# Amazing Dressage Video



## spookychick13

*Amazing Video*

Someone posted this on FB, I can't find it on youtube to share it.
Does anyone know who this horse is, or what he is?

Gorgeous!

Login | Facebook


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## Spyder

spookychick13 said:


> Someone posted this on FB, I can't find it on youtube to share it.
> Does anyone know who this horse is, or what he is?
> 
> Gorgeous!
> 
> Login | Facebook



Nice tricks but not dressage.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Spyder said:


> Nice tricks but not dressage.


I'm confused by this. I understand what you're saying technically, but not literally. What is the definition of Dressage then? Is an Intro Level Walk Trot horse/rider performing Dressage but this horse isn't because he's not in a Dressage ring and performing maneuvers you wouldn't see in a Dressage ring? I know it's not technically Dressage, but it's still higher school training and Dressage is obviously the main component.

To the OP, I would bet money on this being an Andalusian/Lusitano. The very nature of his training is very Spanish, something you would see on an Andalusian/Lusitano trained to bull fight.


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## csimkunas6

Great video!! I agree that it is probably an Andi, and or Lustiano, breeds that I have only dreamt of owning...gorgeous horse!! and IMO very well trained!


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## Navaho2010

I would definatly say Lusitano or an Andalusian, But im going more towards Lusitano, it seams to be some sort of Demo, not considered dressage, the girl is performing the spanish walk its a trait those horses are known for performing. 
Very beautiful though!


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## xXEventerXx

Most of the things the horse and rider did was tricks BUT she was doing some dressage movements


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## Spyder

xXEventerXx said:


> Most of the things the horse and rider did was tricks BUT she was doing some dressage movements



Just because they are dressage-like movements does not mean they ARE dressage.


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## Spastic_Dove

Spyder said:


> Just because they are dressage-like movements does not mean they ARE dressage.


Can you elaborate?


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## MightyEventer

i would say this is more natural horsemanship, yes there are a few dressage movements and it was incorporated with training-as with all disciplines but many of the movements, you would not see in the dressage ring. She took some dressage movements and turned them to look more like a trick.

to an extent, dressage is with in every discipline whether its western riding or hunters, its just altered to fit the needs of the discipline-obviously dressage riders do much more advanced movements then hunter riders though.

this simply is just not the pure dressage discipiline


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## xXEventerXx

Ok, so im just going to explain that dressage was started years ago when the soldiers at war in there spare time taught the horses to do different movements. 

The definition of dressage is the art or method of training a horse in obedience and in precision of movement.

...so really there is no specific movements for it. unless your talking about dressage shows..ect


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## Spyder

Spastic_Dove said:


> Can you elaborate?



Mainly that dressage is the SYSTEMATIC training of the horse, building up from the bottom over a period of time.

I have seen how the horses depicted in the video are trained and that is NOT what dressage is all about. Many of these horses are performing piaffs but can't do a simple well ridden medium trot.

I boarded at a barn where the owner came from Spain and I can tell you I would NEVER train like what I saw.


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## JustDressageIt

As Spyder said, neat tricks, but not the essence of dressage - the horse is still very much on his forehand, which is against the very fundamentals of dressage training.


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## RodeoLoco

I am not a very big fan of dressage. And I think this is too much. It just doesn't look. . natural, for the horse to be doing this. I don't like the look of it. But as for breed, I have to say, I don't think he's an Andy. I am thinking lusitano. Andalusian's tend to have a bit more mane, and are built a bit more thick.


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## JustDressageIt

RL, dressage is the essence of any good riding - getting the horse to move correctly under you. The horse in that video is mostly doing tricks.


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## Spastic_Dove

That makes sense. 

What about the horses you see doing the demonstrations of bull fighting or the sort of... obstacle courses. Someone help me out here. I think there is a horse called merlin or something? Usually spanish horses with a high degree of collection but not doing an actual dressage test. 

I feel that they are applying dressage but now it seems that may not be true...?


ETA: 

This guy:


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## JustDressageIt

Merlin is quite amazing. He really engages his hind, and (in my personal opinion) utilizes dressage under a western-type saddle in a practical-application-use setting.

Did that even make sense?!


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## Spastic_Dove

Yes! That's what I was trying to say. :lol:


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## riccil0ve

I can't see the video. =\


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## MightyEventer

Ah are those spears he is stabbing into the bull? ah poor bull-but great horse-very impressive!


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## xXEventerXx

I really hate that art, they stab the bull many times and after there done they kill the bull.

But it is amazing how the horse moves like that, almost playing tag


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## Spastic_Dove

I didn't really want to start a bull fighting debate, Im just curious if he is doing dressage. I think he is. 

I have seen videos of horses moving like him through obstacles in some sort of competition. Don't know what it's called though so I just did the video with the bull..


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## SAsamone

I agree with what was stated previously, that this is more natural horsemanship. Dressage manuevers are very specific to that particular competition, and most of these are...well, tricks. Very, very advanced ones, yes, but that's what they are. I don't ride dressage, so if I'm wrong, please correct me, but I do know that they are very specific about what you can and cannot do, and even from the beginning I THINK it stopped being dressage when she took off the bridle. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong. Great video though! You should see the one of stacy westfall reining freestyle...it's very similar and neat to watch!


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## glitterhorse

This was so great! I hope in the future I can train a horse to do that!


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## ponyboy

I agree this isn't dressage - it's way more interesting! And to think I ignored this video for days because the title said "dressage" lol



Spastic_Dove said:


> I have seen videos of horses moving like him through obstacles in some sort of competition. Don't know what it's called though so I just did the video with the bull..


I've seen that too, and I wish I knew the name of it. And I would sell my soul for that horse.~


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## NorthernMama

I can't even see the video because I don't "facebook"... man, I hate that, but I hate facebook more. I guess there are some things I must give up for privacy.


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## SPhorsemanship

The facebook video does incorporate dressage. There is collection and communication. Just because tricks are added doesn't mean it isn't dressage. It wouldn't fall into the category of the modern competitive dressage. That dressage has rules and guidelines that makes it that way. What about classical dressage? They do spanish walk and things like levades that you could call tricks but that is most definitely dressage. I don't think you should categorize dressage and say something is dressage or not dressage. Yes, it's not the "competitive", but it is dressage. She had some tricks that wouldn't be considered dressage but I would call her riding dressage.

As for the rejoneador(bullfighter), I wouldn't say that is not dressage because it doesn't have the same relaxation of dressage. It follows similar principals, the main ones being communication and collection, but it is also very different. I think the riders and horses are fantastic but I don't agree with the way the bulls are treated and killed.


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## SAsamone

^^That's a good way to look at it; I didn't know there was more than one style to dressage.


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## JustDressageIt

Sp, I respectfully disagree - the horse is heavily on the forehand; the very basis of dressage is getting the horse off the forehand. The "piaffe" is not true, but a neat non-dressage trick.
Tricks, without embodying the very basics of dressage. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spyder

JustDressageIt said:


> Sp, I respectfully disagree - the horse is heavily on the forehand; the very basis of dressage is getting the horse off the forehand. The "piaffe" is not true, but a neat non-dressage trick.
> Tricks, without embodying the very basics of dressage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely agree.

This has nothing to do with competitive or non competitive dressage.

The worst part is the back and forth movement done early in the video as this throwing the horse around like this is not only NOT dressage it goes against the very essence of dressage.


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## Allison Finch

I agree, nice tricks, nothing more.

And for Merlin, his days are numbered, as nice as he is. There are too many videos of this same trainer having horses gored and disemboweled out from under him. Merlin will be too, when he makes his move a fraction of a second too late.

Dressage can be seen in many disciplines. However, a common theme must be engagement of the haunch, lightness of the forehand and the ability and desire for self carriage.


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## ponyboy

JustDressageIt said:


> Sp, I respectfully disagree - the horse is heavily on the forehand; the very basis of dressage is getting the horse off the forehand.


Most horses spend their whole lives traveling on their forehand and you know what happens to to them because of it? NOTHING. That is the natural way horses move. 

I agree that this is not dressage, but if the implication is that dressage is "better" I disagree with that. I know that if I ever had to face any kind of threat on a horse I'd want to be riding one of these Spanish beauties or a reining or cutting horse, not a modern dressage horse. Dressage is not better, just different.


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## JustDressageIt

I'm simply stating that this video does not portray a horse doing dressage, as it obviously doesn't even know the most basic of dressage training. 

Most people travel around in poor posture, and while it appears that their bodies aren't suffering... They are. You can see the effects in sounded shoulders and almost hump-backs, in sore knees, hips and backs. Same goes for horses. Them traveling around on the forehand may not seem to do any harm, but over time you can see the effects. Traveling in proper posture, for both man and beast, is overall better for our long-term health.

I think of dressage as a universal term for getting a horse light, responsive, and off the forehand. I'm a hunter/jumper rider, but use dressage to improve my sport. Merlin is light, responsive, and off the forehand. Reining is western dressage. 

I believe dressage training can improve almost any equine discipline as it teaches both horse and rider to move properly together in harmony. That can be done bareback, english, western, whatever. You don't have to have a black saddle and white pants to do dressage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt

Dressage is simply training. Training the horse to move properly, engaging the hindquarters and lightening the front end. Getting the rider in harmony, and both learning to be responsive to one another. Doesn't that sound like what most riders want!? A light, responsive, in-tune horse? One can take that as little or as far as they want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spyder

ponyboy said:


> Most horses spend their whole lives traveling on their forehand and you know what happens to to them because of it? NOTHING. That is the natural way horses move.


Yes and at trot it is called a natural trot. The effort required is only that which drives it from one clump of grass to the next.



> I agree that this is not dressage, but if the implication is that dressage is "better" I disagree with that.


I can't help if that is YOUR interpretation as it is not mine. Dressage would improve that horse's "natural" trot to a good working trot and teach the horse to utilize its rear much larger more powerful muscles to drive it forward WHILE CARRY WEIGHT in a more balanced less tiring way. 



> I know that if I ever had to face any kind of threat on a horse I'd want to be riding one of these Spanish beauties


Considering these horses have a more exaggerated knee action they would not be my choice if I needed to flee from a perceived threat...too much wasted movement. I would want something that had large strides and could turn and run with speed and keep their balance for sudden turns.


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## ponyboy

Spyder said:


> Considering these horses have a more exaggerated knee action


Reining horses have exaggerated knee action?? And you want a _long_ stride for agility?? I don't think so - the shorter the stride, the faster you can change the horse's trajectory. Longer strides take more time to complete and you cannot change anything while the horse's feet are off the ground.





JustDressageIt said:


> Most people travel around in poor posture, and while it appears that their bodies aren't suffering... They are.


The way a horse travels is a continuum, not a binary. At either end of the scale, the horse will have difficulty moving forward. Think paasage/piaffe at one end and slow-mo Western pleasure peanut-rolling at the other. Neither one of those postures is very useful for other disciplines. The comparison you're making is like that between an average person and an elite athlete, not between a person with good posture and bad posture. The middle of the scale - the neutral frame -_ is_ good posture for a horse. A rounded frame might improve some aspects of a horse's physiology, but it also takes more energy and muscle strength to achieve. Nature doesn't like spending extra energy when it doesn't have to. 



All of which is to say that just because a horse never receives dressage training does not mean it will suffer as a result. It doesn't even mean that the horse won't be successful in any discipline besides dressage (watched any show jumping lately? Rounded horses are rare these days).



On another note, come to think of it, I disagree with statement that dressage = engagement of the hind end. Like Ziegler explains in Easy-Gaited Horses, it is that misconception that leads people to believe a racking horse is collected. In the rack, the horse engages its hind end for part of the stride and disengages it for the other. In dressage the hind end stays engaged for the _whole_ stride. It is a "sustained lowering of the hind quarters" as she puts it. A horse doesn't have to be in a rounded frame to be making good use of its hind quarters.


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## JustDressageIt

Spyder was referring to Merlin. He does have more upward than forward movement. 
Changing trajectory doesn't matter if you simply need to outrun something. 
Beyond that, you're completely missing my point, but my thumbs aren't strong enough to reply right now - I'll try to remember to reply when I have a full-sized keyboard in front of me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~

This video is perfect for a "how to tell if a piaffe is trick trained" tutorial.
The wagging of the head and the over activity behind combined with the bouncing motion are all tell tale signs of the horse not being collected and merely performing a trick.

The bridleless ones are cool looking, as long as you are watching the front legs. I think I saw less than half of the changes being clean and by the end the horse was just kind of cow cantering.

As Spyder said. Nice tricks, not dressage.


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## SPhorsemanship

JustDressageIt said:


> Sp, I respectfully disagree - the horse is heavily on the forehand; the very basis of dressage is getting the horse off the forehand. The "piaffe" is not true, but a neat non-dressage trick.
> Tricks, without embodying the very basics of dressage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Spyder said:


> Absolutely agree.
> 
> This has nothing to do with competitive or non competitive dressage.
> 
> The worst part is the back and forth movement done early in the video as this throwing the horse around like this is not only NOT dressage it goes against the very essence of dressage.


You guys have a valid point.


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## ponyboy

JustDressageIt said:


> Changing trajectory doesn't matter if you simply need to outrun something.


I was talking about facing something not running from it. The original purpose of dressage training was for war after all. 

But as for me missing your point, I'll save you some time by telling you now I don't think it's right to impose _any_ kind of frame on a horse. That goes for all disciplines. I think that if a horse is 1) trained gently 2) ridden properly and 3) free of medical issues, their bodies will naturally figure out how to do what we want them to in the most efficient way. Nature is better at this stuff than we are - otherwise we wouldn't have invented rolkur, peanut rolling and Big Lick. Ah, but those are all perversions of good ideals, you say... Yes they are, but that's the problem with ideals: Sooner or later they get corrupted. 

IMO if you want a certain kind of movement, breed for it. Otherwise leave the horse party much alone. That's my philosophy.


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## SPhorsemanship

ponyboy said:


> I was talking about facing something not running from it. The original purpose of dressage training was for war after all.
> 
> But as for me missing your point, I'll save you some time by telling you now I don't think it's right to impose _any_ kind of frame on a horse. That goes for all disciplines. I think that if a horse is 1) trained gently 2) ridden properly and 3) free of medical issues, their bodies will naturally figure out how to do what we want them to in the most efficient way. Nature is better at this stuff than we are - otherwise we wouldn't have invented rolkur, peanut rolling and Big Lick. Ah, but those are all perversions of good ideals, you say... Yes they are, but that's the problem with ideals: Sooner or later they get corrupted.
> 
> IMO if you want a certain kind of movement, breed for it. Otherwise leave the horse party much alone. That's my philosophy.


I don't see anything wrong with dressage when it is done properly. In *ANYTHING *there are people out to take shortcuts and cheat. Sadly in the horse industry, horses are the ones being cheated and exploited. That is something wrong with the horse industry, not dressage. When you are getting a horse to move a different way and carry its weight on its haunches, and you are doing it properly, it is actually beneficial for the horse. Why don't they do it naturally?-it is too physically and mentally demanding for them to learn it on their own. No, it shouldn't be forced and a good trainer won't force it. You can call those trainers who force it bad, but not dressage. If you then want to say that dressage allows for bad training. The bad training is bad training, dressage in itself is proper training so don't say the proper training is bad. Check out the trainer Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling. He controls stallions with only a rope hanging loosely on its neck and those stallions are moving willingly on their haunches and changing their movement. That's on the ground and in saddle(more like classical dressage), I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

EDIT: You can't breed collection and extension into a horse. You can breed them so it's easier for collection and extension but those come from training. Some horses have naturally higher or extended gaits but that isn't dressage, at all.


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## JustDressageIt

I can see there is no point in arguing with a mind so closed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SPhorsemanship

My mind is open to whatever you want to tell me . I don't know if you were saying that to me or someone else.


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## JustDressageIt

Not to you SP. We must have posted at the same time or I didn't see your post. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spyder

JustDressageIt said:


> I can see there is no point in arguing with a mind so closed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Ponyboy has posted elsewhere on this forum that leads me to believe that they like to talk the big talk in as much argumentative style that they can, but peel away the paint and the boards have holes in them.


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## JustDressageIt

Ah yes. I think I've had some (as in shoulda saved my breath) arguments before.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ponyboy

SPhorsemanship said:


> That is something wrong with the horse industry, not dressage.


I said I was against any of "frame." Is not just dressage - there is a certain "frame" for reining too, and for most types of showing. I wasn't complaining about trainers taking shortcuts either - as you said, that happens in all disciplines. 

Let me put it another way: the word dressage means "training" - it was supposed to be a _means_ of achieving something, not an _end_ unto itself. When you treat getting the horse into a certain frame - e.g. controlling how they look - as the end goal, that goal inevitably gets twisted over time. Appearance is too subjective of a standard. One day a person who has some power and influence comes along and says "you know, I think it's okay for a horse's neck to be hyerflexed; I'm not going to mark that rider down" and voila, you have rolkur. The ideal standard slowly gets changed to one that doesn't have the horse's best interests in mind. 

In short, corruption is inevitable in any sport that is judged rather than scored. Human interpretation is too fallible to be the sole standard. You see the same problem in figure skating, for example.

I believe there are ways to solve this problem, but people often don't like change.



SPhorsemanship said:


> Why don't they do it naturally?-it is too physically and mentally demanding for them to learn it on their own.


THANK YOU! Nature's first goal is always to conserve energy, and collection wastes it. A horse doesn't know that being collected is "good" for him. All he knows is that he's being forced to spend more energy to travel the same amount of distance. _That_ is why collection is so hard to teach.


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## SPhorsemanship

ponyboy said:


> I said I was against any of "frame." Is not just dressage - there is a certain "frame" for reining too, and for most types of showing. I wasn't complaining about trainers taking shortcuts either - as you said, that happens in all disciplines.
> 
> Let me put it another way: the word dressage means "training" - it was supposed to be a _means_ of achieving something, not an _end_ unto itself. When you treat getting the horse into a certain frame - e.g. controlling how they look - as the end goal, that goal inevitably gets twisted over time. Appearance is too subjective of a standard. One day a person who has some power and influence comes along and says "you know, I think it's okay for a horse's neck to be hyerflexed; I'm not going to mark that rider down" and voila, you have rolkur. The ideal standard slowly gets changed to one that doesn't have the horse's best interests in mind.
> 
> *Yes dressage does mean training, and that is exactly what it is. **Wouldn't that something be a goal, or an end(e.g. a certain movement). **Piaffes, passages and pirouettes show that training and communication.* *Do you not know what dressage is? You don't EVER force a horse into a frame unless you aren't doing it properly, but that is not dressage's fault. Then you go on to talk about sport. Well dressage isn't only sport. There is nothing wrong with the essence of dressage here, only the horse industry as I've previously said. You can crap all over the horse industry but not the true ideals of dressage. In dressage, the rider wants a willing, calm, relaxed horse and that cannot ever come through force. In true dressage, the horse's best interests are kept in mind. It is sport that twists that, not dressage.*
> 
> In short, corruption is inevitable in any sport that is judged rather than scored. Human interpretation is too fallible to be the sole standard. You see the same problem in figure skating, for example.
> 
> *That's sport, not* *dressage. You don't have to compete to do dressage. Again, that's the horse industry.*
> 
> I believe there are ways to solve this problem, but people often don't like change.
> 
> 
> 
> THANK YOU! Nature's first goal is always to conserve energy, and collection wastes it. A horse doesn't know that being collected is "good" for him. All he knows is that he's being forced to spend more energy to travel the same amount of distance. _That_ is why collection is so hard to teach.
> *I don't know where you are going by this but there is nothing wrong with collection. The horse actually doesn't think he is being forced to waste a bunch of energy. Dressage is about willingness. *


There is nothing wrong with the essence of dressage.


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## Allison Finch

ponyboy said:


> Nature's first goal is always to conserve energy, and collection wastes it. A horse doesn't know that being collected is "good" for him. All he knows is that he's being forced to spend more energy to travel the same amount of distance. _That_ is why collection is so hard to teach.


 
You are wrong to think horses don't know that collection is good for them. Many use it all the time without rider influence. The stallion I am riding in my avatar is trained in dressage. He uses collection on his own all the time.

Here he has just finished a darn good pirouette all by himself. Notice that the poll is the highest point. No hint of rollkur there.










Here is a good medium trot










So, maybe you have to force collection. My horses learn to use it to their own advantage.


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## MightyEventer

ponyboy said:


> I agree this isn't dressage - it's way more interesting! And to think I ignored this video for days because the title said "dressage" lol
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen that too, and I wish I knew the name of it. And I would sell my soul for that horse.~


If you study dressage and the fundamentals of it, it can become very interesting. Im only 16 and now, i look more forward to my dressage lessons then jumping since i enjoy it more, i never thought i would say that when i was younger! In my opinion, it is much more interesting to do then just going around jumping a course


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## MightyEventer

ponyboy said:


> Reining horses have exaggerated knee action?? And you want a _long_ stride for agility?? I don't think so - the shorter the stride, the faster you can change the horse's trajectory. Longer strides take more time to complete and you cannot change anything while the horse's feet are off the ground.


If you are so set on the fact that nature wants horses to conserve energy, why would you want a horse that uses their legs so much more to travel the same distance to safety as a horse with a longer, more energy efficient would? My horse has a huge stride and we can cover a lot more space without getting overworked then a quick legged horse would. Think about it. If you are running in a race on foot, would you want long swift strides or want short choppier strides? In the end long strides are easier to cover distance quicker without getting fatigued. 

I could quote every post you have made on this fourm and point out the "flaws" in your logic such as nothing bad comes from a horse being on the forehand- because bad things do come from that problem. But why should i waste my time talking to an ignorant person who thinks he(or she) knows everything and anything about horse training when in reality im sure you dont.


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## Sarahandlola

This is what ya call an amazing dressage video!


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## MightyEventer

Sarahandlola said:


> This is what ya call an amazing dressage video!


That is my FAVORITE video! The horse is amazing! There was a freestyle at WEG's this past year that I fell in love with...I will have to look it up, the pair got a standing ovation!


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## Spastic_Dove

MightyEventer said:


> That is my FAVORITE video! The horse is amazing! There was a freestyle at WEG's this past year that I fell in love with...I will have to look it up, the pair got a standing ovation!


Was it the one with the grey spanish horse?


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## MightyEventer

Spastic_Dove said:


> Was it the one with the grey spanish horse?


yeah fuego i believe


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## Spastic_Dove

That's his name!


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## MightyEventer

Now those are good dressage videos but come on.... these two video show dressage at its finest


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## ponyboy

> *That's sport, not* *dressage. You don't have to compete to do dressage. Again, that's the horse industry. *



*
*
Oh, I agree! Dressage was not meant to be a competitive sport. Classical dressage is a beautiful thing. However, the fact is that most people wouldn’t be willing to give up competing. So we have to find another solution to the problem.




Allison Finch said:


> The stallion I am riding in my avatar is trained in dressage. He uses collection on his own all the time.



He is trained in dressage. It’s become a habit. Show me a foal or a wild horse doing that.




MightyEventer said:


> If you are so set on the fact that nature wants horses to conserve energy, why would you want a horse that uses their legs so much more to travel the same distance to safety as a horse with a longer, more energy efficient would?


I was discussing a very specific situation with a short duration. You would only want a short strided horse if you were in that kind of situation a lot, as is the case in some Western sports. 



But even a naturally short stride is not as inefficient as a collected one because it doesn’t necessarily involve as much upward momentum (leg lift). Again, look at the “flat” strides of many Western horses. That trait was developed for efficiency - Cowboys had to ride all day and conserving the energy of both horse and rider was important.




MightyEventer said:


> I could quote every post you have made on this fourm and point out the "flaws" in your logic such as nothing bad comes from a horse being on the forehand- because bad things do come from that problem.



I didn’t say that nothing bad EVER happens from a horse being on their forehand, I said that nothing bad AUTOMATICALLY happens. You are reading what you want to read.



Keep in mind there are different degrees of being on the forehand as well. In fact, ALL horses EXCEPT upper-level dressage horses travel on their forehands. What dressage riders call a “balanced” horse is the exception, not the rule.


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## MightyEventer

ponyboy said:


> Keep in mind there are different degrees of being on the forehand as well. In fact, ALL horses EXCEPT upper-level dressage horses travel on their forehands. What dressage riders call a “balanced” horse is the exception, not the rule.


Jumpers also need to be balanced and not on the forehand in order to jump well as well as jump safer and it also helps their joints.

And you specifically said : Most horses spend their whole lives traveling on their forehand and you know what happens to to them because of it? NOTHING. 

you certainly made it seem like nothing bad happens to horses who travel on the forehand.


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## Spyder

ponyboy said:


> *
> *He is trained in dressage. It’s become a habit. Show me a foal or a wild horse doing that.


Show me a stallion showing off to the mares and I will show you natural collection.




> But even a naturally short stride is not as inefficient as a collected one because it doesn’t necessarily involve as much upward momentum (leg lift).


Again show me a Hackney where the movement is short (on purpose) and upward. Not an efficient movement but a showy one bred for that purpose.


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## Arksly

Disclaimer: I'm not saying I have experienced all of these things but after reading a lot about what the 'ideal' is, going to clinics about those sorts of things, and watching various high-level people ride (so various training methods).

I wasn't able to see the Facebook video, but from my understanding, it's one of the videos where the horse can 'piaffe' or something similar but doesn't have the foundation from the beginning to do it properly. 

I recently went to a scribe clinic and the clinician (a judge) was explaining what the judge means when they are telling you what to write. It began with what dressage is. She brought out the training scale and explained it to us. My interpretation of dressage from her speech was basically the training scale. 

The training scale can be used in any discipline. The terms may not mean the exact same thing but it's usually similar. If a horse hasn't been brought up the training scale correctly before doing advanced movements, IMO, they are just tricks. When the horse has gone through all of those things and can do it properly, then it's dressage.

As for collection being a "waste of energy" I don't agree. A horse, when using it's hind end 'properly', can move much easier than one who's stuck on the forehand. After watching and riding my new quarter horse mare, when she does all of her stops and sharp turns (ones which would be used in cutting) she collects herself, does the movement, and then moves forward using her hind end to 'control' most of her movements. Even watching her in the pasture with the other horses, when she's running she'll use her hind end and go "into frame".

The 'it's because she's used to being trained to do that' excuse won't work with her. She's been trained 'dressage' for the past 1 1/2 - 2 months. Right now, I would still consider her 'green broke'. 

Collection also has different 'degrees'. You can go from simply rolling the weight onto the haunches and slightly rounding the stride then you can go to extreme collection such as a proper piaffe or pirouette, where all of the power is transferred to the back end and the front end becomes 'light' and flamboyant.

So, when someone uses the term 'collection' they may mean something different than you think they mean. Just something to keep in mind.


----------



## Allison Finch

Ponyboy
I doubt anything anyone could say would budge your mind, so I won't bother trying.

Have a good time playing with your mental blocks.


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## SPhorsemanship

Arksly said:


> Disclaimer: I'm not saying I have experienced all of these things but after reading a lot about what the 'ideal' is, going to clinics about those sorts of things, and watching various high-level people ride (so various training methods).
> 
> I wasn't able to see the Facebook video, but from my understanding, it's one of the videos where the horse can 'piaffe' or something similar but doesn't have the foundation from the beginning to do it properly.
> 
> I recently went to a scribe clinic and the clinician (a judge) was explaining what the judge means when they are telling you what to write. It began with what dressage is. She brought out the training scale and explained it to us. My interpretation of dressage from her speech was basically the training scale.


Is this the training scale? May I ask who the clinician was?


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## Arksly

Yes, that's it. I can't remember for the life of me what her name was though!


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## equiniphile

Sarahandlola said:


> This is what ya call an amazing dressage video!
> 
> YouTube - ANDREAS HELGSTRAND - WEG2006 Freestyle Final


 LOVE LOVE LOVE this video, it has to be the best dressage I've ever seen. Fantastic.


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## ponyboy

Arksly said:


> After watching and riding my new quarter horse mare, when she does all of her stops and sharp turns (ones which would be used in cutting) she collects herself, does the movement, and then moves forward using her hind end to 'control' most of her movements.



YES! That’s what I mean by using collection as a means instead of an end. You are not asking your horse for collection specifically, you are asking for a stop or a turn. The end is the fast stop or turn; collection is just the means used to do it. In that case collection isn’t a waste of energy because it really _is_ the most efficient way of getting the job done. The problem with asking for collection in a dressage test is that it's _never_ the most efficient means of simply getting from point A to point B. 



Spyder’s example of a stallion showing off for a mare is the same thing; the horse has a _reason_ to do what he’s doing. He has a goal. It’s practicing collection for the sake of practicing collection that the horse doesn’t understand. Since collection does take more energy, the horse has to have a very good reason for doing it. Modern dressage doesn't provide that reason.


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## MightyEventer

SPhorsemanship said:


> Is this the training scale? May I ask who the clinician was?


A Lot of dressage clinicians use the training scale, my dressage trainer made me memorize it lol, her name is Susan White. Based out of Maryland, she is FANTASTIC. My other main dressage trainer is JP Melugin who has worked with Susan so she uses the training scale also.


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## SPhorsemanship

ponyboy said:


> YES! That’s what I mean by using collection as a means instead of an end. You are not asking your horse for collection specifically, you are asking for a stop or a turn. The end is the fast stop or turn; collection is just the means used to do it. In that case collection isn’t a waste of energy because it really _is_ the most efficient way of getting the job done. The problem with asking for collection in a dressage test is that it's _never_ the most efficient means of simply getting from point A to point B.
> 
> 
> 
> Spyder’s example of a stallion showing off for a mare is the same thing; the horse has a _reason_ to do what he’s doing. He has a goal. It’s practicing collection for the sake of practicing collection that the horse doesn’t understand. Since collection does take more energy, the horse has to have a very good reason for doing it. Modern dressage doesn't provide that reason.


There's nothing wrong with a horse using energy...they're living animals for gods sake! Look how much energy wild horses use roaming and running. Domesticated horses don't have nearly as much space to run. They need the exercise.


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## Arksly

SPhorsemanship said:


> There's nothing wrong with a horse using energy...they're living animals for gods sake! Look how much energy wild horses use roaming and running. Domesticated horses don't have nearly as much space to run. They need the exercise.


 Agreed. It also helps the horse carry a person and prevent some unsoundness issues for the future.


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## SAsamone

equiniphile said:


> LOVE LOVE LOVE this video, it has to be the best dressage I've ever seen. Fantastic.


THAT is dressage...WOW...look at how effortless that horse is in front...beautiful


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## caitiebird49

This woman performed some AMAZING tricks, but only two true dressage movements. But, she took these movements and made them more trick oriented. However, I totally appreciate her training and performance. Awesome!


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## ponyboy

SPhorsemanship said:


> There's nothing wrong with a horse using energy...they're living animals for gods sake!


Lol, all animals use energy every moment of the day, obviously. So many of you make straw man arguments. 

And Allison is right, nothing anybody says will ever convince me competitive dressage is a good thing. IMO the best riders in the world are not the ones who get their horses in the prettiest frame or win the most competitions. They are the ones who ride without spurs or a bridle.


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## equiniphile

ponyboy said:


> IMO the best riders in the world are not the ones who get their horses in the prettiest frame or win the most competitions. They are the ones who ride without spurs or a bridle.


Any top level dressage rider who trains in the true ways of good dressage can ride their horses without bridles. Spurs are merely an extension of the leg for refinement, not something used to **** a horse off by kicking them. If you watch proper dressage, you will see spurs used to give specific cues, not to speed up a lazy horse.

I can ride my horse without a bridle and I'm not at the level where I need spurs to refine aids yet, but I am nowhere near as good a rider as those you see at the top.


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## Allison Finch

ponyboy said:


> Lol, all animals use energy every moment of the day, obviously. So many of you make straw man arguments.
> 
> And Allison is right, nothing anybody says will ever convince me competitive dressage is a good thing. IMO the best riders in the world are not the ones who get their horses in the prettiest frame or win the most competitions. They are the ones who ride without spurs or a bridle.


You see, it is comments like those that show how truly little you really know about dressage.

You can ride dressage without a bridle











But as you can see, the horse is not heavy on the forehand and using himself quite well. And, gee....he even looks happy. Go figure...

And spurs are NOT a weapon, simply a tool. I wear them on all my higher level horses (In eventing, they are mandatory at the highest levels). However, I very seldom use them. I don't have to kick with the back of my leg very often. I use squeezes with the inside of my leg. The spur never touches unless I move my toe away from the horse.


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## ponyboy

1. I never said you couldn't do dressage without a bridle. 

2. One thing I know for sure is that bridless riding is not allowed in dressage competitions. (I have also been watching dressage for 20 years, so I'm pretty sure I know more than that, but anyway...)

3. The horse in the neck rope is not collected, just balanced like any reasonably well-trained horse is - I've ridden _school_ horses capable of that. Good on the rider for trying though.

4. A bitless bridle is not necessarily milder than one with a bit. 

5. Neck ropes aren't much better; they still put pressure on a sensitive area (the front of the neck). The whole point of riding a without bridle or spurs is so that the horse doesn't feel unduly pressured to do what the rider wants. It's to prove (as far as possible) that they're doing what they're asked by choice. The best horseperson of all would be one who used visual cues or vocal commands because those things do not put any physical pressure on the horse.


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## SPhorsemanship

ponyboy said:


> Lol, all animals use energy every moment of the day, obviously. So many of you make straw man arguments.
> ​And Allison is right, nothing anybody says will ever convince me competitive dressage is a good thing. IMO the best riders in the world are not the ones who get their horses in the prettiest frame or win the most competitions. They are the ones who ride without spurs or a bridle.



I'm not retarded. I do grade 12 biology and I'm in grade 9. I know any living organism uses energy. You were arguing against a horse using any extra energy that it needs, all I said is that using extra energy is not bad like you said here _"The problem with asking for collection in a dressage test is that it's never the most efficient means of simply getting from point A to point B."_ so? Why can't a horse use any extra energy? 
The best riders in the world who ride without spurs and bits? Their horses don't use any extra energy? Is there something wrong with achieving oneness with your horse? Do you have to have a reason like doma vaquera (spanish ranch riding) ? What is wrong with doma classica and alta escuela(=forms of dressage)? 

Getting your horse in a collected state off the forehand is dressage, you don't have to compete.First you argue that dressage is bad and then go on to competitive dressage.Well which one? I've already said that the bad things in competitive dressage are not things wrong with dressage but with the *horse industry*. Modern dressage also is not about getting a horse into a pretty frame. Proper riding brings that forth, in proper dressage headset is not forced. I'm arguing for correct dressage, I cannot argue for incorrect dressage and I won't. You can pick any sport and find the bad athletes and go on to say the sport is bad, but you still don't have a good argument. If you think dressage is all about spurs and bits forcing horses into frames then you are wrong and you shouldn't be arguing it. Feel free to say rollkur is bad because that isn't training and that isn't what dressage is about. Bits and spurs are for communication. Communication= dressage. Any of the best dressage riders can ride without them, spurs and bits just enhance communication to allow them to achieve a higher standard of "oneness" with their horse. 

As for the best riders in the world, they use bits and spurs too. You can achieve oneness with a horse without them but you'll have a strong connection with them. Because many people abuse the use of bits and spurs, it doesn't make dressage bad. For thousands of years people have been using bits and spurs to communicate with their horses and do various versions of dressage(started in Rome). They didn't do competitive dressage. So because their sport wasn't called "FEI dressage", were they all of a sudden angels and exceptions to using bits and spurs? If you keep dressage as the constant and look at the variable in modern competitive dressage, the bad thing that stands out is improper training, shortcuts and misuse of training tools)- oh look, that's not a problem with dressage. That's a problem with the industry and bad riders.

If you do reply or quote me, please don't just make up some jibberish or crap on my intelligence.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

This thread.


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## SPhorsemanship

Agreed.


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## Allison Finch

Agreed


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## LittleFish

Regardless, that video was cool. Lol


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## ponyboy

SPhorsemanship said:


> You were arguing against a horse using any extra energy that it needs, all I said is that using extra energy is not bad like you said here



I didn’t say that using extra energy is “bad.” I said a horse doesn’t do it unless it’s necessary. And that’s true of everything we do in riding. Lots of people turn their horses out in fields with jumps – How many horses do you know jump the jumps by themselves, just for fun? Not many! What makes collection worse though is that it’s a lot harder than going over a jump. That’s why we have to be careful training it and why it’s dangerous to make it a key part of winning a competition.


And I didn’t call you a retard. I said you made a straw man argument, which everyone does occasionally (although now I think you just misunderstood what I said). 





SPhorsemanship said:


> As for the best riders in the world, they use bits and spurs too.


 That’s a matter of opinion. Although maybe I should have said best “horseperson” not necessarily best “rider.”

Anabel, THANK YOU so much for that post. In any debate, the first person to resort to personal attacks is the loser. Look back over this thread. I have answered every post calmly, rationally and without responding to taunts. Now, when someone new comes to this forum, who do think they are going to have the better opinion of (I should note here that _some_ people can respect a person even if they don’t agree with their point of view). 

You people argue with me for several pages and then pull out the “arguing on the internet is stupid!” line? I’m sorry, but most people are going to see the real reason why you posted that. 


What’s going on here is that I am challenging conventional ideas and some people feel threatened by that. And you know what? *I* can think of potential flaws in MY OWN argument that no one pointed out! Why is that, do you think? I have no idea personally.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Glad I could be of service. Please notice the only person still posting on this thread more than a few sentences is you. I personally have only stated my opinion on this thread, the picture happened to sum up my opinion rather nicely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spyder

ponyboy said:


> Now, when someone new comes to this forum, who do think they are going to have the better opinion of (I should note here that _some_ people can respect a person even if they don’t agree with their point of view).


If this is your argument that you feel you must impress a new poster ( or reader for that matter) then you have your priorities askew. 




> You people argue with me for several pages and then pull out the “arguing on the internet is stupid!” line? I’m sorry, but most people are going to see the real reason why you posted that.


DISCUSSIONS on a forum can be most informative..assuming one person does not feel they must impress some unknown reader or new poster, or until when one feels they are spilling the most golden words and _again everyone must be suitable impressed_ that the room empties with everyone shaking their head knowing that empty words become more worthless when said in a vacuum.




> What’s going on here is that I am challenging conventional ideas and some people feel threatened by that. And you know what? *I* can think of potential flaws in MY OWN argument that no one pointed out! Why is that, do you think? I have no idea personally.


When you figure it out that we have better things to do then maybe you will come to an understanding about yourself and realize that brick beds are not the most comfortable places to rest.:wink:


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## JustDressageIt

Not threatened in the least ponyboy - but I won't waste my time writing to someone so closed-minded and inflexible. I can see holes in your arguments so big you could drive a semi through them - but my arguments don't matter to you - you've made that painfully obvious since your first anti-dressage thread. 
Don't take my lack of response as running away, or having nothing to say.... Nothing I say will make a difference in your mind, so why waste our time?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ponyboy

JustDressageIt said:


> Not threatened in the least ponyboy - but I won't waste my time writing to someone so closed-minded and inflexible.


I debate with academics regularly. Part of debating means sometimes having to change your opinion. There is no shame in that, but there is shame in not fighting for what you think is right. So even though I disagree with your opinion, I will give you kudos for doing that. 

But being a debater means I need a watertight argument to have my mind changed. No one here has made one of those yet (or at least defended one well enough when challenged). As I pointed out last time, there is a MAJOR argument someone could make against what I am saying. I am waiting for someone to make it, and if they do, I just might CONCEDE DEFEAT. You're a smart person; I'm sure you can figure out what it is.

Consider this fair warning though: If you don't like having your viewpoints challenged, don't get involved with me in the future. I'm not the "can't we all just get along?" type. IMO having intellectual debates is what the Internet is for.


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## JustDressageIt

Nope. Not changing my argument, and I'm not arguing with someone so high- and closed-minded. Not worth my time or energy. And there are holes big enough to drive semis through; you just refuse to see them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spyder

ponyboy said:


> Consider this fair warning though: If you don't like having your viewpoints challenged, don't get involved with me in the future. I'm not the "can't we all just get along?" type. IMO having intellectual debates is what the Internet is for.



Consider this a fair warning...

You will probably be posting in a vacuum and not because there is no debate potential but the attitude you exude.

I see many holes and if I feel that a discussion would be viable and to the benefit of not just me but those the read but rarely post I have no problem diving in.

But guess what...I actually am busy elsewhere and my life does not revolve around this forum.

Note..you should look up SLC on our rival forum....you would have your debating partner....:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Northern

*Not so fast, pardners*

I've read ponyboy's posts on this thread & agree with just about everything said. Putting a horse into a "frame" shouldn't be a goal in & of itself, to feed the changing winds of fashion which arise from the human mind: rather, the horse's exercising a degree of collection is the most efficient way for the horse to use himself to execute the movement that the rider is "requesting". Further, the use of dressage as a competitive sport does indeed set up collection as an end in itself, going from A to B, e.g., yet also is based solely on the subjectivity of the sport's judges, there being no tasks involved, nor any time factor. And so on. All of this was presented most clearly & civilly, so there should have been no accusations of arrogance, etc.

I'm sure that I've said the same things as ponyboy here, on long-dead threads, & I've come to expect the usual resort to personal attack/false accusations of this or that, from certain members, that ponyboy has experienced here. :-(

I now am very interested to find what the holes in ponyboy's argument are, having understood that no one has thus far proffered any real ones. Will you tell us, ponyboy, if we - or should I say, I? - can't figure it out? You may pm me if you don't wish to post it.


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## Northern

I want to add I agree that intellectual debates are a fine justification for the internet, but not the sole one: old Alain Delon videos are also a justifiable raison d'etre!


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## lacyloo




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## Hoofprints in the Sand

Lol lacyloo!!!!!! Pass the popcorn please! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lacyloo

Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> Lol lacyloo!!!!!! Pass the popcorn please!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Would you like extra butter?

I just love these _"intellectual debates"._ Come on, where's everyone at?


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

Yes please...and some milk duds!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern

ponyboy & me: 

our respected debate opponents: :twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted:

Off to watch my Alain Delon videos till ponyboy returns!:thumbsup:


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## SPhorsemanship

This are the final things I have to say and then I think I'll just unsubscribe this thread and leave it:

1.Dressage isn't bad. Doing dressage improperly is bad. Doing any form of horse training improperly is bad. Misusing training aids such as bits and spurs is bad. 
-why is dressage bad? Well you to say that dressage is forcing a horse into a frame. Is that actually dressage? *I'm talking about real dressage.* Dressage=communication between horse and rider where the oneness brings you to collection and a capability of difficult movements. I am not talking about the many people in the horse industry who get the horse looking as pretty as possible with the horses' head pulled in and flicking their feet out as far as they can- *THAT IS NOT DRESSAGE!* Forcing a frame is not dressage. Any force is not dressage. Get mad at the industry for forcing, get mad at the bad riders for forcing, not at dressage! *Answer these questions ponyboy*: 
1) Is oneness, communication and collection with a completely willing horse(=horse wants to be doing what it is doing) bad?

2) Is it the true essence of dressage that is bad, or the ugly horse industry's interpretation of dressage that is bad?* 

Answer these please instead of going down some other random path.


*2. A horse using extra energy is not bad. If it is, You would get nowhere. Now you might as well say that humans doing anything with horses is bad because then they are making the horse use extra energy doing something other than live in a herd and survive. If I let my horse loose in a pasture or arena with jumps, I guarantee you that my horse would go over the jumps. My horse jumps out of pastures and fields too. Not all horses will do it, so is making lazy horses use extra energy is bad? Is there a double standard? When horses play, they use extra energy that is not needed for survival-so is playing bad? Some horses are more willing to please than others but that doesn't make training or asking a horse to use extra energy is bad. In this case, anything to do with horses and humans is bad. Then you can't go on and say it is the fault of dressage. *Answer this exact question ponyboy*: Why is a horse using extra energy on request of a human bad?

3. With the wrong person, anything is bad: a rope is bad, a halter is bad, a hand is bad, a foot is bad, a bitless bridle is bad. You can't just pick two specific things that you think are bad: bits and spurs. Why are they bad?- because the person misusing them is bad, not the things themselves. I am not saying everyone should use them. I think they are something to be worked up to once a person has full body control and balance on a horse. They should already be able to communicate without them, and then use them to enhance the communication.


4. I've done public debates so I know what I am about to say. If you change your opinion, no one will take you seriously. If the people you are arguing against make you change your opinion, then it really isn't a personal opinion-only a remark to win. When we pointed out about something you said that was wrong, you changed your opinion 180 degrees. That means, neither really were a true personal opinion were they? For example, when you said horses never collect by themselves we gave multiple instances when many horse do it. Instead of coming to an agreement, you changed your opinion 180 degrees and went on some other tangent. 


5. Riding and training horses isn't/shouldn't have anything to do with force-only guidance. Guidance as a leader, setting boundaries but not misusing power. You must listen to your horse. Horses channel your inner strength, or lack thereof, into outward expression. Horses are your best teacher. Respect is mutual. Trust is mutual. You can't only expect, you must give too. Most people think that because a horse is a horse they can force it into doing what they want. But in the end, that really never happens. Bowing down to your horse and giving it every right in the world doesn't work either. There must be a proper relationship. Maybe, if you are having a frustrating ride, instead of doing what you think you should do and bringing on harsher punishments, you should close your eyes and ask your horse. You'll get the answer. Last but not least, these are horses, not humans. Ponyboy, this is the one paragraph I wrote that I don't want you to rip apart. It has nothing to do with dressage, abuse, training or gadgets. 

Ponyboy, I don't want to fight. Why do you want to fight? If you want to help or change the horse world and the abuse within it, then crapping on people and fighting against them will only close both your mind and theirs and make a large block against helping the horses. Everyone needs to get over their ego and think.


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## Northern

The factor of the horse's "want-to": can a horse *enjoy* a human-taught activity to the point where it willingly offers to do it, even does it alone without being asked by a human?

If so, then a horse might enjoy the goal-less activity of going from A to B in all of the fancy ways of "dressage".

Horses have been known to jump on their own, cut cows on their own, & offer (unasked for) dressage movements that humans've taught them. Did these horses enjoy, or were they simply mentally conditioned to think that they should do the thing so that they could then eat?


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## SPhorsemanship

I think that many horses do actually want to please. I think they are much better animals than people give them credit for.


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## Northern

Rather than think in terms of a horse wanting to please me (why would he?), I think that all horses want to get along/adapt for survival.

eta: The horse can please me by complying with my wishes, but his doing so willingly means that I've proven to be a good leader to him, so my "request" makes sense to him, for his wellbeing.


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## ponyboy

Spyder;999445But guess what...I actually am busy elsewhere and my life does not revolve around this forum.
[/QUOTE said:


> You keep saying this kind of thing, and yet you keep posting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPhorsemanship said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ponyboy, I don't want to fight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why did you ask me all those questions?? Oh well, I will answer them anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPhorsemanship said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Answer these questions ponyboy*:
> 1) Is oneness, communication and collection with a completely willing horse(=horse wants to be doing what it is doing) bad?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly not. But here’s a question for you: How do you know if you’ve achieved oneness when you’re using a double bridle? How do you know the horse isn’t listening just because it’s easier than fighting the equipment?
> 
> 
> The only way to PROVE you’ve achieved oneness is by taking the bridle off, or at least using something a lot milder, and seeing if the horse still listens. Just like in any other experiment, to get a valid result you must eliminate all variables except one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2) Is it the true essence of dressage that is bad, or the ugly horse industry's interpretation of dressage that is bad?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The true essence of dressage is non-competitive and used to achieve a specific purpose. So in that respect, yes, it is the current horse industry’s interpretation of it that I have a problem with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SPhorsemanship said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Answer this exact question ponyboy*: Why is a horse using extra energy on request of a human bad?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First you’ll have to explain to me what you mean by “bad,” since I never actually used that word.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Northern said:
> 
> 
> 
> I now am very interested to find what the holes in ponyboy's argument are, having understood that no one has thus far proffered any real ones. Will you tell us, ponyboy, if we - or should I say, I? - can't figure it out? You may pm me if you don't wish to post it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think that would derail the thread at this point, but maybe later.
Click to expand...


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

To the comment above about using a milder means rather than a double bridle...that would be why double bridles are not allowed until the higher levels of dressage. only mild snaffles in the lower levels...you have to get the true basics and communication down first or you are punching holes in you're training. 

I personally have never ridden in a double bridle because my horse and I are still working on that oneness. I also don't use a dressage whip or spurs and can and have ridden dressage in just a halter and lead rope
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

To the comment above about using a milder means rather than a double bridle...that would be why double bridles are not allowed until the higher levels of dressage. only mild snaffles in the lower levels...you have to get the true basics and communication down first or you are punching holes in you're training. 

I personally have never ridden in a double bridle because my horse and I are still working on that oneness. I also don't use a dressage whip or spurs and can and have ridden dressage in just a halter and lead rope. And I show at the low levels...and don't see what I'm doing as bad for my horse. She seems pretty content to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

Sorry for the double post...on my cell and hit submit too fast! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spyder

ponyboy said:


> You keep saying this kind of thing, and yet you keep posting.



What I post or where I post is both irrelevant and in this reference *sounds a bit stalkerish to me.*

I left this thread because arguing with someone who basis for their posts is built on assumptions seen through rose colored glasses and talking to people like them is a waste of my time.


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## Northern

Yes, seems backwards that a double bridle, spurs & crop would be needed for the more highly advanced/educated horse: oxymoronic.


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## Northern

I'd love to know what Merlin's "want-to" is in connection with going into the bullring. He can't, it seems to me, have any desire to do so.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

Northern said:


> Yes, seems backwards that a double bridle, spurs & crop would be needed for the more highly advanced/educated horse: oxymoronic.


Whips are not actually allowed at the upper levels when in a CDI (international event) or any qualifying test. Double bridles and spurs are so the rider can use a very small aid to communicate with the horse.

See in dressage, the goal is not to flop around on horseback (unlike Julie Goodnight) using large aids and generally expecting the horse to just magically know what you are asking them to do through the flop. The quieter you sit and the smaller aids you use - it's amazing how much more responsive the horse gets. Dressage is very difficult for the rider and one must be very disciplined to sit correctly with as little movement as possible to allow the horse to work, and to have quiet aids.


And to answer the "is the horse willing because of training or their nature?" question - while there is no way to know for sure, after 4 years of dressage training my horse still can't wait to have the bit in his mouth and offers all of the movements to the best of his ability. This is enough to let me know that he is willing of his own accord and happy in his work.





I highly suggest you go take a dressage lesson or at least read a book about the sport before you go harping on it. Your lack of knowledge about the sport and how the horses are trained, along with your willingness to argue about it is astounding. If you want to **** on people about using curbs, head on over to the Western board where horses are put in a curb at 5 (not saying anything bad about western disciplines or curbs as I have no issue with their correct use). Dressage horses aren't required to be in one until they are at a certain level, not by age. And the headset or frame thing, that's just called bad riding and has nothing to do with dressage.


----------



## Starlite

ponyboy said:


> Consider this fair warning though: If you don't like having your viewpoints challenged, don't get involved with me in the future. I'm not the "can't we all just get along?" type. IMO having intellectual debates is what the Internet is for.


reading this is like chewing foil. Go be adversarial somewhere else.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

Starlite said:


> reading this is like chewing foil. Go be adversarial somewhere else.


Lol how did I miss that post?? Thank you!

Actually ponyboy, the internet is for porn.
Statistics prove the obvious: The Internet is for porn
Just hang out in /b/ for like 10 minutes and it becomes blatantly obvious.


----------



## Northern

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Whips are not actually allowed at the upper levels when in a CDI (international event) or any qualifying test._ That __makes sense to me._ Double bridles and spurs are so the rider can use a very small aid to communicate with the horse. _I don't see how two bits in a horse's mouth is a small aid. Same with a sharp set of spurs._
> 
> The quieter you sit and the smaller aids you use - it's amazing how much more responsive the horse gets. _I know about quietness & invisible aids; that is not in question: I'll put it this way_: *since*_ a horse will respond to the rider of sufficient expertise without a double bridle or spurs, is it not proof that the rider is of insufficient expertise when he uses either/both? _
> 
> And to answer the "is the horse willing because of training or their nature?" question - while there is no way to know for sure, after 4 years of dressage training my horse still can't wait to have the bit in his mouth and offers all of the movements to the best of his ability. This is enough to let me know that he is willing of his own accord and happy in his work._This answer is helpful because it comes from your experience & is given without condescension; thank you._


_In answer to your last paragraph, you need to quit making assumptions about my knowing nothing about horsemanship, about my basically being nothing more than an argumentative boor on this thread. I give you no reason to accuse me of all of that. Wanting to know & asking questions & so on is NOT argumentativeness._

_Anabel, if you insist upon seeing my posts as ludicrous, please don't answer to them. I'd be happy to not address you further, also, if that is your wish._


----------



## Spyder

Northern said:


> _Anabel, I'd be happy to not address you further, also, if that is your wish._


Sounds like a plan to me.


----------



## Northern

It's certainly courteous to allow Anebel to speak for herself.

However, since you joined in, Spyder: if you feel the same way, & whoever else on this forum feels the same way, please simply let me know. Feel free to pm me. It's such a time & nerve saver to call it quits when needed!

Re: this thread, I joined the discussion because I saw ponyboy being bashed unfairly AND I agreed with his/her points, mainly. Yet, if ponyboy has left the building, so all then turn on me, there's no point continuing this discussion. 

The only way that it'll be worthwhile to keep posting here is for everyone to bring a constructive attitude to the table.


----------



## lacyloo

*As I sit in my thinking corner* --->:think:

Why don't Northern and Ponyboy post their own horses in training and explain the methods they use? 

Its a serious question... I personally would love to see the difference in what y'all are talking about.


----------



## Spyder

Northern said:


> It's certainly courteous to allow Anebel to speak for herself.


I thought so too.



> However, since you joined in, Spyder: if you feel the same way, & whoever else on this forum feels the same way, please simply let me know. Feel free to pm me. It's such a time & nerve saver to call it quits when needed!


Never been one to post in secret PMs. I expressed my feelings in post 82 and 86. 



> Re: this thread, I joined the discussion because I saw ponyboy being bashed unfairly AND I agreed with his/her points, mainly. Yet, if ponyboy has left the building, so all then turn on me, there's no point continuing this discussion.


Somehow I doubt those were your reasons for joining but whatever.

The only people somewhat bashed on this thread are Anebel, JDI and myself...mainly because we know the type of "discussion" that ponyboy et all wants and he can certainly go over to Ultimate dressage where they spilt hairs and seem to have all day to completely bore most readers. You may find those 20-30 page long " I know more than you" threads quite interesting.

I have been on this and other forums too long to get drawn into one sided debates especially about dressage there most readers come out from reading them thinking...geeze dressage really all about a bunch of bored "experts" and "wannabes" that do nothing but arguing over a picture where the poll may or may not be 1 inch too high or too low.



> The only way that it'll be worthwhile to keep posting here is for everyone to bring a constructive attitude to the table.


It becomes unconstructive when we seem to have one that displays stalkerish behavior and others that feel people walking away from wanting to put up wasted information/opinions is a sign of an "attitude".

The most mature thing one can do when faced with this sort of personalities ( *please select from the link below to fine which one you are*) is to walk away and let them rant themselves out. If they feel they have "won" or "showed those people" by having the smart ones leave them fine ...more power to them for they can stay deluded in that fact if it makes them feel better.

Here is a little fun site for those that may not know which "personality" they belong to.

Internet Flame Warriors.

Flame Warriors Home


----------



## Kayty

Wow, out come the PETA activists!!


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

Northern you seem unable to comprehend the basis physics of the action of a bit or spurs, so maybe you should pick up a physics textbook while you're out looking for one about dressage as well.
If you put the same amount of pressure over a smaller area you are creating a larger pressure gradient. So to get the same pressure gradient achievable with a spur with just a boot you need to use an amount of pressure equal to the amount used with the spur multiplied by the ratio of the area of the boot over the area of the spur. My crude estimation is about 10 times the pressure. If you think it takes a good rider to flop around and put 10 lbs of pressure on a horse with a boot and get a response, imagine using a tiny metal thing to put 1 lb of pressure on the horse to get the same response. It's tough to do even without flopping around!
And about the bit, same thing.

But of course all dressage riders are tiny peons compared to your horse training prowess. I would also love to see something you've trained. Come do a trail class against my poorly trained, over ridden dressage horse sometime. Because dressage is useless, right? Purely for the competition ring. 

I highly doubt either you or ponyboy have developed the finesse required to ride in a curb or with spurs successfully. So you assume that if your horse stops and rears or bucks with them on it happens to all horses and you fail to look to the rider. Oh and to both of you until you show me your PSG horses I'm going to assume all I want about your training and riding abilities and knowledge. Don't bring a theoretical squirt gun to a pistol fight. 

$0.02
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ponyboy

Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> I personally have never ridden in a double bridle because my horse and I are still working on that oneness. I also don't use a dressage whip or spurs and can and have ridden dressage in just a halter and lead rope
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



That is nice to hear.




~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Whips are not actually allowed at the upper levels when in a CDI (international event) or any qualifying test. Double bridles and spurs are so the rider can use a very small aid to communicate with the horse.


Yeah, I get that the aids are (supposed to be) small. But the equipment is still there. You still don’t know if you would be able to achieve “oneness” without it. 



I also know that whips are not allowed in competition, but they can still be used in training. They are called dressage whips after all. Did you know that nose bands which fasten in front of the bit were once frowned upon in dressage? They were considered mechanical aids – crutches – just like martingales. Now you hardly see a horse in a snaffle bit without them. *Why did that change, do you think?*




~*~anebel~*~ said:


> I highly doubt either you or ponyboy have developed the finesse required to ride in a curb or with spurs successfully.



I have used spurs, without any rearing or bucking involved, thank you very much. 




~*~anebel~*~ said:


> I highly suggest you go take a dressage lesson or at least read a book about the sport before you go harping on it.



Of course you would just assume I had done neither of those things. I’m not the first person to have tried dressage and become disillusioned with it. Why, a few months ago someone in the Eventing forum was proposing that the increased focus on dressage was the reason why more horses are having accidents on the cross-country course. And you know what? Nobody shot her down for saying that. (Will see if I can find the thread). 



What dressage looks like is ballet. What it felt like to me was trying to bend the horse into shapes it didn’t want to go into. (Was it a highly trained horse? No, but all horses start from zero). And for what? Just so you can say you can apparently (well, that and win some trophies and prize money).


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

Possibly because some of us are able to keep our issues about other sports disciplines and training methods. If its not abuse it shouldn't be an issue. Also please remember that evening is a seperate sport from dressage.

Would love to hear your opinions on the usefulness of all other sport horses. By your logic anything trained for the purpose competition (ie evening, reining, etc) is useless. By your logic we should all quit our jobs, not have hobbies and just reproduce because energy expenditure for any other purpose is useless, right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Levade

xXEventerXx said:


> Ok, so im just going to explain that dressage was started years ago when the soldiers at war in there spare time taught the horses to do different movements.
> 
> The definition of dressage is the art or method of training a horse in obedience and in precision of movement.
> 
> ...so really there is no specific movements for it. unless your talking about dressage shows..ect


 
Exactly!!


----------



## Allison Finch

Geeezz.....with the addition of Northern, this thread now has two trolls. people who argue just for the fun of arguing.


----------



## Spyder

Allison Finch said:


> Geeezz.....with the addition of Northern, this thread now has two trolls. people who argue just for the fun of arguing.



At least one of them is this personality.

Tireless Rebutter


----------



## Allison Finch

LOL!! Good one Spyder!


----------



## Kayty

Hahaha I'm impressed Spyder... sums our dear flamer up perfectly


----------



## lacyloo




----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

Hahahahahaha but they're so cyoot what do you mean cannot save? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dusty1228

lacyloo said:


>


:rofl::rofl::rofl: After reading this entire thread, yes ENTIRE ( I was supposed to be fixing my laptop, shhhhh!) I need something stronger than popcorn. And possibly something for a headache, too?


----------



## Northern

Dusty1228 said:


> After reading this entire thread, ...I need something stronger than popcorn. And possibly something for a headache, too?


Ditto. I'm glad that I joined the "discussion" for the reasons that I did (explained in earlier post), but really, Anebel, et al, your cyberspace bullying & resorting to personal attacks is from the dark side. From your posts, I feel as though you hate me, even though you don't know me, & this makes me very uncomfortable, naturally. The same for you, Allison, for calling me a troll. If I'd behaved like a troll, you'd have reason, but I haven't, so this is too much hostility for me to want to continue to contend with.

I do hope that you give your horses a "feel" that's completely different, for their sakes.

Ponyboy, feel free to pm me as to the holes in your argument; I am interested to know what they are. I thought of the factor of the horse's "want-to", but that's about it.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

You're welcome. Thanks for coming into a thread and attacking my sport and way of life with seemingly little prior knowledge of it. Glad I could return the favor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Allison Finch

Northern, my comment is the accumulated experience from more than this thread. I'm sorry I offended you, but my experience with you is that you go out of your way to offend others and assume an overall argumentative attitude. I just figured this thread was going to head down that same path (as if it already wasn't with ponyboy).


----------



## Kayty

When you venture into a thread, with the pure intention of attacking a particular discipline, you have to expect that people will fight back. You do not see the 'dressage members' on here, going into threads regarding other disciplines, and bash them, stating that they are cruel, un necessary and so on. 
Each and every person is entitled to their opinion, and yes, ponyboy and northern your opinions are valid and have been noted. However, opinions can be given, without going down the path of creaming blue murder about someone's passion. 
Like Anebel, and obviously Spyder, dressage is a very big part of my life, most of my income is put towards my horses. If my horses are not in the best condition they can possibly be, I make a big effort to ensure that that issue is rectified. My horses are paddocked for as much as possible, currently 24/7. They work one hour, 6 days a week, they other 23 hours they are out grazing, and trotting around between clumps of grass, charging around their their paddock mates and so on. 
When I want to ride, I just call and any of my guys will come running over, stand quietly to be tacked up, and eagerly work for me. My little WB that I recently took on for example, was previously a nervous wreck, could not deal with any pressure being placed upon him under saddle and due to this, was essentially left to mope in a stable and small yard, for 12 months. 
After only a couple of months with me, he is spritely, happy and very healthy. He is willing to work, and he tries his heart out. 

So please, do not try to bash us for enjoying our horses, and striving to keep them in peak condition physically AND mentally! This is our lifestyle, our passion and for some of us, our living. Yes, there are some in dressage, or ANY discipline, that abuse the 'power' we have over our horses. And this is sad, yes, some unfortunate horses ARE forced into various work, but this is not everyone. You cannot put everyone in the same basket. 

Ponyboy and Northern, I would strongly suggest you do your research a little more, and stop generalising, before coming into threads purely to bash people's lifestyle and passion. It gets you nowhere.


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## AlexS

ponyboy said:


> Did you know that nose bands which fasten in front of the bit were once frowned upon in dressage? They were considered mechanical aids – crutches – just like martingales. Now you hardly see a horse in a snaffle bit without them. *Why did that change, do you think?*


How would you feel about a horse doing dressage in a regular nose band, with a 2 finger gap and a snaffle? Would it still be cruel or wrong? If not over forced on the poll?

How do you feel about a running martingale?



Northern said:


> your cyberspace bullying & resorting to personal attacks is from the dark side.


So anything against you is cyberspace bullying? Really? As you bully a lot yourself and shove your ideas down others throats. Is this natural? Is this what your guy would choose? 

I understand from previous posts of yours that you are deeply religious, I have respect for this. So does Jesus not believe in free choice? If so, why do you ram your NH choices so hard? Surely we all have free will, and don't need your bashing. 

Free will is free will, regardless of whether it is in church or horse training. So give it a rest.


----------



## Northern

Allison Finch said:


> ...my experience with you is that you go out of your way to offend others and assume an overall argumentative attitude. I just figured this thread was going to head down that same path (as if it already wasn't with ponyboy).


 You, Allison, & Anabel, & Alex accuse me of vicious personal attack, & all I can do in the face of this is say that that was never my intention. Yet, you accuse ponyboy of the same, before I joined the "talk", & I could see very plainly that ponyboy was not attacking you, either! Most curious, & most unfortunate!



Kayty said:


> When you venture into a thread, with the pure intention of attacking a particular discipline, *Ok, Kayty is with the 3 A's, in their accusation. *
> 
> When I want to ride, I just call and any of my guys will come running over, stand quietly to be tacked up, and eagerly work for me. *Wonderful!* My little WB that I recently took on for example, was previously a nervous wreck, could not deal with any pressure being placed upon him under saddle and due to this, was essentially left to mope in a stable and small yard, for 12 months.
> After only a couple of months with me, he is spritely, happy and very healthy. He is willing to work, and he tries his heart out. * Wonderful! My heart fills to read this, & I am NOT being facetious!*
> 
> ... coming into threads purely to bash people's lifestyle and passion. *Neither* *ponyboy nor I did*!





AlexS said:


> I understand from previous posts of yours that you are deeply religious, I have respect for this.* Alex, you need to tell me what posts of mine you "understand" that I'm "deeply religious" from, first of all; how am I to answer to that without knowing to what words of mine you refer? Yet, in a nutshell, I'll say that I never think of myself as "deeply religious" or even plain old religious. However, I don't think it's a good idea for me to bring Jesus into this trainwreck, do you?  *.


I do love the sharing of "actual" experiences, by Anebel & now Kayty. It's just unfortunate that ponyboy & I are accused of destructive bashing toward the rest of you.


----------



## Allison Finch

Northern, you are the one who does the attacks, and then complains when people fuss back at you.

Ponyboy has a very narrow view of dressage and extremely strong opinions, many of which are simply incorrect, IMHO. They seem to enjoy stating fairly extreme opinions, maybe just to get a rise out of people? Ponyboy just will not absorb what anyone says and continues a strong attack on dressage.

Neither attitude is likely to get much acknowlegement.


----------



## Northern

Fine, Allison, I'm happy to have it be "official" that you got in the last word, albeit by being redundant in your accusations. 

ponyboy & Northern: we aren't attacking anyone here.

AAAK: YES, YOU ARE!

The End


----------



## ponyboy

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> By your logic we should all quit our jobs, not have hobbies and just reproduce because energy expenditure for any other purpose is useless, right?



Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Kayty said:


> When you venture into a thread, with the pure intention of attacking a particular discipline, you have to expect that people will fight back.



Fighting back is fine. Personal attacks are not fighting back. They are an attempt to change the subject. 



And you know what? (are you listening, ANEBEL?) People have attacked my favorite discipline. A lot. 



I love gaited horses. But I had the courage to listen to what the detractors said about them. I learned enough about equine physiology to understand that they were right (in some cases). And I have the courage now to admit that I was wrong. It has changed my beliefs…. and will change my practices if I ever get a chance to be around gaited horses again. It means that if I ever get to buy a gaited horse, I will drive 10 hours away instead of one, plus learn a whole new style of riding beforehand, to be able to do the right thing. 





AlexS said:


> How would you feel about a horse doing dressage in a regular nose band, with a 2 finger gap and a snaffle? Would it still be cruel or wrong? If not over forced on the poll?



As long as the rider was not hauling on the reins, I think that would be enough proof that the horse was content with it. I realize not everybody will ever be able to go bridles…. I just mentioned that because I find it funny how riders who are concerned with achieving “oneness” don’t factor the strength of the equipment they’re using into that equation. I also think that not using the mildest equipment possible goes against the original philosophy of dressage. 





AlexS said:


> How do you feel about a running martingale?



I think they’re overused in show jumping right now, that’s for sure. I remember watching a competition online where one horse was not wearing a martingale and the commentator was freaked out about it. It was like he expected the horse would go berserk because of it! When I first started riding, even martingales were discouraged.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

And so that gives you what right to come in here and attack dressage?

I can go ride my horse in 6" spurs, a high ported, long shanked curb bit and a driving whip and still have oneness with my horse. It's not about what you put on the horse, its about how you use it. A good rider and horseperson is able to distinguish this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> And so that gives you what right to come in here and attack dressage?
> 
> I can go ride my horse in 6" spurs, a high ported, long shanked curb bit and a driving whip and still have oneness with my horse. It's not about what you put on the horse, its about how you use it. A good rider and horseperson is able to distinguish this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:clap:


----------



## starlinestables

This thread was highly entertaining!


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand

ponyboy said:


> Why, a few months ago *someone in the Eventing forum was proposing that the increased focus on dressage was the reason why more horses are having accidents* on the cross-country course. And you know what? Nobody shot her down for saying that. (Will see if I can find the thread).
> 
> What dressage looks like is ballet. What it felt like to me was trying to bend the horse into shapes it didn’t want to go into. (Was it a highly trained horse? No, but all horses start from zero). *And for what? Just so you can say you can apparently* (well, that and win some trophies and prize money).


Ok sorry if this derails us further but as an Eventer, I can tell you that if MORE riders focused on dressage there would be LESS accidents IMO. I have always been taught that jumping is "dressage with speed bumps"! :lol: Dressage makes the horse more balanced and sits them back on their hind end so that they CAN jump more effectively and get themselves out of any bad spots when maneuvering a cross country course. 

So as for the "for what? just so you can?" well, for me as an Eventer, yes of course it's about my horse and I competing but the MAIN reason I love dressage is because it takes my horse who is very on the forehand and built downhill naturally and teaches her to sit back and have some self carriage, making it safer for us on course so we can go have fun together (she LOVES cross country jumping)


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> It's not about what you put on the horse, its about how you use it. A good rider and horseperson is able to distinguish this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:clap:Absolutely! I think this point has been made in MANY threads, esp the ones talking about bits. In the hands of an inexperienced rider, you can cause damage with NO spurs, whips, really no TACK if you don't know what you're doing. Getting on a horse completely tackless and kicking the crap out of their sides will cause more harm than Anebel's light touch of her spur! If I take a pen and barely touch it to your arm it probably won't bug you, but if I take my hand and smack you with it, doubt you'll like it that much. :wink:


----------



## Spastic_Dove

Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> Ok sorry if this derails us further but as an Eventer, I can tell you that if MORE riders focused on dressage there would be LESS accidents IMO. I have always been taught that jumping is "dressage with speed bumps"! :lol: Dressage makes the horse more balanced and sits them back on their hind end so that they CAN jump more effectively and get themselves out of any bad spots when maneuvering a cross country course.
> 
> So as for the "for what? just so you can?" well, for me as an Eventer, yes of course it's about my horse and I competing but the MAIN reason I love dressage is because it takes my horse who is very on the forehand and built downhill naturally and teaches her to sit back and have some self carriage, making it safer for us on course so we can go have fun together (she LOVES cross country jumping)




Going to come out of my lurking status here for a second. I believe it was MIE (could be wrong) who was discussing a article by Jimmy Wofford. Taking it out of context doesn't really get the point. 

It was not claiming that dressage is not essential for cross country/jumping because it certainly is.


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand

Spastic_Dove said:


> Going to come out of my lurking status here for a second. I believe it was MIE (could be wrong) who was discussing a article by Jimmy Wofford. Taking it out of context doesn't really get the point.
> 
> It was not claiming that dressage is not essential for cross country/jumping because it certainly is.


Thanks for clearing that up! yeah I know MIE and I know she would never advocate for less dressage principles and claim THOSE were causing accidents. You're right, had to have been taken out of context...where IS MIE anyway? I'm sure she'd have a lot to add to this thread! :wink:


----------



## Spastic_Dove

Probably hiding so her head doesn't explode...


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## Northern

starlinestables said:


> This thread was highly entertaining!


 Yes, one man's trash - or should I say "trial" - is another man's treasure! 



Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> ...well, for me as an Eventer, yes of course it's about my horse and I competing but the MAIN reason I love dressage is because it takes my horse who is very on the forehand and built downhill naturally and teaches her to sit back and have some self carriage, making it safer for us on course so we can go have fun together (she LOVES cross country jumping)


Your reasons for practicing dressage are sound (pun intended): dressage, which means training, is intended for developing the horse to use itself optimally under a rider, which, in turn, lengthens the horse's life & serviceability.

From what I gather, ponyboy was saying this, as well; your use of dressage training is with the goal of the horse's development FOR CC, NOT as an end in itself (which has given rise to all sorts of deviations from correct going,(human predilictions for fads & error being what they are) & therefore has produced the opposite of the original intention - UNsoundness, various levels of cruelty to the horse, & UNhappy horses).

Btw, I find it lovely that your mare adores CC & that you're able to provide her with that enjoyment!


----------



## MIEventer

I'm here  lol. I've been reading this thread since it started, trust me  

The discussion in the Eventing Section was about the LONG format and the SHORT format. The reason why accidents are occuring is because the long format was taken away, which was installed to seperated the horses who CAN do the XC phase, from the horses who CANNOT. 

What I was saying, was that due to the new format, dressage has become the most important factor to the sport, when it shouldn't be. But yes, guess what - dressage still is a part of the 3 phases...but it shouldn't be the most important. 

You bet your bippy that* Jumping is dressage with speed bumps -* it isn't the fences that matter, but it is what you do between them that makes that fence a success or not.

The issue is, is that because Dressage has become the most important factor to the sport due to the long format being taken away, is that people are now taking dressage horses and trying to convert them into becoming eventers - instead of taking an eventer, and installing the importancies of dressage into their daily training to make them that much better when they are representing our sport. Also, that the short format is not allowing an Eventing Mount to think for themselves, to take control when needed and to cover their riders ****. The short format has taken that natural instinc away from them.

I POO POO THE SHORT FORMAT! GET RID OF IT! BRING BACK THE LONG! Return our mounts to being the eventers they were origionally. 

An Olympic Dressage Mount, is not an Olympic Eventing Mount. An Olympic Dressage Mount does not belong out on the Rolex Course, where an Olympic Eventer does not belong in the Olympic Dressage Ring. 

Lets look at GP Jumpers - the majority of those competators spend more time doing dressage, then they do jumping. Why? Because jumping is dressage with speed bumps. Majority of those GP Level Mounts, can do minimally level 3 dressage, that is how important it is.

Those mounts aren't going Olympic Level in the dressage world, because they don't need to. Thats not their career, their career is jumping - but the point is, is that dressage makes a more rounded horse, to make them that much more capeable of doing their sport and representing their sport to the best of their abilities.

Same with Eventers. Yes, dressage is important - it is 1 of the 3 phases, but it shouldn't "be all and end all" of the sport, because it's not their job to go Olympic Level USDF...their job is to be EVENTERS.


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand

Yay well said!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Northern

Hurrah!, *MI Eventer*! Thank you for rounding out the point beautifully, with your information on the proper place of dressage in eventing!


----------



## Ray MacDonald

I feel like I just went in circles from reading this whole thread.... So what was the problem the intire time??

And nice link Spyder! Very funny!


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

Ray MacDonald said:


> I feel like I just went in circles from reading this whole thread.... So what was the problem the intire time??
> 
> And nice link Spyder! Very funny!


The original video is not actually dressage, just a compilation of tricks.
Enter trolls and begin discussion of the usefulness and relevance of dressage. Yay discipline bashing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ray MacDonald

Ah, right! Thanks 

Well, as for the video.... I do remember they did a piaff but not as well done as a true dressage trained horse. The whole video in general wasn't dressage persay.. NOT a dressage competition nor modern dressage. As said before lack of engaged hindquarters. 

But the whole discussion.. it is pretty ignorant... 

My opinion of dressage is the basics of training, something as simple as walking or trotting to a more collected cantering pirouette or a correct piaff. 

Is it piaff or Piaf?


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## Northern

For the record, I didn't look at the video.

I posted in response to ponyboy being bashed & my wanting to tell "AAAK" to stop, & to tell ponyboy that I understood her points & was interested in anything that he/she had to say, & that I also agreed with what he/she had said so far, in the main.


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## Spastic_Dove

Yay! MIE, I'm glad you came in and explained that far better than I could ever hope to right now


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## Kayty

Ray MacDonald said:


> Ah, right! Thanks
> 
> Well, as for the video.... I do remember they did a piaff but not as well done as a true dressage trained horse. The whole video in general wasn't dressage persay.. NOT a dressage competition nor modern dressage. As said before lack of engaged hindquarters.
> 
> But the whole discussion.. it is pretty ignorant...
> 
> My opinion of dressage is the basics of training, something as simple as walking or trotting to a more collected cantering pirouette or a correct piaff.
> 
> *Is it piaff or Piaf*?


Piaffe


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## sarahver

MIEventer said:


> I'm here  lol. I've been reading this thread since it started, trust me
> 
> The discussion in the Eventing Section was about the LONG format and the SHORT format. The reason why accidents are occuring is because the long format was taken away, which was installed to seperated the horses who CAN do the XC phase, from the horses who CANNOT.
> 
> What I was saying, was that due to the new format, dressage has become the most important factor to the sport, when it shouldn't be. But yes, guess what - dressage still is a part of the 3 phases...but it shouldn't be the most important.
> 
> You bet your bippy that* Jumping is dressage with speed bumps -* it isn't the fences that matter, but it is what you do between them that makes that fence a success or not.
> 
> The issue is, is that because Dressage has become the most important factor to the sport due to the long format being taken away, is that people are now taking dressage horses and trying to convert them into becoming eventers - instead of taking an eventer, and installing the importancies of dressage into their daily training to make them that much better when they are representing our sport. Also, that the short format is not allowing an Eventing Mount to think for themselves, to take control when needed and to cover their riders ****. The short format has taken that natural instinc away from them.
> 
> I POO POO THE SHORT FORMAT! GET RID OF IT! BRING BACK THE LONG! Return our mounts to being the eventers they were origionally.
> 
> An Olympic Dressage Mount, is not an Olympic Eventing Mount. An Olympic Dressage Mount does not belong out on the Rolex Course, where an Olympic Eventer does not belong in the Olympic Dressage Ring.
> 
> Lets look at GP Jumpers - the majority of those competators spend more time doing dressage, then they do jumping. Why? Because jumping is dressage with speed bumps. Majority of those GP Level Mounts, can do minimally level 3 dressage, that is how important it is.
> 
> Those mounts aren't going Olympic Level in the dressage world, because they don't need to. Thats not their career, their career is jumping - but the point is, is that dressage makes a more rounded horse, to make them that much more capeable of doing their sport and representing their sport to the best of their abilities.
> 
> Same with Eventers. Yes, dressage is important - it is 1 of the 3 phases, but it shouldn't "be all and end all" of the sport, because it's not their job to go Olympic Level USDF...their job is to be EVENTERS.


You know how people always say 'I wish there was a like button on this forum?' Well this post made me wish there was a LOVE button on this forum.

Bring back roads and tracks. Those **** phases served a very important purpose. In addition to the EXCELLENT post by MIE they warmed the horse up before the steeple chase and prepared them for XC.

As a somewhat one eyed TB lover it makes me MAAAAAAD :evil::evil::evil: that the dicipline that is most suited to TB's has now been changed so that Warmbloods are just as suited and if not better.

I have nothing against Warmbloods. But the world is not exactly overpopulated with unwanted WB's now then is it? Links in to my huge beef with the racing industry overproducing TB's. Sure TB's can do well in dressage, they make great jumpers but they should _rule_ the sport of eventing by a long shot. Most of the Aussie Olympic eventing team is made up of ex racers. As it should be.

At least in the long format TB's could truly dominate the sport, giving thousands of ex racies a second shot at ownership. Sure they will still be prevalent in eventing but it is sad to see them slowly being displaced by WB's and other breeds.

Maybe we should shorten endurance rides to 5 miles so the TB's can take over the Arabian forte. Oh and stop holding any races in the desert, it just won't do. :roll: Unlikely right?

*steps off soapbox*

Prob should go watch the vid now I guess.


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## sarahver

sarahver said:


> Most of the Aussie Olympic eventing team is made up of ex racers. As it should be.


Small edit: I forgetski that it has been a few years since I competed. Most of the Aussie Olympic team *was* made up of ex racers. I don't know what the current situation is.


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## Kayty

Yep very very true Sarah. And our Aussie eventing team, being made up of ottb's, was VERY successful. I know Rebel Morrow got her boy from the doggers yard and he ended up being one of the most successful eventers Australia has produced. 

Although I am a warmblood fan - because of my discpline - I am in 100% agreement that eventing has been turned to suit the warmbloods now more so than tb's. It seems that every second person now has a wb eventer rather than the good old tb.


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## ponyboy

My RL has become quite busy, so I'm just going to respond to one comment:



~*~anebel~*~ said:


> It's not about what you put on the horse, its about how you use it.


Well in that case, there shouldn't be a problem with doing Grand Prix dressage in an eggbutt snaffle and a bridle without a tight noseband, should there? If the rider's skill is the only thing that matters, I guess we only have dozens of different kinds of bits for decoration?

You know who else I've heard use the line "It's not about what you put on the horse?" Big Lick Tennessee Walker people.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

You're right. I school PSG in a snaffle, however, as has been aforementioned, the aids become lighter as the tack becomes 'stronger'. This shows the rider is trained and able to be light, because dressage is not just about the horse. Plus I doubt you've ever actually ridden one of those tests, let alone decently. But after 7 minutes of riding HARD and complete focus, even with the tack allowing you to make the aids extremely small, by that last centerline you are **** near to on your last breath. The tack is also traditional, while I know this doesn't mean a lot to you, it is important to the heritage of the sport and when used correctly is no harsher than a snaffle. Society thinks men in skirts is abnormal, but a Scottish man in a kilt is not laughed at. Traditional dress.
And where did this tight noseband thing come from? Again with the assumptions and discipline bashing.

And an nh person told me the best way to treat a splint pop is to hit it with a rubber mallet and then apply tea tree oil. Just saying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ray MacDonald

Kayty said:


> Piaffe


Thanks! Darn spell check sucks....


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## Ray MacDonald

Northern said:


> For the record, I didn't look at the video.
> 
> I posted in response to ponyboy being bashed & my wanting to tell "AAAK" to stop, & to tell ponyboy that I understood her points & was interested in anything that he/she had to say, & that I also agreed with what he/she had said so far, in the main.


 
Well "AAAK" and MIE (Others too) Are very smart and know about dressage, I would like to know where you and ponyboy stand in the world of dressage.


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## Northern

"AAAK" & MIE are not in agreement. Re-read for pb's & my opinions.


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## Spyder

ponyboy said:


> Well in that case, there shouldn't be a problem with doing Grand Prix dressage in an eggbutt snaffle and a bridle without a tight noseband, should there? If the rider's skill is the only thing that matters, I guess we only have dozens of different kinds of bits for decoration?



Do a search for _spirithorse8_ in this very subject.

Maybe you want to join his endeavors to get the FEI to do away with bridles and such.

Your argument is empty as it is not the riders that determine the equipment requirements ( but they can certainly put in their input ) so why don't you just toddle along and put your bashing ( _and stalking_) energies to a use that will be more joyful for you.

Personally I have seen and read your type on many forums and join threads for the sole purpose of creating discord and disruption.

Take a look here...Tireless Rebutter for you certainly fit the bill.:wink:


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## equiniphile

Spyder said:


> Do a search for _spirithorse8_ in this very subject.
> 
> Maybe you want to join his endeavors to get the FEI to do away with bridles and such.


 :lol: Sorry, made me chuckle.

While we're on the subject though, may I ask why dressage whips are used? I'm honestly curious; I've never used one myself, but I really am clueless as to their purpose. I've seen high-level trainers use them on YouTube and such, and was wondering what they communicate that seat and leg aids can't.


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## Northern

Round 2, anyone?


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## sarahver

Eeeeek, unsubscribing!!!

Have fun all :rofl:


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## ~*~anebel~*~

They are an extension of the leg. I use my tassle just to flick the horse's quarters when I want more engagement behind. This instead of kicking and disrupting the balance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kayty

*waits for northern and ponyboy to come charging in with how cruel a touch of the whip behind the leg is... kicking is MUCH kinder *


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## MyBoyPuck

:hide:


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## Northern

*says very, very quietly, with a very pleasant facial expression*, "Oh, no, I would never say that kicking is kinder than a flick of a whip tassle. Perhaps I didn't make myself understood: I don't believe in _kicking_ the horse." 

"I just couldn't leave that misconception about me on this thread; but with that said, I've got to run along! It's been an interesting threadl!" *leaves the building*


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## MIEventer

sarahver said:


> You know how people always say 'I wish there was a like button on this forum?' Well this post made me wish there was a LOVE button on this forum.
> 
> Bring back roads and tracks. Those **** phases served a very important purpose. In addition to the EXCELLENT post by MIE they warmed the horse up before the steeple chase and prepared them for XC.
> 
> As a somewhat one eyed TB lover it makes me MAAAAAAD :evil::evil::evil: that the dicipline that is most suited to TB's has now been changed so that Warmbloods are just as suited and if not better.
> 
> I have nothing against Warmbloods. But the world is not exactly overpopulated with unwanted WB's now then is it? Links in to my huge beef with the racing industry overproducing TB's. Sure TB's can do well in dressage, they make great jumpers but they should _rule_ the sport of eventing by a long shot. Most of the Aussie Olympic eventing team is made up of ex racers. As it should be.
> 
> At least in the long format TB's could truly dominate the sport, giving thousands of ex racies a second shot at ownership. Sure they will still be prevalent in eventing but it is sad to see them slowly being displaced by WB's and other breeds.
> 
> Maybe we should shorten endurance rides to 5 miles so the TB's can take over the Arabian forte. Oh and stop holding any races in the desert, it just won't do. :roll: Unlikely right?
> 
> *steps off soapbox*
> 
> Prob should go watch the vid now I guess.


TB's still do rule the sport, there are many TB's out there still representing our sport to the best of their abilities and doing well. I am not so sure about WB's now taking over, but I am aware of Sport Horses taking over...those TB X's.

Many Eventers want that TB spirit, but they want a mount with a thicker bone, so they started to mix the TB with breeds that are "thicker". So they still get that speedy, spirited, go getter horse that you find in the TB, with a thicker bone so they don't break down as quickly as you find the thin boned TB's do. 

Drafty types do not belong out there - so the mixes couldn't be too "heavy". 

I really like the 3/4 TB X's - the Irish Sport Horse I would say most definately...but it has to be a well bred Irish Sport Horse. I've seen too heavy lines out there - the barn I was previously at bred what is supposed to be an Irish Sport Horse...but they are more like Irish Draughts instead. 

But - back to the 3/4 X's - I've seen 3/4 TB X Dutch WB and etc, etc, etc - I wouldn't classify them as WB's personally...I would classify them as Sport Horses. 

Don't get me wrong - I love my TBs, and always will. My next horse will definately be a TB, and I am pretty sure my next, and my next and my next...


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## Ray MacDonald

Ahaha! ^ nice.

I use a dressage whip in my lesson because my lesson horse is kinda lazy and needs a few taps ***TAPS*** To get his butt moving! lol

As for a well trained horse that moves good just as Anebel says, just another aid, flick it on the flank or rump.


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## Allison Finch

Northern said:


> *says very, very quietly, with a very pleasant facial expression*, "Oh, no, I would never say that kicking is kinder than a flick of a whip tassle. Perhaps I didn't make myself understood: I don't believe in _kicking_ the horse."
> 
> "I just couldn't leave that misconception about me on this thread; but with that said, I've got to run along! It's been an interesting threadl!" *leaves the building*


 
Good one, Northern. See, that didn't hurt showing you had a sense of humor...did it?

That was humor, right? :twisted:


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## Northern

Northern said:


> ponyboy & me:
> 
> our respected debate opponents: :twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted:





Allison Finch said:


> That was humor, right? :twisted:


One of the AAAKs reminding us of their unified faces.:shock:


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

Lol!!!! *walks to the kitchen for some more popcorn* 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ponyboy

Whew... What a week. 

Anyway, I was talking about this with a friend and it seems like horse people today don't use the word collection the way I mean it. They seem to use it to mean "engagement of the hind end." In my day we called that impulsion, and it certainly happens in many disciplines. The way I was taught, collection is much more than that, and it is _only_ ever achieved in upper-level dressage. 

BTW, I never said that using a bridle of any kind was cruel, and I'm certainly not a member of PETA. What I said was that you can hardly claim to have achieved "oneness" with the horse when you're using a lever and other instruments to communicate with it. (And no, it doesn't matter that you only use a tiny amount of pressure... The whole point of a lever is to decrease the amount of pressure needed). To me, the word "oneness" implies that you are communicating with the horse directly, not by using a tool. Does that clear it up?


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## JustDressageIt

So you ride around buck-nekkid with nary a string on your horse, ever? 
Ponyboy, give it a rest already. It's VERY obvious that you and I and a lot of members here don't and probably will never see eye to eye.


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## Spyder

ponyboy said:


> Whew... What a week.
> 
> Anyway, I was talking about this with a friend and it seems like horse people today don't use the word collection the way I mean it. They seem to use it to mean "engagement of the hind end." In my day we called that impulsion, and it certainly happens in many disciplines. The way I was taught, collection is much more than that, and it is _only_ ever achieved in upper-level dressage.
> ?



Just as I originally thought. Your basis is flawed and therefore the assumptions thereafter become skewed.


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## fuadteagan

OK, It wasn't exactly dressage, it is called a title! She posted these for you to see the amazing bond and connection of horse and rider not to say it is not "techinally" dressage. You should be say, O.M.G. this is amazing. Which is what I thought lol!


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## spookychick13

fuadteagan said:


> OK, It wasn't exactly dressage, it is called a title! She posted these for you to see the amazing bond and connection of horse and rider not to say it is not "techinally" dressage. You should be say, O.M.G. this is amazing. Which is what I thought lol!



Thanks, I kinda regret posting this at all, to be honest.


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## fuadteagan

:| no prob. It is sad that you have to regret putting these amazing video up because some people need to correct EVERYTHING! I would do anything just to have that
Much connection and bond with my horse
Have a good day,
Fuadteagan
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spookychick13

Thanks!! I agree, I would love to have that connection as well.

I actually tried to edit the title back when I posted it but wasn't able to. Ah well.
At least it sparked discussion, and it is a cool video. 

Take care.


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## Spyder

spookychick13 said:


> At least it sparked discussion


More like a bonfire !!!


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## ponyboy

Spyder said:


> Just as I originally thought. Your basis is flawed and therefore the assumptions thereafter become skewed.


Well then why didn't you say that five pages ago?? :lol: I said several times I thought collection only happened in upper level dressage and no one explained that their definition was different. It would have saved us all a lot of time. 

(I'm sticking to my original definition though... If collection just means impulsion then how do you distinguish collected gaits from extended ones?? A dressage horse should have impulsion at *all* times after all).


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## Spyder

ponyboy said:


> Well then why didn't you say that five pages ago?? :lol: I said several times I thought collection only happened in upper level dressage and no one explained that their definition was different. It would have saved us all a lot of time.
> 
> (I'm sticking to my original definition though... If collection just means impulsion then how do you distinguish collected gaits from extended ones?? A dressage horse should have impulsion at *all* times after all).



I tried to avoid putting this thread more off topic than it was for what you want to argue should be in the dressage section...not the picture section of this forum.


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## AnimalFarm2006

I loved that! it may not be dressage but you have to admit that it was inspirational.

Anyone else think that horse was acualy having fun when the owner got off and was doing tricks on the ground?


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## equiniphile

Ponyboy, any horse competing in dressage, at any level, should show collecction.


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