# Dogs



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

My horse would kick the dog and then the dog would most likely reconsider.


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## fly123 (Jul 24, 2012)

Celeste said:


> My horse would kick the dog and then the dog would most likely reconsider.


Smart horse.


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## Failbhe (May 8, 2012)

subbing - I'm curious too. Fortunately there aren't a lot of loose dogs around here, but it does happen.


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

One of my horses would either kick or chase the dog without need for encouragement. 

I have a friend who carries a whip. Her horses are fine about it and she knows how to use it safely.

With my other horse though I just face him towards the dog. I have always been told this and it has worked for me. I often find the dogs back off when they find the horse barreling towards them.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Turn your horse to face the dog, if the dog doesnt back down then chase it. First couple of times your horse might not be to sure of this but quickly catch on. It is in their genes to take on predators to protect the herd.


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## fly123 (Jul 24, 2012)

Good idea with the whip. I will take one along on short rides. The face off usually works with less aggressive dogs but i've always been annoyed at the more aggressive dogs.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

In past posts about dogs some have suggested vinegar water in a squirt gun for more aggressive dogs. Shot in the eyes will change their minds.


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## NevCowgirl (Jul 23, 2012)

Darrin said:


> In past posts about dogs some have suggested vinegar water in a squirt gun for more aggressive dogs. Shot in the eyes will change their minds.


 
Yess I could definitely see this working. I use this to discipline my dogs except for just water and the this method works great for a lot of things. My Uncle has a dog that is just a little to much and he is big and likes to jump on you and hes so sweet but doesnt realize his size and as soon as he gets one squirt from it hes gone... I like all of the ideas but this is a good one too.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

My horse almost killed a pit bull that attacked him once... None of my boys would put up with it, and if the owner got to see their nasty little animal trampled, even better (the pit bull's owners were a bit disappointed that the dog didn't die, apparently it was horrifically aggressive towards horses and nothing they could do other than put it down would stop it from trying to rip into any horse it saw.)
When I see the dogs coming I usually use a loud, stern voice and yell "GO HOME" or some such- in case the dog is actually semi-trained. It can either make the dog go away or at least not come too near and just bark. If they keep coming, I can usually count on my horse to take care of it. If the owner is close I'd suggest letting them know what a horse will do if attacked, and what _you_ will do if your horse is hurt. If they either do nothing or aren't around/are too far away, the dog(s) is/are very aggressive and don't listen, and your horse isn't the fighting type, take off. Save your horse.
When I ride around my house, the dogs are usually just protecting their property so as long as I don't get too close they just bark, or they back off when I tell them to. Its the dogs in the washes and state parks that seem to be an issue... I actually much, much prefer the outside 'protector' dogs, because they do just that- protect, so if you keep distance, they're good.

edit: I agree with Darrin- chase them down if they're too aggressive. The squirt gun idea sounds good too.


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## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

While we were riding down the road, my mare kicked the snot out of a neighbor's dog one time. The whole side of his head swelled up and it looked awful - but it was just nasty bruising and the dog was healed up after a couple of weeks. Neighbor was furious and called the sheriff out, thinking I would be in trouble. He got a ticket for violating the state leash law. Ticket was only $50, but it was enough to get his attention. He kept his dog up after that.

It's funny, because the leash law isn't usually enforced out our way - guess the obnoxious guy really ticked the deputy off.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Our neighborhood doesn't have any really mean dogs. One of our friends was attacked by two pit bulls when he was on his horse. The horse was severely startled and he ended up falling off and getting hurt really badly. The horse stayed and protected him from the dogs. Dogs like that should not be loose. I think that there is a law suit against the dog owners pending.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

dee said:


> While we were riding down the road, my mare kicked the snot out of a neighbor's dog one time. The whole side of his head swelled up and it looked awful - but it was just nasty bruising and the dog was healed up after a couple of weeks. Neighbor was furious and called the sheriff out, thinking I would be in trouble. He got a ticket for violating the state leash law. Ticket was only $50, but it was enough to get his attention. He kept his dog up after that.
> 
> It's funny, because the leash law isn't usually enforced out our way - guess the obnoxious guy really ticked the deputy off.


I think every state has laws that say you have to keep your dog on a leash if it's off your property. Toss in deputies that get annoyed about wasting their time on calls like this and someone is going to get a ticket.


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## soileddove (Jul 27, 2010)

Face off with the dog first. Like you know, they less aggressive ones will back down. If it doesn't, chase it. Sometimes just walking towards it is enough, other times you'll really have to get after it. Its always kind of awkward when the owner is around, but if their dog is off the leash (or out of the yard), they're the ones in the wrong, in most circumstances.

Once at a state park on a trail ride, a large German Shepard came after our horses.. He wouldn't back off so I got my gelding after him. The dog wasn't quick enough and he got stomped pretty good.. Right as the owner comes around the corner talking on her cell phone. She was furious and threatened to call the cops on me.. Etc.. Until I pointed out that her dog was not on a leash and she was the one violating any laws. 

I don't know about the vinegar and spray bottle.. You'd have to keep it at the ready which I think would be a pretty big inconvenience, honestly. I also wouldn't want to let a dog get near enough to reach it with a whip, unless my horse was chasing it down.. That's just my take on it.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I would think that you could put the vinegar and water in a water gun and it would be easier to carry than a water bottle.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

I also yell "GO HOME" to try and get the dogs to go away but if they don't we teach our horses to chase them too. It takes some practice, but once the horses understand the dogs will run they seem to enjoy it .


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## Silent one (Aug 22, 2011)

Generally I face the dog and yell at it, telling it to "Git" or "go home". However that sometimes doesn't work and you have to get aggressive. We do teach our horses to go after the dogs if needed. Having said that though, be prepared for a fight with a dog that won't back off. The scariest situation I had was with a pit bull who would not back off, even when my horse was basically on top of him. Finally got him to back off but not without some wounds to him and my horse as well. Never did find the owner, luckily my horse had rabies shots already. From that point on I have considered carrying a gun. Probably a good idea really, I think I will from now on!


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

We've been lucky. All the dogs we've encountered have turned back when we've yelled at them or started walking towards them with the horses. My first pony LOVED chasing dogs, I had to hold her back  

Thinking about it now though, figuring out what to do if they DONT turn back is a good idea. I don't know why I never thought of it. We have 2 English shepherds that don't bother our horses, but I know if I met 2 similar dogs that weren't trained and didn't know us, our yelling at them or turning our horses towards them would be nothing but a challenge that they'd answer.

When there's more than one dog they tend to be a lot harder to get to back down anyway...


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## BlooBabe (Jul 7, 2012)

I've never had a problem with loose dogs before. I usually ride with my dog unless it's a group and either my dog or horse has been enough to deter any animal that's bothering us.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Like others have said, face off with the dog first and if that doesn't chase him off, then charge him (I prefer to charge at a nice long trot or a lope, that way he doesn't really have time to aim a bite before he gets trampled LOL). There are several things you can carry to ward off an aggressive dog ranging from the vinegar in a squirt gun to a can of stream style pepper spray, though that's a bit more dangerous because if your aim is off, it will really hurt your horse too. I prefer to carry a gun and if the dog won't stop advancing, I'll just shoot it.

However, I know not everyone lives in an area where you _can _carry a gun, nor does everyone want to. As far as I know, though, air pistols that shoot either BBs or pellets are not illegal anywhere (double check your local laws to be sure, though) and they would inflict some serious pain without actually being deadly....normally. Plus, they aren't nearly as loud as a real gun and probably wouldn't get you bucked off LOL.


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

I was thinking a paintball gun might be effective...


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

srh1 said:


> I was thinking a paintball gun might be effective...


It would also let the owner realize that his dog was getting in trouble.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

Put amonia in the squirt gun or bottle and spray the dogs with it. Works better than vineger. Really sends them yelping for home if you can get it in their nose or eyes.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Wow sorta sad how many of you seem to gleeful laugh about having your horses trample or kill dogs, borderline sexual in some of these posts. 

Being your horse people, therefore believe your animal incapable of doing any wrong, (much like some dog owners) I suppose I can understand. I've met many aggressive and dangerous horses that were a physical threat toward humans and animals alike.......there really aught to be some dangerous horse laws.

Its also illegal to willfully damage or destroy others property, online statements are admissions of guilt in a court of law. Off leash laws are not a blanket right to abuse or kill someone else's dog. Chasing the animal off is one thing but to enjoy corning it and letting your horse kill it for amusement is borderline sadist.

That being said self defense is a inherent right of any animal, so no bone to pick there.
I've had my two dogs attacked by dogs and being experience as a trainer / rescuer I know ways to break it up safely. Chasing aways a great idea and re in forces the idea of staying away from horses, trampling only causes emotional and physical trauma, broken bones and damaged organs.

Sad to see such a deep hatred for a specific species of animal among the horse owners.


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

No one on here said anything about letting their horses kill dogs for amusement.

No one said anything about letting their horses corner the dog.

The only reason any of us would let our horses charge a dog is if the dog was a threat to us or our horses and not leaving us alone or responding to us yelling at them or turning our horses to face them. The only way the dog is getting trampled is if it DIDN'T run away from the horse after we had already decided it was necessary to charge them or if it was already right underfoot and there wasn't anything else we could do.

I love dogs, I have rescued, socialized, trained and rehomed a few and I also have one of my own. When she is off my property she is always either on leash in my line of sight and under voice control. It is my responsibility to keep her safe and out of trouble. It wouldn't suprise me if most of the other posters also love most dogs.

I am not going to hold my horse back and let her get hurt by an aggressive dog though. She trusts me to either protect her or let her protect herself. I will do the best I can to be sure we are not put in danger by any dog. Hopefully all that will ever mean is facing off and yelling at the dog but if that means letting my horse chase the dog, trample it, or even me shooting it? Then yes. I will.


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## Randella (Dec 13, 2011)

I've fought fire with fire in this case!

I got a dog, and have trained him to come along on hacks and trail rides quietly. He walks beside my horse (nowhere near the legs or hooves of course), or will go ahead, usually no more than 20 ft. He sits and waits if he gets too far ahead, and will bark if he sees anything on the trail. We have met other hackers with him, and he is trained to sit and stay until we move on. 

We had a few run ins with a couple loose dogs, and mostly, when they see his brawn lumbering forward (100lbs of furry black dog), they generally back off. He will go after the dog if they get too close to the horse's, but he's never done any damage, just a few growls and nips.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

srh1 said:


> No one on here said anything about letting their horses kill dogs for amusement.
> 
> No one said anything about letting their horses corner the dog.
> 
> ...


If your protecting yourself or your horse of course. I've shot and killed wild jacks while in Texas protecting my dog at the time and once when a lamb had been killed. I'd kill a horse o dog protecting my own so I understand that. But you folks laughing about it in your posts only further validates its more than merely a duty and bed come a very entertaining event for you.

Thank you for replying.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Randella said:


> I've fought fire with fire in this case!
> 
> I got a dog, and have trained him to come along on hacks and trail rides quietly. He walks beside my horse (nowhere near the legs or hooves of course), or will go ahead, usually no more than 20 ft. He sits and waits if he gets too far ahead, and will bark if he sees anything on the trail. We have met other hackers with him, and he is trained to sit and stay until we move on.
> 
> We had a few run ins with a couple loose dogs, and mostly, when they see his brawn lumbering forward (100lbs of furry black dog), they generally back off. He will go after the dog if they get too close to the horse's, but he's never done any damage, just a few growls and nips.


That's a good idea. What breed? I normally find mixed breeds the best in training around other animals with the exception of Pyrenees or cattle breeds. Did you also train the horse to equally respect the dog? Often that's not the case.

If so may I ask how? That's one of the reasons I joined. A friend and I will likely share a home out in the sticks and would like peaceful co existence not worried about my two therapy dogs. Advise please?


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## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

Let the horse kick dog, he and the owner could learn a lesson. 

That, or wheel around and face the dog, and run him off. It usually works. 

Good luck, some dogs are just '**** dogs' and think it's a game, and keep coming back and acting obnoxious and annoying your horse. Most of them don't cease the barking even if both you and your horse ignores it and do nothing.


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## Randella (Dec 13, 2011)

colocityboy said:


> That's a good idea. What breed? I normally find mixed breeds the best in training around other animals with the exception of Pyrenees or cattle breeds. Did you also train the horse to equally respect the dog? Often that's not the case.
> 
> If so may I ask how? That's one of the reasons I joined. A friend and I will likely share a home out in the sticks and would like peaceful co existence not worried about my two therapy dogs. Advise please?


My dog is a mix, and it's funny that you say you don't use Great Pyrenees often, as he is half Great Pyrenees! lol he's crossed with a Boarder Collie.

I've had him since he was 8 weeks old, and basically, I started bringing him out into the barn, and around the horses as often as I could. My horse LOVES anything small (kids, dogs, cats, etc), so he immediately struck up a liking for the dog. And with time, they both learned to respect each other (there was one incident with a tail that got stepped on, but it was the the hair on the tip, so no real harm occurred, and it was a good learning experience for them both).

Since I was outside so much, I used a longer leash (12 or 16ft) that I looped around my waist and clipped to the dog, so he would learn to follow me, pay attention and respect my space when I'm on the ground. I did it mostly while I was mucking stalls, or doing outside chores that didn't involve the horses. Once he grew up a little, I introduced a shorter leash (6ft), that I looped around my waist, so the dog had to stay right by my side while I was working with the horses (grooming, and leading them mostly). 

When I was away from the barn, I worked with a professional trainer to get voice commands down perfectly (Sit, Stay, Come, Speak, Go Home, Lay Down, Heel, etc). 

We took him out on his first trail when he was 2.5 years old, with a couple of very laid back, bombproof hack horses. We rode around an area that he knew (about 3km of trail), and brought him back a very happy, tired puppy!

He's 5 now, and still accompanies me on trails. We've also (because of the collie breed in him) got him herding horses now. We only use it in emergencies (horse's get out, etc), but it sure is handy. 

Hope this helps!


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Noooo I meant to say that breed and cattle dogs r natural selection for working with other animals....also very protective breeds.


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## Randella (Dec 13, 2011)

Ohhh gotcha, sorry I misunderstood, or misread!


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

colocityboy said:


> Did you also train the horse to equally respect the dog?
> 
> If so may I ask how? That's one of the reasons I joined. A friend and I will likely share a home out in the sticks and would like peaceful co existence not worried about my two therapy dogs. Advise please?


Horses tend to get used to dogs and pretty much accept them just so long as the dogs do not harass them. My dogs respect the horses because at some point in their lives, they just have to try to chase them. The horses respond by kicking the dog, and the dog learns not to do it again. My horses will chase a dog that is loose in their pasture. The dog learns not to get in the pasture as a result.

They will not bother a dog while I am riding unless I turn them toward the dog or unless the dog is right on their heels. My mare tends to get irritated with my dog, but she respects me. I pull back on the reins if she tries to attack my own dog and she stops. Several gentle corrections and she ignores the dog. 

If someone's dog nips her heels, nature will take its course and the dog will get the education it needs. A dog getting kicked, chased, or otherwise picked on by a horse can save that dog's life because he won't bother horses again. 

I would think that your own dogs will get kicked once and then their good sense will kick in and they will be careful.


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## Randella (Dec 13, 2011)

Celeste said:


> Horses tend to get used to dogs and pretty much accept them just so long as the dogs do not harass them. My dogs respect the horses because at some point in their lives, they just have to try to chase them. The horses respond by kicking the dog, and the dog learns not to do it again. My horses will chase a dog that is loose in their pasture. The dog learns not to get in the pasture as a result.
> 
> They will not bother a dog while I am riding unless I turn them toward the dog or unless the dog is right on their heels. My mare tends to get irritated with my dog, but she respects me. I pull back on the reins if she tries to attack my own dog and she stops. Several gentle corrections and she ignores the dog.
> 
> ...


That's exactly right! You try to train them not too, but they will defy you just once. And that's all it'll take for them to get stepped on, nipped, or kicked. And they sure as hell won't be doing it again.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Right. The horse does the training.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Randella said:


> My dog is a mix, and it's funny that you say you don't use Great Pyrenees often, as he is half Great Pyrenees! lol he's crossed with a Boarder Collie.
> 
> I've had him since he was 8 weeks old, and basically, I started bringing him out into the barn, and around the horses as often as I could. My horse LOVES anything small (kids, dogs, cats, etc), so he immediately struck up a liking for the dog. And with time, they both learned to respect each other (there was one incident with a tail that got stepped on, but it was the the hair on the tip, so no real harm occurred, and it was a good learning experience for them both).
> 
> ...


Hello again,

Thank you kindly for the reply. Its useful however the animals will all be adults and as such was interested in teaching horse to respect the dogs. I train as a hobby, the certification was merely an extension I felt gave more credibility. I can out train many forms of aggression or predator out of a dog using non treat reward training with praise or. Mix of verbal/physical discipline. Depends on how independent or head strong the dog is, which depends on the owner and how strong his leadership position is in other dogs mind.

I tend to shy away from a treat bases training regiment as its merely the distraction vs the treat.....and a strong distraction will win 9 out of 10 times. As a result its far better to use treats after the ground works played down as absolute law for the dog. First and best is proper leash manners, without that all other training will be difficult, kudos to u for knowing this and trading with it.

How can you train the horse to fully respect the dogs in return? Help?


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Sounds dangerous and your horse may kill your of if he's not paying attention or is caught by surprise. That's not trading your horse to respect the dog one bit, its asking one to be injured.

I don't wan that. Its obvious your """training"""" methology is flawed. You don't care bout the dog being injured or killed where as I do. This was a question of training the HORSE to respect the dog as the dog is trained the same. Typical horse owner response. One kick at the right place will kill the dog. I don't agree with you not caring but respect I couldn't change it.

Thank you for the input however.


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## Randella (Dec 13, 2011)

Well, it depends on the horse. 

Mostly it's getting both animals to understand, and recognize the body language, and behaviour of the other. 

I don't have much other advice because my horses have always been used to dogs. None of them seem to have an issue. Basically from what I've seen, as long as the horse doesn't feel threatened, they don't really care.


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## Randella (Dec 13, 2011)

colocityboy said:


> Sounds dangerous and your horse may kill your of if he's not paying attention or is caught by surprise. That's not trading your horse to respect the dog one bit, its asking one to be injured.
> 
> I don't wan that. Its obvious your """training"""" methology is flawed. You don't care bout the dog being injured or killed where as I do. This was a question of training the HORSE to respect the dog as the dog is trained the same. Typical horse owner response. One kick at the right place will kill the dog. I don't agree with you not caring but respect I couldn't change it.
> 
> Thank you for the input however.


A dog can just as easily hurt a horse. I'm not saying let the horse and dog go into an all out brawl, but a lesson learned is much more likely to be remembered. 

Besides, if the answer above was a "Typical horse owner response", what does that make you? 

*You're on a horse forum, what were you expecting as a response?*


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Expecting not to advise allowing the dog to be hurt or killed to train the dog ot to bother the horse. That's already done. Short of allowing the dog possible death or life long crippling injuries I can assure you there are other training methods. I assume you go through dogs like boots and toss them with thee same remorse if you take that method of training. (That was more sarcasm, but that method is begging to Ind your dog dead at some point, even unjustified since you didn't try to train the horse against such things. A strange dog is on thing but your own?)

I want advise on how to train the horse to mutaully respect the dog to avoid your type of advise coming about.

Thank you.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

PS the dogs are stock animal friendly, including horses. Short of pack mentality over riding training they will not hassle other horse. But I will not tolorate the reversed either. Advise?


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## Randella (Dec 13, 2011)

Actually, the dog I trained as outlined above is my second dog, ever, and I'm only mid 20's. But thanks for informing me I'm a terrible animal owner, despite the fact that you know basically nothing about me. And you do know what people say about assuming things, right? 

ONCE AGAIN - a dog can just as easily hurt, or kill a horse. I've seen horses with paralysis in their faces because of dog bites, which inhibits their breathing and eating therefore making nearly every aspect of life for that horse more difficult.

I'm not telling you to let the dog die, or get seriously hurt. Like I said, most horses don't mind dogs, as long as they're not bothering them. Horses are generally very peaceful animals, that will more than likely run away when pestered. But they will sometimes choose to fight. 

There is no way to "train" a horse and dog to respect each other without exposure to each other. Exposure means you need to have the animals together. Which in turn means, there will more than likely be an incident or two from which both animals will learn. 

It doesn't seem like you have much experience with horses, so maybe you should attempt to learn more about horses before you try and go mixing the two animals. 

Also, it's spelled A-D-V-I-C-E


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## soileddove (Jul 27, 2010)

colocityboy said:


> PS the dogs are stock animal friendly, including horses. Short of pack mentality over riding training they will not hassle other horse. But I will not tolorate the reversed either. Advise?



Not true at all. All of my neighbors have dogs. Loose dogs. Loose dogs that bark and growl and approach, chase in some cases, my horses when I'm riding down the road. My horses are trained to trust me and go forward, even when their instinct might tell them to run away and get the hell out of there.. Barking, growling dog = threat.


However, as a reasonable person, I understand that my horse and I are near their turf. I understand that dogs often protect what's theirs.. Which is why I ask my horse to go forward and ignore the dog. Until they become a threat. Then, as far as most horses are concerned, its fight or flight and frankly, where an aggressive dog is concerned, I'd rather have a horse inclined to go after it than run away. 


I don't know if you've ever been on a runaway horse, but it is _dangerous._ If a horse feels its life is threatened, no amount of one-rein stops will stop it. When a dog is in the thrill of the chase, it probably won't stop either.

My dogs (that I love) leave my horses alone and my horses leave my dogs alone. Do they respect each other? No.. My horses just accept them and my dogs have learned to stay out of the way. My horses accept other dogs because I expect that of them when I'm handling them. Many other dogs haven't learned to stay out of the way.


I ride by my neighbors' places probably 4 or 5 days out of the week.. For the last _10 years_ (granted most have had new dogs since then, through no fault of my horses). Their dogs still come to the road and approach my horses. I will continue to chase them off when they come too close until their dogs are either trained (by the owners) to _respect_ horses or trained (by me and my horse) to stay out of the way.

ETA; I have never had a dog of mine killed by a horse. I've also never had a horse of mine injured by my own dog. I do have enough sense to realize that most dogs are not used to having horses around.. So some "bad" behavior is to be expected really. However, no matter how many times I chase my neighbors dogs down, their dogs are _still_ agressive and approach my horses. I think it probably will come down to the dog getting scared enough to leave them alone, which might mean they stepped on, but really, what's the alternative? I'm not about to start avoiding riding where there might be dogs.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Thus why I'm here. And that training method is still begging for a dead dog. Idont want either encounter of that sort. Still sounds like zero effort is being done on the horses side to correct the negative action on that part. The dogs are trained.

Why is there appearing to be no effort on the part regarding the horse? None mentioned and that's my greater concern. I'd nver allow my dogs to cause harm to any horse. I'd the thee thought of it short of them defending themselves, but that's a two way street.

Sry. On a tablet at work.


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## soileddove (Jul 27, 2010)

Your dogs may not confront horses, but I've yet to see a dog that doesn't come to the road, bark, and growl at my horses in the area I ride. My horses and I are doing nothing except passing through and this is how it has always been. My horses do not chase down the dogs until I give them the rein to do so. Why would I even think of attempting my horse to respect a barking, growling, and chasing predator? _My horses are trained to ignore the dog and keep going forward until I give them leave to do otherwise._ And I give that when the dog gets too close. 

What is the horse doing wrong? _Nothing._ What is the dog doing wrong? _Approaching the horse with aggressive behavior._

Most horses will choose *flight* over fight where an aggressive dog is concerned. There are exceptions, but I've personally never ridden a horse that didn't initially bunch up and prepare to run away from a dog that was barking. It takes good training to keep a horse going forward and away from an aggressive dog at a controlled pace.


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## ridesapaintedpony (Apr 14, 2009)

I ride with a can of wasp spray in my pommel bag. Sprays a long ways.


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## soileddove (Jul 27, 2010)

If your dogs do not confront horses, then with the average horse you will have _nothing_ to worry about. Horses typically won't approach an animal with aggressive behavior if they're not being threatened and they feel that fight is their only option. They generally prefer flight where predators are concerned.


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## soileddove (Jul 27, 2010)

ridesapaintedpony said:


> I ride with a can of wasp spray in my pommel bag. Sprays a long ways.


The only thing I'd worry about is getting your horse or yourself? I've considered doing this as well, but the fact that my horse might turn into it or something keeps me from doing so.. Have you ever had to use it?


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

If you leave your dogs unleashed, and they go into a horse pasture, they might get hurt. My horses are used to dogs, and they are unlikely to kill them. Their pasture is their home, and they should be able to live there unharassed. If the dog cannot leave them alone, then the dog will get kicked. 

I love my dog. She will not try to chase the horses, and it is probably because she got kicked in the past. 

Are you advocating allowing the dogs to run free all around the horse pasture and expect the horses not to bother them? That goes against their instincts. Just how do you plan to take that instinct away? And why would you want to? They have to stay safe.

I once had a neighbor that allowed her dog to run loose, and he attacked and almost killed one of my foals. If it were not for the instinct of the other horses to protect that baby from the dog, she would not be alive now.

If you are worried about your dog, put a leash on him. My dog is pretty cool with life in the country.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

colocityboy said:


> Thus why I'm here. And that training method is still begging for a dead dog. Idont want either encounter of that sort. Still sounds like zero effort is being done on the horses side to correct the negative action on that part. The dogs are trained.
> 
> Why is there appearing to be no effort on the part regarding the horse? None mentioned and that's my greater concern. I'd nver allow my dogs to cause harm to any horse. I'd the thee thought of it short of them defending themselves, but that's a two way street.
> 
> Sry. On a tablet at work.


You can't train a loose horse in a pasture to tolerate being chased by a dog. It is not possible. It is not desirable. It goes against the very instincts that are there to help horses survive.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Wasp spray is toxic and I know two dogs erected by this specific poison. One died after a very violent suizure and the other is permenantly blinded in one eye and partially in the other.

So effectively now your condoning killing the dog or causing it lifelong and permanent injurie injuries?

Do you all support the painful poisoning of dogs using wasp spray? How many here advocate this method? Can some of you please contact your local humane society and advise them your using this method on dogs?

And no not running loose but contact between the two will occur daily as I move about the place and such. I'd never allow either to roam at large, and she wouldn't either I can assure you. I'm glad they co exist now. But I would not tolerate the dogs being injured or worse unwarrented (not attacking horse). I'm familuire with horses attacking dogs unprovoked based on bad history. That's what I'm exploring.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

*If the dog goes into the horse's pasture, that is provocation.*

The horses are confined to their pasture. The dog can either be kept out of the pasture, or it might get hurt.

My horses are really pretty cool with non aggressive animals. They actually let the neighbor's chickens steal bits of their feed while they eat. They did chase the neighbor's pig, but she ran home and didn't bother them again. The barn cats walk all around their legs. My dog walks all around them. They know she is ok, so they leave her alone.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Colocityboy, it really sounds like you are worried about your dogs. Nobody would advocate you turning your dogs loose into the world if you are worried. I live on a big farm, and my dog loves her life. She hates being constantly confined. So I take a risk and let her have some degree of freedom. She is not loose all the time. She has a rich, rewarding life. If she were constantly leashed or in the house, she would be safer. If I stayed in the house and away from my horses, I would be safer. Old Blue and I like to live on the risky side of life.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

I more concerned and worried now about your average horse owner practicing their respective aim with wasp killer than the horses. That stuff would make it far more humane in my opinion to put the animal down if that happened.

Do you all advocate that individuals position regarding wasp poison?


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I don't carry wasp spray around for self defense. I seriously doubt that the others do either. It is not labeled for this use and it may not even work, besides being harmful.

If I am riding, and a dog runs out and barks, I ignore the dog and we ride on. 

If the dog nips at my horse's heels, he is likely to get kicked. If he persists in chasing, I will turn my horse around and attempt to chase the dog. 

If it is a really aggressive dog that is trying to rip me and/or my horse to pieces, then it is going to get shot. It is sad. It is terribly inhumane and neglectful for a dog owner to allow an aggressive dog to run loose. 

I really suspect that you are worried about a non-issue. Most all horse people love dogs. 

If your dogs are new to horses, then you need to either train them to leave the horses alone, or the horses will do it for you. You can train a horse not to attack a dog while you are mounted or have him in hand. You cannot train a horse not to defend himself in his own pasture.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

One of your fellow horse friends just said above they carry around wasp spray....you must have missed it. They might like dog, to a minor small degree I would agreed there.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

This is not an us and them game. 

People that have been attacked by dogs or other large predators tend to worry about their safety. 

If I had a dog that was dangerous, I would not let it run loose. Actually, I would not keep an aggressive dog.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

If there is a strange dog approaching my horse when I'm riding or handling him, then I'll try first to shoo the dog away with loud shouts and approaching him. However, if he doesn't back off from that, then IMHO, he _is_ a danger to me and my horse and I _will_ take whatever actions necessary to get him running away or stopped _immediately_. If it's a dog you don't know, it could have rabies. It could have already killed other animals or, heaven forbid, people.

Maybe you don't feel this way, and that's fine, but some stray dog that may or may not be dangerous is worth much less than the health and safety of myself, my horses, and my dogs. I'm not willing to risk the unknown just for the sake of some stray who's owner didn't care enough to make sure it was properly contained.

Yes, I would feel bad for the dog, but that wouldn't stay my hand even for a minute. If people truly cared about their animals, then they would take the time and effort necessary to ensure their safety. I take great pains to keep my dogs from getting loose because, as herding dogs, they tend to harass the neighbor's cattle. If I'm not there, I can't stop them because it's in their nature, but I work my butt off trying to keep it from happening. However, if one of them got loose and ended up dead because he was bothering someone's cattle/horses, then I would know it was my own fault and nobody else's.

You can train a horse to ignore dogs that approach them while you are handling them, but there is no amount of training that will stop the horse from defending himself, his herd, and his territory against an encroaching predator when he's turned out. I honestly don't understand why you would _want_ to train your horse to ignore strange dogs that enter their paddock. :? That makes no sense to me because horses are prey animals and they have their flight limited by fences. If you were able to teach them to just ignore any dog that entered their paddock then you would be asking for a crippled/dead horse from a dog attack.

It may only take one well placed kick/paw to kill a dog, but it only takes one well placed bite to cripple/kill a horse too.


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

I would use it if I felt it was needed. 

If I felt the animal the dog was being aggressive enough and just would not back off I would do anything I could to stop them from injurying me or my horse. 

I have a horse who would only fight if he felt he couldn't run and I have another who will fight just because he doesn't like dogs in his personal space. 

I do not allow my horse to kick/bite/etc my dogs when they are in the house yard because it is the dogs home and they are not aggressive to the horses. I simply have to say his name in the right tone and he stops. I don't stop him in his paddock because its his paddock. There are also a lot wild dogs and just pets that get loose on a regular basis that come in my horse paddock. So I don't completely wont him to stop fighting. 

I was on a trail ride alone recently and had two german sheperds come out of their yard at me being very aggressive. I can understand a dog protecting their home but one dog came at me across the highway and onto the elderly ladies property over the road just to attack me. Luckily it back off when it realised its buddy hadn't followed it and my horse was coming towards it rather them running away so with a bit of encouragment it left me alone.

But does that mean it would have been horrible of me to use a spray or a horse willing to fight? Should I have made my horse respectr this dog? What if I hadn't of been there and the dog attacked the elderly lady? 

I can understand helping a dog if it is not being aggressive but if a dog is being aggressive outside of its own home then I see no problem with using any means necessary to proctect yourself and your horse.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Cityboy-In reading this thread, along with your posts, I have a few thoughts and observations. In your first post, you made a statement about "many" aggressive horses running loose. I would doubt that any horse running free would choose to attack you UNPROVOKED. If you and your dogs try to approach-that is provocation. Also, not sure where you come off with the sexual inuendos-that is just ridiculous, and I think inappropriate. This is a forum with teens on it, after all. 

As a horse owner I would never think of training the instinct out of my horses. They need that instinct to survive. There are predatory animals in most areas, though they are rare, I would not want to take that chance. I do, however, have one who will allow dogs to hang on his tail while he runs....which is just his personality Nothing I encouraged. As a dog owner I see it as my responsibility to teach them to stay out of the stalls, pastures and away from the feet of the horses (my dogs are around 10lbs). They also have to learn not to bark and annoy the horses. In other words, they have to coexist. Typically, if your dog does nothing to the horse, the horse will do nothing. I go trail riding all the time with other peoples dogs....and as long as they do not come up close behind and startle my horse-we are fine.

ONE person mentioned wasp spray. That is not all of us. If you have an issue-take it up with that person. Feel free to PM.

Fortunately, I have never encountered a wild dog, but I am sure going to try the chase method.

Just an observation-perhaps you should read more and post less until you "get" how we talk.:? You might learn something!


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

If you could have seen what 2 loose dogs did to my daughter barrel horse, in her pasture, you would not want your dogs and horses to be buddies in the pasture. I want my horses to defend themselves when I am not there to do it for them, if they are loose in the pasture, and stray dogs come in, I WANT my horses to chase, kick or do whatever needs to be done to PROTECT my horses.
My grandsons new horse will chase with ears back any dog that gets into his area... I have no issue with this. My dogs stay out of my horses pasture,, they know not to go in the field. 
I have trained, shown and bred ALL types of dogs for many different things. They don't need physical punishment for training of any kind. I don't need to physically punish my dogs or others that I train to have them do what I want. They do what I ask of them with praise, repitition and good treatment.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Wyominggranda,

Awful sorry to hear about your barral horse. I have seen the destructive and dangerous attributes of dogs, both small and large. This is nothing to do with self defense, which is inherently a legimite right for self servival. I am and have said I want only to train MY (well girlfriends) horse to accept and respect MY dog. Unless otherwise provoked.

And your not mistaken about no need to abuse a dog physically. Discipline and abuse are totally alien to one another if your educated. There are plenty of quick fix methods involved pressure and not physical harm. Treats are practical when training for non essential things. Overall I am not an advocate of treat related training as I understand the limits of it.

Out of curiousity, are you the same WyomingGrandma that was advocating poisoning dogs with Anti Freeze in an earlier thread? I am pretty sure. Just curious.


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## soileddove (Jul 27, 2010)

colocityboy said:


> Can some of you please contact your local humane society and advise them your using this method on dogs?


I did call my local Humane Society, actually. I spoke with Keith there, please feel free to call. 763-522-4325. He said that if the dog is on public right of way, you (me, a horse owner and rider) are within your bounds to use whatever is necessary to get that dog away from you. Chase it, use wasp spray, or even _shooting to kill_. I've wondered about wasp spray, yes. I prefer to chase dogs down though.

As a horse AND dog lover, what do you propose as a _humane_ way to treat an aggressive dog that has left its property and is chasing after you?


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

franknbeans,

Again, self defense is an inalienable right. Will never dispute that. Ever.

I am referring to training my dogs and horses. My dogs are already good with horses. I am concerned with the other side. Period.

Its just sad I stumbled onto the strong hate most horse people here seem view toward dogs, with a few exceptions. 

I wish I could clarified that better earlier. 

Thank you for the reply


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I think that you have misinterpreted everybody's feelings.

I like dogs. 

I don't see why you need to worry about your horse attacking your dog. The horse will be in his pasture. He can't get at the dog unless the dog goes where he doesn't belong. The horse will get used to the dog anyway and leave him alone.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

If the horse is having trouble concentrating on it's handler because a dog just happens to be around but isn't bothering it at all (laying in the corner or walking around 20+ feet away), then I strongly suspect there are more, deeper ingrained training issues at work with that horse.

See, the thing is, if the horse is well trained enough to still listen and respect the handler when something scary happens to be around, whether it's a meandering dog or a trash bag blowing across the yard, then it will only take one instance of "hey, listen to _me_" to completely bring them back to the handler. However, if the horse can't listen to the handler because they're freaked out over a dog that isn't even bothering them, then they are lacking the training to not freak out over a trash bag, or a bike, or a basketball, or a vehicle, or a tumbleweed.

So you see, if your dog is truly not purposefully bothering the horse (and walking around inside the horse's space bubble _is_ bothering it), then the horse is lacking training, period. It has nothing to do with dogs.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

colocityboy said:


> franknbeans,
> 
> Again, self defense is an inalienable right. Will never dispute that. Ever.
> 
> ...


Thing is-if you teach a horse to NEVER attack or defend itself against dogs, you are inhibiting the self defense, right?

What SMROBS said is 100% true. Only thing I would add is that perhaps the horse has had a bad experience with dogs previously. That would be the only time I would think there would be an issue. As long as you kee your dog away from the horse-there should be no issue. They should peacefully coexist. Now-if all of a sudden your dog comes running up behind the horse-you may have an issue. Depends on the horse.

I think you are totally misinterpreting this thread. I see no folks here with the kind of "deep hatred" you seem to interpret. We are all animal lovers, after all. However, none of us will tolerate a dog being aggressive toward our horses. It is dangerous for all involved. Horses are really pretty vulnerable, being that their entire weight is supported by 4 relatively skinny legs.

And, by the way-I re read some of your posts. I have always heard the leash laws referred to as just that-you refer to them as OFF leash laws. Are you talking about the ability to have dogs running free everywhere? As some of us have stated, there are LEASH laws (meaning your dog has to be leashed when in a public place) in most jurisdictions. NOT off leash laws, at least anywhere I am aware of in America.....not sure where you are.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

colocityboy said:


> Wyominggranda,
> 
> Awful sorry to hear about your barral horse. I have seen the destructive and dangerous attributes of dogs, both small and large. This is nothing to do with self defense, which is inherently a legimite right for self servival. I am and have said I want only to train MY (well girlfriends) horse to accept and respect MY dog. Unless otherwise provoked.
> 
> ...


 Umm, no, There is another person using wyoming in their name. I have worked for vets for over 40+years, I KNOW and have SEEN what antifreeze poisoning does to dogs. So, you are not "pretty sure" at all, your are mistaken. I advocate keeping dogs in your own yard, on a leash. If you need something, I say use amonia in a squirt gun/bottle for loose dogs.


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

The pony that I mentioned in my first post that loves chasing dogs has never actually hurt a dog, except for kicking one once that suprised us and came right at her heels aggressively.

She will chase dogs that chase her. The only time I can think of that she chased a dog that was not bothering her it wasn't even a dog, it was a fox and it was chasing our chickens! She acted as little guardian pony.

However, I often take my dog, who is herding bred and has herding and prey drive, out with me to do chores and we'll go into the pastures with the horses.

She does not bother the horses, she's not afraid of them but knows I don't allow it. If the pony so much as looks at her funny I call the dog to me and scold the pony. The pony understands the scolding and what it's about, she's quite bright and responsive so she usually listens. I call the dog to me first because I do not want the dog to think it is her place to correct the horse when I scold her. She will correct some of the other animals for inapproriate behavior when they need it, which is good, but I just want her and the other horses to leave each other alone. And they do. 

I've also trailridden her with dogs. She knows the difference between our dog and a strange dog acting aggressively and will act accordingly.

Know your dog and know your horse. You'll usually be able to tell when you can start letting them be together more without a problem or trailriding with the dog, but when and how varies a great deal depending on the individual animals and the situation.


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## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

I am not sure what is going on with Colocityboy. He seems intent on arguing with everything said. When given the advice he asks for, he already knows better.

I do not ever allow my horses to chase/harass a dog while under saddle. The dog my mare kicked was biting at her heels, and she double barreled him. I felt horrible that she injured the dog - because I don't really blame the dog - I blame the owner for not keeping the dog up. 

Around here, a loose dog will usually wind up chasing livestock (horses, cattle, goats, chickens, whatever) - whether out of boredom or hunger is not relevant. A chaser will normally have to be destroyed, because once they start, they don't normally stop. Livestock owners have a right to protect their property, up to and including killing the dog. 

In addition - my horses have killed a dog before. I'm not happy about it, and felt bad for the dog. Again, I blame the dog's owner. The dog was just doing what came naturally - whether it was desireable behavior or not. However, the dog had a history of serious attacks on horses and other livestock, and his owner flat refused to keep the dog up. I wasn't present when the dog was killed, so I don't know exactly what happened. 

Keep in mind, my horses are NOT agressive towards dogs. I have dogs. I have LOTS of dogs. The are generally kept in our fenced back yard and/or in the house. However, sometimes we let them run (supervised) out of the yard for exercise. They go out in the lot where the horses are, and have a blast. If they harass the horses, the horses will defend themselves, but not aggressively. Posturing and half-hearted kicks are all that are needed to remind my dogs to behave themselves. We can walk with the dogs in the pasture, and the horses are totally unconcerned as long as the dogs keep their distance.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Exactly, I am not a dog hater either. I have actually been breeding/raising/training border collies for over 20 years. My dogs generally don't bother my horses and my horses generally don't bother my dogs. When it's time to go to work and the horse is saddled and ridden, the dogs stay in a pack around me...but not too close.


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## Randella (Dec 13, 2011)

colocityboy, none of us would ever wish bad things on any animal, as I'm sure we're all animal lovers here. Even if there were some more negative comments, you CANNOT blame all of us for them. The majority of us who have been participating in the conversation with you have not said anything in bad taste. 

However, the fact that you are constantly arguing, and trying to look down at the whole group of us is seriously impeding your efforts. You look for advice, and ask for help, yet it looks like you're trying to shove open a door that says pull. You're arguing with a bunch of horse crazy women (for the most part, not trying to be sexist!), so the odds are stacked against you. 

Basically, if you don't want your dog in ANY danger WHATSOEVER, I suggest a very well fenced in area for it. Because when you mix horses and off leash dogs together, there is always going to be the threat of injury to either the horse or the dog, period. 

There is NO way to train the natural instincts out of a horse that is turned out in a field. That's why if you want to have your dog off leash around horses, the DOG must have enough training, or common sense to stay a safe distance from all prospective dangers. You say that's not fair, because there's no effort on the horse's side? TOUGH. Pony up, because life isn't fair. 

Don't like it? Don't take your dog out to the barn.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^"Like" times 1000 :clap:.


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## Silent one (Aug 22, 2011)

Well, I just have to say in response to a certain poster, I love dogs. All of them. My dogs, the neighbors, our friends, etc. To a point. Did I love the pit bull that charged and bit my horse several times before we DID tromple him? No, it was a FIGHT for mine and my horse's protection and I definitely HATED that dog. If I had had wasp spray I would have gladly sprayed it down his throat at the time.

That said, in general my horses will never flick an ear at a dog. Even if it comes out and barks at us. I do and will however, teach them to defend themselves and fight back when one attacks us. I don't feel like running away from an attack is an option, just encourages the attack. And no, I won't be carrying "wasp spray" in the future. What I'm going to carry from now on will be much more deadly. 

I would take absolutely NO pleasure in harming a dog. In fact, if I have to kill one I would probably have nightmares. But I would and will do it to protect my horse.

I think someone just likes to argue and try to play superior.


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## Paintlover1965 (May 22, 2009)

Most importantly I believe dogs are a reflection of their owner. Where I ride I have encountered people who believe that because they live in the country they don't need to leash or supervise their dog. I have tried to talk with them of the dangers that might incur to the dog or to someone encountering their dog if left unattended. Some of the said individuals have had to have police notification to better get the point across as their dogs posed a real risk to others. This is a sad state of affairs. I have a dog that I care about deeply and when she is off leash on my property she is always supervised as she is my responsibility. It is possible for some dogs and horses to coexist in an amicable relationship and the large dog at our barn can even share a bowl with his equine counterpart. While the same dog cannot do this with every horse as their inherent temperaments aren't the same and that horse will not let the dog get into their space. The barn dog has learned where his boundaries are and where they are not. You need to train your dog accordingly to keep them safe.


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## soileddove (Jul 27, 2010)

I know you must be gone and moved on from this game you were playing.. But I just have to say that I can think of no _safe_ way to attempt to teach a horse to respect a dog (_only to accept it as part of its life so long as a handler is around_).. 

A horse should not be _trained _to accept a dog under hoof.. Even if the horse never displays any aggressive behavior towards the dog, it could still be dangerous. If the horse and dog just naturally accept each other like in Paintlover's post, that's one thing, but trying to make it happen wouldn't be smart. 

The only thing you can do is expect obedience from the horse and dog so long as there is a handler around. If the horse is chargey and still going after the dog, either you do not know how to properly handle a horse or if you do, then there are some holes in that horses training. If the dog is running around the horses feet, even if its only playful, he is still doing something wrong.

I can think of only two ways to dissuade a dog from doing that. Either continuously calling it off or allowing it to find out what happens.

It's widely accepted that horses learn from the _release of pressure._ That is- if I want my horse to respect me and my space, I will put as much pressure as is necessary to get that horse away from me and not be within my space unless the horse has permission and is being respectful. 

If my horses ever made an untoward move at my dogs when the dogs were not under their feet or being aggressive and I was there, you can be sure I would put pressure on the horse until he moved away. It is a two-way street, where I'm the boss and mediator.

If I'm not there to supervise, then my dogs and horses are not together. Simple. My dogs have never even tried to go into my horses' pen without me, that I know of. If they did, and my horses chased them down, I wouldn't have a problem with that because my dogs have been taught that they're not to go out there unless I'm there and I call them in with me. Usually they sit at the gate and wait for me.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Hello Again,

No, again, not gone. I took a break as I could see I was going to end up winding myself up. Effectively the only real advise any of you have really given is: 

1: The dog will eventually learn respect for the horse (Again, my animals are heavily trained or they would not be in route to certification). Check.

2: The dog needs a good 'kick' training to learn to respect the horse. (again, the respects there. The dogs have both been in hospital settings and have a number of times come into direct face to face contact with therapy ponies in boy closed, boxed in locations like rooms and elevators and general hallways with zero issue. they also visit regular with friends who own horses and cattle, the only issue has been poultry so far....I fear it is because of their diet. they are raw meat and must smell that. As soon as horse meat becomes available again I may try it with them but like venison I assume they would not like the leaner meats)

So far no one has mad a meaningful advise and specific training tactics used to discipline a horse when necessary aside from one (and thank you by the way) involving 'pressure'. I am not sure what they mean by pressure. Is that pressure on the nose or other sensitive area. Or pressure as in using your body to force the animal in an opposing direction.

So far I see many here laying mostly blame and responsibility on the dog side alone. If the dog is properly trained (again, thats done mostly) thats not an issue. 

again, let me clearly lay out my question to begin with:

HOW DO YOU TRAIN A HORSE TO WORK ACCEPTABLY WITH YOUR DOG. UNLESS YOUR INTENSELY DUMB ANIMALS (AND THEY ARE NOT!) THEY CAN BE TRAINED. I AM ASKING HOW SPECIFICALLY YOU WOULD TRAIN A HORSE TO DO THAT. DOGS HAVE MANY WAYS OF BEING TRAINED, I AM ASSUMING HORSES ARE LIKEWISE. 

PS: WyomingGrandma, yes it was you who suggested 'SSS'ing dogs or using anti freeze in another post. I just looked it up. It was concerning a neighbors aggressive dogs and being aware of your history I understand why you'd peach such advise. 

Also, I am not 'talking down' to anyone here. I simply refuse to believe trampling a dog to death is a correct way of correcting it from being aggressive. I do like the idea of chasing, as a dog will naturally back off from a fight where there's a risk of actual bodily harm. Those that do not are few and far between. But several here have stated with an 'lol' following it that 'the dog just wasn't quick enough' and got trampled, implying the dog had proceeded to turn and run, flight in the 'flight or fight' saying, therefore not consituting the right to trample the animal. I still believe that is true.

I know you all say 'you like dogs' and 'love your horses' and therein lies the big difference. 

Let me ask a question as Im actually now a bit curious. If a horse were attempting to kill your own dog unprovoked, would you defend them? To what extent? 

I ask because in the course of this conversation I recall a friend whoes dog, a former fighting dog he rescued, was attacked while tethered at his place by the neighbors large Jack. She managed to kill the donkey, but after talking to him about it he said he'd of shot the animal had he been home when it happened. Unfortunately the dog carried life long injuries as a result, sad yes, but what can you do? At least the jack's owner actually helped him pay the medical costs for the injuries.

Anyway. I dont want to argue with you folks. I am genuinely asking a legitimate series of questions so please take your time and read through what the questions were. 

I will also check into the wasp poison a bit later when I have more free time with some of the local rescues we have around here. Frankly with other options that are non lethal I refuse to think a rational person with any sense of values would use such a thing short of an all out attack. And wasp spray is a highly concentrated spray with a very long distance ability. So its nothing with close proximity.

Frankly as I've said before, I've killed a few donkey's because they were a threat to my animal (dog) and a friend's livestock. I'd do so again, but hate the idea of it. I'd also put down a dog that was in the process of attacking my own. I'm not begrudging defense I am simply stating there are other methods other than life long injuries or death. Horses can be dangerous and aggressive toward both humans and other animals alike, I want to know how one check's that and what training methods were used. thats all I wanted to ask to begin with.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I don't train my horses to leave dogs alone. I fence them in. They cannot hurt your dog because they can't get out; that is unless you are irresponsible with your dog.

As far as how to get the horse to leave the dogs alone when we are riding, a horse that is well trained will obey me and it is a non-issue.

The chasing dogs, spraying dogs, etc. was in reference to when we are out riding and we get harassed by dogs that their owners neglect to keep confined. People were assuming that you were wanting to know how to keep yourself and/or your horse from getting injured.

If a pit bull or other aggressive dog comes into my pasture and attacks my horse, there is little chance that my horse will kill him. I will. Immediately, and without remorse. That goes for if it attacks my cats, chickens, children, and of course my dear old dog, Blue, that would never hurt a chicken, cat, dog, horse, or child.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

colocityboy:Yep, I talk all the time about shooting dogs.......... If they are running loose and harassing my horses, they will die. 
I would like the see the thread where I advocated using antifreeze to kill dogs please.


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

Chickens are not raw meat. They are living creatures and smell like such. They are small, noisy, quick moving, nervous creatures and everything about them tends to draw out the prey drive in dogs. Raw fed or otherwise, no need to change your dogs diet.

The absolute first thing in getting a horse to respect the dog actually has nothing to do with the dog. The horse must respect you.

The dog must respect you. 

My horses and dogs leave each other alone, but if they are tempted to do anything it is not respect for each other that stops them. It is respect for me.

The reason so much emphasis is put on training the dog is NOT because horses can't be trained at all. It's because most horses will _naturally _leave a dog that is not bothering them alone! While most dogs have to be taught bothering horses, even if they run, is a big no no. 

Also, when you have both together, most of the time you have control of the horse through a leadrope or reins... and the dog is the one running loose. When you are riding hopefully you are in control of the horse... but you can't ride with the dog on a leash!

And of course as they get used to each other the horse will learn that particular dog isn't dangerous so they will get better, it helps to allow them to get used to eachother through a secure fence if the horse is unfamiliar with dogs. Most have some experience with them being around the barn or such though, I would ask their former owner.

The only time my dog and horse are together and the horses are loose is in the pasture. My dog stays right with me. It's never happened, but if my horse were to actually go after my dog unprovoked, my dog has enough training to trust my judgement over her own, and I would direct her behind me. 

I know my horse or pony wouldn't get anywhere near her with me there. They have too much respect for me.

Donkeys are different than horses. They are often used as guard animals for sheep, because they will chase and kill any predators. They don't question the animal first to see if it might be intent on harm.

Most horses, if put in a pasture full of sheep, wouldn't do any good as guardians because they would likely leave the sheep to fend for themselves. 


I cannot imagine what other circumstance my dog could possible be in where I would have to defend her. I do not let her out of my sight in strange places, and she does not go into the horses pastures without me.

But sure, I'd shoot a horse if it was somehow necessary (I cant think of a scenario) to protect my dog.


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

My dog was also not trained to leave horses alone by being kicked. She has a "bring it on" attitude and that would have been quite the battle. She's been being slowly trained to listen to me since day one. I did not let her off leash with the horses till I was absolutely sure about her recall and obedience.


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## Randella (Dec 13, 2011)

We are talking about three different situations.

1. When a horse is loose in a field, and a dog ends up IN with the horse and is pestering them, the horse CANNOT be trained to leave the dog alone. 

2. When on a trail ride, and a dog is harassing both the riders and horses, it becomes a danger for everyone, particularly if the dog is not trained correctly, and will not back off. Many users have mentioned riding around as far as possible, and if the dog advances on the horse, most riders will turn and chase the dog. 

3. However, when in a more controlled environment, such as in the barn with both the horse and the dog present, you can discipline the horse much like you would a dog. Reward the good behaviour, lots of pats, and a treat every so often. However if there is negative behaviour, a sharp tone, and perhaps a light swat with a crop would work just fine. You can also use pressure, as stated previously, but the horse has to be familiar with the usage of pressure or it won't work and you'll end up very frustrated (ie. don't use it on young horses, horses with limited handling, etc).

But like Celeste said, if a dog gets into a field with my horse, and is being aggressive, that gives both my horse, and myself the right to do anything possible to subdue or get rid of the dog. The horse is fenced in, and thus is cornered. The dog has the option of being in or out, and the most certainly should never be in.

Lastly, yes horses can be aggressive toward humans and dogs alike. However, if the horse is too dangerous for a human to comfortably handle, and control, then there shouldn't be a dog anywhere near that horse to begin with. Horses are not aggressive for the sake of being aggressive. There is reasoning behind the aggression, and it should be dealt with by a professional horse trainer. 

The best way to see how your horse is with a dog, is to let them interact. Have the dog leashed, but close enough for the horse to see, hear, and interact with it. If the horse becomes aggressive, remove the dog, discipline the horse, and try again. The easiest way to teach your horse that a dog isn't going to hurt it, is to make it's experiences with dogs a positive one, and vice versa. 

Bottom line? I LOVE my horse, and I LOVE my dog. If either were hurt (my horse by a dog, or my dog by a horse), I would do everything I could to protect either of them, and if that includes killing the attacker, so be it.


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## Silent one (Aug 22, 2011)

Celeste said:


> If a pit bull or other aggressive dog comes into my pasture and attacks my horse, there is little chance that my horse will kill him. I will. Immediately, and without remorse.


How many times can I "like", LOL!


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

colocityboy said:


> I ask because in the course of this conversation I recall a friend whoes dog, a former fighting dog he rescued, was attacked *while tethered at his place* by the neighbors large Jack. She managed to kill the donkey, but after talking to him about it he said he'd of shot the animal had he been home when it happened. Unfortunately the dog carried life long injuries as a result, sad yes, but what can you do? At least the jack's owner actually helped him pay the medical costs for the injuries.


Anyone that would tether a dog and leave it unattended is asking for trouble. I don't know why the donkey was loose. Surely they weren't stupid enough to tether the poor dog in the pasture? He could have saved a lot of money on vet bills if he had not neglected the dog to start with.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

srh1 said:


> Chickens are not raw meat. They are living creatures and smell like such. They are small, noisy, quick moving, nervous creatures and everything about them tends to draw out the prey drive in dogs. Raw fed or otherwise, no need to change your dogs diet.
> 
> The absolute first thing in getting a horse to respect the dog actually has nothing to do with the dog. The horse must respect you.
> 
> ...



SNH1

Thank you for the reply, this is by far the most direct and open response to my question. I thought that fence was a good idea, and have used this previously to test their responses to what they would naturely perceive as either competitive predators (cats) and prey animals (rabbits, ferrets, geese, chickens). Of all those the only one I could not out train was their desire to explore the chickens. I think your statement is spot on and I wrote about that as well. Their constant movement, sounds, and general size simply bring out the prey drive in any predator. Funny, the geese were the easiest to teach tolerance toward. Aside from the chickens, the cat/rabbit were the hardest. But now I own two cats, and have several strays living in the alley way I care for, feed, catch, and spay/neuter. Cats are sadly overpopulated here.

I like your fence idea. Alot. As I said I've used it before and its worked wonderful while providing both exposure (to judge reaction) and safety. I do believe I'll follow your advise. I have since I started this conversation (which sadly veered substantially off from the threads purpose) done some research and made some contact with a few trainers who I know have horses. I sent them some of the replies here and so far only one has responded back, and she sort of agreed with some of the comments. I hope to meet her Sunday to explore the subject a bit more. She owns 7 dogs, and has had one killed by a neighbors horse who had gotten into her pasture with her two mares. Apparently the mare's heat cycle brought it on. 

I'm glad you care enough about your dog to defend it. I'd hate to idea, but I've done and would continue to do so in the future. Especially the level of time and dedication for working dogs, they occupy a huge sum of time (which legally equates to cash) to fully train and certify. That aside, there is also the very deep bond of love that is only deeper with your woman and family (and a few close friends).

Thank you for the reply, it was very pleasent and appreciated.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Celeste said:


> Anyone that would tether a dog and leave it unattended is asking for trouble. I don't know why the donkey was loose. Surely they weren't stupid enough to tether the poor dog in the pasture? He could have saved a lot of money on vet bills if he had not neglected the dog to start with.


Tethering for short durations is perfectly fine for a dog. Its extended exposure to limited contacted and limited free movement that can cause issues. The dog was tethered in the morning on a 30 something foot tether and allowed to move about. I am not sure why he never built a dog run, but he was renting the place and I assume did not wish to dedicate money on a run. 

She was happy, and she got to be out early in the day and out for a hike in the evening time after work. Never was an issue before, but having no fencing why would he keep her trapped up in the house? Makes little sense. Let her run around the line between the two tree's instead.

As for the donkey? NO clue. I hate seeing anyone's animal free to roam at large and with no supervision. I do remember the neighbor having some stock critters. 

I am glad his dog killed it, but it was not necessary in my opinion. I was actually surprised a farmer had the decency to actually compensate financially. I guess I'm a city boy at heart, most times I've had my animals or property damaged I have never had anyone willingly offer to compensate. Different culture.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Randella said:


> We are talking about three different situations.
> 
> 1. When a horse is loose in a field, and a dog ends up IN with the horse and is pestering them, the horse CANNOT be trained to leave the dog alone.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the information, that is good stuff to read. I was reviewing the idea of a fence first, I think that would work well as well, do you agree? Maybe your idea second, fence first just to be sure they recognize one another. I know my mixed breed will cowar because she's been attacked by a donkey once, fortunately me and the trusty lead solution were there at the time, but the episode effectively scared her with fear since. She even curls up a bit at the sight of police on horseback.

Kudos to you for loving your animals equally. I just dont want to ever had something of that sort happen. I do frankly feel I am over reacting, but I want to explore alternatives to avoid and shrink the likilyhood of it ever occuring. That's all one can do, set up an insurance policy just in case.

Thanks again. I liked your first to posts, those two had absolutely nothing to do with my questions and I appreciate you realizing that. I love my dogs, they will not be allowed to wonder...But mistakes happen. Any fencing or locks can fail. I have come across horses wondering the road before as proof of that. Not bad owners, just bad timing.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

colocityboy said:


> Tethering for short durations is perfectly fine for a dog.


No, it is not. The dog would not have been attacked if it had not been tethered. Most animal activists (dog welfare activists) abhor tethering. You gave a story that gives their opinion credence.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Celeste said:


> No, it is not. The dog would not have been attacked if it had not been tethered. Most animal activists (dog welfare activists) abhor tethering. You gave a story that gives their opinion credence.


No, I gave a story that gives credence to keeping your animal contained. The dog was contained. It was in its own property, behind its own house, with its owners knowledge. Tethering is a practical solution unless you believe the animal should always be housebound. I don't personally. 

Short of a fence, that is the best option for a dog. Look at the laws that most activists try to pass, they are absurd. The ones with common sense pass, such as laws prohibiting (for **** good reason) tethering all day. An animal shouldnt be tethered for more than a couple hours, and never in an area with no shade or lack of available water. He tethered during the morning hours. The guys a responsible dog owner. The donkey owner was not responsible. 

We're not going to agree there. In the city if you dont have fencing than you need to tether the animal for short durations, somewhere more isolated to avoid contact with feral animals and dangerous humans.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

As far as teaching dogs not to injure other animals, this really needs to be done through socialization when they are puppies. My dog doesn't bother chickens because a rooster taught her that roosters chase dogs when she was a puppy. It is a bit embarrassing to have an 80 pound hound that is afraid of chickens. Socialization with any species that you want a dog to get along with should be done early, preferably by 12 weeks of age. It is extremely important to expose puppies to other dogs, to cats, chickens, and humans of every age, size, color, gender, etc. that you can. The number one cause of death in dogs is euthanasia because of behavioral problems that stem from poor early socialization. 

Stuff like chicken killing and livestock chasing.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Celeste said:


> No, it is not. The dog would not have been attacked if it had not been tethered. Most animal activists (dog welfare activists) abhor tethering. You gave a story that gives their opinion credence.


and to be clearer: The dog wouldnt of been attacked by that donkey if it'd been contained. Again, I fully believe in control of any animal.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

OK, Colocityboy, I'm going to assume you are not a troll though you sound like one at times. Here's my shot at answering your question:

-Horse are not dogs, you are talking prey animal vs. hunter. Hunters will think things through then react. Prey animals react then think things through. That means a dog will think "I know my person wont be happy if I attack" so wont. Horses will attack then think "oops, I'm in trouble now".


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Darrin said:


> OK, Colocityboy, I'm going to assume you are not a troll though you sound like one at times. Here's my shot at answering your question:
> 
> -Horse are not dogs, you are talking prey animal vs. hunter. Hunters will think things through then react. Prey animals react then think things through. That means a dog will think "I know my person wont be happy if I attack" so wont. Horses will attack then think "oops, I'm in trouble now".


I suppose I've never had anyone say it that way. I am not sure I'd necessarily agree. And no Im not a troll. This genuinely did start out as an honest exploration for answers. I've normally had decent enough luck with Forums.

Dogs are naturally a bit brighter than horses about consequences and collective structure because we discipline them when needed, either verbally or through a physical discipline (not abuse, mostly pressure or postering, winning is always mental, just like surrendering). Plus they are far more attuned to your emotional state and general body posture than any other animal presently studied. Facts are facts. 

I hope no one here wastes their money going to see 'Total Recall' the newer variation. Its crap. Not only was it a waste of time, it wasted about 15 dollars on snacks. I ended up gathering up the dog and leaving after a rather abrash parent thought her 'innocent' children could yank on her fur and disturb her by throwing food at her. Very annoying. Thankfully shes trained to tolerate the explorative aspects of children, Least she ever dare raise a fuss at my niece.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Bah, accidently posted before finishing and edit time ran out. Here's the full text of what I was posting.

OK, Colocityboy, I'm going to assume you are not a troll though you sound like one at times. Here's my shot at answering your question:

-Horse are not dogs, you are talking prey animal vs. hunter. Hunters will think things through then react. Prey animals react then think things through. That means a dog will think "I know my person wont be happy if I attack" so wont. Horses will attack then think "oops, I'm in trouble now".

-With above. Horses quickly forget what they did. You have less than 5 seconds to punish a horse for a bad deed. Go past that time and you are punishing them for some reason and they don't know why. It requires fast reaction time and they need to be within reach.

-You can and should train horses with voice commands so you can control them at a distance to some extand, not all do. When you correct them physically back it up with voice. As an example, I always say "Hey!" when punishing my horse. Best to use one syllable word you can get out in a hurry. This way when my horse misbehaves when out of reach a quick "HEY!" might bring them up short. I do this when my gelding thinks about biting another horse or kick out at a dog.

-Most horses wont attack dogs unless they've been harrased or injured by one in the past. So if you see a horse go after a dog they likely have a reason to. As above with my gelding, he never attacked a dog until a relatives dog harrased him one day. From that day he had a "bring it on!" attitude about dogs. One gets within reach and he will kick or bite. Ever seen a 150 pound dog picked up by the loose skin on her back? Happened so fast there was no time to react and the dog was plain lucky he didn't get spine in the bite. Yeah, he was sorry afterwards but he would do it again and be sorry afterwards.

-Horses, donkeys and mules all think differently. Can't judge how one will behave by how another does.

-Horses know when they are physically under control and when they are not. That means when running around out in the pasture you may or may not be able to get them to do or stop doing something. Depends on the horses own attitude, training and sex. Mares are more likely to trample a dog to death then a gelding is.

Now here's my take on dogs vs. livestock. 

-If a dog attacks my horse and draws blood, it's a dead dog. If a dog threatens my horse with me riding, I'll try and drive it off without harm to any of us. I do prefer my horses to turn on a dog rather than take a bite that can end up being a life ending injury. Yeah, that means the dog suffers due to it's owners negligence but I prefer that to my horse suffering due to the dog owners negligence.

-If my dog attacks livestock, I'll put it down myself if it happens to be still alive. Personally I would expect it to be dead already. I would then try to compensate for damages just like you saw with that one donkey attacking your friends dog. It's a country thing and I was raised on a farm. With that, if I see a dog attacking a neighbors animal I'll drop it then and there for them. Since city folk like to move to the country and let their dogs run free and don't believe their Fido would ever harm a flee. The 3 S's come into play to prevent being sued. Shoot, shovel and shut up.

-Once a dog gets a taste of blood it usually wont stop. The dog will never again be able to be trusted with other animals. Personally I prefer putting it down than dropping a problem dog on someone else and hoping it doesn't ever happen again.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Darrin said:


> Bah, accidently posted before finishing and edit time ran out. Here's the full text of what I was posting.
> 
> OK, Colocityboy, I'm going to assume you are not a troll though you sound like one at times. Here's my shot at answering your question:
> 
> ...


Darrin,

Sounds like you like to have moving targets. I know all about the 'SSS' policy, it was used without ethics and no morality back in California. When farmers and ranchers make such a choice as to use such cruel and unnecessary tactics on dogs simply loose from a yard, they were blessed with a visit at night by those dogs owners. A .22, a baby bottle, some feed and a tin feed can often drew the curious critters to you. 

Sad, but in some cases justified. I fully support defense. But some folks just enjoy the target practice. If you enjoy it, thats your thing. IF someone decides to retaliate, I know they'd certainly have my blessings if that were the facts of the matter. I know if someone shot my dogs without a serious reason, and I became aware, there would be damages in return. Nothing hurts like seeing those around you harmed. 

Again, if you had a horse and it attacked my dog unprovoked, I'd shot it. I'm sorry. If your horse did that it'd be dead. I promise to do it quickly if it ever came to that, but I doubt it would. 

Thank you for the reply.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Darrin, 

just to clarify,

Again, if the dog is in the process of attacking or has attacked and your sure its that dog, I can understand. Likewise, I'd consider a horse or any other animal dangerous if it attacks and kills as well. Prey or predator, once they get the belief they can they will continue. Just because its a prey animal does not make it less dangerous in my view. 

I suppose we'll never agree there.


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## soileddove (Jul 27, 2010)

This is a novel, but read it, colocityboy.

Pressure, in my case.. Is using my body language and whatever tools I may have handy. If you watch horses in a pasture and learn about how they communicate, the horse that moves their feet last, loses. However, horses don't just haul off and beat the snot out of the horse that they want to get out of the way.

The more dominant horse will first pin its ears back, then it will cock its back leg, then it might snake its head out and maybe bite the other horse. Then it might turn its rear end in, as if preparing to kick. Its _incremental_. Then it stops and _releases_ the pressure as soon as the other horse moves. 

If I want my horse to move away from me (and my dog, if that's the case), I will mimic that. I'll make my posture more aggressive, shoo them off with my hands, and if it escalates to smacking them, then I do so, with whatever I have- hands, crop, leadrope, etc and as hard as necessary.. As someone pointed out, you wouldn't do this with a horse that is not familiar with this.

What Darrin said about the way horses think is correct. Horses are _reactive_ animals. There are exceptions and there is a lot of training that goes into them to inhibit this, but you cannot deny nature.

A horse that is respectful of it handler, should leave the dogs alone if the handler is present and requires it of the horse. If my dogs were to go into the horse pasture _when I am not there_, and my horses chased them, my horses are doing the right thing. If my dogs _join me_ in the pasture with my permission and my horses chased them even though the dogs were _NOT being aggressive or getting under their feet_, then that is a sign of disrespect towards me that is not to be tolerated. 

I don't tolerate aggressive behavior from my horses unless the situation requires it, like the instance where an aggressive dog approaches me and my horse. Then I will ask for it and encourage it. I've harped on it a few times here already, but horses will naturally choose flight if they feel it is an option. Being on a runaway horse is very, very dangerous. 

When I called my local humane society, Keith, was in complete agreement with using whatever means necessary to discourage the dogs if they left their property and were becoming aggressive.

Anyway, I also agree that comparing horses and donkeys is not very accurate. Donkeys are very protective animals. They're much less reactive than horses and prefer to stand and fight a lot of times. Donkeys don't take any crap. I wouldn't compare wolves and dogs and expect it to stand.

If a horse just showed up in my yard and started attacking my dogs unprovoked, it would be a dead horse. However, that has never happened in all of my 22 years of rural living. The reverse, stray dogs finding their way into my horses pasture and being aggressive, or dogs chasing me and my horses while I'm riding, happens _often_. 

Aggressive horses and aggressive dogs are both dangerous.. Which one is more common though? And which is more widely tolerated? Both of my two dogs were strays.. Strays that just showed up in really, really rough shape. Not everyone just kills stray dogs. I love my two mutts even though someone else didn't care enough about them to keep them properly contained or cared for. Had they been aggressive though, it might not have worked out, I don't feel bad saying that and I would not have blamed them.

There's no way to really just teach a dog or horse to be mutually respectful of each other. _They must both be respectful of the handler, and that should be sufficient._ If they form a bond or something outside of that, its a bonus, but don't expect it.


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## soileddove (Jul 27, 2010)

I was trying to find to post where you talked about how you introduced your dog to cats.. Unfortunately I just can't find it scanning through.. So I apologize that you've already talked about it, but please, how did you introduce them?


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

colocityboy said:


> Darrin,
> 
> Sounds like you like to have moving targets. I know all about the 'SSS' policy, it was used without ethics and no morality back in California. When farmers and ranchers make such a choice as to use such cruel and unnecessary tactics on dogs simply loose from a yard, they were blessed with a visit at night by those dogs owners. A .22, a baby bottle, some feed and a tin feed can often drew the curious critters to you.
> 
> ...


First of all it's pretty **** rare for prey animals to go about randomly attacking other animals and even more rare for them to kill. It's not rare for hunters to go about randomly attacking other animals and it certainly isn't rare to see them kill. IE, you will see more dogs killed for this action than horses by a wide margin. And yes, a 1000 pound aggressive horse or cow is very dangerous. I grew up in a family where all problem animals were either put down or taken to a meat auction. I have no issues with it myself.

Second, a rancher/farmer is not going to wait and see if a stray dog will harm his livestock or not. Ever seen what a dog can do to a flock of sheep? That dog can kill dozens of sheep without laying a single tooth on one. They have fun chasing the sheep around and the sheep have a heart attack. They can also take down a 1000 pound horse/cow that's worth a lot of money or a lot of smaller animals like chickens. Otherwise, strays will not be tolerated just because of their potential damage.

It's not just stray dogs either though ranchers/farmers tend not to shoot stray livestock. Stray cattle can do enormous economic damage to crops. Trust me when I say there's been a lot of court battles between people for crop damage and not maintaining fences. The difference is it's a heck of a lot easier to figure out who a bunch of stray cattle belong to then a stray dog. That dog might of traveled 20 miles before deciding to have some fun killing sheep.

The 3 S's were developed because city people don't understand the damage a dog can do, refuse to believe Fluffy would harm a thing, refuse to keep their dog locked up, refuse to pay up for damages because it can't be proved it was their Fluffy, refuse to pay up if it can be proved it's their dog because sheep can't be worth more than $5 and then sue when their dog turns up dead surrounded by dead sheep. If they take the owner to court they'll end up paying more in lawyer fees than they lost. It's purely an economic decision for them, bullets are cheap when compared to losing just a single sheep/calf/chicken/etc. You might think it's "sick and disgusting" but then you haven't been hit in the wallet over and over due to people not locking up their dogs.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I just want to say that I agree with Darrin. 

If I recall, the whole worry was that you are moving in with your girlfriend and are worried that her horses are going to kill your dogs. Something like that. 

Several things I can tell you about animal behavior.

*Horse behavior: *Horses are not plotting to hurt your dogs. They just want to eat, take it easy, and hang out with their friends. If they are left alone, chances are they will be good.

*Dog behavior:* Dogs are large predators that will consider any animal that they are not socialized to as potential prey. Large dogs can be extremely dangerous when taken out of their city environment and dumped into a country lifestyle. Dogs that were raised with stock do not consider that stock to be prey. They consider them to be one of the pack.

*Female human behavior:* If you lay one hand on those horses for any reason, she will either kill you, maim you, sue you, throw you out, or all of the above. Messing with a woman's horse is like messing with a mama bear's babies.


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## Silent one (Aug 22, 2011)

Celeste said:


> Several things I can tell you about animal behavior.
> 
> *Horse behavior: *Horses are not plotting to hurt your dogs. They just want to eat, take it easy, and hang out with their friends. If they are left alone, chances are they will be good.
> 
> ...


Darn Celeste, you are on a roll! Had to laugh at that one!


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Celeste said:


> I just want to say that I agree with Darrin.
> 
> If I recall, the whole worry was that you are moving in with your girlfriend and are worried that her horses are going to kill your dogs. Something like that.
> 
> ...


Celeste,

The three 'S's are useful when dealing with people's dogs. Likewise, there are methods employed to assure virtual absence of credible evidence concerning stock and equine animals. Trust me, its easier then one would assume. From feed invasion to a stroll through the night with a tin can and some feed. Female Human Behavior is awesome, when you have legality to back it up. 

I'd never condone such a practice short of the instances I've already spoken of. A person having to much fun gunning down folks dogs without a justifiable reason. I'd hate the idea, but I appreciate the necessity to practice it as well as the 'SSS' concept when needed. Again, when needed. If you shot a dog for strolling through your yard causing no mischief, well. I can't say I'd condemn it than.

I knew one good friend whoes aunt raised golden retrievers. The farmer next door was found to be killing them. She caught him twice trying to lure her two *****'s into the street, going so far as to have unlatched the gate. In the end her breeding stock was shrunk from 7 to two. Including the puppies who were apparently sprayed with some toxic chemical. Fortunately my friend and one other took a long, quiet walk along the pasture one night and....well. The only thing I felt bad about was apparently he had a guard dog too. Sucked. Maybe he learned something, I hope he did.

Anyway, I can not imagine the need to do that. I really dont. I'd ask you never to place me in that position, as I would do everything available to avoid it myself. But anything is able to fail, from gates to door locks. I would only ask you be level headed and thoughtful of the consequences, as I would be if I found someone else horse, dog, cow, or child in my yard. Just a month ago I found a girl in my front yard, very young, asking if I had any kids to be her friends. Scared me because of the area I lived in. I asked where she lived and I took her over there and talked to her grandmother. It was well worth getting to work an hour late. Well worth it.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

No normal human is going to shoot their neighbor's dog if it is not bothering anything.

Any normal human would help a lost child get home.

And I have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to paragraph 1, except that you like women if they are legal. When you say legal, do you mean of legal age, or if you are married legally to them, or do you have an affinity for attorneys?


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Sorry that I didn't read all of the posts, but my horses live in the back yard and are in daily contact with my dogs. They get along very well, but once in awhile the dogs irritate them and they lower their heads, pin ears and chase them, usually it's just a warning. I guess that I can't imagine that your horse would have NO contact with any dogs, but dealing with a dog while you are schooling or handling would give your horse the skill to be assertive. I know that mine would have NO PROBLEM dealing with an aggressive dog. Here is a shot of last weekend "trail riding" about 1/4 mile north of the cornfield to the west of my property.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Celeste said:


> No normal human is going to shoot their neighbor's dog if it is not bothering anything.
> 
> Any normal human would help a lost child get home.
> 
> And I have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to paragraph 1, except that you like women if they are legal. When you say legal, do you mean of legal age, or if you are married legally to them, or do you have an affinity for attorneys?


No, I meant if they can legally provide proof you've caused damage to their property (horses). Personally I dont like the idea of considering animals as property, but it does provide a legal framework for protection and rights of say over their welfare (or lack thereof).

And I can assure you many folks do sadly do that. It's sickening. And thank you about the child compliment. I have a niece and....God I dont even want to imagine something happening. Kids are young, they get to make mistakes. The grandmother seemed oblivious to anything tho, I wonder if she was all together there. Seemed nice enough.


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## colocityboy (Aug 1, 2012)

Corporal said:


> Sorry that I didn't read all of the posts, but my horses live in the back yard and are in daily contact with my dogs. They get along very well, but once in awhile the dogs irritate them and they lower their heads, pin ears and chase them, usually it's just a warning. I guess that I can't imagine that your horse would have NO contact with any dogs, but dealing with a dog while you are schooling or handling would give your horse the skill to be assertive. I know that mine would have NO PROBLEM dealing with an aggressive dog. Here is a shot of last weekend "trail riding" about 1/4 mile north of the cornfield to the west of my property.


Beautiful horse! I remember seeing endless cornfields when I drove to Chicago. Cute dog. Yah that would be my aspiration, to get the horse to the point where their just fine. Hell even me and the lady get into arguments once in awhile (she normally wins, its easier to just cave and roll the way the dog will when I walk in a stomping fashion at her).

I had to like your comment, great comment. So far more I've sort of assembled the comments, cut and pasted, and using that I have managed to learn some stuff. Could always use more. I want the our future horse to become a part of the 'pack' where they co-exist fine. Than again, I am increasingly beginning to realize that, like humans, fences make great neighbors.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Fences make GREAT neighbors. My neighbors to the north and south--there are only 3 people on our side of the street, ha, ha--are both separated by my fences and they are both great neighbors.
If your neighbor's dog comes close to your fence and you are riding, ride towards the dog. Your horse is so much bigger and the dog will most likely back down. IF you scare the dog enough he'll leave you both alone. BTW, both of my dogs like to run with my horses and look for excuses to MAKE them run. Also, my dog ("Rose") in the pictures above is a Husky/GS x Border Collie cross, who still is an energizer bunny at 5yo. Here is my other dog, ("Pygma"), a 4 1/2yo Lab/GS x Pitbull cross. And, yes, my horse, "Long Arm of the Law" (aka "Sweet Cup&Cakes") is pretty tall, 16'3hh, and a KMH.


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## Randella (Dec 13, 2011)

Celeste said:


> *Female human behavior:* If you lay one hand on those horses for any reason, she will either kill you, maim you, sue you, throw you out, or all of the above. Messing with a woman's horse is like messing with a mama bear's babies.


Bahaha, too true! Like x inifinity


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Corporal, your comment about lowering the head and charging in warning made me laugh at a memory. We have kill deer running around all over the place here. If you don't know what one is they are a bird who nests on the ground, they are constantly going off (very annoying to me) if anything gets near their nest or babies to get that animals attention. If that doesn't work they start playing the whole broken wing game and leading animals away.

Anyway, one day my gelding got really fed up with the racket. He pinned back his ears, lowered his head, opened his gator like mouth and charged that bird as fast as he could. I had a gut ache from laughing so hard and by god he was sure proud of himself for getting rid of that bird.


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## Failbhe (May 8, 2012)

As far as having horses and dogs coexisting, I'll also advocate good fences between the two - even if both horses and dogs are "perfectly" trained, the fact is that a horse is a very large and heavy animal with rock-hard feet. It's very possible for a well-meaning horse to accidentally step on a friendly dog, with no aggressive intentions from either animal. While it is rare, and most dogs seem to sense that they shouldn't be right underfoot, if you want to be 100% sure that your dog won't get hurt then they should never be left unattended. 

My dogs often accompany me on the trails and they are fantastic companions, and I would never want anything to happen to either my dogs or my horses, and they are never allowed to mingle unsupervised.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

soileddove said:


> I was trying to find to post where you talked about how you introduced your dog to cats.. Unfortunately I just can't find it scanning through.. So I apologize that you've already talked about it, but please, how did you introduce them?


If you mean me, I can tell you about what we did. 

First off, every dog that I ever had except one was raised with cats. When they were little puppies, they would try to chase the cat and the cat swatted them on the nose. They developed a deep respect for cats and they never noticed that they weigh 100 pounds and the cat only 6 pounds. This is by far the best way.

I did have a dog that was given to me as an adult. He killed and mutilated my daughter's beloved cat. My first reaction was to put him down, but I decided to try to train him. I would take him out on the leash to start with. If he even walked toward the cats, I would jerk his dang head off. If he chased them, I took a riding crop to him. Since he was so stubborn, it got so that basically even looking toward the cats earned him a whipping. He did leave our cats alone. He didn't like it, but he learned to out of respect for me (or the riding crop). I never totally trusted him alone in the house with the cats. He was a fairly aggressive dog anyway, so he was in the pen unless I was with him. He was a great horseback riding dog. He ran in front of the horses and kept the path clear of wildlife. 

I will never accept a grown dog that is not totally cool with cats, horses, chickens, and children again. It was too much trouble and too much heartbreak. If I were going to try it again, I would use an electric collar. But I'm not going to. There are too many nice dogs available.

Puppies learn so much easier.


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## Randella (Dec 13, 2011)

That's exactly what I did with my dog!

It's funny to see my big bulky 100lb dog cowering in a corner because my 5lb cat swatted at him for laying in her sunning spot on the floor


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

We had a cat that would rip the nose off of any strange dog she ran across. She would then walk around it's legs and under their belly and the dog better stand there patiently or she would rip their nose off again. Once introductions were done she would promptly do her cats best at ignoring the dog from then on. She would only acknowledge the dog again if it made a pest of itself and that was just for long enough to reinforce the nose ripping off lesson.


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## soileddove (Jul 27, 2010)

Celeste said:


> If you mean me, I can tell you about what we did.
> 
> First off, every dog that I ever had except one was raised with cats. When they were little puppies, they would try to chase the cat and the cat swatted them on the nose. They developed a deep respect for cats and they never noticed that they weigh 100 pounds and the cat only 6 pounds. This is by far the best way.
> 
> ...


I didn't mean you, but thank you. I thought he, colocityboy, had been saying something about how he introduced his dog to cats and geese or something.. ha ha Must've imagined it. 

Anyway.. I was going to say something similar to what you said. That's how I've always introduced dogs to cats.. They may be very laid back and have great re-call, but eventually they're going to give chase and get swiped.. Then they never do it again. That's how it went with my two dogs, and how I believe it generally goes. Yours is a sad exception. :-(

I was just trying to gain insight as to his training methods and I was wondering why, if they work so well, they can't simply be applied to the girlfriends horse.. I assume she can handle her horse well, and if his dog is well trained, there really should be no issue.

But anyway.. I think its just a lot more simple to allow their natural instincts to kick in and learn the lesson themselves. The lesson will be more ingrained.

Just like.. Kids and electric fences. They never believe you that its hot until they find out on their own. No one wants their kids to get shocked, but once they do, they don't mess with it again.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

soileddove said:


> I didn't mean you, but thank you. I thought he, colocityboy, had been saying something about how he introduced his dog to cats and geese or something.. ha ha Must've imagined it.
> 
> I was just trying to gain insight as to his training methods and I was wondering why, if they work so well, they can't simply be applied to the girlfriends horse.. I assume she can handle her horse well, and if his dog is well trained, there really should be no issue.


I also would be interested. I also don't think he is going to have a problem if his dog is well trained.


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## ThatDraftGirl (Jun 5, 2012)

I go riding with my pitbull, she either sits on the horse with me or trots along side us. She won't let other dogs near us and is a total recall dog, I just have to whistle and she's next to me again. 

I also actually carry a gun with me. Not just for loose dogs but for bear and mountain lion as well...

ETA: And before anyone goes all animal rights on me, if a loose dog will not go away and is still intent on attacking my horse after being yelled at or charged, then I will shoot it. Keep your dogs contained people, or at least pay attention when they are outside and you know there is a rider on the road/near by! I will not feel sorry for shooting a viscious dog.


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## Island Horselover (Apr 4, 2012)

as I am on the trails and beach a lot I have quiet some irresponsible dog owners to keep up with every day :0) Best thing is to carry a camera and take a pic of dog and owner if you can and tell them that you will send this to the authorities or whoever is the contact for that park or beach... they will not let their dog off leash again (at least not if it is not trained). I also carry a whip and I have one horse (the one I usually use as lead horse) that turn her butt to the dog and would kick if the dog would come to close... Dogs are not suppost to chase wildlife or any other domestic animal and here where I live I would be even allowed to kill the dog if it would attack my horse... I could never do that I think as I blame the owner and not the dog who is just being a dog!


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## ridesapaintedpony (Apr 14, 2009)

soileddove said:


> The only thing I'd worry about is getting your horse or yourself? I've considered doing this as well, but the fact that my horse might turn into it or something keeps me from doing so.. Have you ever had to use it?


No, thank goodness. I'm always aware of the direction of the wind just in case. Usually a deep "NO! BAD DOG!" works. (I've been training dogs for 30+ years). The dogs usually slink off.


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