# Please Identify the Remains of This Carriage - Possible Rebuild??



## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

What would you be using this carriage for? If it's simply for decorative purposes I say go for it. However if you're planning on using the carriage when you're done, I wouldn't waste my time. I didn't see a single part that I'd trust to use to rebuild the thing. You want something SAFE, and all of those parts are dry rotted or rusted through or too broken to fix. If you're looking for a carriage to drive, scrap that pile of junk and go buy a used one in good condition. It's hard to tell from the condition of the thing but it almost looks to me like an old buckboard wagon frame, rather than a carriage …. although I certainly may be wrong. I think it would be a very fun ornamental project but I wouldn't trust it to be pulled behind my horses unless you get all new parts, and that's going to be more trouble than it's worth. 


-- Kai


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

subbing. Sad to see something rot away :frown_color:


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## Cooper Hill (Jun 12, 2018)

Kaifyre, it would just be decorative for the yard. None of the parts are rusted through, and I think they will clean up nicely with a good sand blasting and fresh paint. Still not sure they’d be up to actual use, however. It will make a beautiful piece for the yard in any case.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Oh maybe it's just the angle of the sun in the pictures making it look rusty …. in that case I think you should do it! Depending on what look you're going for perhaps a good stain job would look better than paint? I've seen some really awesome looking stained carriages from back in the day. You'll want to get in touch with someone who builds and send them pictures and see what you need … I believe Frontier Carriages builds? They're certainly very friendly, I've spoken with them once or twice and they were always very helpful. 

Draft Horse Saddle | Horse Harness | Jasper MO | Frontier Equestrian

I am very curious to see whether this is actually a carriage or a wagon. My money is on wagon but I'm certainly no expert … I can't wait to see it done! I think it will be a gorgeous addition to the yard. : )


-- Kai


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## Cooper Hill (Jun 12, 2018)

Thanks so much! I will follow up with someone who makes wagons & carriages when I start to figure out what I need. I’ve been poking around the internet, and staining can have some amazing results. 

If anyone from Louisville wants to come by for a closer look in trying to figure out what it is, feel free to send me a PM.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Take that one wheel and the steps off and hang them on the wall. The rest is kindling.the wheels are too light to be a wagon. Buggies that do not have prestigous(Brewster, French, etc....) Name tags intact are cheap.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

It's not worth rebuilding. I agree to take the metal parts for ornaments and leave the rest. You can pick up a no-name buggy or farm wagon at auction for a lot less than it will cost you to rebuild this if all you want it for is a yard ornament, or fix up one that is worth fixing. This one isn't.


It's been left too long to be saved.


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

There's nothing more discouraging than falling in love with a decrepit old buggy and having everyone tell you to chuck it in the burn pile! A friend of mine tells me every old buggy I drag home is a candidate for the burn pile! LOL! What you have is an end-spring buggy, with a slanted toeboard and straight sill, meaning that the front wheels were not able to pass under the body in a tight turn. Those heavy front-to-back, iron-bound timbers are sills. You can see a "rub roller" on one, which prevented the wheel from binding or damaging the body when the wheel and body connected in a turn. You have a "double reach" gear, the reaches being the two bars that attach the front and rear axles, which suggests a little bit heavier carriage than a light runabout. You have a front step and a passenger step, which suggests perhaps a four passenger, two seat surrey. The springing is by far too light for a wagon. You have shafts for a single horse. What you don't have is any pattern whatsoever for the body or seats, and there is no ironwork visible for the missing body parts. My guess is that it was bought for its yard art value in the first place! There is a picture of a surrey on eBay that very much resembles what yours probably looked like. https://www.ebay.com/itm/182524043818?rmvSB=true


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

Actually, you COULD rebuild this into something usable, with the understanding that it is VERY expensive and you'd never get your money out of it. Carriages are very modular. Rebuilding a carriage is not actually one project but a series of very small projects. You have the wheels, which means you have the inner hub sleeve (boxing) that matches the axle. These were not standard, so it's imperative to have the hubs. The wheels can be rebuilt around the boxings. The next "module" is the gear and all of the gear is there. The body is entirely separate from the gear and probably bolts on with about eight bolts. You can get "working drawings" for carriages like a surrey that can be scaled, and give a good idea of framing. You might like to visit the Carriage Assn. of America - www.caaonline.com Carriage restoration is not for everyone, but for some of us, it is a lifelong passion.


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## Cooper Hill (Jun 12, 2018)

Your posts really help in scoping the projexy, dogpatch - Thanks! Is there any way to determine the approximate age based on the metal parts? Did manufacturers stamp any information on any parts in particular?


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

The only way to approximate an age, really, is to find identifying marks. On my last project, I discovered the name of the axle manufacturer on the underside of the axles and did a search. I discovered that the company was in business under that particular name (it was reorganized several times) between 1885 and 1895, and that the gear, at least, came from Coshocton Ohio. When identifying a vehicle, that much information is a gold mine! ) It dated the vehicle, but didn't tell me who actually manufactured it. You will find numbers stamped here and there stamped into the iron work, but they are pretty much irrelevant to identification. Mostly they're just part numbers. I've gone through trying to semi-date vehicles by bolt threads (I forget when threads were standardized, but most carriages do not have modern standardized threads on fastening hardware). These vehicles were made over a long period of time, ranging probably from 1860s to 1930s or 40s, and made by the tens, perhaps hundreds, of thousands. It's a delicious mystery that is never fully solved, unless the vehicle comes with provenance. I believe a great many carriages were scrapped to provide metal for the WWII war effort. BTW, I was recalling my first "restoration", which was a worse wreck than yours, but had bits of the body left, which enabled me to "reimagine" it. It was also a surrey, but with a little different springing than yours. I did indeed resurrect it to functionality, and saw it some 30 years after I restored it, still ready to drive. It wasn't "authentic" but it was sound. That was back in the 70s, when driving was just beginning to have a rennaisance. Antique carriage restoration as a hobby or vocation was pretty much left by the wayside when enthusiasts swayed firmly toward competition and modern vehicles. The Carriage Assn of America is the go-to source for history and restoration advice.


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