# How to tell if the horse is working from behind (back to front)



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

It's not a stupid question at all! :wink: In fact I was asking it myself for quite a while, because my horse was on forehand all the time (and being a beginner I couldn't really see/feel the difference)... 

But, yes, you can really tell when horse rounds and works from behind. You'll feel the back different and movement is different. If you are not very experienced you may want someone on ground to tell you several times, so you could catch those moments for yourself. Then you'll know for sure what to look/feel for. 

Actually my trainer once showed me the roundness from the ground (while I was on horse). After a good warm-up she put the hands under my qh's belly and pushed her up. I could feel the difference VERY well!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

That is such a good question and I am surprised that the big level dressage riders have not jumped on it yet. Ladies?

As for me, low level rider that I am, I have felt that elusive feeling. So hard to describe. i think when my horse starts working from behind I feel a kind of surge, and the shoulders start to feel kind of "steadier". It becomes easier to post , easier to keep your hands steady, even the footfalls become quieter. I am trying to visualize that feeling right now, in my chair at night.
I think that feeling of steadiness in the shouler and neck/mouth is something I can remember clearly. Of course, one also feels the back come up. I was just trying to think of anything else to add.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

A good trainer will help you learn how to _feel_ roundness. There are quite a few threads (particularly in the Dressage section) that speak on the subject


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

I'll take a better look in the dressage section, i glanced but didn't have a lot of time yesterday so i'll definately take a closer look and see what i can find.

I thought i'd need someone to point it out from the ground so i can get a better feel as it happens. I guess my next step is to find an instructor that can come out to my barn, i don't have access to a trailer.

i'll try and feel if my horse gets any steadier and until i find an instructor i'll keep riding, maybe i can get one of my barn buddies to tickle my horses belly and see if he lfts his back while i'm on him. 

thanks


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## EmilyandNikki (Sep 7, 2010)

I'm sorry that I can be of no help here. I sort of "feel" if the horse is using his hind-end, but I don't know how to explain it...


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

Thats okay, it sort of looks like i'm going to have to get an instructor who can help me from th ground so i can 'feel' it for myself and know what to look for.


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## Valentina (Jul 27, 2009)

If the horse is working from behind and round you will visually see a bulge in the middle of it's neck. When you're taking a lesson ask trainer to help you get horse working from behind then without tilting your head down look down with your eyees ONLY and see if you see any bulging". The more often you get horse working this way the more horse will develop the correct muscles and you'll be able to notice the bulge easier. 

Another method I've used in the past was if horse was walking and I quietly asked for a canter transition - if she walked or trotted then she was "behind the leg", if she went right into a canter without alot of kicking/pushing/prodding from me then she was in front of the leg. If I had to use a lot of energy to get a timely transition then she was not "working from behind". 

It is NOT a stupid question.  People say feel the back come up but that can be very difficult on some horses, especially those that love to go hollow.


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

I'll try to look for a bulge in his neck, and hopefully when i get an instructor i will have help in working out if i'm getting it right! My horse does have quite a chunky neck for his size, he's mostly just a neck and a large *** at this point, but i'll give it a go.

He's lost a lot of back muscle while losing weight and does like to be hollow and honestly i don't know what it feels like when a horses back comes up, but i'll definitely try and feel it if it all comes together. I've been reading some of the other threads and have got some good pointer from them which should help.

i do a lot of work at liberty with him as he seems to use his body better when i'm not interfering and as you can see he does have a fat neck.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Phoenix,

Your horse has a rather long back and short neck. I will be harder for him to tuck his pelvis under and it's harder for you get him to give to the bit. Not nice to hear that, I guess. But he is really a nice looking horse, and I bet if you really got him going, his hind end has power. 
Some people liken the feel of having a horse working from back to front as when you are in a speed boat and you gun the motor and the front end lifts as the propeller really dig into the water.
To get the same feeling from a horse, you have to have a horse that will drive forward vigorously using his hind legs to push (so accelerating) but you have to put a boundary to that forward energy , like a "wall" so that the forward push has the effect of making the front end lighten as the rear end digs in to push.


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

He does have a stubby thick neck, and yes his back is quite ridiculous. He's a mustang/appaloosa mix which is just a recipe for a weird baby. At this point i am happy to be riding him at all, he also has wonky hips and was out of work for a while, he was actually a retired pasture potato until last year. He still can't canter under saddle without being hopelessly unbalanced (we are working on it). The year before last my instructor told me to take him to a sale and get meat money for him, which is why i am currently without an instructor.

I'm not hoping to compete or anything with him, i just want him to work mostly correctly so that his muscles don't develop wrong, you know. 

So basically get the power first before i try and engage it, okay i can work on that.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Valentina, I have never heard of looking for the bulge in the neck - that method would lead me to believe that most riders would focus on the neck ("must make that bulge!") rather than feeling for the lightness and roundness. 
Phoenix, it's hard to describe, but there are lots of threads on the subject - I suggest looking around the Dressage section for some very interesting and informative discussion. It is really helpful having an instructor to help you connect the feel to the movements. It really does feel like you have the horse's energy in front of your leg, contained by your seat and back, and rerouted back into the horse with your hand.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Valentina said:


> If the horse is working from behind and round you will visually see a bulge in the middle of it's neck.



JDI-----Surprised that you were unaware of this really only visible aid.

Judges will look for the crease that it produces and want to see that crease fluid. The bulge produced above the crease is created by the horse fully accepting the bit.

While many mistake the outline of a horse "on the bit" as working from the rear that is not always correct and the best way a rider can tell (other than the bulge) is to create a small "U" turn and see if the horse falls either in or out of the path. Rarely will a horse truly working correctly deviate from the turn and the rider will feel like they are being carried around the turn and not trying to follow or motivate the horse beyond the simplest and lightest of aids. 

Here in this picture you can see the bulge and the crease Valentina is talking about.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Great picture Spyder!

This is from the Sustainable Dressage Website:

"A nicely filled out topline of the neck is always desirable. When it swells with muscles, it shows the horse's correct training to be able to arch the neck (and the back) into collection. Unfortunately, it can bulge in a wrong way, too, which is only too ofthen observed in the competition arena. 

Overbending the joint between the 2nd and 3rd vertebra also produces bulging muscles, but these come from the kink in the vertebral column, not from arching.

The correct "bulge" goes all the way from the shoulderblade to the poll, and is smooth like a loaf of bread. This is evidence of a spinal column suspended from the strong topline muscles, just like it should be. What it shouldnt look like, is a bulge only at each side at the top of the neck, usually with a sharp shadow underneath it. 

This is a sure sign that the horse is bending excessively at the joint between the 2nd and 3rd vertebrae. This break in the spinal column produces a bulge, because the muscles that are supposed to span the upper line from the withers to the top vertebrae are no longer above the vertebral column. They have their insertion on the poll (the occipital bone) and/or the atlas and axis. As this part is now lower than the top (the upper edge of the axis) they move to the side of the neck instead of being able to span across the topline. Quite remarkable."

Incorrect:










Correct:











Here is the website:

::: Sustainable Dressage - Collection & Its Evasions - True Collection - What It Is and How to Achieve It :::


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Nope, learned to feel, not to judge by the neck. If people don't know the correct "bulge" to look for, I fear that they might start looking at the neck, concentrating on the neck, and not concentrate on feel. Or, as MIE pointed out, look for the wrong bulge. Good to know about the visual aid, though, I've learned something new today.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Folks, you are right about "bulge" being a great visual aid, but only if you know what to look for/how to archive it correctly. If you are the beginner (I'm saying "in general" here) there is a good possibility, that that "bulge" will be the result of tucking the nose in ("to get nice headset"). So I'm still saying "get a good trainer". 

phoenix, my qh has long back and short neck (similar looking to yours). It IS possible to bring it all up :wink: , just more challenging.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

This may have nothing to do with anything, but when you go up a hill, you can feel your horse working from behind.


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## Romantic Lyric (Dec 31, 2009)

...true, but I've had horses fly up a hill with their head jacked up straight in the air and didn't feel much engagement - not to say I'm an expert on the subject my any means. But, yes you're right. When my horse walks or trots up a hill I can usually feel her "motor" revving.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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