# At Vs A when breeding Cremello & "Bay"



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

When breeding a cremello to a bay, in the hopes of getting a buckskin, if the bay is really a brown, how is that going to effect the buckskin's coloration? Just curious.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Henny's dam is a brown based perlino rather than a bay based, so Henny is a brown based buckskin. He's a regular looking buckskin in the summer, but turns a sooty charcoal color with mealy points in the winter. If you find the millions of pictures I've posted of him, you will see what I mean. :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

It gives a darker, sooty looking buckskin. 

these are all brownskins - 

























Morgan Colors- Buckskin Morgan Horses









Four Time Poco - RC Quarter Horses


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

*ignore this. Double post*


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

*sigh* LOVE Brownskins. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

THAT'S pretty cool! I'm curious because I haven't color tested Patti yet, she's heterozygous for Tobiano and Neg for LWO. That's all I've done so far. I intend to do the Red/Black/Agouti test pretty soon. To ME she looks more Brown than Bay. When I took her to Color Congress she looked absolutely BLACK and she has had a black colt (he was homozygous black, sire was also black). All the color talk here on the forum has me curious.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

winter coat pics?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> winter coat pics?


I'm looking for that Color Congress pic, for some reason it seems to have disappeared.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Found it!


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Do you know the agouti status of the cremello? If he has regular A agouti, you might end up with a regular buckskin, since A is dominant over At.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

verona1016 said:


> Do you know the agouti status of the cremello? If he has regular A agouti, you might end up with a regular buckskin, since A is dominant over At.


He doesn't carry agouti at all, he's ee aa, tested.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

If she's got the lighter colored muzzle and flanks in the winter then yes, she's brown.

Personally, I love a brownskin horse. They are very beautiful, but I've always liked the darker colored horses LOL.


ETA: it's very hard to tell in that pic, it appears that her flank is slightly lighter than the rest of her, but her muzzle isn't. Makes me wonder if she's actually a fading black instead of an Agouti carrier :think:.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

smrobs said:


> If she's got the lighter colored muzzle and flanks in the winter then yes, she's brown.
> 
> Personally, I love a brownskin horse. They are very beautiful, but I've always liked the darker colored horses LOL.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I don't know yet. I have to get her color tested. Just reading a bunch of different color posts on here got me to wondering, since I put her in foal to a cremello. 

If she's not agouti at all, then that's going to end up a smokey black most likely then? Assuming she throws a black gene.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Yes, smoky black if she's not carrying agouti. Possibly a palomino if she's heterozygous for black and passes on a red gene.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

smrobs said:


> Yes, smoky black if she's not carrying agouti. Possibly a palomino if she's heterozygous for black and passes on a red gene.


WELLLLLLLL, guess I better send the lab a note to do some more testing. OBVIOUSLY it's totally unreasonable to ask me to wait until the foal is born to see what color it is......:wink:


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Every time I had the vet ultrasound to check for pregnancy I'd ask him what color.:wink:


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Is that mare a half arabian or a saddlebred? I like the way she trots. Shalom


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

dbarabians said:


> Is that mare a half arabian or a saddlebred? I like the way she trots. Shalom


She's a Saddlebred, her dad is Atomic Deluxe. She's smooth as a cloud to ride.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I thought atomic deluxe was a NSH stallion? I had looked at breeding to him almost a decade ago or so.
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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Atomic Deluxe is NSH. Patti doesn't have enough Arabian to be a 1/2 Arab though, she's registered Pinto, didn't bother with NSH or 1/2 Saddlebred registry. She's around 3/4-7/8 Saddlebred.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Ah. I remember watching her grow up on ablackhorse with her breeder. She always looked black to me.
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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Dehda01 said:


> Ah. I remember watching her grow up on ablackhorse with her breeder. She always looked black to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You might have seen her brother Twister on ABH, I don't go there (and I think I had quit going there by 2005/2006) and I've had Patti since she was about 6 months or less old. When she's not sun faded she does look black, but in the summer she looks more bay. Right now, she looks like dark chocolate.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

She could still be brown. I know of a couple of brown horses who look either bay or very faded black in the summer and then for winter are black as coal and have about as much lightened flank as she does in your picture, but a very obvious brown nose.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Dreamcatcher I am going to be really jealous if you get a brownskin tobiano. If its a filly I get first dibs.
Your post just inspired me. A brownskin with a dish, flowing mane, and tail.
Shalom


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Hmm. Maybe. I thought that both of the two foals were for sale at about the same time as Atomic Deluxe because I had thought about buying her. But I may have been confused.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

dbarabians said:


> Dreamcatcher I am going to be really jealous if you get a brownskin tobiano. If its a filly I get first dibs.
> Your post just inspired me. A brownskin with a dish, flowing mane, and tail.
> Shalom


Donald, If it's a Filet :wink: you will be the first person I tell! Gotta say, Patti makes some unbelievably good looking and sweet babies. It's one of the many reasons SHE will never be for sale in my lifetime.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Yeah, at the time, I had seen her brother advertised and had been looking for a homozygous tobi saddlebred, which he was, but I didn't want a colt. I wanted a filly. Brenda told me she had his younger sister and I bought her sight unseen, just off what HE looked like. Atomic Deluxe was for sale around that time too, I think, because Gail Therell was very ill and not doing well. He was since purchased by Tracy Caruth, who has also passed away. He may be available now.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Ok Color Gurus! While I was at it, I asked them to add the Splash test on Honey Boo Boo, since she didn't end up being LWO. Here's all her color results: 

Bright As A Star
Paint Horse
Agouti: AA
Champagne: nn
Cream: nn 
Red/Black: ee
LWO: nn
Pearl: nn
Tobiano: nn
Silver: nn
Splash1: n/SW1
Splash2: nn
Splash3: nn

Some of it was evident and obvious, but I just ran a couple of panels on her. Since Sabino is so hit or miss, I didn't bother with it, but she shows some of the characteristics, so I'm taking it that she is Sabino, as well. 

I'm still curious what would make her mane and tail so multi-colored? 









Pardon the Lady Parts, but it shows all the colors in her tail real well.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

That's just a part of having a chestnut horse IMHO. I'm sure that the sooty gene comes into play somewhere when their mane/tail starts getting that much dark hair, but as of yet, there's no test for sooty. I don't even think the sooty gene has been identified yet.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

smrobs said:


> That's just a part of having a chestnut horse IMHO. I'm sure that the sooty gene comes into play somewhere when their mane/tail starts getting that much dark hair, but as of yet, there's no test for sooty. I don't even think the sooty gene has been identified yet.


Ok, I was just really curious. I've had bays who came out with manes and tails like that, and they were called Wild Bay, but never had a Coppery Chestnut with that much difference in their mane and tail. Most of my Coppery ones come out like Bo, with coppery manes and tails. I've got a liver chestnut mare who has an absolutely PURPLE tail, it's amazingly mahogany, but that I'm used to with livers.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Just got Ms Patti's results back: 

La Peppermint Patti
Pinto
Agouti: Aa
Black: EE
Red: nn
Tobiano: nT
LWO: nn


SO! Here's our color chances:

Offspring Color Probability 

25.00% -
Smoky Black Tobiano

25.00% -
Smoky Black

25.00% -
Buckskin Tobiano

25.00% -
Buckskin

Anybody want to set up a pool?

The lab I used doesn't do the At test yet, so I don't have that as a factor.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Buckskin Tobi filly. Remember I get first dibs.
If I am right do I get a half price discount? Shalom


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

dbarabians said:


> Buckskin Tobi filly. Remember I get first dibs.
> If I am right do I get a half price discount? Shalom


Why...........of course.........sure...........why not?


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Dreamcatcher you are a righteous gentile. Shalom


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

DA, i can't remember, what is your stud's agouti status? That will effect the outcome as well.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> DA, i can't remember, what is your stud's agouti status? That will effect the outcome as well.


He doesn't carry agouti, tested aa


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I thought so, but couldn't remember. :lol:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Here's his color results: 

Skip N My Assets
Quarter Horse

Agouti: aa

Champagne: nn

Cream: CrCr 

Red/Black: ee

LWO: nn

Pearl: nn

Silver: nn


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Well, that settles it, since she's agouti, then there's no real reason to test for At vs A because she's definitely At LOL.

So, with that in mind, I'm going to say Brownskin Tobiano colt .


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

dbarabians said:


> Buckskin Tobi filly. Remember I get first dibs.
> If I am right do I get a half price discount? Shalom


I sent you a PM on another subject.


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