again, only my thought, but for $44.. If it works for you. I am a tried and true sort, and a general rope halter is where I get the absolute best results. It still amazes me that such a simple design can be so effective and surpass so many mechanical and "new design" types!


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## RusticWildFire (Jul 6, 2008)

Okay, Thanks for the input everyone!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

You know, I've gotta say, I'm impressed that a topic with the word Parelli in his hasn't turned into a flame fest! I think we are all doing pretty well, don't you think? lol.


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## Curly_Horse_CMT (Jun 8, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> The only thing that I've used of Monty Roberts was the join-up and I thought it was stupid and it did not help my horse at all.
> 
> $44 bucks for that ugly/bulky nylon halter by Roberts? And I thought Parelli was expensive :shock:


 
Parrelli has rediculous stuff for outrageous amounts. The "natural horsemanship bridle?" come on...and his rope halters? I could make one of those for so much cheaper.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

....Well... 

My trainer LOVES to use these rope halters. They arent "Parelli". I mean, Parelli sells a version, I just looked it up and the prices are pretty comparable to the version Rods sells, although I found them at really affordable prices at discount places. They are a really good training halter, horses learn about pressure and release with them.

Professional's Choice Clinician Rope Halter

Horse Supplies & Horse Tack - Horse.com

I did find this "control halter", I'm not sure if it does what the Monty Roberts halter does or not, but it's only $14

Control Halter - Poll Strap - Horse.com

I wish I could do a comparison but I just use regular nylon or leather halters. I only use my chain for showing and that's becuase you are supposed too....


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

SonnyWimps said:


> The only thing that I've used of Monty Roberts was the join-up and I thought it was stupid and it did not help my horse at all.





I have used join-up with MANY many horses, and it has helped immensely. Getting them to turn INTO you and listen to your body helps a lot. I've turned a horse that was pretty much a bronc into a trail guide horse using a lot of this technique. It took a lot of work, but it was well worth it, and I found it helped a ton. 
My trainer does join-up with all of her horses, and strongly believes it helps. 
Sonny, perhaps you weren't using the technique properly, and that's why it didn't help?
The idea is that you get the horse responding to very subtle cues to change gait, change direction (turning towards you, not showing his butt), and stay on the outside of the circle until you ask him to come in. The join-up part works very well to connect with the horse.


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## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

I agree JustDressageIt - my instructor was the one who taught me how to do join up, what to look for etc etc. It's helped every horse I've done it with, especially with my wee mare who can be quite the toad. Her rider was riding her the other day and I happened to notice that she was licking and chewing - what a happy horse! And sometimes because I tend to stand in the middle of the riders circle, she had her inside ear on me and her outside ear on the rider... don't want to encourage her to listen to me when she's being ridden by someone else, but she hasn't been in the join up pen in ages and so I found this quite interesting. Since noticing the change in her, she's been doing a lot of licking and chewing and is such a different horse. For a horse that once would bolt off towards home whenever she got the chance, and loved to rear and freak everyone out (she's been checked for soreness and her gear fits, etc), she is now accepting to go with her rider. It's such an amazing change! I've thanked my instructor/best friend for passing this amazing bonding technique over to me!

As for using all this expensive gear - I may get flamed for not "doing it properly" but I've just stuck my horses in their own halters and done join up. Because I don't do any more of the Monty Roberts stuff, I don't see the point in buying gear that frankly I'm never going to use. 
x


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## RusticWildFire (Jul 6, 2008)

ohmyitschelle said:


> As for using all this expensive gear - I may get flamed for not "doing it properly" but I've just stuck my horses in their own halters and done join up. Because I don't do any more of the Monty Roberts stuff, I don't see the point in buying gear that frankly I'm never going to use.
> x


 
I don't think you need to use his stuff. I just thought it'd be a helpful tool for me to have myself...Actually I'm pretty sure I read or saw somewhere he himself say that you don't need his tools to do it.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

As for the expensive gear - heck no! I'm not going to spend my money on that sort of stuff. 
Join-up can be done with nothing more than a round pen and yourself... maybe a lunge whip.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> I have used join-up with MANY many horses, and it has helped immensely. Getting them to turn INTO you and listen to your body helps a lot. I've turned a horse that was pretty much a bronc into a trail guide horse using a lot of this technique. It took a lot of work, but it was well worth it, and I found it helped a ton.
> My trainer does join-up with all of her horses, and strongly believes it helps.
> Sonny, perhaps you weren't using the technique properly, and that's why it didn't help?
> The idea is that you get the horse responding to very subtle cues to change gait, change direction (turning towards you, not showing his butt), and stay on the outside of the circle until you ask him to come in. The join-up part works very well to connect with the horse.


From all that I know, I was doing it correctly and my two friends who uses Join-ups for their horses and are HUGE Robert's fans were there and helped me. Sonny did everything "correct" in terms of turning in, and not switching directions by turning into the fence (and give me the butt), and so on....but it did not help at all with our relationship infact he seemed more cautious around me after I did that.

In a way, I can see how join-up CAN be a good method, but what happens if you get a horse that will NOT turn into you...that will NOT relax or start licking his lips? If I understood the video of Robert's performing Join-up, aren't you supposed to lunge the horse over and over again until he lowers his head, licks his lips, pays attention to you, and finally turns into you when you give them your back? Maybe I'm misunderstanding it....


As for the Parelli rope halter...yes there are tons of rope halters out there, and I bought a cheapy one because I didn't want to waste the money....I bought a pretty Double Diamond rope halter and used that for a while. But I noticed that, compared to the Parelli halter, mine was extremely stiff. So I bought the Parelli one and I was amazed at the difference in how well my horse responded!!! (I ride in my rope halter if you guys don't already know).
Like Robert's and Anderson's stuff, they are not necessary to do the NH. Some of the items for Parelli I find makes everything easier....like the carrot stick with the savvy string. It's not needed, you can use the end of the lead rope (not sure if you can for the assessments though) instead. Just as some of you pointed out...the Robert's halter isn't really needed to preform any of his stuff.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

SonnyWimps said:


> From all that I know, I was doing it correctly and my two friends who uses Join-ups for their horses and are HUGE Robert's fans were there and helped me. Sonny did everything "correct" in terms of turning in, and not switching directions by turning into the fence (and give me the butt), and so on....but it did not help at all with our relationship infact he seemed more *1) cautious around me after I did that.*





SonnyWimps said:


> In a way, I can see how join-up CAN be a good method, but *2) what happens if you get a horse that will NOT turn into you...that will NOT relax or start licking his lips? If I understood the video of Robert's performing Join-up, aren't you supposed to lunge the horse over and over again until he lowers his head, licks his lips, pays attention to you, and finally turns into you when you give them your back? Maybe I'm misunderstanding it....*


1) Cautious, or respecting of your space? I was worried about that too when I started with join up (many moons ago... haha) but my friend instantly pointed out that hey - my horse wasn't crowding me. She joined up, but kept her distance... because they aren't supposed to crowd you.

2) Yes. I never once "given up" before the horse. Didn't matter if I was out there for 10 minutes or an hour before the horse started turning into me. I had one very stubborn horse (the bronc) that I literally worked for 2 hours before he started consistently turning into me. It took a LOT of work on both our ends (read: walking except for when the horse turned his butt, then I would make him trot or lope to get after him, then asked him to walk again) but at the end of the session I had the horse turning into me. Finally when I asked him to join up, he did. The next day I took him back to the round pen and he only had a couple of slip-ups where he'd turn his butt, but 90% of his direction changes were on the rail and turning towards me... not bad for day #2! He'd join up without hesitation - on top of that, he respected my space!! When I'd stop, he'd stop, I moved forwards, he did.



**oh my goodness, I cannot for the life of me get the double quote off.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

he was respectful of my space, but not in the manner of he knew I was the lead horse and he wanted to respect my space....but like he HAD to respect my space. He was extremely caustios of what he did...like if I asked him to do something on the ground, he'd stare at me, start breathing heavy, as if I make sure that is really waht I wanted.

See that is what I don't like about Join-Up. I don't think lunging a horse (like the bronc that you said you worked with) for 2 hours is a good approach to training a horse. I dunno, but lunging a horse for 2 hours seems over kill...but that's just me. I don't see how lunging a horse is going to make them WANT to be with you. Yes it might make them respect you, but could it be that they are respecting you in fear that you'll lunge them again?


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## Filly213 (May 26, 2008)

i've never had anything to do with Parelli, but i've read one of Monty Robert's books (Shy Boy). i read it in one day and thought it was amazing. i would try join up on my horse, but i haven't got a round yard at my house to try it. but i think it would help him.

But i agree with what a lot of people have said, that using bits and pieces of stuff that you've learnt, as well as common sense helps a lot.

lol thats just my 2 cents


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## Midwest Paint (Oct 21, 2008)

Filly213 said:


> i've never had anything to do with Parelli, but i've read one of Monty Robert's books (Shy Boy). i read it in one day and thought it was amazing. i would try join up on my horse, but i haven't got a round yard at my house to try it. but i think it would help him.
> 
> *But i agree with what a lot of people have said, that using bits and pieces of stuff that you've learnt, as well as common sense helps a lot.*
> 
> lol thats just my 2 cents


Here, Here! I think that may have been my concept before I went on and on with my comment! LOL!

Horses are like people, and are like methods.. Not one method will work for every person or horse! But persistance and dedication to advancing and improving are the most important elements!

PS: On a note about the round pen.. If you do not happen to have one as of yet, a lunge line will work just as well, if not better! There are many who use the comfort and ease of a round pen, over the working nature of a lunge line. You can pick one up for well under $30 at most places. This will also help those that are having issues with facing!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

SonnyWimps said:


> he was respectful of my space, but not in the manner of he knew I was the lead horse and he wanted to respect my space....but like he HAD to respect my space. He was extremely caustios of what he did...like if I asked him to do something on the ground, he'd stare at me, start breathing heavy, as if I make sure that is really waht I wanted.
> 
> See that is what I don't like about Join-Up. I don't think lunging a horse (like the bronc that you said you worked with) for 2 hours is a good approach to training a horse. I dunno, but lunging a horse for 2 hours seems over kill...but that's just me. I don't see how lunging a horse is going to make them WANT to be with you. Yes it might make them respect you, but could it be that they are respecting you in fear that you'll lunge them again?


Sounds like you may have approached the Join-Up strangely then... is it a possibility that your friends didn't know as much about it as they claimed? Personally I know tons of people that come into the tack shop every day that claim to know such and such, studied under so and so... and the more they talk (which sounds convincing to the untrained ear!) the more I knew they were laying on the BS.
The way you worded that (he started breathing heavy, etc) makes me wonder what exactly you had this horse doing to get that kind of result... and this isn't an attack on you, Sonny, I'm just pointing out that perhaps the technique wasn't used properly.

Yes, it took me two hours... at a walk. I do not consider it overkill - it got the result I wanted without any physical or emotional harm being done. This horse was going to be sent to slaughter otherwise, so I figured a little walking wasn't going to kill him.
The person that tried to school him prior to me tried to desensitize him by putting a saddle on and making him lunge around with a little bit of leather hanging down on the saddle... that session ended with him bolting, crashing through the fence, and cutting himself up pretty bad. Needless to say we had some issues to work through.
Plus this horse was 9 - I didn't have to worry about him straining joints like you do younger horses.
By the end of the week I had to turn this horse around, he was turning into me, respecting my space, joining up (respectfully), and I could do much much more with him than I could before. He even started behaving under saddle.
So yes, I do believe in the technique... even more so after this horse.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

no these friends knew what they were doing because they had trained horse's before using Join-up. They worked with Sonny in it, and I did also. 
I was doing everything that Robert's was doing in the one join-up video on youtube as "correct" as I could


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## RusticWildFire (Jul 6, 2008)

Sonny, do you think this could be just a different way of him paying attention to you and respecting you and your space than you are used to? Not necessarily bad, just different?


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

no he honestly looked frightened of those friends and of me. If that is a different way of respect, where he looks frightened, then I don't want him to respect me in that way....
he respects me, but he's happy about it


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## RusticWildFire (Jul 6, 2008)

Okay, It was just a suggestion. I haven't seen him so I'd have no idea! As long as what you are doing now is working for you then good for you!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Fair enough. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Between me and my trainer and all the people we know that have used this technique, I have never seen or heard of a horse responding badly. So you'll have to excuse my confusion.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

No I also found it strange because I did hear some good things on it...but it didn't work on my horse. Never tried it with any other horses


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

There is something to be said for sticking things out until the horse makes a change. For the horse to know that he can live through something, or figure out we aren't out to kill him, we have to stick it out until he makes a change. But it's a very fine line. We have to be able to see the tiniest sign of change and reward that instantly, otherwise we missed our chance. 

I recently had a moment like this with my warmblood. His cantering on line has always been a little bracy and sometimes he would get unconfident and want to run. It was fear based on his part. So one day I was working with him on cantering and I decided I could do one of two things. 1) when he got bracy, etc. to shut him down and interrupt the pattern, or 2) leave him out on the circle going "crazy" until he made a change. I decided to go with #2. He ran around for about 7 minutes, or maybe longer, I really don't know, and then I saw him lower his head, blink his eyes, lick and chew and he threw slack in the rope. I rewarded him instantly and brought him in. That horse released sooo much it was unbelievable. Yawing, sneezing, licking and chewing, blinking, shaking his head, the whole bit. For 3-4 minutes straight! He had to go to a place that wasn't very good and see that he would be okay. Unfortunately this is sometimes necessary, usually for more extreme horses. In the sessions since then his cantering on line has never been better! He's soft, calm, and he consistantly throws slack in the line. So sticking it out, in an appropriate manner, is sometimes needed.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Couldn't agree more, Spirithorse, good insight


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## RusticWildFire (Jul 6, 2008)

I agree Spirithorse. 

The other thing that always comes to mind on this is somewhere I read that Monty has joined up with thousands of horses and he's only ever run into one that he couldn't do it with. I think there is something to be said for that too.


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## hotreddun (Jun 27, 2008)

dont get me started...with the tv horse personalitites....
 for only $89798734975.99 you to can have the perfect horse that will do everything you tell it and love you too!

Some of their techniques work...but most of it seems like good propganda to make a buck...wish Id thought of it actually...I mean an orange stick with a rope on it...selling by the millions...who would have thought


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