# Possible candidate for daughter--are his back legs okay?



## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

We're looking at horses for my daughter for 4-H. This is one that caught our eye. I did realize he hasn't been gelded yet, so that might be an issue. We are working with our trainer so she'll call the owners and make a final call. I was looking at the pictures again and it looks to me that the hind legs are a little different. These aren't the best confo shots, so I'm really only asking about his hind legs. To me, they look like they're too far under him. Am I correct, or is it possibly just not the best photos for this?

APHA 3 yrs old Colt, paint, 4 sale or trade, grandson to Lucky Straw

Again, I'm too new to be doing this alone so I am very grateful for our trainer who is doing a lot of the groundwork for us. She is amazing and is determined to find the right horse for our daughter. Also, before anyone jumps all over me for looking at a 3 year old, I would ride with lessons for the year while my daughter continued to lease her current 4-H project for this year. I will not put my kid on a horse that she isn't ready to ride, but I don't want to buy a horse that is nearing retirement because I already know that my daughter's first horse will be a part of our family for life, if it's nearing retirement, we'll be starting the search over again too soon. We are looking at horses under 10.


----------



## Hidalgo13 (Dec 24, 2010)

It;s good you would ride the horse and train it before you handed to your daughter, but before that horse is safe and reliable enough for her (as she looks quite young in your avatar), it might take a few years. Firstly because the horse hasn't finished growing yet and at 3, he still has a lot to learn. Of course it depends on how soon you want her to ride him. If Let's say you would pass her to him in 2-3 years and he is a very calm, willing horse, then ok. If you are thinking any sooner than that and he happens to have small issues that could still be difficult for your daughter to control (as she isn't very strong or big yet), than pass the horse and get soemthing older.

You don't need to get a 15 year old! But a 5-6 year old horse woudl already be better (if the horse has the appropriate disposition of course). Remeber younger horses are like crazy teens. They are learning and WILL do crazy stuff sometimes before learning they shouldn't and you won;t let them.


----------



## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

Hidalgo13 said:


> It;s good you would ride the horse and train it before you handed to your daughter, but before that horse is safe and reliable enough for her (as she looks quite young in your avatar), it might take a few years. Firstly because the horse hasn't finished growing yet and at 3, he still has a lot to learn. Of course it depends on how soon you want her to ride him. If Let's say you would pass her to him in 2-3 years and he is a very calm, willing horse, then ok. If you are thinking any sooner than that and he happens to have small issues that could still be difficult for your daughter to control (as she isn't very strong or big yet), than pass the horse and get soemthing older.
> 
> You don't need to get a 15 year old! But a 5-6 year old horse woudl already be better (if the horse has the appropriate disposition of course). Remeber younger horses are like crazy teens. They are learning and WILL do crazy stuff sometimes before learning they shouldn't and you won;t let them.


Thanks. Those pictures are a year and a half old and I can't remember how to change them. My daughter would not ride him this year at all, unless my trainer felt like she was ready to. If he wouldn't work next year, we already have another lease horse on the backburner. I trust my trainer very much to know my daughter and the horse. I'm trying not to sound like a bragging mother...our trainer says that she does not ride like a kid, she rides like she has the gift. While she's just shy of 10, physically, she's the size of many of my freshmen students. 

Again, I will defer to our trainer since she knows my daughter and her level, and knows horses well. I trust her judgement very much.


----------



## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

For starters, the horse is really cute. It does seem a little cow hocked in the back which isn't always a real big deal depending on what your plans are, some deciplines may be harder for it than others (ie juping). I personally don't like his front legs. In most of the shots he looks a bit knee back and like his weight is forced back a tad on his feet, right onto the navicular bone. Your trainer would probably be able to tell for sure in person. I am really wary of horses that have the knees slightly back and the weight distributed like this because they are more prone to navicular issues and at an earlier age.

Navicular is manageable and isn't a death sentence for the horse. However it can be costly to manage correctly and it isn't always a guarantee the horse won't be in pain.


----------



## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

I personally would move on and look for a different horse.

First of all - they say he can be registered. With how old he is getting him registered is going to cost a small fortune. In this economy you can find a registered horse, gelded, etc for a similar price - or cheaper. 

I know you want to find a young horse, but I would still recommend at least having your lower cut-off at 5 years. At least they are approaching mental maturity at that age which works better as a child's mount. I would also look for a horse that was gelded at a young age. At 3 his hormones have probably kicked in and it could lead to some undesirable behavior even after he is gelded. 

As to the horse's conformation - the first thing that jumps out at me is how sickle hocked he is. I'm also curious to see how down-hill he is. Majority of the photos in their photobucket account have him standing on a hill which is always a red flag to me. Standing on a hill like that will make them appear level and can also help mask other undesirable traits. I also really do not like how straight that shoulder is. 

Good luck on finding your daughter a suitable mount that will stay sound for many years. Personally I'm thinking this one is not it.


----------



## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> For starters, the horse is really cute. It does seem a little cow hocked in the back which isn't always a real big deal depending on what your plans are, some deciplines may be harder for it than others (ie juping). I personally don't like his front legs. In most of the shots he looks a bit knee back and like his weight is forced back a tad on his feet, right onto the navicular bone. Your trainer would probably be able to tell for sure in person. I am really wary of horses that have the knees slightly back and the weight distributed like this because they are more prone to navicular issues and at an earlier age.
> 
> Navicular is manageable and isn't a death sentence for the horse. However it can be costly to manage correctly and it isn't always a guarantee the horse won't be in pain.


Thanks. I guess I never really noticed his front legs. This is the information I want to know. As I said, any horse we get will be with us for a long time, and the hope is that my daughter will be able to finish 4-h with this horse. That means at least 8 more years of riding quite regularly, but probably longer. During the summer any horse we own will be used 5-6 days a week. I don't want a horse that won't be able to keep up with her.


----------



## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

Cat said:


> I personally would move on and look for a different horse.
> 
> First of all - they say he can be registered. With how old he is getting him registered is going to cost a small fortune. In this economy you can find a registered horse, gelded, etc for a similar price - or cheaper.
> 
> ...


Thanks. The lack of being gelded might have just crossed him off the list. I didn't realize that at first. As I'm still trying to learn as much about conformation as possible, I was especially interested in his legs because they didn't look right...I couldn't put a label on what I saw, but it wasn't right. I appreciate your feedback.


----------



## proequine (Jul 9, 2009)

Your right, these photos are really bad for judging a horse.??
_Great Color_ which is all you can see. 
Please tell me you and your trainer *will be seeing this horse live before you buy???* If not walk away... This market, there are so many good horses out there. I would be worried that the seller is NOT squaring this horse up and showing any full leg shots. LF pastern is turned out in the 1 shot, chest looks narrow,... horse will *not* be a contender in a "halter class" if she is thinking of showing... 
You did not explain what she likes to ride? or if she has the "show bug?" Your daughter sounds tall for her age, if she is riding English, that would be something else to consider. 
I also vote for a 5-6 year old, with additional training.


----------



## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

proequine said:


> Your right, these photos are really bad for judging a horse.??
> _Great Color_ which is all you can see.
> Please tell me you and your trainer *will be seeing this horse live before you buy???* If not walk away... This market, there are so many good horses out there. I would be worried that the seller is NOT squaring this horse up and showing any full leg shots. LF pastern is turned out in the 1 shot, chest looks narrow,... horse will *not* be a contender in a "halter class" if she is thinking of showing...
> You did not explain what she likes to ride? or if she has the "show bug?" Your daughter sounds tall for her age, if she is riding English, that would be something else to consider.
> I also vote for a 5-6 year old, with additional training.


Yes, we would see the horse before we buy. We're hoping for a trial as well, but that's not always an option. A vet check is also something we've saved for. 

She would be doing performance 4-H. She'd love to do reining but they do not offer that aroundhere for 4-H so it would be Western Pleasure 1st, then English pleasure (and equitation, trail, showmanship, etc.) Our barn has a challenge trail course in the back yard so she'd be doing quite a bit of that, and trail rides locally (with our trainer, and some of the others from the barn).

Her size is a concern. She is 5' tall and won't be 10 until March. She's 100lbs now. She's solid. Not fat, but the girl is solid. If she's playing around and shoulders you, you notice. She also wears a size 8 boot right now. If her feet are an indication, she's got a lot of growing to do. She grew 5 inches last school year!

She does a few local schooling shows for practice, and I know she'd like to do more, but as her current (lease) horse is aged, we go easy on him. 

I finally figured out how to change my sig pic so you have a better idea of her size. That horse is 14.2.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Hello Fowl Play, (from another Washingtonian)

I think he is a bit sickle hocked, I am afraid. I didnt' see anything with the knee. The hind end is in general, a bit weak of conformation, but not a huge deal for 4 H type uses. 
If you want him and his mind is good, I can see that he would be usealbe by a youngster in a few years,. maybe less. I know that most people would say dont' do this, and in honesty, I do think you would be better off to buy a slightly older horse, whose temperament would be more fixed, but it isn't impossible, what you are contemplating. I just wonder why? It's like you are looking to take the harder path and I am confused why anyone would want to take the harder path?

Inany case, you asked about his legs, and I do think he is a bit sickle hocked. Best of luck with whatever choice you make.


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I don't think I've ever seen a horse with hind legs that long. :shock:
That's what's making him adopt such a sickled posture. He looks more like a gaited horse than a stock horse.

Now, this isn't the world's worst conformation flaw, but for that price, and with this horse's other issues, I'd sure pass and consider the much greater bang for my buck I could get elsewhere.


----------



## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

He's out. Trainer has something else up her sleeve.


----------



## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Fowl Play said:


> He's out. Trainer has something else up her sleeve.


You want to share the news? Now I'm curious! :wink:


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Please find your daughter a nice safe older mount. 10 years old is in the prime of a horses life. A ten year old horse is old enough to be seasoned and safe yet still be around for at least 10 more years and probably 15 or 20. If I were looking for a horse for my kids I would look at a horse younger than eight and there would be no upper limit. If the horse is sound and suitable then I would consider a much older horse.

Your trainer has bills to pay and likes long term customers. There is nothing wrong with that but realize that you are the one spending the money here. You would be much better off buying a horse your daughter can ride now and letting HER take lessons for a year before competing on it than to get a young horse and risk souring her on horses after you have made a huge investment.


----------



## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Please find your daughter a nice safe older mount. 10 years old is in the prime of a horses life. A ten year old horse is old enough to be seasoned and safe yet still be around for at least 10 more years and probably 15 or 20. If I were looking for a horse for my kids I would look at a horse younger than eight and there would be no upper limit. If the horse is sound and suitable then I would consider a much older horse.
> 
> Your trainer has bills to pay and likes long term customers. There is nothing wrong with that but realize that you are the one spending the money here. You would be much better off buying a horse your daughter can ride now and letting HER take lessons for a year before competing on it than to get a young horse and risk souring her on horses after you have made a huge investment.


A safe horse is our number 1 priority. We are not in a place where I can keep a horse, and now that we have an upside down mortgage, I don't forsee us being in that place for quite some time. I need a horse that will last for quite some time because I anticipate paying board for this horse for quite some time. I don't want to be paying board on a horse that cannot be used for what we need it to be used for, but as this is my daughter's 1st horse, I also know that it will be a horse that we have until it dies, hence the younger age. 

Yes, my trainer does like the idea of long term clients, but she has made it very clear that we will keep using the horse my daughter is riding until we find the right one, and if we don't find him before next 4-H year, we have another one in the works. She could be talking us into any horse because it means 1-2 lessons/week for me, plus board, but she's in no hurry for us to get a horse just to have a horse. As for what she has up her sleeve, God only knows. She made a call on one today. Who knows. As I've said, I have faith in her finding a good match for my daughter.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

FWIW, I've met horses in their 20s with LOTS of get up and go. About a month ago, I saw a rider with a pinto/arabian cross. She was struggling to hold her mare back - prancing around, light on her feet, dancing and ready to roll. It turned out the mare was 22...

If looking for a horse for my daughter to ride for 10+ years, I wouldn't look at a horse under 6. 8 would be better. 10-12 years with good conformation would be fine. Just IMHO.

BTW - the trainer who is working with my mare had a daughter who was fanatical about horses. Rode every day. From 8 to 14. Hasn't ridden more than a handful of times a year since.


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Fowl Play said:


> A safe horse is our number 1 priority. We are not in a place where I can keep a horse, and now that we have an upside down mortgage, I don't forsee us being in that place for quite some time. I need a horse that will last for quite some time because I anticipate paying board for this horse for quite some time. *I don't want to be paying board on a horse that cannot be used for what we need it to be used for*, but as this is my daughter's 1st horse, I also know that it will be a horse that we have until it dies, hence the younger age.
> 
> Yes, my trainer does like the idea of long term clients, but she has made it very clear that we will keep using the horse my daughter is riding until we find the right one, and if we don't find him before next 4-H year, we have another one in the works. She could be talking us into any horse because it means 1-2 lessons/week for me, plus board, but she's in no hurry for us to get a horse just to have a horse. As for what she has up her sleeve, God only knows. She made a call on one today. Who knows. As I've said, I have faith in her finding a good match for my daughter.


 
This statement concerns me a bit. Most of us certainly do not intend that, and I am sure your trainer doesn't either, but nothing comes with a guarantee. You never know what will happen a week down the road, much less 10 yrs.


----------



## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

Okay, I guess I haven't really had the opportunity to explain our situation fully. It started with a question about a horses legs. I am not going into this blindly, nor do I want the horse "my kid can grow up with". I want a horse my daughter can ride hard for the next 10 years+. She has been riding in lessons for just shy of 4 years now, we leased a horse for 4-H last year, and are again this year. Myself AND my husband have been taking riding lessons, doing clinics, attending seminars, etc to prepare ourselves for horse ownership. We clean stalls once a week or more and I help give lessons to a group of beginners. My husband works on any project our trainer's husband can come up with, including new fences, new obstacles in the trail course, a new arena fence, hay (we put up 1000 bales this year). My daughter also helps in beginner lessons and camp. Before we even considered buying a horse, we have fully emersed ourselves in this lifestyle. 

Unlike many families who go out and buy a cheap horse that is not meant or trained for their kid's needs, I am searching the help and guidance of a professional who knows my daughter and her skill well. As I've said, I trust her with my daughter's life. She chooses the 1000 lb animal to put my baby on. I do not consider myself prepared to go and look at a horse without her. It is her idea to put me on the horse for the year and leave my daughter on the lease for the remainder of the 4-H year. She believes that (with her help) I can bring the right horse along enough to put my daughter on next year WITH INSTRUCTION. 

Like anyone, I have a price range, and we are looking at horses within that price range, and within driving distance because we HAVE to see the horse. Ideally, we could do a 1 month trial so we could be in control of the horse for a vet check, but that's not always an option. 

As for my daughter, she's completely happy with the current situation, but knows that this will be her last year with this horse. He cannot keep up with her at the pace she likes to go. Right now she gets to ride the love of her life, and she knows we're looking for her next horse. What more could a kid want?

Please understand that I am not going into this blindly. I have an excellent mentor who knows my budget and my kid. We are also doing what we can as her parents to prepare ourselves.


----------



## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

bsms said:


> FWIW, I've met horses in their 20s with LOTS of get up and go. About a month ago, I saw a rider with a pinto/arabian cross. She was struggling to hold her mare back - prancing around, light on her feet, dancing and ready to roll. It turned out the mare was 22...
> 
> If looking for a horse for my daughter to ride for 10+ years, I wouldn't look at a horse under 6. 8 would be better. 10-12 years with good conformation would be fine. Just IMHO.
> 
> BTW - the trainer who is working with my mare had a daughter who was fanatical about horses. Rode every day. From 8 to 14. Hasn't ridden more than a handful of times a year since.



I agree, don't completely count out an older horse. I got my first 2 horses when I was 12(13 years ago) they were sold to us as 15/16 but ended up being 20-25. The mare, Tiffany passed away when I was 18 but was sound and rideable up until the end, The gelding, Blue, I still have and if it wasn't for a recent injury he would still be rideable, he has tons of get up and go and will chase the horse half his age around the pasture and he's between 33-38 years old now. If a horse is well taken care of they can be sound and rideable until their 30's. Sure it is more of a gamble but there is nothing like a trusted older horse you can go for a good gallop on.


----------



## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Fowl Play said:


> She also wears a size 8 boot right now. If her feet are an indication, she's got a lot of growing to do. She grew 5 inches last school year!


hehe, I wonder how tall you are?

I was 5'1 in the sixth grade and I wear an 8 1/2 shoe.

I grew another couple inches in my Jr year of HS (LOL I don't think that's the usual thing for girls? xD), but finished off at not quite 5'3.

My daughter on the other hand is predicted to be 5'10...I'm jealous!


----------



## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

demonwolfmoon said:


> hehe, I wonder how tall you are?
> 
> I was 5'1 in the sixth grade and I wear an 8 1/2 shoe.
> 
> ...


I'm 5'7" but I have a grandma and great grandma that were 6' tall. My mom's side of the family is very short so I'm a decent mix. She's 5' in 4th grade. Even if she stops growing in 6th grade, at the rate she's been growing she'll be a minimum of 5'8". We'll see.


----------



## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

I think it's great that you're taking such an interest in your daughter's horsey-ness and actually buying her a horse when she's ten. I am so so envious of her. What a lucky kid!  

On the train with the others (just to beat that some more, haha) about an older horse (not saying you should get one this old, of course) but I got my mare three years ago when she was 23 and have been riding her hard ever since. I even find her completely overwhelming, at times, with her love of running and her sassy-ness. haha 
Of course, I don't do anything like jumping her, just trail riding, but we trail ride on asphalt regularly and she's holding up just fine. Most of what we don't do is limited by the fact that we don't have access to a trailer. If we had access to a trailer, we'd be showing like crazy and whupping patooties. :lol:
Actually, last year, right after she turned 26, was when I first started her on any sort of joint supplement due to her age and nothing else. I forsee any children I might have, eventually, riding her happily when she's 35 or more (barring any sort of medical issue). As long as a major health issue doesn't stop her, she's looking at being around for at least the next 10 to 15 years.


Just find a well conformed horse, preferably one started late (less wear on joints and such), of a breed known for longevity (Arabs, Arab crosses, that sort of thing), about 10 years old, and you're looking at a horse that, barring a major medical situation that you can't predict, will be with you for the next 25-30 years with ease, even with hard riding.


Good luck! I'm still crazy envious of your daughter.


----------



## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

Wallaby said:


> Just find a well conformed horse, preferably one started late (less wear on joints and such), of a breed known for longevity (Arabs, Arab crosses, that sort of thing), about 10 years old, and you're looking at a horse that, barring a major medical situation that you can't predict, will be with you for the next 25-30 years with ease, even with hard riding.
> 
> 
> Good luck! I'm still crazy envious of your daughter.


We are looking at AQHA or APHA geldings that are bred for pleasure. We've done a lot of talking, thinking, etc. and that's what will be best for our family.


----------



## newhorsemom (Jun 20, 2008)

I can't offer any confirmation critique as I too had a hard time getting past the age and not being gelded for your situation.

I also have a 10-year old daughter in 4-H and she has been riding for about 5 years now. She joined in 4-H about 2 1/2 years ago and have been lightly showing for 2 years. We plan to show more in 2012. We took lessons for a while and about 3 1/2 years ago we bought a horse so I know where you are coming from. A couple of things to consider as a mom:

1. Your daughters riding interests may change as she gets older and exposed to more disciplines. My daughter is developing her passion but still has the ol' "I want to try that - it really looks like fun!". Let her give some things a try as it will only make her a better rider. Keep that in mind as you are looking - be open to a horse that is versatile. 

2. I certainly respect that your daughter has natural ability (sounds like she has great training to go with it and will probably be very successful!!) however, she hasn't had enough experience at 10-years old to handle some situations that might come up with a very young horse. I know you said that you trust your trainer, as you should, but you will probably find that you will be handling/showing/riding the horse without the trainer around sometimes as your daughter grows in her horse adventure. If a horse is still developing and she is out somewhere when your trainer isn't available you want a horse that has some serious basics engrained in it for safety sake. Also, it could backfire and your daughter could lose some of her confidence and take some steps backward. 

Because your daughter has such talent I don't blame you for not wanting a "been there done that" horse. Maybe a horse that is broke and safe, but not yet trained for what she wants. Your daughter could learn so much from training her own horse and sounds like she is very capable with knowledgeable supervision.


----------

