# Tb lineage



## trIplEcrOwngIrl (May 13, 2009)

CJ82Sky had a good idea to start a thread on Throroughbred lineage and studs. So, I made one!  So here's a horse just to start it off

Vision and Verse(By Storm Cat, out of Bunting)

He also happens to be my horse's sire . So what do you guys think of him? Feel free to add others!


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Molly's Cat's grandsire is Storm Cat, she is out of Rachel Allyn and by Tomorrow's Cat. She also has Personal Flag, Northern Dancer, Secretariat (Bold Ruler x Somethingroyal), and Damascus.
Free 5-Cross Thoroughbred Pedigrees from equineline.com - Thoroughbred Pedigree now with Free Interactive Nicking

Excel is out of Vienna Dawn and by Diligence. Mr Prospector, Raise a Native, Gold Digger, Buckpasser, Marshua, Native Dancer, Nashua, Princequillo. He has a lot of linebreeding to these names.
Free 5-Cross Thoroughbred Pedigrees from equineline.com - Thoroughbred Pedigree now with Free Interactive Nicking

Sultan's Concubine is a mare we had a long time ago, out of Our Raiser and by Island Sultan, also has Bold Ruler and Bold Ruler's What a Pleasure, Princequillo, Count Fleet, Man o' War, Man o' War's War Siren, and Man o' war's War Siren.
Free 5-Cross Thoroughbred Pedigrees from equineline.com - Thoroughbred Pedigree now with Free Interactive Nicking


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

nice lines! v & v is a classic miler - every time they tried him at anything over a mile he hit the board but not quite enough to be first. good stamina for a storm cat kid, and def that miler like storm cat likes to throw.

storm cat is a little over-compact for my liking but known for milers which matches his confo (IF i remember correctly). i'm guessing your horse has a short back, slightly thick neck, and small-ish head (not small but broader forehead with tapered nose that is almost QH-ish). but hey i could be wrong lol!

he's certainly athletic though not as much stamina as i like to see but the secretariat damsire in there helps quite a bit, and the crimson satan will add some fire. not a huge fan of crimson spirit for no reason other than i pefer his offspring harvard man instead who is out of rich reserve (swaps daughter - v. nice imo) and tends to throw height, leggy, and dark (personal weaknesses of mine) coupled with a thicker horse like storm cat imo would have produced more bone. anyway back to lines here.... bolero rose - crimson saint's damsire is weaker imo despite the bolero influence and better racers, i like the swaps athleticism better. anyway that can be argued as a pro or con so it's really just personal preference.


i do like the damascus > private account on the damsire side for some levelheadedness and a nice long sweeping gait. this gave your horse (again guessing) some more leg length and helped improve neck most likely, but could have also added some more slightly upright pasterns. i also like the buckpasser with damascus as that tends to make a nice tempered horse and hoist the flag and tom fool add some old school quality in there too.

so what does your horse look like based on my guesses? 
i'm thinking he's good for an hour of work but after that will fatigue pretty rapidly. yes? (of course depending on fitness haha)


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

i always try to look at closer lines - going back nearly every TB has bold ruler, secretariat, northern dancer, or someone similar in there. damascus and buckpasser were also bred to death lol.

i find unless you are looking for a broodmare, secretariat lines mean far less to me than seeing his dam somethingroyal and/or princequillo crossed with something for a more athletic performer. don't get me wrong secretariat had some great babies but again was so overbred that the presence of his name alone doesn't mean anything to me when looking at pedigrees.

i like to look at the first two generations for what the horse will really be like to me and then look for known personality traits and/or athleticism and potential disciplines when i go a little farther back as that tends to be more general and of course the farther back you go the less influence it has. 

i NEED to get my friend morgan in here - her and i go back and forth talking tb lines all day!!!


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Okay CJ82Sky, tell me about Danzig. I've never been very into researching bloodlines. I mainly just look at a horse for their structure, and not really looked into their history too much, but those with Danzig that I've come across have had such pretty build. Just wondered if any have really excelled at anything outside of racing.


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## trIplEcrOwngIrl (May 13, 2009)

Wow, thanks CJ that is really detailed! And awsome! Here is his 5X pedigree(it's at the very bottom) and a picture(or maybe a couple of pix, lol!)


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

haha my description was pretty accurate sweet!!!!
it's kinda a crapshoot at that (just like breeding) to try to guess based on lines alone but love when i am right 

here's a TB i like despite true lack of racing history - soundness and longevity - 
Mr Leader Horse Pedigree

something else most people looking at race history don't consider is that most studs run for only a few years and are retired to stud & pasture before every proving longevity and soundness. here's a horse that lived to 33 w/o issue which is rare to begin with and unheard of as a TB. but to me that's a big win in any lines. (he's also a hail to reason offspring which is the sire of halo who i love).


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

gotta get some work done but will come back re: danzig!


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## Carleen (Jun 19, 2009)

CJ82Sky, I'd love to know what you think of my guy's lines. Hopefully, the link below works.

Backflash Pedigree


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## DubyaS6 (Aug 30, 2010)

Oooh oooh me too!

http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz290/LydiaRenae/Santana/SantanaPedigree.jpg


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Carleen said:


> CJ82Sky, I'd love to know what you think of my guy's lines. Hopefully, the link below works.
> 
> Backflash Pedigree


at a quick glance i like.

deputy minister is a little far back for my liking but i'm extremely biased as i have 2 DM horses. i'd prefer to see war deputy there rather than dehere but again that's be being biased since dehere is solid. finality is also nice and loves turf which usually carries over to a decent eventer however he's a bit long backed for what i like - and based on the below im guessing your boy would make a nice hunter/eq horse over dressage's rounder movement.

on the bottom you have halo's son devil's bag which is prob my favorite halo colt second only to the great sunday silence. if only that went to devil his due rather than diablo you'd have even more stamina there! Diablo's a looker, but also long backed and high withered so i'm guessing based on lines your guy has broad shoulder and is top narrow/base wide (oooh fun saddle fitting haha). slightly long in the back and loin with a good shoulder angle that will help make up for that. despite that, the deputy minister and halo influences probably gave him a decent hind end for a smooth jump though he can tend to get a little flat/long OF and prefers a long spot.

tell me how i did!


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## Roberto (Dec 17, 2009)

This is a great thread. Here's my girl, Soy La Una a.k.a Lady, at 21yrs. old running with her colt Darling Roberto, a.k.a Pistol. And here's a link to her pedigree: Soy La Una Thoroughbred


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

oooh i should have told you to not show me pics first so i can guess based on bloodlines haha!!!! darnit. ok will check her out shortly. and i still owe a danzig review (not my fave stud but not that i dislike his lines either - so i just need to dig a little more before spewing off opinions lol!)


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## DubyaS6 (Aug 30, 2010)

Dont forget my girl


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

nevermind haha bc i don't see much in those lines other than way back. most of lady's lines were unraced. i'm guessing that it was a smaller breeder from the looks of it - but also seem to have a good eye for confo from what i can find. so many never had starts. im guessing they were bred to be riding horses not racehorses bc it is odd to have 3 generations with next to no race history whatsoever.

lady never broke her maiden in 4 tries (Horse Stat Profile Page for Soy La Una) and was intelligently retired from racing, im guessing sound. from the looks of it, she doesn't have a strong pedigree to run and that seems to be holding true, but nicely put together lineage - which hard to tell from the pics but she looks nice to me running and playing! that i assume someone didn't care if these horses were pushed or not bc they had potential in other areas as well.

wish i could tell you more but she's from semi-obscure lines (good stuff farther back but like i said i look at closest 2-3 gens.).

i assume you didn't breed her for racing right?


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## Roberto (Dec 17, 2009)

CJ82Sky, 

No I wasn't the original breeder. She came to me as a 16yr.old. She went on from her poor racing career to be a fantastic jumper. And when turned out to play would just breeze and breeze. Loves to run, but as you know didn't and doesn't have the speed. 

We love her. I don't know if it was the way she was raised, but she has never become an affection horse. Pretty much, put the hay there, clean my corral, make sure my water is cleaned and filled, and I'll take a few apples and carrots as soon as you have time. The only way I know that she truly loves me, is she's saved my butt over jumps a number of times. Caught me on her neck, before I could finish my free fall.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

DubyaS6 said:


> Oooh oooh me too!
> 
> http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz290/LydiaRenae/Santana/SantanaPedigree.jpg


looking now.

offhand her dam lines are very weak (racing wise).

*<disclaimer>oh and PLEASE know im looking at TB RACING LINES. if i say dam lines suck, that doesn't mean YOUR horse sucks, just that for racing, the dam is unimpressive lol. just wanted to clarify that!!!</disclaimer>*

anyway yeah weak dam lines. storm cat holds true to stamp his get so what i said above still applies. compact-ish qh looking (almost not quite as thick) little longer in the back. overall im going to guess the storm cat type look, athletic build, energetic then tires out after about 40 min or so. sorry i can't say more as dam lines are a big fat question mark lol and im not gonna make stuff up just to ramble


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Roberto said:


> CJ82Sky,
> 
> No I wasn't the original breeder. She came to me as a 16yr.old. She went on from her poor racing career to be a fantastic jumper. And when turned out to play would just breeze and breeze. Loves to run, but as you know didn't and doesn't have the speed.
> 
> We love her. I don't know if it was the way she was raised, but she has never become an affection horse. Pretty much, put the hay there, clean my corral, make sure my water is cleaned and filled, and I'll take a few apples and carrots as soon as you have time. The only way I know that she truly loves me, is she's saved my butt over jumps a number of times. Caught me on her neck, before I could finish my free fall.


awesome! yeah she's **** athletic looking and i love that while having semi-unknown lines, that people RETIRED her and didn't go and keep trying to run her! she def is built for jumping from your pics  yay happy retired racehorse stories!


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## DubyaS6 (Aug 30, 2010)

Thanks!

I wouldnt really say she is QH-ish, but she is a little on the smallish side for a TB. I dont think her back is too long, do you?

She does have a bit of a refined head I believe, its not big and bulky. She wears a cob size as you can see this halter is huge on her (it was my old QH's halter).

Head









Body (Please ignore the weight, I have only had her 2 months and have her on a new diet):









I am kinda sad to hear about the lack of endurance since I would like to Event with her, but maybe that's something we can overcome with fitness. I have noticed that she becomes winded fairly easily, however I have attributed that to the fact that she is just now 5 and hasnt had much as far as consistent work in the last year.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

dubya - please note my assessment is based on limited line knowledge and in no way translates to her total potential!

id think with condition she'd be great for eventing. remember you're still all in talking less than an hour of work. i think she'd struggle with something like hunter paces but only time will tell. that's something that needs more stamina bc it can be 30 - 40 jumps up to 3'6" over 12+ miles. WAY more than an event course of 1/4 that!

don't stress it. and whenever you are unsure - remember john henry!


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

i've found conformation and bloodlines are a great study but real life heart means a lot more. 

just look at john henry who at nearly EVERY stage of his life was a conformational nightmare! yet was horse of the year twice with enough winnings to put all the rest to shame!


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

ok here - you can tell me about mine: Captain Hook Thoroughbred


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

i'm out for the nite! i'll get back to you on danzig over the weekend i promise 

anyone want to take a stab at crimsonsky's horse? i already know about the horse so i'll leave that for someone else. enjoy guys!


have a great weekend


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

I don't know a lot about this stuff it's so interesting to learn!

Crimson, Shasta and captain hook are related! =). She also is from hyperion. I'm sure this is probably not a big deal and happens all the time but this is the first time I have seen it so it's cool for me!

CJ what do you think about Seattle slew offspring?


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

CJ82Sky, can you look at mine? First page


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

CJ82Sky, when you have a moment can you look at mine 
Alyrunj Thoroughbred
I know nothing about racing or race horses lol


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## lyssabear (Feb 18, 2011)

I've groomed lots of storm cats, but my favorite sire has got to bed Stephanotis. they always have a lot of personality and a lot of them are a word i cannot say but i love grooming them anyways they always have a spunk to em


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

lyssabear said:


> I've groomed lots of storm cats, but my favorite sire has got to bed Stephanotis. they always have a lot of personality and a lot of them are a word i cannot say but i love grooming them anyways they always have a spunk to em


oooh don't know much about him - tell me more i want to learn!!! thanks!!!

going to catch up on some of these in a few.

haven't personally handled seattle slew offspring so i can't say - the lines i comment more about personality on are the ones that i also have handled their offspring. don't like to speak about things that i haven't experienced. i have heart they are very athletic and can be quite versatile depending on the dam.

danzig i knew a few horses with his lines but for the LIFE of me i can't remember which ones. the one im thinking of is a cherokee run / buckpasser / damascus offspring and i keep thinking it's him but it's not and it is driving me insane.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

equiniphile said:


> Molly's Cat's grandsire is Storm Cat, she is out of Rachel Allyn and by Tomorrow's Cat. She also has Personal Flag, Northern Dancer, Secretariat (Bold Ruler x Somethingroyal), and Damascus.
> Free 5-Cross Thoroughbred Pedigrees from equineline.com - Thoroughbred Pedigree now with Free Interactive Nicking
> 
> Excel is out of Vienna Dawn and by Diligence. Mr Prospector, Raise a Native, Gold Digger, Buckpasser, Marshua, Native Dancer, Nashua, Princequillo. He has a lot of linebreeding to these names.
> ...


ok so from what i see i like molly and rachel allyn sounds nice on paper. not sure about her dam lines but her sire lines are strong and of course the storm cat lines are good and solid which is nice. i'd love to know more about her granddam lines and i asked my friend to join us in here who i talk tb lines with all the time to see if she can help 

i'll be honest that i don't know much about excel's lines unless you go farther back and i don't feel that has nearly as much relevance. diligence looks slightly downhill to me from what i can see, but other than that nicely put together. if he's like his sire, i'm going to guess that he can get a little heavy on the fore even if not built that downhill but again i'll be honest this is just a guess. (i won't bs you - i know some lines but there are DEF more people with w LOT more knowledge than me out there!!!!) there's some nice irish and french lines in there that i like a ton not bc i know them but bc the irish and french tbs tend to be of more substantial bone (generally speaking) so making an assumption here (and hoping it was passed on to him too!). would love to see what balanced out the slightly thick neck and downhill of the top lines with the international influence of the bottom - neither do i see major flaws with - so i'd think there was a chance that while not having a ton of speed, he def has some stamina and a solid build - maybe not as leggy but certainly with some good heartgirth depth and shoulder reach and a broad hind. yes? no? i'm super curious to see - and to get morgan in here bc i think she knows more about IRE and FR lines.

k sultan's concubine (what a name lol!) - LOVE her top lines. what a pleasure and bold ruler that close are nice. island sultan was mediocre as a racehorse but the other two are a nice strong influence. again i don't know much about the dam lines - i never understood the breeding of mares line after line with no race record but that's just my personal opinion as there are plenty of mares like that producing winners. so eh who am i to say lol! 

ok im beat after a long day of riding and what not. more later  can't wait to hear more on what your horses are actually like!


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Rachel1786 said:


> CJ82Sky, when you have a moment can you look at mine
> Alyrunj Thoroughbred
> I know nothing about racing or race horses lol


oooh alydar 2nd generation back?! impressive! hmm alyfoe was unraced and just used as a stud - wonder why? anyone know? i'll try to find out more if i have time. ugh they raced the daylights out of arunj the poor mare. 4th generation is SUPER strong as well though farther back too - i think despite it being farther back with all those strong influences that it could still show through. interesting - ridan is a great sprinter - nice mix of stamina and speed - so while alyrunj wasn't a good runner, i'm guessing there's some really nice athleticism in there with decent fire and stamina. interesting indeed


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

Sky! I have a few questions for ya, if you can take on the challenge 

-What lines/sires do you warn against as far as temperment goes? I've heard that storm cat's foals/grand foals(?) can be pretty hot.
-What lines/sires produce the best movement off the track?
-What lines/sires are best to look at for eventing and hard core performance, and what are the worst?

All generally, of course!  I know not ALL foals by one sire/line are the same.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Eliz said:


> Sky! I have a few questions for ya, if you can take on the challenge
> 
> -What lines/sires do you warn against as far as temperment goes? I've heard that storm cat's foals/grand foals(?) can be pretty hot.
> -What lines/sires produce the best movement off the track?
> ...


eeks i NEED to get morgan in here lol. her and i debate this sort of thing all the time **** (and it's fun bc of course it's all opinion!).

see i've heard storm cat isn't that hot - but i tend towards hotter. 
2 of my tbs are War Deputy/Crimson Satan horses which are hot, and can be nasty. Harvard Man offspring isn't nasty but can be flighty ime.
Sky Wars Horse Pedigree
however i love them - sky is a kickass hunter pace horse & jumper and opal is a great eventer and jumper. both can be complete spazzes, and strong willed, both are buckers and rearers (not mean anymore now that they are over 10 haha but they still have it in them and aren't afraid to voice their opinions when they disagree with something). but both are amazingly athletic and will try their heart out for you when you have a connection with them and you're doing something they love. i'd say something with a little less fire would be better for eventing so that you can have better brains there haha. but they both move amazingly (opal approved Old NA Main Mare book just a few points away from premium) and sky - well here...









Sunday Silence was amazing with a good temperament, yet most other Halo offspring are not (and SS babies are hard to find as he stood at stud in japan). i'd kill for an SS baby - not just because of his reputation, but because of his heart and athleticism and because i grew up watching him race and will never forget seeing his preakness win - and his breeder's cup classic win. in all of his starts he was never less than 2nd, and him and easy goer had a rivalry for the ages. i was always upset that he just missed the triple crown!

my fave race pics are from this season (with the exception of secretariat of course) - the slightly larger easy goer, to the smaller, scrappier, bigger heart (imo) sunday silence. 
it was riveting watching them go stride for stride in the stretch with unreal timing - legs moving identically yet again! i was screaming at the tv in excitement! sunday silence won by a nose. 

















look at that finish you can barely see there are two horses there - it was unreal!!









so back to halo - i like them and sunday silence def had some fire to him, but stay away from ANYTHING silver ghost. a friend of mine said he's had experience with his offspring and they are nasty. SG himself needs multiple handlers and is a nightmare from what i've been told to get him to the breeding shed. ugh.


damascus and buckpasser i have seen some nice hunters from and cherokee run had an offspring (wish i could remember his registered name) that was leggy, 17h, flat kneed mover that cleaned up rated hunters. nice looking totally calm boy too!

for eventers i think it's so much about heart - and less about bloodlines. if sky didn't hate eventing he'd be amazing. (yeah i know he loves hunter paces - don't ask. i did mention he's slightly psychotic right?! we once dq'd from a rater jumper show for lack of forward movement bc he just froze and had a temporary brain explode moment and stood stock still... *sigh* but as long as we do paces now he's insanely happy and will do some shows here and there haha). his sister is a nut on paces, but is willing to event and gamey as hell over jumpers. both are unbelievably athletic. i stay away from horses with short speed (7 furlongs and less) as to me that usually shows speed with lack of stamina and that can work for jumpers but i want a horse for eventing that can hold their own and not peter out on me. i'll check race records of first 2 gens to see length of races and results and get an idea of past perf and go from there.

for eventers i look at heart, bone (not a fan of lighter built tbs anyway regardless of height) and check lines to see if i can find info on soundness. the hard thing with TBs is so many race a handful of times and are retired and never tested to see what their longevity really is - so in essence we're breeding tons of horses that we have no idea if they will be sound or not long term. finding lines with history of longevity speak monuments to me when it comes to eventing.

also for research i use
equibase.com
brisnet.com
pedigreequery.com
and of course lots of google searches and a few other sites that have race horse history!


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

thanks for the brain stimulation guys - would love to hear YOUR opinions too as opinions are just that - opinions and i love discussions about varying points of view!!!!


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## lyssabear (Feb 18, 2011)

All i can say about Stephanotis is 

30 Starts, 10 Wins, 6 Places, 2 Shows *Career Earnings:* 843,295 

He is standing at stud at a farm near me - he's ran in some nice stakes races! some of which are distance races. and all the horses i've groomed that are offspring of his are grey. Love em  < - pretty self explanatory. With him i found i see a lot more horses that love to go the distance but can still go as a sprinter if thats the only race that is open for them. they all have heart and talent for the industry.!

also northern dancer is in his blood line - HE was one hell of a stud! Champion three year old in Canada and the USA 18 starts 14 win 2 seconds and 2 thirds.. he is something that i wish i was around to watch race - gives me chills!!!


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## UnbrokenLaw (Feb 20, 2011)

Hey guys!! I'm jumping in as a suggestion to CJ... 

I have an 8 y/o gelding by Meadow Monster out of Criminology who's by Criminal Type... I know very little about the lines other than Meadow Monster is apparently one of the top money earning sires in PA... however my horse was a fail on the track... I'll post pictures later. 

And in response to asked good TB sires for off the track... Harry the Hat is also a really nice stud... a lot of nice hunters by him, and they have great temperaments. I've dealt with a few.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

UnbrokenLaw said:


> Hey guys!! I'm jumping in as a suggestion to CJ...
> 
> I have an 8 y/o gelding by Meadow Monster out of Criminology who's by Criminal Type... I know very little about the lines other than Meadow Monster is apparently one of the top money earning sires in PA... however my horse was a fail on the track... I'll post pictures later.
> 
> And in response to asked good TB sires for off the track... Harry the Hat is also a really nice stud... a lot of nice hunters by him, and they have great temperaments. I've dealt with a few.


hiii trish *waves*  
yeah you know we've talked about collin's lines before and i really don't know much about them. (and as an update i'm still watching ready for autumn - hopefully she will be coming off the track around the same time that i've settled into a new job with ore $ lol). do you know any more about collin's lines? we've spent so much time lately looking into lyric haha i forgot to ask if you ever found out more about collin!

everyone - this is my friend trish and a partner in crime in researching TBs with me


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## UnbrokenLaw (Feb 20, 2011)

CJ82Sky said:


> hiii trish *waves*
> yeah you know we've talked about collin's lines before and i really don't know much about them. (and as an update i'm still watching ready for autumn - hopefully she will be coming off the track around the same time that i've settled into a new job with ore $ lol). do you know any more about collin's lines? we've spent so much time lately looking into lyric haha i forgot to ask if you ever found out more about collin!
> 
> everyone - this is my friend trish and a partner in crime in researching TBs with me



Hey girl!!!! I don't know much about them at all... I've found some stuff out about Meadow Monster, but know nothing about his dam's side at all...His sire's grandsire is Hold Your Peace and his dam's sire's sire is Alydar. He's linebred Native Dancer as well... his sire's dam's sire's sire and his dam's dam's sire's sire... if that makes any sense, and Meadow Monster himself is linebred Native Dancer as well. The bottom side of that line on his dam's side (her grand dam) is Reviewer (X Bold Ruler), who I believe is known for nasty temperaments but good performance, and out of a Gallant Man mare... which is basically very similar to Secretariet's lines (Also out of a Bold Ruler. 

His sire's dam is linebred Menetrier. His dam's sire's dam traces back to Swaps as well.

Collin's pedigree- Unbroken Law Horse Pedigree
He was a fail on the track. He ran three times as a three year old March/April/May of 2006. Never even showed, only won $1200 and change, and came off the track with a bone chip and hair line fracture in his knee. My old boss got him in August of '06, and he was sound, and I started riding him that December, and bought him in Feb of 07. He's been doing H/J since then and is a nice mover (he's in my avatar) and a cute jumper when he's in steady work. Not hot headed at all and easy to handle. 


Meadow Monster himself stands at OSullivan Farms in WV. Here's his stats (I'm sure these are little past being updated, copyright on the site is 07)
Stakes winner of $496,916
Equaled track record for 6 fur. 
Ran 6 fur. in 1:084/5 twice, 1:09, 1:092/5 twice
Ran 7 fur. in 1:22, 1:222/5
Perenially a leading sire of 2-year-olds in the Mid-Atlantic region. Five 2-year-old winners from 11 starters through 
Nov. 7, 2006, including SUE’S SWEET GIRL and stakes-placed Triple Treat. By MEADOWLAKE, representing the Prince John sire line of Hold Your Peace.
progeny earnings exceed $5.4 million Sire of 15 stakes horses
--Leading earner IT’S A MONSTER ($289,090) winning Longfellow S at Monmouth Park.
Progeny earnings exceed $5.4 million 
Sire of 15 stakes horses:
ITS A MONSTER ($289,090, Teddy Drone S, Longfellow S, Oh Say S, 3rd Gr. 3 Jersey Shore Breeders’ Cup S, etc.), HAUNTED LASS ($286,869, Everget S, Nuit d’Amour S, 2nd Gr. 3 Sorority S, etc.), 
HI TECH HONEYCOMB ($278,128, Panthers S, 3rd Gr. 2 Orchid H, etc.), 
MONSTER CHASER ($181,290), 
MEADOW BLUE ($154,535), 
SUE’S SWEET GIRL (2 wins, $63,000 in 2 starts at 2, 2006, Triple Crown Nutrition Breeders Classic S), MONSTER MOVE.


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## UnbrokenLaw (Feb 20, 2011)

I'm going to throw another out at you too... 

This is a 7 y/o gelding we have at the farm that came off the track and was gelded last winter. He did a couple of local shows last summer quite successfully... definitely studish at times due to late gelding, but what do you think of his lines? 

Jupiters Stone Horse Pedigree

I personally think he's a beautiful mover and a cute jumper. I'll get some pics to post in a bit as well.


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## memcwhit (Feb 19, 2011)

Eliz said:


> Sky! I have a few questions for ya, if you can take on the challenge
> 
> -What lines/sires do you warn against as far as temperment goes? I've heard that storm cat's foals/grand foals(?) can be pretty hot.
> -What lines/sires produce the best movement off the track?
> ...


Hi, I'm the friend, Morgan. 

IME, Storm Cat's tend to be tense and anxious, not omg EXPLODE! hot, but they have a ton of heart and don't really have quit in their vocabulary. Then again, I also tend towards a little hot as well. My biggest issue with SCs are that they tend to be a little small and dainty (but very nicely put together), and my Napoleon complex doesn't appreciate small, dainty horses...lol.

In general, I look for horses for eventing with heavy foreign influence (both of mine have a lot of french TB, will post their pedigrees) and more than actual bloodlines, I'm one to look at all those little numbers at the top, the DI and CD. The foreign TBs tend to be bred more for longer distances and longer careers.

Here are my guys:

Roo Rum Horse Pedigree This is Roo, my gumpy old man. I like that the French influence has thrown good bone (he's a tank) and he's got distance like no other. He didn't run for crap on the track because he wasn't even warmed up in the first mile...lol. What I don't like is that he's pretty much a conformational trainwreck, and at 23, he's got all the soundness issues that you would expect from his conformational flaws.

Mer Belle Horse Pedigree And this is Belle. Horse #2 with a French dam. See a pattern here? Conformationally, I like this mare more. She's got the great bone from her foreign influence (as well as the stamina) and is super compact with tons of power and athleticism. What I don't like is that she's a mare and plots evil with that power and athleticism...lol. But seriously, she's beyond strong willed and she flashes from hot to not and back again before I can make the mental adjustment. She's a pretty phenomenal jumper (I've gotten her over 3'6" with absolute ease and she's super scopey to go higher) and has an autopilot gallop, but due to some training issues that I've encountered, I just don't know that she'll make an eventer. Fortunately for her, she has the movement and the desire for upper level dressage.

My lines to avoid, I hate to say it, but I don't like the Slews. I've ridden a few, and they're not bad, but they're a nightmare out of the saddle, and they do tend towards pretty hot in the saddle. As with most TBs, they settle some with a job and focus, but from what I've seen, it takes more time in work to get them there. I also try to avoid too much Dancer. Talk about overbred! Native Dancer lines are decent to a point, but too much pulls distance from the overall picture.

Oh, man, I forgot who I like for movement! Let me wake up some and maybe I'll remember.


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## txhorsejumper (Sep 19, 2010)

Hey tell me what you think about my 2004 gelding Abbies Pride...... 

Abbies Pride Horse Pedigree


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

Lol wow! Thanks for both of your replies!
My brain is freaking out trying to process all this information...
You all really know your stuff!


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

CJ82Sky said:


> ok so from what i see i like molly and rachel allyn sounds nice on paper. not sure about her dam lines but her sire lines are strong and of course the storm cat lines are good and solid which is nice. i'd love to know more about her granddam lines and i asked my friend to join us in here who i talk tb lines with all the time to see if she can help
> 
> i'll be honest that i don't know much about excel's lines unless you go farther back and i don't feel that has nearly as much relevance. diligence looks slightly downhill to me from what i can see, but other than that nicely put together. if he's like his sire, i'm going to guess that he can get a little heavy on the fore even if not built that downhill but again i'll be honest this is just a guess. (i won't bs you - i know some lines but there are DEF more people with w LOT more knowledge than me out there!!!!) there's some nice irish and french lines in there that i like a ton not bc i know them but bc the irish and french tbs tend to be of more substantial bone (generally speaking) so making an assumption here (and hoping it was passed on to him too!). would love to see what balanced out the slightly thick neck and downhill of the top lines with the international influence of the bottom - neither do i see major flaws with - so i'd think there was a chance that while not having a ton of speed, he def has some stamina and a solid build - maybe not as leggy but certainly with some good heartgirth depth and shoulder reach and a broad hind. yes? no? i'm super curious to see - and to get morgan in here bc i think she knows more about IRE and FR lines.
> 
> ...


 Wow, that was interesting! We'll start with Molly. She is a powerful horse, she could go forever. When I take her on trail through the thousand acre fields there, she would trot/canter forever if I let her. She's very go-ey, and I like her build too. She's an excellent dressage horse because of how well she can maneuver her body. Pic:








Here is Excel, he is in fact very leggy, but has grown into his legs a bit in the past year. His off-track trainer says that while it only shows he raced around 20 times, he really raced about 50 races, they just weren't recorded, however that's possible. He was retired just because he was too slow, but again, he has that staying power. He's very playful and to me, his best feature is his gorgeously refined head. I do not like his back end, I can't put my finger on it, but those hind legs are just not put together right. Here he is:








_Connie_....lol, whoever named her needs to be put away! I didn't know her that well because she died a few years after I was born, but my mom says she was very high-spirited and high-energy. I don't think I have any conformation pictures of her, here's the best I could find:








I appreciate you taking the time to do this, thank you!


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

CJ82Sky said:


> oooh alydar 2nd generation back?! impressive! hmm alyfoe was unraced and just used as a stud - wonder why? anyone know? i'll try to find out more if i have time. ugh they raced the daylights out of arunj the poor mare. 4th generation is SUPER strong as well though farther back too - i think despite it being farther back with all those strong influences that it could still show through. interesting - ridan is a great sprinter - nice mix of stamina and speed - so while alyrunj wasn't a good runner, i'm guessing there's some really nice athleticism in there with decent fire and stamina. interesting indeed


The only horse in her lines i had heard of was Alydar and that is only because after i got her and found out her registered name(she came from the kill pen) and mentioned it to a friend she asked me if she had alydar in her, so i looked it up lol That is awesome to know that she has such good lines, I've only had her since may and the first 4 months i just let her be a pasture pet, and then winter came(and i don't have an indoor) so we haven't done a whole lot, but she certainly is a fast learner, when i first got her she was a bit of a nightmare, VERY pushy and would run over me all the time, i'm just impressed that she won one race lol, and $32,851, she could have been the worst race horse ever and never won anything and i would still love her tho lol she's my most lovable horse, she's even more lovey then the gelding i've had 13 years, i think he just takes me affection for granted haha


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Sunny --My Lady Livermore-- doesn't have super impressive lines. Some of hers include Bold Ruler, Northern Dancer, Native Dancer, Princequillo, Avodire, Blushing Groom. As seen, she is racing bred. She's still going to be an awesome eventer. :wink:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## memcwhit (Feb 19, 2011)

UnbrokenLaw said:


> I'm going to throw another out at you too...
> 
> This is a 7 y/o gelding we have at the farm that came off the track and was gelded last winter. He did a couple of local shows last summer quite successfully... definitely studish at times due to late gelding, but what do you think of his lines?
> 
> ...


Oh hai, Trish! I looked this guy up and didn't even look at the poster...lol.

I like! I think he'd make a nice eventer because of his dosage or hunter because I bet he's pretty flat kneed but floaty. I like to see Nijinsky in there, esp so close, and I like the Dancer lines crossed with Quillo lines. It helps to balance back out the distance. His damline isn't spectacular, but I do like the Pleasant Colony line from Ribot. You see a few of those in eventing.

Guessing from pedigree, I would guess that he's average bone (not terribly heavy, but not dainty either), slightly steeper than average croup and pretty powerful hind end. I'd also bet that he's pretty levelheaded as far as spook is concerned and also pretty even undersaddle (adding to making him a decent hunter). His temperament may be because of being gelded late, but I kind of doubt it because Nijinky's are kind of bullish to handle anyway...lol.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

While we're on this topic, does anyone know how to add a picture to a horse on allbreedpedigree or thoroughbreddatabase?


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## memcwhit (Feb 19, 2011)

equiniphile said:


> While we're on this topic, does anyone know how to add a picture to a horse on allbreedpedigree or thoroughbreddatabase?


I use pedigreequery instead of allbreedpedigree as it's TB specific and just added a pic for Belle under maintenance. If you want to upload off your computer, then you have to sign in, but I did hers off of facebook in the url section and it worked.


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## UnbrokenLaw (Feb 20, 2011)

equiniphile said:


> While we're on this topic, does anyone know how to add a picture to a horse on allbreedpedigree or thoroughbreddatabase?


When you look it up and it says the name isn't in the database, there should be an option to add....


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

Question, how come pedigreequery.com says Bella's(alyrunj) career earnings were $2,770 but when i go onto equibase.com it says her earnings were $32,851. That is a huge difference! How do i know which one is correct? equibase has all the races listed to i would be more inclined to think they are correct, but i just don't understand how they are so much different.

ETA: this may be a stupid question, but when it says starts, wins, places and shows, what does shows mean? the others are all pretty much self explanatory, but i can't figure out what that could mean lol


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## UnbrokenLaw (Feb 20, 2011)

memcwhit said:


> Oh hai, Trish! I looked this guy up and didn't even look at the poster...lol.
> 
> I like! I think he'd make a nice eventer because of his dosage or hunter because I bet he's pretty flat kneed but floaty. I like to see Nijinsky in there, esp so close, and I like the Dancer lines crossed with Quillo lines. It helps to balance back out the distance. His damline isn't spectacular, but I do like the Pleasant Colony line from Ribot. You see a few of those in eventing.
> 
> Guessing from pedigree, I would guess that he's average bone (not terribly heavy, but not dainty either), slightly steeper than average croup and pretty powerful hind end. I'd also bet that he's pretty levelheaded as far as spook is concerned and also pretty even undersaddle (adding to making him a decent hunter). His temperament may be because of being gelded late, but I kind of doubt it because Nijinky's are kind of bullish to handle anyway...lol.


Red is VERY floaty when he moves. I love his movement, more so now that I've had the girl that rides him sit up more and really push him forward into her contact. He's kind of dainty, but not terribly dainty... I'm going to see if I can find a couple of pics of him... I don't have any good ones of him on the flat... but I'll try and take some this week...


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## UnbrokenLaw (Feb 20, 2011)

Rachel1786 said:


> Question, how come pedigreequery.com says Bella's(alyrunj) career earnings were $2,770 but when i go onto equibase.com it says her earnings were $32,851. That is a huge difference! How do i know which one is correct? equibase has all the races listed to i would be more inclined to think they are correct, but i just don't understand how they are so much different.


Pedigree Query goes off of people entering information more so than Equibase, which goes off of actual stats, if I'm not mistaken...


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Still wondering what you can tell me about the Danzig line. I've known a couple by him that were really nice hunters, but I don't know a lot about the line in general, or really any of the lines. I've never really looked into the background, just judged each horse by their own merit, but this is starting to interest me a lot.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

UnbrokenLaw said:


> Pedigree Query goes off of people entering information more so than Equibase, which goes off of actual stats, if I'm not mistaken...


yes you are correct - equibase is from JC info. pedigree query and all breed pedigree are user-added and updated.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

apachiedragon said:


> Still wondering what you can tell me about the Danzig line. I've known a couple by him that were really nice hunters, but I don't know a lot about the line in general, or really any of the lines. I've never really looked into the background, just judged each horse by their own merit, but this is starting to interest me a lot.


didn't forget danzig - just can't find the horse i knew by him that i was thinking about. i can try to look into it more tomorrow!!!! i promise i won't forget - i just don't want to post misinformation


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

UnbrokenLaw said:


> Pedigree Query goes off of people entering information more so than Equibase, which goes off of actual stats, if I'm not mistaken...


ok, i thought that might be the case, but i wasn't 100% sure. Also did you see the question i edited to add? You probably replied before i posted it, but what does show mean? when it says start, place, win and show?
Thanks


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## memcwhit (Feb 19, 2011)

Rachel1786 said:


> ok, i thought that might be the case, but i wasn't 100% sure. Also did you see the question i edited to add? You probably replied before i posted it, but what does show mean? when it says start, place, win and show?
> Thanks


Win = 1st place
Place = 2nd place
Show = 3rd place
Start = how many times they raced


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## txhorsejumper (Sep 19, 2010)

Hey can anyone help me out on "Abbies Pride"? 
I would love to hear what you think about his bloodlines. I am retraining him to hopefully do jumpers and maybe even eventing if I can that much courage lol  thx!!


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## memcwhit (Feb 19, 2011)

txhorsejumper said:


> Hey can anyone help me out on "Abbies Pride"?
> I would love to hear what you think about his bloodlines. I am retraining him to hopefully do jumpers and maybe even eventing if I can that much courage lol  thx!!


I honestly can't tell you a whole lot about him. He is bred out the wazoo on top but his damline is a little obscure. I would guess that he's a little hotter and according to his little numbers up top (DI) would be fine for jumpers/eventing, but I would also take a stab and have to wonder if he could hold weight when in heavy conditioning for eventing.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

bumpity bump - someone want to take a stab at captain hook?


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## txhorsejumper (Sep 19, 2010)

memcwhit said:


> I honestly can't tell you a whole lot about him. He is bred out the wazoo on top but his damline is a little obscure. I would guess that he's a little hotter and according to his little numbers up top (DI) would be fine for jumpers/eventing, but I would also take a stab and have to wonder if he could hold weight when in heavy conditioning for eventing.


He is a little hotter but is learning to control himself better.  He does seem to have trouble with his weight he is eating 7lbs of Ultium a day 4 flakes of hay and free turnout all day and still has a bit of a ribby look to him....


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Feel free to take a crack at Sunny, registered name My Lady Livermore.


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## memcwhit (Feb 19, 2011)

Sunny said:


> Feel free to take a crack at Sunny, registered name My Lady Livermore.


Interesting. She wasn't bred for racing, was she? Apparently, neither was her sire, which is kind of weird because he looks to have the lines for at least a little racing...lol. 

I don't really see a whole lot there. Nijinsky, but not close enough to affect personality (or is he?) and he was bred with a Quillo mare to soften that. I just don't see enough on her papers to be able to pass judgement on conformation or athletic ability. I still would like to know if her sire was bred for other sports or if there was some random reason he was unraced, like several of his siblings.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Sunny's mother raced but was a bit of a floozy, and her sire was supposed to race but was injured(or so I was told). From what I know Sunny wasn't bred for racing, but then again I have never personally talked to her breeders.


Thanks for taking the time to look!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

thanks morgan - i'm beat tonite lol
love ya!


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## armydogs (Apr 14, 2010)

If you have a moment would you check out Queen's pedigree and tell me what you think? I don't know much about her as far as riding goes. I am hoping you guys could shine a little light on which direction I could maybe take her.

Yieldtothequeen Horse Pedigree


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## memcwhit (Feb 19, 2011)

armydogs said:


> If you have a moment would you check out Queen's pedigree and tell me what you think? I don't know much about her as far as riding goes. I am hoping you guys could shine a little light on which direction I could maybe take her.
> 
> Yieldtothequeen Horse Pedigree


Nice. I've already said some about SC lines, but I really like them, and she's got some oooollllddd lines on the bottom. I'd guess that she's small and catty and would make a super nice jumper. She may be a little too tense for the dressage part of eventing, but if she's not (or works into settling down), she should excel at that as well, but definitely should be catty enough for jumpers.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

crimsonsky said:


> ok here - you can tell me about mine: Captain Hook Thoroughbred


bumpity bump.


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

any idea what Bella(alyrunj) might excel in judging from her bloodlines? This is fun 
oh and her are some videos of a friend riding her just for fun 
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding-critique/horse-critique-70617/


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## memcwhit (Feb 19, 2011)

Captain Hook--I like to see all of the GB in his 5th generation, but would like to see it closer as well. Even so, with it there, I would expect that he's larger boned than most and has a nicer shoulder than you typically see in a TB. That should giver him larger, floaty strides. He's got some really old lines, and I lovelovelove to see Hyperion actually on the papers. Based on pedigree alone, I could see him as a hunter (either field or show) or eventer.

Bella--man, she's cute. I think you're going in the right direction with her. Her shoulder is a little upright for upper level dressage, but she totally could do lower level and probably some eventing based on both her conformation/movement and pedigree. Good luck with her.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

I'd like to see what you have to say about my mare Demi. I already know most of what her lines can do but not all of them.

Red Hot Ransom Horse Pedigree

and Ginisee's if you have time 

Ginisee Horse Pedigree


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

memcwhit said:


> Captain Hook--I like to see all of the GB in his 5th generation, but would like to see it closer as well. Even so, with it there, I would expect that he's larger boned than most and has a nicer shoulder than you typically see in a TB. That should giver him larger, floaty strides. He's got some really old lines, and I lovelovelove to see Hyperion actually on the papers. Based on pedigree alone, I could see him as a hunter (either field or show) or eventer.


i'd say that's a pretty darn good estimation of him.  he's surely got the floating strides and is big boned/big shoulder. i think he'd love to be an eventer honestly as he's brave and bold on trails (more so than i am haha) but has the talent to pull it together for dressage. unless the fences are larger though he's quite put off by arena jumping. i think he finds is "below him".


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

memcwhit said:


> Bella--man, she's cute. I think you're going in the right direction with her. Her shoulder is a little upright for upper level dressage, but she totally could do lower level and probably some eventing based on both her conformation/movement and pedigree. Good luck with her.


Thank you, I just lover her to death! Bella is my first horse that actually has show potential, so i've never shown before, but now that i'm older i might do some little local shows, so i if she can't do anything higher then training level or first level that is fine with me, eventing kinda scares me tho(just jumping intimates me) lol, although the woman riding her in the videos showed in eventing before she had kids and sold her horse, so i told her she could show her if she wanted, i figured it would be good experience for Bella


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## memcwhit (Feb 19, 2011)

eventerdrew said:


> I'd like to see what you have to say about my mare Demi. I already know most of what her lines can do but not all of them.
> 
> Red Hot Ransom Horse Pedigree
> 
> ...


I really like Demi. She's bred for sport on her damline, and her sireline is not too shabby either. All that foreign influence means that turf is in her blood, and they usually make the switch to XC really well. I'd guess her to be fairly compact, nice bone, slightly upright in the shoulder, and a lot of heart.

Just a side note on why I love French TBs so much...French TBs were the foundation stock for the Selle Francais breed, so in essence, by getting a horse with a lot of French breeding, you're really getting a cheap SF. My old man is actually very closely related to the Olympic jumper, Rhum IV, via his damline.

Ginisee, I'm not such a fan of. She also has a heavy foreign influence, but given her DI, I'd be afraid that she'd be difficult to condition for the distances in eventing. She's heavily leaning towards speed with hardly anything to balance for distance. I would bet that she'd make a good jumper and that she's quick and catty, just based off of that. Then again, there may be something that I'm missing because I'm not terribly familiar with most of the horses on her pedigree. But basically, if I were to be presented with both of these horses for sale and had to buy on pedigree alone, I would jump on Demi in a heartbeat.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with Demi. 

Her sire is Kiri's Clown who was a Gr I stakes winner and her Roberto line is very strong for eventers. She's VERY compact. I'll post a pic of her in a minute.

Ginisee doesn't have much of the sporthorse line that Demi does. She's actually very quick to condition but her balance is very downhill. She's a good jumper and pretty quick. I'll post a few of her too.

Thank you!


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

Demi is the bright bay, Ginisee is almost black


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## memcwhit (Feb 19, 2011)

Lol, well that's why DI isn't proven. It shows how your horse is bred, not how it actually is. Current proof is Becky Holder's Courageous Comet. His DI is pretty high with his profile leaning heavily towards sprinters yet he's booking around at the top level of the sport. Although, seeing the pics, I still like Demi more (and yes, that feels awkward to type...lol). 

P.S. Ginisee has a very very pretty head!


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

lol to demi moore


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

i have to jump back in here at some point i love this stuff, i've just been busy with some stuff of my own (all good stuff!)

anyway that's why i wanted morgan in here to keep this going. her and i talk tb lineage and love it  and we know different lines so together we can cover a lot of bloodlines! imagine us every triple crown season....

which morgan - are you following any of the prep races? we may need to start another thread there!


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## memcwhit (Feb 19, 2011)

Lol, yeah, all my non-TB friend are always looking at me funny whenever we get on the phone. 

I haven't, I'm bad. I've just been so freaking busy. you know I always count on you to fill me in!


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

memcwhit said:


> Lol, yeah, all my non-TB friend are always looking at me funny whenever we get on the phone.
> 
> I haven't, I'm bad. I've just been so freaking busy. you know I always count on you to fill me in!


mine too. heck even my horse-friends look at me funny when we're on the phone during the triple crown. i WISH you could come to the travers with us - you can meet all the horses, walk around the barns, etc. cool stuff!

oh and demi IS amazing.
breed her! she's lovely, talented, and well bred!!!


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

^ we are planning on breeding her to these two stallions later on in life...

Wedderlie Mardi Gras (per the request of her breeder)










And my favorite, Cicera's Icewater


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## donovan (Jun 11, 2009)

Red storm by Zephyrs tornado out of Vaudebelle Free 5 Cross Pedigree Report


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Still wondering about Danzig offspring...


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

ooh i'll ask morgan about danzig. i haven't handled any offspring directly so i don't want to have an ill-formed opinion!


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