# Need advice about persuaders



## PrincessBarbie (Apr 27, 2013)

I would like to know if it is wise to use a persuader on a horse.My horse had to have it put on her yesterday because she had to have the hair in her ears trimmed.The persuader is used to make a horse listen from what I was told.I didn't use the persuader because I don't believe in it actually my friend did.What I seen was he took my horse's upper lip and put it in the gap and tightened it.Does anyone on here use anything like that?Is it illegal to do such thing?If so I need to take appropriate measures so that it don't happen again.I am a beginner and I will admit that and my horse is too but she's a gentle filly.What I observed the persuader is not a good item to make a horse listen.Horses can be unpredictable and dangerous and I know that.I need advice so I will know what to do thank you guys so much.
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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

It sounds like you're talking about a twitch. If it was necessary then yes I would use one. If it were my horse, I would make desensitizing to whatever the problem is a priority so I wouldn't need to. I would rather have a horse that accepted clippers or whatever.
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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Also called a twitch. I might be presuaded to stand still if someone put my lip in one of those things too, but then I would immediately have to kill them when they let go.
Was there a reason she needed the inside of her ears trimmed? Going to a show? That hair is protective from bugs and stuff. I know there are times a twitch is necessary when there is no other option but for something like ear trimming it would be so much better to work with the horse so she will accept clippers. Is she okay with the clippers and doing a bridle path? Is she okay with having her ears handled and rubbed? There are small cordless clippers that are pretty quiet. It may take some time to get her used to this but if you are patient and work at it slowly and not make it a wrestling match she should learn to accept the clippers.
I would work them around the ears, then just the outside of the ear until she is okay then gradually inside. And I would not expect to accomplish this in one session. She is already going to associate this with something unpleasant.
I wish you success. Training always beats this alternative if possible.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree with Dustbunny. 
never trim the ear hair unless absolutely necessary. same goes for muzzle and eye whiskers. they are there for a reason. even fetlock hair (feathers) can help shed water off the leg, instead of having it pool in the pastern. But it they are in mud all the time, then trimming the feathers might be smarter.

Is anyone helping you with these things? trimming and such? I wonder about a green person using a twitch.


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## hickly (Oct 22, 2011)

Like everyone else said, that's a twitch you're talking about. I agree with tinyliny and Dustbunny. I probably wouldn't use a twitch... Since you don't know too much about it. A twitch is a temporary fix. If you want to fix the real problem desensitize your horse. Unless it's something that really has to be done.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I do find it hilarious when things that have been around for years are given new more acceptable names.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

AlexS said:


> I do find it hilarious when things that have been around for years are given new more acceptable names.


Lol I was thinking the exact same thing! I was going "persuader? what the heck is that?!" 

Your horse, since I presume she is young, is probably not going to naturally like clippers... I have yet to meet a horse that didn't flinch or move around the first time clippers were used. I would stay away from the twitch and just be patient in getting her used to clippers. If she associates something negative like a twitch with clipping, you can bet she won't want to be clipped in the future and it will only get harder as she gets bigger and older. 

What I would do is take it slow. Turn them on and hold them, and maybe do something pleasant like brushing or petting. Get her used to the idea that clippers do not = death, but rather that good things happen when clippers are around. I am not a trainer, but that is what I did with my mare when first trimming her bridle path. It took 3 or 4 separate occasions of just holding them and moving them around her head and ears for her to realize that they weren't going to eat her alive. I also kept the sessions very short. I would turn them on for maybe 5 - 10 minutes while brushing her and then turn them off once she had stood still for a minute or two, making sure to end on the good note. As I said before, I'm not a trainer so maybe I did it the slow way or incorrectly, but for me, taking it slow and having endless patience was what worked. I myself am a very impatient person, so I know how hard it can be, but I always ask myself "what is the rush?" and then I kind of realize, there isn't one and forcing things aren't going make anything better.

Good luck with the evil clippers of doom!


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## PrincessBarbie (Apr 27, 2013)

I didn't use the twitch my friend did.He calls it the persuader.Thank you for using the appropriate name.She is a good horse she just doesn't know what is going on.She learns something new every time I am patient with her and she knows I take care of her.I just hope she doesn't think the twitch is a bad experience it was used to teach her what she was doing was bad.I love horses but I don't want to get throwed again ever.Thanks for the advice I will take it to heart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Barbie...doesn't matter who used the twitch, it is still not a good experience nor did it probably teach her anything. If you and your friend take your time and are patient in using the clippers, she will learn that it is nothing to fear and fight.
If I remember from your earlier posts this is a fairly immature TWH filly. You and your horse will both benefit from taking things slow. She is young and the less trauma the better. Also, sometimes it is difficult when another person is involved in handling horses especially if they aren't patient and the horse is young and fights.
Good luck to you.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Natural horsemanship is basically about letting a horse understand, what's going on, going in sync with the horses' body language, psychology, all those things... A twitch does none of them, it's just brute, physical submission.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Saranda said:


> Natural horsemanship is basically about letting a horse understand, what's going on, going in sync with the horses' body language, psychology, all those things... A twitch does none of them, it's just brute, physical submission.



Wrong, a twitch can save you from getting killed when working with a horse. 

And horse is NOT laying on the ground after brutally being forced to submit, or after suffering from having one used, whether it is ear, skin, lip hold with fingers, blanket clip, over upper gums, or traditional twitch.

And used properly, it can allow a horse to understand that what is being done is not going to harm them.

I've seen more than a few horses that had to be twitched in some way at first, usually for shoeing issues, that after 2, 3 4 times of being twitched, and with shoeing visits 5 weeks apart, understood that nothing was going to happen, and stood quietly after that.

But to call it brute force submission is wrong.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

a twitch does have a place, in very specific situations.

what more concerns me is a) why did she need to be shaved? other than some forms of competition(or very few other reasons) there is no reason to shave a horses ears. And b) this statement:



> I love horses but I don't want to get throwed again ever


I dont know anyone that wants to come off a horse, but it is the reality of riding, and while you should take precautions to give your self the best possible chance of staying on, you need to accept that ALL riders come off, even the best.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

SR, show me a horse who willingly puts his lip in a twitch, and maybe I shall change my thoughts about it being a method of force. However, I'm not going to argue, I just believe that if a procedure of grooming has to be done with a twitch, then maybe the handler should think over the basics, instead of trying to make a horse behave by twitching him. And I have the rights to believe in this, as well as you have your rights to believe in what's best.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Saranda said:


> SR, show me a horse who willingly puts his lip in a twitch, and maybe I shall change my thoughts about it being a method of force. However, I'm not going to argue, I just believe that if a procedure of grooming has to be done with a twitch, then maybe the handler should think over the basics, instead of trying to make a horse behave by twitching him. And I have the rights to believe in this, as well as you have your rights to believe in what's best.


As was stated previously, if the twitch is used correctly, it is an effective method to calm a horse without using drugs.

A twitch will cause the release of endorphins. Endorphins are natural painkillers - made by the body but released by the brain.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

^^^ So I have heard.
I'd still rather train a horse to accept something than start off with a twitch.


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## wausuaw (Apr 15, 2011)

Twitching a horse CAN be painful if it is used improperly. I wouldn't touch one.., but that's because I've never used one, and I dont know the proper way. 

If used properly, it's not painful at all to the horse (even if it looks like it)

I agree with others that the horse should be taught to accept things first- though sometimes time is not an option for emergency things with poorly handled horses.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Well, clipping the ears can hardly be an emergency, if we refer to the original post... But I'm the odd one who's against trimming all you can get off your horse, just because you can.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

A twitch is neither a training devise nor an instrument of brute force.

It is simply a 'distraction' devise and a form of a 'restraint'. There are times that the use of a twitch is very necessary to get something done quickly. They can be the best of few options in a particular circumstance. They work simply because most horses only feel pain in one place and not two or three. They can distract and restrain a horse while Xylocaine is being injected to suture something. 

There are times you do not want to sedate a horse and you simply have to get something done before you would have time to train it to accept a certain thing. We have a set of stocks, so a twitch is much less frequently needed, but I still keep one around. Everyone that has had a lot of horses has had things come up where a twitch is appropriate. 

Everyone also has their own favorite kind of twitch. Personally, I prefer a wooden pick handle with a hole drilled through it near the end and a 3/8 inch piece of rope tied through it in a loop of about 4 inches in diameter or so. The same kind of distraction can be accomplished a lot of times by taking a handful of skin on a horses neck where it joins its shoulder. 'Earing' a horse down does the same thing by twisting an ear, but has the bad side-effect of making a horse ear-shy. I almost always try a lip-chain before I go to a twitch because I can 'teach' at the same time I use it as a restraint. Other times, I just want a quick short restraint.

I probably use a twitch more frequently in breeding management than in other situations. I will twitch a 'kicky' mare so she will not injure a stallion during a live cover. I will twitch a mare that does not want to be palpated. I will twitch a mare to put in Caslick sutures or take them out. There are just a lot of times that a quick temporary restraint is appropriate.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Twitches have their place, but IMHO, should not be used to replace proper training. Twitches are something that should be saved for when you need something done immediately that the horse may nor may not be prepared for (or something that can't really be trained to correct easily).

Twitching her to trim the ears just shows me that someone didn't want to take the time to introduce her and desensitize her to the clippers the way it should have been done.

I've been around horses my entire life with my Dad being a pro trainer and we had thousands of horses come and go over the years. The only time I ever saw him twitch a horse was when one that was barely broke got hurt and needed a wound washed or needed a shot or other, similar, circumstances.

As I said, they have their place, but they can cause a lot of long term problems if used improperly.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Totally agree with what you've said. When I was a kid, we had a mare who tore the tendons in her hind leg which was followed by a massive abscess. I was really young, but I do remember my mom having to hose down her leg and maybe put some sort of medication on it... really don't remember that vivid of detail, but do remember having to use a twitch on her. In that situation, her hind leg was very painful to touch not to mention dangerous for the people doing it, so a twitch was necessary. There are situations that warrant their use such as medical emergencies or others mentioned above.

For things like clipping, I think it would be better to just slowly get her used to them.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Saranda said:


> SR, show me a horse who willingly puts his lip in a twitch, and maybe I shall change my thoughts about it being a method of force. However, I'm not going to argue, I just believe that if a procedure of grooming has to be done with a twitch, then maybe the handler should think over the basics, instead of trying to make a horse behave by twitching him. And I have the rights to believe in this, as well as you have your rights to believe in what's best.


First, "SR" (which usually stands for Speed Racer here) has not even posted on this thread, so, perhaps you were referring to Palomines post? (which I happen to agree with 10000%). Twitches have their place, and, as has been stated, when properly used are hardly "brute force". From your post I am guessing that you believe we should only do what a horse will do willingly? Really? Do you ever go left when your speshul horsey want to go right? that could be construed as "forcing" it.......Do you make it leave the comfy barn when it doesn't want to? Horses (and people) do things every day that they do not necessarily WANT to do, and really do reluctantly, not really willingly. 

NH can be carried too extremes. Just sayin'.:wink:


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## PrincessBarbie (Apr 27, 2013)

Thanks for the advice.The twitch was used because she was not willing to be submissive to getting her ears trimmed. A lot of Tennessee Walkers have their ear hairs trimmed and the hair on the top of their head as well.She got shoes put on her for the first time today and she had to be given Acepromazine which is a tranquilizer that calms a horse down.She responded very well to the tranquilizer.She has to have new shoes in a couple of months.I will have a good show horse.She does have a beautiful gait called the running walk.Once again thank you for the advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I have had to show groom a lot of horses, many of whom were not mine and that I may not have seen until they walked into the stocks or cross ties. I always kept a lip chain in my front pocket and a twitch in my back pocket. Like Cherie, I prefer a wooden handle with a piece of rope in a circle, but the chain twitch or even the so called "humane or one person" twitch will work in a pinch. I'll even ear one if I have to, because I've got a job to do, very little time to do it (right before a show) and no desire to get hurt, maimed or killed. 

At a show, I can't tranq the horse, it will fail a drug test. Frequently I have no idea how or if the horse has been well trained to accept the clippers anywhere, let alone near the ears. I'm real considerate about clipping ears, I put 'puffs' down inside the ear canal to keep the noise down and hair out, and I'll try to trim with my quietest, smallest pair of clippers. I'll give it 2 or 3 tries before I go to the lip chain, a couple more before I go to the twitch and a couple more before I'll have someone come ear the horse while I get the job done quickly. 

I prefer the lip chain because if the horse acts up, it can be tightened and if the horse stops the bad behavior it can be loosened much quicker than a twitch. That way they get pressure/release based on their behavior and can learn from it. 

I will always TRY to complete the job, but I also reserve the right to refuse to handle an ill trained or dangerous horse. I'm showing too and I'm wasting my money if I get hurt.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

OP-your horse should not need to be aced to have her feet done. Plain and simple. You should have her so that you can handle her feet by now......I am not sure who is advising you, but I am beginning to wonder.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Missed that one, frankbeans, thanks - don't know where from I got to answering SR. 

As for all of this -



> From your post I am guessing that you believe we should only do what a horse will do willingly? Really? Do you ever go left when your speshul horsey want to go right? That could be construed as "forcing" it.......Do you make it leave the comfy barn when it doesn't want to? Horses (and people) do things every day that they do not necessarily WANT to do, and really do reluctantly, not really willingly.


Never said any of that and no need to get snarky - I can communicate in an adult manner very well, but can you? 

But I still consider and will consider twitch a forceful method, that can have its' place (medical procedures, emergencies, etc.), but for a grooming procedure? Really? This is, after all, the NH section, and I stand for NH values - not rainbow farts and butterflies, but for letting a horse understand a problematic situation, not just trying to push him through in a faster and a seemingly more convenient (for the handler) way. 

Just so that you know, my speshul horsey (an extremely dominant wannabe stud) would have killed me by know if I just let everything go his way.


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## MissingStar (Feb 20, 2013)

My vet used a twitch on my colt last month when he was about to be gelded. I guess the poor boy had a sense of foreboding because he suddenly began behaving like a brat as he was about to be sedated, despite having not reacted to injections prior. In the vet's professional hands, the twitch was invaluable and the administration of necessary drugs was over in seconds.

I must confess, I am increasingly confused by the OP's posts. I still don't understand why the horse required its ear hair to be trimmed. It's not as if the horse was going to a show. So why the unnecessary trauma? 

It takes time and patience to desensitize a young horse to all the procedures it will be expected to accept as part of its husbandry. This doesn't seem to be happening for this yearling. 

Case in point, sedating for shoeing. Unless this horse has issues with his/her feet, why shoe at all at this age? Prepare over time for shoeing by all means, pick up the feet, tap gently with a hammer, etc, but all hooves need at this age is a trim to keep them in shape. 

Stating that she doen't want to be "throwed again" suggests that the OP has been onboard, despite everyone on this forum advising that the horse is very underweight and too young to begin training.

Either the OP is being badly advised, or she does not seem to have much say with regard to how her horse is taken care of.

Confused, very confused.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I have had to show groom a lot of horses, many of whom were not mine and that I may not have seen until they walked into the stocks or cross ties. I always kept a lip chain in my front pocket and a twitch in my back pocket. Like Cherie, I prefer a wooden handle with a piece of rope in a circle, but the chain twitch or even the so called "humane or one person" twitch will work in a pinch. I'll even ear one if I have to, because I've got a job to do, very little time to do it (right before a show) and no desire to get hurt, maimed or killed.
> 
> At a show, I can't tranq the horse, it will fail a drug test. Frequently I have no idea how or if the horse has been well trained to accept the clippers anywhere, let alone near the ears. I'm real considerate about clipping ears, I put 'puffs' down inside the ear canal to keep the noise down and hair out, and I'll try to trim with my quietest, smallest pair of clippers. I'll give it 2 or 3 tries before I go to the lip chain, a couple more before I go to the twitch and a couple more before I'll have someone come ear the horse while I get the job done quickly.
> 
> ...


I used to be a show groom too and I also used to clip horses for a side job, twitching was just part of the job. Although I find that as a person gets more proficient with any 'uncomfortable' grooming task the better you become at doing it without or little discomfort to the horse and you get very good at judging how a horse is going to react.....nothing like being underneath an explosive horse clipping its legs while the owner is feeding it cookies!!!!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Muppetgirl said:


> I used to be a show groom too and I also used to clip horses for a side job, twitching was just part of the job. Although I find that as a person gets more proficient with any 'uncomfortable' grooming task the better you become at doing it without or little discomfort to the horse and you get very good at judging how a horse is going to react.....nothing like being underneath an explosive horse clipping its legs while the owner is feeding it cookies!!!!


AAAAYYYY-men to that! Though, if it will distract a horse well enough to make it behave while I'm doing my thing on it, I'm all FOR cookies! Bribes work and I use them when I need to.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> OP-your horse should not need to be aced to have her feet done. Plain and simple. You should have her so that you can handle her feet by now......I am not sure who is advising you, but I am beginning to wonder.


I agree, no the horse shouldn't need to be tranq'd to have her feet done by now, but I've had a couple that we've had to do it to. One was my Arab stallion who had gotten an injury that was very painful and even after things healed, he was VERY reactive to having that foot handled. We tranq'd him a couple of times so that he got it through his head that the foot no longer hurt to be handled and POOF, perfect horse again. Then I sent him off to be saddle broke and he came home a freakin' TERROR for the farrier. I don't know what the trainer's farrier did to him but it must have been something I'd have KILLED that farrier for, this time it took 4 times with the tranq to get him back to being a good boy. Today.......pssssht! He's 8 years old and the easiest horse on the place to handle, feet, ears and all. 

So, I'm wondering if the OP bought an unhandled yearling horse, is a beginner herself and maybe getting some questionable advice OR did she just get suckered when she bought the horse?


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## PrincessBarbie (Apr 27, 2013)

I wanted my horse to look good and prepare her for the future is the reason why I had her ears trimmed.She is now 2 years old she's officially a filly.She had a birthday last week and she is active.She is in her terrible twos just like a kid when they cry all the time,get into everything and vice versa.The earlier I get her trained the better off we both will be.My friend didn't even know how far away a horse can hear he said "A horse can hear 20 mile" I said "No they can hear things from a mile away".My friend seems to know some about horses but not enough to train one because answered my question incorrectly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

PrincessBarbie said:


> I wanted my horse to look good and prepare her for the future is the reason why I had her ears trimmed.She is now 2 years old she's officially a filly.She had a birthday last week and she is active.She is in her terrible twos just like a kid when they cry all the time,get into everything and vice versa.The earlier I get her trained the better off we both will be.My friend didn't even know how far away a horse can hear he said "A horse can hear 20 mile" I said "No they can hear things from a mile away".My friend seems to know some about horses but not enough to train one because answered my question incorrectly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not going to give you grief about clipping ears, muzzles, faces, eyes, whatever. If you want the horse show groomed all the time, it's your prerogative. If you're going to keep her clipped up though, please get her a fly mask with ears, to keep the bugs and gnats out of her sensitive ears. That can help keep her quiet about her ears right from the start, no buzzy things in them and no biting things biting them and making them sore.

**Forgot to say** You might try doing an outside clip on the ears, just for everyday. You take the ear and fold it gently so that just the longest hairs are sticking out past the edges, and run the clippers down the outside and get rid of the long hair that sticks out every which way. It will help get her used to the clippers to have that done every couple of days and keep her neatened up without stripping her ears of all their protection.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

If you want to prepare and train, you don't trim their ears out right away... You get them used to the buzz, to the sound, to all the specifics of clipping *gradually*, so that they become familiar and calm about this procedure. 

Especially because, as she's not being prepared for an actual show yet, she NEEDS that hair in her ears.

Oh, but well, she's yours to do anything with her as you please. Good luck.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

OP-horses do not have "terrible twos". THey have bad behavior resulting from not being handled and trained ON THE GROUND. has nothing to do with age..


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## PrincessBarbie (Apr 27, 2013)

Okay,A horse to me is like a child that's why I said she's in her terrible twos.A horse is like a kid they have to learn to crawl before they walk.My horse and I are doing things one step at a time.I love her very much.It seems like yesterday she was a foal and now she is half grown up.It's hard to believe my horse has grown fast.Her mom and dad are good horses and from what I hear they are starving along with 24 more horses.I am glad I got Barbie out of that situation.The owner is wanting to sell Barbie's mom and her name is Indian Princess and I would buy her to rescue her but I know what you guys would think so I am not going to buy her.I would save all of them horses but I can't.Them horses need a good home and need to be fed more I personally don't want the owner to get into trouble.Twenty-six horses to me that is a lot of horses to be feeding they are at least 200lbs underweight and that's bad.Thank you for the advice can't thank you enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

The way this looks to me is this filly needs a lot of constant handling and grooming. There are a number of posts suggesting you work at the clipping slowly so she will accept the proceedure. Same with feet. This little horse is going to be in for a rough time when it comes to saddle training if all efforts to teach her anything is left to the point of need. 

Barbie...raising a horse is work. But they are not a child. Way bigger for one thing. But it is rewarding when they grow into a dependable saddle companion. This all takes constant and consistant handling. I know you want to do the right thing for this horse. It sounds like her former situation was awful. You might look into books and videos of basic care and grooming including foal raising because it sounds like she really needs to start at the very beginning. This will take time and patience. But it will be worth it.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

OP, it's good to see you are asking questions, but I agree with DustBunny here. I think you've got to start at the beginning, and just go one step at a time. I'm curious to know why you're in such a rush to have her trained so soon? She is just 2. Yes, many horses are started with some light saddle work at 2, but I don't think there would be anything wrong with training her later either, or at least wait until she has ground basics down cold. I know that many people don't train until 3 or 4, but I suppose it all depends on the horse and trainer.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

PrincessBarbie said:


> Okay,A horse to me is like a child that's why I said she's in her terrible twos.A horse is like a kid they have to learn to crawl before they walk.My horse and I are doing things one step at a time.I love her very much.It seems like yesterday she was a foal and now she is half grown up.It's hard to believe my horse has grown fast.Her mom and dad are good horses and from what I hear they are starving along with 24 more horses.I am glad I got Barbie out of that situation.The owner is wanting to sell Barbie's mom and her name is Indian Princess and I would buy her to rescue her but I know what you guys would think so I am not going to buy her.I would save all of them horses but I can't.Them horses need a good home and need to be fed more I personally don't want the owner to get into trouble.Twenty-six horses to me that is a lot of horses to be feeding they are at least 200lbs underweight and that's bad.Thank you for the advice can't thank you enough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you know those horses are starving you need to report it. The owner should get in trouble if it will get those horses out of trouble.
I'd report my own Mother if she was starving animals as someone needs to speak for those that cannot.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

natisha said:


> if you know those horses are starving you need to report it. The owner should get in trouble if it will get those horses out of trouble.
> I'd report my own mother if she was starving animals as someone needs to speak for those that cannot.


totally agree!


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## PrincessBarbie (Apr 27, 2013)

Hopefully someone will buy them off of her.I would buy them if I could. I would have to pay between $26,000-$100,000 to get them and I don't have that much money I will admit that.I hate trouble and don't believe in trouble.My friend wasn't very nice today.Barbie is in heat and the little mule Sedrick that is at the barn was being ridden by his son and Barbie was pawing,bucking,running,rearing,and flagging her tail like a stallion she done all of this for about 5 minutes.My friend puts her in the barn and takes the feed away from her and I said "Don't take that feed away from her" and I got it back then he grabbed it and dumps it in the barn and threw the bucket down he said "Don't blank my blank off" .I had to pick the feed off of the ground and put it back in the bucket and give it to her.I didn't get all of it off of the ground but I got enough of it.I cannot say the exact words what he said because cussing is not allowed on the forum one person cussed on the handing over the reins thread but that's not me I don't do that on here.Barbie is my horse and I will do right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

It sounds like that is not a good friend to have around a young horse...or any horse...but especially one who is in need of a lot of handling and training.
Sorry...

I hope someone will report the other horses. It is a very cruel way for them to die if they are not being fed and cared for.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

"She is now 2 years old she's officially a filly"

A filly is a female horse under 4 years of age. So she was/is a filly in utero, all the way up to her 4th birthday. FYI.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

natisha said:


> If you know those horses are starving you need to report it. The owner should get in trouble if it will get those horses out of trouble.
> I'd report my own Mother if she was starving animals as someone needs to speak for those that cannot.


The owner needs to be reported. You can do that without your name being involved, I believe. But to know that these horses are starving and not do anything just because you "don't want trouble" or you cannot afford them makes you almost as bad as their owners. Those horses need you to do the right thing. They cannot speak for themselves.

After reading your last post, I and wondering if perhaps your "friend" takes away Barbies food other times when you are not there? I personally would have laid them out for that behavior and would not want them anywhere near my horse, especially a young one. I am beginning to think you need to move her somewhere where there are knowledgeable people to help you where she will get proper care. You say you want to do the best for her, so perhaps that is it. The people who are "helping" you now are not the right ones.


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## PrincessBarbie (Apr 27, 2013)

Yea I know I am watching every move that a person makes around her.I am going to do the right thing that's a promise.I am gentle with her and she is with me I can groom her and she learned not to move.She is a good horse she just needs more training.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

PrincessBarbie said:


> Yea I know I am watching every move that a person makes around her.I am going to do the right thing that's a promise.I am gentle with her and she is with me I can groom her and she learned not to move.She is a good horse she just needs more training.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is not physically possible for you to watch 24/7. Not possible, period. You keep saying you are "going to do the right thing that's a promise" but so far you a sure not showing it. Watching that person behave like that around your horse is not the same as doing something about it. I really feel sorry for this poor little horse. Love cannot fix everything, my dear.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Didn't read everything, so sorry if I jump into something. :lol:

Just wanted to say that I believe a twitch has its place, though I do believe it is overused.

I had to use one on my mare last year when she got microchipped. The first try, sans twitch, resulting in her pulling back so hard she bent the needle. That is a HUGE needle.

So we twitched her and she didn't even.....well, twitch.


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## PrincessBarbie (Apr 27, 2013)

The twitch is not used that often only if it's necessary.When she was being shod she had to have a shot to calm her nerves down the needle was only 1 inch long my friend did not give her the shot the farrier did.I might need the product called Mare Magic one day.Thank you for the advice can't thank you enough.I have been mislead before and that's why I came on here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

And you continue to be mislead. Until you get away from the people you have been listening to, it will not get better. You just seem to be continuing the cycle of bad decisions. Horses who have been trained and handled properly do NOT need shots for the farrier, or twitching to be clipped. I don't care how small you think the needle is, it should not be necessary with proper training. We have ALL made suggestions as to how you can get the proper education you need to train her, yet you keep going back to these same folks. You either need to move her, or, if you really care about her-rehome her to someone who can teach her properly and has the resources (MONEY) to feed her properly as well, seeing as how you need to "save up for it", and are now dependent on your friend. Not good to be dependent upon someone else to buy food for YOUR animal. What are you going to do if she colics from you not soaking her food as you have been told to?


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## Prinella (Jul 12, 2011)

As has been said I'd definately only be using the twitch in emergencies. 

I used to have to twitch and sedate my mare to change bandages on her injured back legs. There were no other people effective enough with horses to hold her even on a cocktail of sedation. 

I made every effort to handle those legs every day she was only twitched when absolutely necessary for my safety. I encourage the use of a twitch when used properly, for safety. However for frivolous unnecessary proceedures such as this you need to train your horse. 

You've had plenty of Suggestions for training this little filly please continue to use the forum to find more. But do not blame the ' terrible twos' they don't exist and your filly should be expected to behave. Silly baby moments sure but moments.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

I agree that she should be expected to stand for the farrier. My yearling has only ever acted up with the farrier ONCE, and that was his first trim after suffering neurological brain damage. He'd be fine one second then trying to dash off and rip his hoof out of the farrier's grip the next. I had already warned the farrier that due to his brain damage, I didn't know how he was going to act. We never once hit him, twitched him, or drugged him. We got his feet trimmed up(which took an hour and a half) and he's been dandy ever since. In fact, I rasp his feet once a week and handle them more often than that. Just today I was able to go pick out his feet while he was out free in the middle of his paddock. You should be expecting more of your filly. It takes time, but it is definitely rewarding. I would definitely recommend a trainer as he helped me out during Henny's "I dropped and I'm a macho man" phase.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

PrincessBarbie said:


> he grabbed it and dumps it in the barn and threw the bucket down he said "Don't blank my blank off". _Posted via Mobile Device_


Barbie, I'm going to be frank and don't take this the wrong way because I'm not saying it to be critical or mean, but it's more of an observation, based on what you've posted about this friend. 

He doesn't seem to understand horse behaviour in the least. Putting her in the barn and taking feed away from her as "punishment" is totally ineffective. Not only would she have forgotten what it was she had done by that point, but IMO, taking away her feed is not something she would understand as a punishment at all. Corrective action has to be immediate. They do something bad, they receive a swat or a scolding or whatever is warranted at the time, immediately. That builds the cause and effect relationship between their behaviour and what happens as a result of that behaviour. Conversely, it's the same for good behaviour as well. They do something you want and they receive some sort of positive reinforcement right away.

Furthermore, throwing a tantrum and dumping feed on the floor shows a complete lack of self-control, which does not mix well with horses, and is just plain unacceptable conduct. At the stable where I ride, if someone conducted themselves in that manner, they would be asked to leave. Horses will pick up on tension or aggression, even if when it's not displayed. 

You seem like you really care about this filly and want the best for her. Saying that, I would highly encourage you to find a different place for her to stay with someone different assisting you with her handling. From what you've mentioned, this sounds like a recipe for disaster and isn't safe for either you or your horse.


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## PrincessBarbie (Apr 27, 2013)

Yes you are right.My friend has a temper and can be mean.I am going to do all the horse work from now on after I get caught up.I had to take my mom to the doctor and I got in debt.I do need to get a boarding facility for my horse if my friend get mad like that around me and my horse again.Does anyone know any boarding facilities?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

To be exact, it puts a little pressure/pain on the lip (which is as sensitive as our own) to temporarily make the horse focus on that instead of what's going on. I know a gaited horse that was twitched in the past.... She's naturally a scared horse, but because of it she was EXTREMELY headshy (still is really headshy after having more than a year in natural horsemanship training), and she is terrified of everything. It takes a minimum 50ish mins for her to get over one fear. No horse that was twitched came out with happy memories


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Sorry to hear about your mom and medical bills and what not. it's always tough when stuff like that happens. Like I said, I wasn't trying to be mean, it was just an observation. Do you have any other friends with horses? If so, a good place to start would be to ask them if they know of anywhere or know someone who knows someone... I think you catch my drift. 

With your horse, I think you should either buy books or videos or both and do as much research as possible. Just take everything one step at a time. Guage your horse's reaction to things as you go and don't move to the next step until you're confident she's completely comfortable with the one before it. In the 20ish years I've been around horses, I've found the best thing you can do is work within your horse's timeline not yours. You push too hard and go too fast and you'll end up back at square one. That's something I still have to remember every now and then as its easy to forget! and don't forget, there will be frustrating days, and you'll just have to push through. IMO that's one of the most rewarding things with horses; working at something til you're blue in the face and they finally get it! Best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PrincessBarbie (Apr 27, 2013)

You are right you do have to be patient with horses.I do my best with my horse.OP I think my horse has forgotten about the twitching that was done to her.She is doing really well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Nokotaheaven said:


> To be exact, it puts a little pressure/pain on the lip (which is as sensitive as our own) to temporarily make the horse focus on that instead of what's going on. I know a gaited horse that was twitched in the past.... She's naturally a scared horse, but because of it she was EXTREMELY headshy (still is really headshy after having more than a year in natural horsemanship training), and she is terrified of everything. It takes a minimum 50ish mins for her to get over one fear. No horse that was twitched came out with happy memories


Done correctly it is not traumatic, done in temper and haste as a punishment rather than patiently and quietly as a safety measure to get something done makes the difference.

I have seen many people storming off to get the twitch, in the "I'll show you" mind set, they have already traumatized the horse, and then by approaching in temper just make things worse.

I have seen people gently and calmly applying the twitch to a horse that has not been ramped up to full 'fury' and I have seen it work like it is supposed to.

The statement


> No horse that was twitched came out with happy memories


 is not quite true, some do some don't it is as ever all in the handling and the approach.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Yes, twitches have their place. The one mare i mentioned before that we twitched had a serious injury that could not wait for treatment and was very painful. Being on her hind leg, it was a dangerous area to treat. But like you have said, we used it gently and calmly and once she had healed some we didn't even need it. IMO, they should be a last resort though for a very select few procedures, not as a replacement for training.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Oh totally agree Glynnis, last resort time, I still think that Wills was ear twitched at sometime, and not in a good patient manner, which is why I'm battling with her over bridling still.


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## PrincessBarbie (Apr 27, 2013)

Thank you for the advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Histep (Jun 9, 2013)

Hi, I am sorry that you aren't in the best situation with your filly. I don't know what your schedule is like and if you see your horse everyday. If you do, I would suggest working on her feet, give her a good brush, then work on her picking up her legs for you, clean her feet out with a hoof pick, and like someone suggested to bang her foot to simulate when the farrier is banging the nails in. As far as your clipping problem, next time you go to clip her most likely she will be problematic as she will remember it not being a good experience. So what I would do is, introduce her to the clipper while they are off, let her see it, smell it, then rub it on her neck a little bit. Take a couple steps back and turn them on to see her reaction. If she bugs out, shut them off and let her see it and smell it again, rub her neck too, try again the next day. Once she is comfortable with them being on and near her, rub it on her neck, moving towards the bridle path. I wouldn't try messing with her ears until she is comfortable having them around her ears. It will take time and she will get used to it. In the mean time with her ears, when your brushing her head, just touch her ears with your hands, rub on them, get her used to having her ears touched. I don't know what you have been doing, I am just trying to be helpful and good luck, I have trained many babies to be handled and this was my approach. We only used the twitch for the vet to inject horses joints and what not. Seriously good luck with her, hope you get into a better environment, for her and yourself!


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## PrincessBarbie (Apr 27, 2013)

Thank you and I will do what you suggested Histep.Thank you for the advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

There are probably times when clipping is indeed an emergency (think injured area that needs to be clean in order to see damage/suture it up. That's just one example.

You can train your horse to handle clippers. I think that's something you should work on doing once you have more horse-handling experience.


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## PrincessBarbie (Apr 27, 2013)

Thank you for the advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

Your horse is not ready for showing, so she really doesn't need her ears trimmed & since she is in a field she might need that hair for ear protection. Do what's necessary first, use your money wisely. Did she need shoes or did you do it "just because"? I hope you aren't riding her yet,she is still growing and needs more handling first, but not by your "friend" who seems to have a temper. I'm glad you are asking questions to help you w/this filly, she is a pretty girl.


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## PrincessBarbie (Apr 27, 2013)

Thank you Cacowgirl,I am not riding her yet I will ride her when the time is right.My friend does have a temper.Barbie is still in heat and Sedrick wants to get with her and that can't happen and it's not going to.She is too young and too little later on I might breed her when things get straightened out.I want to breed her later on for 2 reasons 1)To make money and 2) help other people get a good horse.I am going to get her genetically tested first and it's pretty expensive.She has gained quite a bit of weight I am going to estimate that she is more than 500lbs but less than 600lbs.How do you calculate a horses weight?I read in a horse book that it is heart girth x heart girth x 300/50.I hope she has reached her adequate weight when I measure her.She was supposed to seen the dentist today but she didn't show up so I have to call her.Thanks for the advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

PrincessBarbie said:


> I want to breed her later on for 2 reasons 1)*To make money* and 2) help other people get a good horse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, that is your business but I'm afraid you're going to learn pretty quickly what kind of popularity that kind of BYB sentiment brings forth around here.

You ask for advice and everyone gives it. 

And pretty much everyone says not to breed, get it out of your head, but it's still there...along with that first and probably primary motivation, I doubt anyone will convince you otherwise.

Sad, sad... and sad to say that given the rest of this conversation, I'm not surprised....


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Please put the idea of breeding her way back in the closet, for another year, if ever. You probably wouldn't make any money doing that, and there are so many other things for you to focus on right now. I am sure you are just being overwhelmed with all the advice here, and to add breeding would make it really tough for all of you right now. Just take that thought and put it far , far in the very back of your mind. stay focused on what needs to be done TODAY, and how much you can enjoy the company of your horse TODAY.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

PrincessBarbie said:


> Thank you Cacowgirl,I am not riding her yet I will ride her when the time is right.My friend does have a temper.Barbie is still in heat and Sedrick wants to get with her and that can't happen and it's not going to.She is too young and too little later on I might breed her when things get straightened out.I want to breed her later on for 2 reasons 1)To make money and 2) help other people get a good horse.I am going to get her genetically tested first and it's pretty expensive.She has gained quite a bit of weight I am going to estimate that she is more than 500lbs but less than 600lbs.How do you calculate a horses weight?I read in a horse book that it is heart girth x heart girth x 300/50.I hope she has reached her adequate weight when I measure her.She was supposed to seen the dentist today but she didn't show up so I have to call her.Thanks for the advice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There are already good horses out there. You cannot help people further, I promise you.

Horse weight is an approximation. Here is a nifty tool.
Adult Horse Weight Calculator | TheHorse.com

You can also use weight tape.

~~

From my understanding horse breeding is an expensive process.. I wouldn't consider it a money maker from what you have right now.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> There are already good horses out there. You cannot help people further, I promise you.
> 
> 
> From my understanding horse breeding is an expensive process.. I wouldn't consider it a money maker from what you have right now.


I very much agree with you, but let's play devil's advocate.

THEORETICALLY, proper veterinary science is a relatively new thing, right? 
So technically speaking, if the horse had plenty of nutrition (through grass and hay supplement at least in Winter), the horse could come out ok with a field breeding and birth. Isn't that what "horses in the wild" do? And a lot of backyard bred horses too?

I'm guessing that is what would be banked on here. (Even in nature, of course, plenty of births go sadly wrong, but hey, let's ignore that for now).

Either way, I'll say this:

Ashley, let's say you breed your horse, and nothing goes wrong, and she lives, and the baby lives. Let's even say you do it more than once and you get 2 or 500 dollars for the baby! Whoohoo, right? Until you find out that the new baby is living exactly how your friend tells you that a horse is ok to be living, no hay and green filled water and all!

And then what happens when you can't sell the baby and you can't afford to feed two horses?

Or even worse, when the baby is a boy, you don't sell it in time and it doesn't get gelded in time, and it breeds its own mom?

You do know that because people can't afford a LUXURY like horses, a lot of horses are going for slaughter?

They are going for dog food, people food and zoo food, all because there are too many of them, too few people who can afford them, and because horses live a really, really long time. That means that one of Princess Barbie's babies, like other horses in this economy, has a fair chance of going to a slaughterhouse.

To give you an idea, i got my latest "rescue" from the Auction house around here. The lady was a breeder. I paid 40 bucks for this horse that can be REGISTERED. Her other baby didn't go for even that...he went for $10 bucks, and probably went to the meat truck.

I don't think you want to risk breeding your horse for $10 or even $50 bucks. 

It's something to think about.


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## PrincessBarbie (Apr 27, 2013)

No I would not.I hate horse slaughtering,I am really against it.I love animals and they should not get mistreated.My friend kicked the burro a little too hard because he was wanting to get with Barbie and she needed to go into the barn and eat.The burro was in the barn so my friend tied a rope to the burro's neck to lead him out of the barn so Barbie could eat and he about got away from him and the burro acted up and he kicked him about 7 times.Just so everyone on the forum knows when it comes to my horse I am protective.If my friend abuses my horse in anyway I will take action.I had to stop him from kicking the burro and finally he quit.He knows I don't allow animal abuse.Thank you for your knowledge and wisdom I am learning more than what I did know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

That is not a person I would ever ever ever call a friend. Shoot-I would never even want to be associated with them in any way! (unless it was to take them to anger management)


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

Barbie, just to throw out there - to properly breed a horse you should plan on it costing 5,000 between stud fees (you don't want to breed to an old decrepit horse, you want an impressive stud, and that costs money), proper vet care, supplements, ultrasound, not to mention an emergency fund in case something goes wrong. You will almost certainly NOT make money off of a foal.

You CAN breed cheaper, but if you really want to make sure to do it right you'd better have a few thousand to spare.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Very true. It's not just breeding. Horses are expensive. Period. Between the breeding fee, board/mare care while she was at the breeders, genetic testing, vet for the ultrasound and transportation costs, breeding my mare this year has cost a pretty penny. That doesn't include just the regular farrier, feed, vitamin supplements, deworming and vaccination costs, although those expenses go up with a pregnant mare as well. You have to remember, she'll eat more and you should vaccinate at 5, 7, 9 months gestation as well as 30 days prior to her foaling date. I've got a slush fund for her should I need a vet.

One thing I have done that I've found really useful is I've found out the costs for things. I called my vet and found out how much they charge as a baseline for an exam, lameness test, ultrasound, etc. It's hard to judge if there will be any additional costs such as medication or treatment until you really get there but don't forget to allow some room in the budget for those. I have also found out what they charge for mileage should they have to come to me and their afterhours dispatch fees. Other things I've done is I've called around to different feed stores to find out what they carry and what they charge. 

I also keep a running spreadsheet of what my horse has cost me. I'll be honest, I didn't start it until Fall of last year, but my plan is to keep track of what everything costs so I have a general idea, year over year, the minimum I'll need to put away for the upcoming year. Right now I'm just socking away as much as possible until I get more recorded, but I think it will definitely offer you some peace of mind if you can create a general outline of what you'll need for cash for Barbie. I even record what might seem trivial, like horse treats, but everything will add up. 

Sorry for the short novel I just wrote, but I think creating a budget for your horse will be very beneficial! For me personally, it definitely alleviates some anxiety when I know exactly what I could be in for.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

If you want to make $100,000.00 breeding and raising horses, start out with about $400,000.00 and plan on 'losing' the other $300,000.00.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

And also keep in my mind that, even despite the best care, you could always lose the mare and/or the foal.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

You think your friend doesn't treat your horse the same when you aren't there? If he's so out of control that he will kick a poor small burro 7 times, he won't hesitate to do the same with your horse. 
Move her to another farm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PrincessBarbie (Apr 27, 2013)

I am going to he went off on me today he threatened to hurt me but he is on probation so he has to be a good boy.I might have to sell my horse I would hate to but I don't have a choice unless I can get her a pasture.I have to buy the feed here on out.I want the best for Barbie.I now know what horsewoman ship is all about it can be expensive and it's not easy as it seems.I thought owning a horse was as easy as counting 1-2-3 but it's not.My friend might change and do things better than what he does,if not I have to sell my horse and the burro is better to go with her too.Thank you for the concerns and advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

PrincessBarbie said:


> I am going to he went off on me today he threatened to hurt me but he is on probation so he has to be a good boy.I might have to sell my horse I would hate to but I don't have a choice unless I can get her a pasture.I have to buy the feed here on out.I want the best for Barbie.I now know what horsewoman ship is all about it can be expensive and it's not easy as it seems.I thought owning a horse was as easy as counting 1-2-3 but it's not.My friend might change and do things better than what he does,if not I have to sell my horse and the burro is better to go with her too.Thank you for the concerns and advice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



It sounds like you really do want what's best. Horse owning is certainly not one two three, it's incredibly involved and takes tons of time and on top of that money. You seem to be coming to that conclusion on your own, though.

She's a good horse, and you're a good person, but you might not be quite ready for each other yet. Think on it good and hard- neither of you are in a good position at that barn, I'm worried about what will happen if you or the horse continue to stay there. The burro, too, but I don't think you have as much of a say with him.


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## PrincessBarbie (Apr 27, 2013)

I don't have a say over the burro because he's not mine.I want the best for my horse,she is calm around me and she is a green horse.Once she is 650 pounds she is going to school to get trained.I am taking all advice to heart,I needed help that's why I came on here.How many beginners are on this forum?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Plenty. THere is even a whole thread for newbies.

So you have found a good trainer?


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

PrincessBarbie said:


> I am going to he went off on me today he threatened to hurt me but he is on probation so he has to be a good boy.I might have to sell my horse I would hate to but I don't have a choice unless I can get her a pasture.I have to buy the feed here on out.I want the best for Barbie.I now know what horsewoman ship is all about it can be expensive and it's not easy as it seems.I thought owning a horse was as easy as counting 1-2-3 but it's not.My friend might change and do things better than what he does,if not I have to sell my horse and the burro is better to go with her too.Thank you for the concerns and advice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Being on probation is no guarantee that he will behave. Prisons are full of repeat offenders. "Good boy"?- no, he's a jerk looking for his next victim & you & your horse are easy marks.
Have you no family or friends that can help you?


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