# Brutal Honesty Accepted Here Part II (1 month later)



## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I know we still need a LOT of work but I think maybe there are some improvements. The first video was a month ago... the second video was today.

Changes made 
1) I now have an 18.5 inch forward seat. It feels to big and like I swim in it, but in the video it looks like it still may be slightly too small. 

2) I've lost some weight. 

3) working on staying out of his face 

4) using a fulmer instead of a hackamore 

5) NOT cantering and don't plan to until we have more balance with each other 

6) I believe I have a bit more balance and seat strength 

7) I am wearing a helmet.

Remember, vid 1 has already been critiqued, I just put it in so you can see a before and after and know more where Cin and I were a month ago. wow, watching that again is really PAINFUL...poor Cinny

June 5 





Today (July 2)He is still a bit off balance going counter clockwise so he fights with me a bit more, plus he likes to go for that side gait for some reason. Also, just outside the other gate Pony Posse was having their end of camp show so there was a LOT of commotion, I'm so proud of him for not getting all riled up.





This is what I see in Vid 2
1) Thumbs up, I have piano hands
2) saddle may still be an odd fit???? 
3) BAD BAD BAD hands! They need to be more quiet

What do you see? Is there ANY improvement at all?

I start working with a trainer after the 15th yay. That's when her schedule has some openings.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

One thing you might try to help keep your hands still is to put a bit more bend in your elbows and keep them closer to your sides. I don't know if that would work or if it's even proper but it is an idea. There is definite improvement between the 2 videos and though there is still work to be done, you are already on the right road. You have a bit of a chair seat but I don't know enough about english saddles to know if that is an adjustment problem or what. You are making progress but it takes a long time to develop that feel and coordination where you can post a trot, pick up a rein, apply leg, and control speed all at the same time successfully. Shoot, I have been riding nearly every day for more than 20 years and I am just now really focusing on my feel and realizing how much I still have to learn. Just keep with it and I am glad that you have found a trainer than can help both you and Cinny out to make each other more comfortable.

Edited to add: One thing that I try to work on is when I ride, I try not to use my shoulders at all to cue or pick up a rein. I use only my hands and wrists. I have a loose enough hold on the reins that often, a simply clench of the fist will give sufficient cue and if it isn't enough, a bend of the wrist is.


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## BrewCrew (May 12, 2010)

I see huge improvements. Way to go, it's obvious you've put a lot of time and work into your riding. Now you will feel a lot more confident working with a trainer while you polish up and have more hands-on help. 

Is it just me or does Cinny look a little stiff/ ouchy in his hind end? ?....


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## payette (Jun 3, 2010)

Much better! Obviously, it's a long road with many small steps, but you are making progress! You and Cinny both look more unbalanced counterclockwise than clockwise, but you also both look considerably more relaxed than the older video most of the time. . . congrats, and keep up the good work!


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

BrewCrew said:


> Is it just me or does Cinny look a little stiff/ ouchy in his hind end? ?....


I think he was off a bit today. I kept the workout SUPER light. He has been stretching his back/hind end out weird almost like he has to pee but then doesn't. He is in the barn for the night in the "watch" stall (a special stall they have set up with a video monitor that goes to the BO's house). I am going to check on him in an hour too. Tomorrow I am cleaning his sheath and if he doesn't improve I am calling a vet as a few people think it may be a bladder infection.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

smrobs said:


> One thing that I try to work on is when I ride, I try not to use my shoulders at all to cue or pick up a rein. I use only my hands and wrists. I have a loose enough hold on the reins that often, a simply clench of the fist will give sufficient cue and if it isn't enough, a bend of the wrist is.


Ah yes...I seem to remember that I USED to ride that way. I guess that is yet anther thing that is no longer in my "muscle memory" lol. Definitely something to keep reminding myself to do when I ride.


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## Cheezeit32 (Jun 25, 2010)

I wonder if shortening your stirrup will help with your leg position. you're falling behind, causing your feet to move forward. More weight in your heel and a tighter leg will help in balance, and at the posting trot. What i had to do to correct my leg position is basically force myself to keep my feet underneath me. Technically you should be able to pull the horse out form underneath you, and land on you feet. In vid. 2 youd land on your bum. But i see obvious improvement from vid 1 and 2.  Lookn' good! keep up the hard work and that leg position!


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Cheezeit32 said:


> I wonder if shortening your stirrup will help with your leg position. you're falling behind, causing your feet to move forward. More weight in your heel and a tighter leg will help in balance, and at the posting trot. What i had to do to correct my leg position is basically force myself to keep my feet underneath me. Technically you should be able to pull the horse out form underneath you, and land on you feet. In vid. 2 youd land on your bum. But i see obvious improvement from vid 1 and 2.  Lookn' good! keep up the hard work and that leg position!


I see what you are talking about. When I have my stirrup one hole shorter it KILLS both my knees and brings me more into a "chair"position. When I look in the mirror my stirrup leathers are actually straight down. I know when I cue with my legs they tend to go a tad behind me. 

I agree, this needs a LOT more attention!


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## Count Jackula (Aug 28, 2009)

I still think the saddle is too small for you (and maybe the horse a little light for your weight) and apologies if I've got this wrong, but if you want to do dressage, why go for a forward cut rather than straight cut saddle? A straight cut will help you get your legs in the right position, as would shortening your stirrups, because then your feet would be brought back underneath you, instead of sticking out to the front. As it is, you are being thrown forwards/leaning forwards in trot because the stirrups are too long and you are unbalanced, causing you to land back hard on the cantle...ouch! That's said, there's a huge improvement from the first attempt, which made me wince in pain :-( You should be able to draw a straight vertical line from the top of your head through your shoulders, hips and heels, so trying imagining you are being drawn up like a puppet along that line, with your tail bone tucked in. Doing some exercises to improve your core muscles would help too.

Why one handed? If you can't maintain contact with the horse's mouth, then you really should be going back to basics, looking at the bit and trying to get a contact accepted. With your legs in the position they are, there's no way Cinny could understand 'move off the leg' aid for steering and I think continuing to neck rein just because you get the response you need will just confuse the issue, sorry :? If you want to ride english, you certainly don't want to be bending your wrists

As others have said, there IS a big improvement but if I were you I would be lunging or longreining until lessons start, I suspect that your horse may have tweaked a muscle in his back on the nearside perhaps?

PS Well, you did say brutal honesty! :wink:


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Count Jackula said:


> I still think the saddle is too small for you (and maybe the horse a little light for your weight) and apologies if I've got this wrong, but if you want to do dressage, why go for a forward cut rather than straight cut saddle?


I am starting out dressage to get our basics down but as I lose weight and he gains balance, muscle and experience I do want to start him over fences if he seems to go okay in that direction. Don't worry, until I'm a more appropriate weight he will be worked on fences by one of our "Pony Posse" members at the stable who is outgrowing her pony. She has asked me to let her use him until she finds the PERFECT hunter and gets it going. I am thinking this will benefit her and my horse both. 

The reason I have the saddle I have now is in the first vid I was still in my 16 inch from YEARS ago and um, it was a HUGE problem for me and Cinny. I found an 18.5" forward seat for 50 bucks so I grabbed it but I feel like I am SWIMING in it. It has no knee rolls, no blocks, NOTHING so I slide a bit. I use it on the "dead broke" horse I also ride to help my seat and tell myself how great it will be when I can ride perfectly without the rolls/blocks and then finally get a saddle that does. I feel like now that I at least have one I can work in now I can save for a really nice quality saddle that I can stick with when I decide what direction I am going in with Cin.



Count Jackula said:


> Why one handed? If you can't maintain contact with the horse's mouth, then you really should be going back to basics, looking at the bit and trying to get a contact accepted. With your legs in the position they are, there's no way Cinny could understand 'move off the leg' aid for steering and I think continuing to neck rein just because you get the response you need will just confuse the issue, sorry :? If you want to ride english, you certainly don't want to be bending your wrists


I don't ride one handed. The first video I did because I had a hackamore and Cinny would only steer if neck reined. In the second video you will see I have a Fulmer on him and using two hands, and he is starting to yield to my legs aids with little rein.



Count Jackula said:


> As others have said, there IS a big improvement but if I were you I would be lunging or longreining until lessons start, I suspect that your horse may have tweaked a muscle in his back on the nearside perhaps?


His back has been checked by the vet and the chiro as my new trainer will not take on any horse that is NOT on a chiro program and cleared by the chiro for work. One of the things I like about his trainer, always thinking about the horse itself. She has worked with him and says that he is clearly off balance on one side and we believe it's because the person who has owned him since he was a foal only ever worked him one direction when she did work him. I was told this before I bought him. We are doing a LOT of lunge work with him, in fact he is worked more on the lunge right now than he is under saddle.





Count Jackula said:


> PS Well, you did say brutal honesty! :wink:


Not that bad, I've had a LOT worse ha ha ha..


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## offinthedistance (Feb 28, 2009)

I'm learning too but I'll chuck in my tuppence worth.
Moving clockwise isn't so bad, though you need to move your lower legs back, as previously said. Take the horse away and you'd be on your backside. 
Counter clockwise shows an issue in trot. That horse is shouting at you. The head throwing, chewing and ear position as well as what I see as a twist in his back end indicate some pain issue to me.
I think he's very forgiving; that said, he's screaming out something at you. Not sure what, but it's there.
Listen to your horse...


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

I see a huge improvement as well. Keep taking lessons they are doing wonders for you and your horse. However, I will agree that the saddle your in IS better than what you used before, though it still looks too small. When your changing direction you can see your leg/thigh goes way over the seat. -- If you think the knee rolls and things will help your riding buy it; for the sake of your horse. You do slide *alot. *To the point where you shouldn't even be riding because your balance is so bad. I honestly think this saddle will be doing more damage than what you were riding in before.

Both your hands and your legs aren't quiet, I would do alot of exercises to work on them. I don't know if you notice but your legs swing so, so much when you're riding. Your legs at one point were so far forward and then so far back that it was throwing off your balance completely. Which brings me to another point, your balance is still painful to watch. 

When you're at the trot and even sometimes the walk, you can clearly see that for whatever reason your horse is uncomfortable, his head is up in the air, his mouth is open chomping on the bit, and his tail (which isn't always a sign of discomfort, though in this case it looks to be) is up. He uncomfortable going both directions. There is no denying that something is going on physically with him. It could be a number of things from your weight, your riding in general, his back, eta..


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

offinthedistance said:


> Counter clockwise shows an issue in trot. That horse is shouting at you. The head throwing, chewing and ear position as well as what I see as a twist in his back end indicate some pain issue to me.


Actually what he is does going counter clockwise is he grabs at the bit and tries to take off, because it's a Fulmer it just slides on the loose rings instead and he gets super ticked off. His previous owner sold him because he used to grab the bit and bolt and ended up dumping her. He has also done it with two different trainers, and he does it on the ground on the lunge. He HAS had a chiro out and a vet who both say there is NOTHING physically wrong with him.

Are you saying that it is not normal for a really green horse to behave this way? I thought it was, my other green horses did this and am being told it is, but if you guys say it's NOT then maybe I should have a third and maybe forth opinion out on his back/hips??? I am willing to do this 



White Foot said:


> you can clearly see that for whatever reason your horse is uncomfortable, his head is up in the air, his mouth is open chomping on the bit, and his tail (which isn't always a sign of discomfort, though in this case it looks to be) is up.


My trainer as well as the other trainer say this is because he's green green green green green and he hasn't been taught to go on the bit, have a head set, absolutely NOTHING. All he has ever done is learn to allow a rider to sit on his back at a walk, trot, and when on the lunge canter (no rider since that first vid) all with loose rein and doing whatever he wants with his head. His previous owner only rode him herself 3 times and cranked his head with a curb unfortunately he would grab it and bolt/dump her. 

Yes, my weight is a slight issue, and I am working on that, however the vet, chiro, trainers all say I am not overweight for him at all. The two trainers who have been on him do not have a weight issue, and he is the same for them. They say he's green and we will bring him up slowly. I have had no lessons on him as neither trainer has any opening until the 15th of this month. They have gotten on him to see what is horse and what is me, and have been giving me tips based on how they have seen me ride, but nothing formal. I only ride him for about 15-20 min, everything else is all lunge work, hours of lunge.


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## offinthedistance (Feb 28, 2009)

Counter clockwise he's chomping more and looking more stressed than clockwise. Does he grab the bit in both directions? When did he last have his teeth checked and filed? Is there a rub on the inside of his cheek?
Your weight is no issue for that horse.
'Hours of lunge' for a green horse sounds like hard work to me. Little and often, lots of standing around (with bridle and saddle on), and maybe cut back on the trot until he's accepting of the bit in walk. Otherwise aren't you just giving him the message that it's ok to take off with the bit, shake the head etc?
I still think there's an issue somewhere. i wouldn't be happy riding mine if he had his ears back and was signalling something to me like this. I would investigate more. It would be a shame to push a green horse through a problem he's having. and no, I don't think it's 'normal' for a green horse to be this way. Start as you mean to go on.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Wow, you have put a lot of work in and there is a huge improvement as a result! Good on you for losing some weight, I can see a difference for sure - and in such a short time too.

1.) Heels down, calves in, toes forward. Try not to grip with your knees and let your legs fall down onto the girth rather than having them sticking out. Make sure your stirrups are on the ball of your foot, it looks like your foot might be a little too far into your stirrup. There should be an invisible line from your eye to your knee to your toe and another line from your shoulder to your hip to your heel.

2.) Thumbs up, elbows in. There should be an invisible line from your elbow to your wrist to the bit (i.e. along the rein). Ask and release, ask and release - the half halt is your friend! Also, sit back at the trot, your upper body creeps forwards quite a bit, keep those shoulders back!

3.) I agree with others and it looks like Cinny is short striding with his back legs. This could be from a bladder infection as you mentioned, a sore back (check for sore points) or some stiffness in his hips. Maybe post some video of him lunging so it is easier to see what is going on? If he has sore points in his back it may be from riding in a saddle that is a tad small for you, could be worthwhile investing in a gel pad to go under the saddle as this will dissipate some of the pressure.

4.) I know Cinny was trying to canter rather than trot but I think you need more trot out of him and he is uncomfortable with the kind of 'half trot' that he is doing at the moment. There is a fine line for a young horse between a nice working trot and moving into a canter but I think you will find he will move out at a trot much nicer if you allow more freedom of movement.

Great job though, it seems like you really love this horse and are willing to put the hard yards into learning and working with him and yourself, I really wish you the best.
-Sarah.

P.S. Your indoor arena is awesome and makes me cry with jealousy! There is an indoor at one of the places I am working at but it isn't NEARLY as nice as yours!!


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> My trainer as well as the other trainer say this is because he's green green green green green and he hasn't been taught to go on the bit, have a head set, absolutely NOTHING. All he has ever done is learn to allow a rider to sit on his back at a walk, trot, and when on the lunge canter (no rider since that first vid) all with loose rein and doing whatever he wants with his head. His previous owner only rode him herself 3 times and cranked his head with a curb unfortunately he would grab it and bolt/dump her.
> 
> Yes, my weight is a slight issue, and I am working on that, however the vet, chiro, trainers all say I am not overweight for him at all. The two trainers who have been on him do not have a weight issue, and he is the same for them. They say he's green and we will bring him up slowly. I have had no lessons on him as neither trainer has any opening until the 15th of this month. They have gotten on him to see what is horse and what is me, and have been giving me tips based on how they have seen me ride, but nothing formal. I only ride him for about 15-20 min, everything else is all lunge work, hours of lunge.


I've worked with trainers and my horse was green, my horse did *not*, nor did the others show as much stress as yours is in. The most they would do is chew on the bit. Actually, for being a green horse he shouldn't be showing that many signs of distress. Something somewhere is wrong.

In my non-professional opinion If your trainers are telling you that the horse is acting this way because he's green and that he's fine, I would probably start looking for a new trainer. 

I'm not saying he isn't a good size for you. But, you are a heavy person who has no balance, in a saddle that is too small, with only one saddle pad?. With that being said, if you come crashing down on him posting or aren't soft and light when you sit then the horse is going to resist and be uncomfortable. Which would go for any rider light or heavy.. 

And your right, he could be perfectly healthy. From what I've seen he could be acting that way because he's sick of you getting in his face, throwing off his balance, giving him the wrong cues. It could be a number of things you're doing.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

I think the saddle fits you better than it looks. You are just "in the back seat". Once you bring that leg under you more, and pull the shoulders back a bit, it should bring your seat down into the saddle better. Right now you are way behind the center of the seat. You look a ton better, and definitely more relaxed in the second video. Keep at it, and get suggestions from your trainer about getting that lower leg under you. You look great.


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