# Pulling/running through the bit



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Okay, so my Aires is VERY green broke (only five rides on him, with today being his fifth ride). He is actually doing GREAT with turning (direct reins and is starting to understand leg yielding...when I rode him today, he worked off my leg almost as much as he did the bit) and we're almost pro at figure eights and "pole bending" at a walk. The biggest problem we're having is stopping. 

I am by no means an expert and I am working with the trainer at our barn, but I wanted to get some input on what I can work on with him on my own. I ride him in a loose ring french link snaffle that is fairly fat and he does great with it. He's very responsive when I ask him to turn and has a wonderfully soft mouth. 

So here's what he does now. When I ask him to stop, I apply pressure straight back on the reins (pull them to my hips) and say "Ho." He knows the verbal cue well. I also sit back/down into the seat of the saddle (I ride in an Aussie saddle). He will pull his head in (luckily he doesn't throw it up!) as far as he can, but he'll just keep on walking. He doesn't exactly fight the bit, he just ignores it, really, until he decides to stop. 

So, what can I do to stop him from pulling through the bit? 

We had an issue today where he took off trotting (totally my fault...was trying to give him outside leg and accidentally gave him outside heel instead, so he took that to mean I wanted him to trot). Trying to stop him was like trying to stop a freight train...an incredibly smooth freight train, but a freight train nonetheless. I remembered one-rein stopping right before we reached the fence and started to pull him around, but I'm left-handed and so I naturally went to pull to the left, but the fence was there. By the time I went to switch sides, he had already stopped of his own accord next to the other horses in the arena with us. We kept on working for a while longer and he was doing well, but when I asked him to stop, about three-quarters of the time he would just ignore me for at least a half dozen strides, usually more. 

Someone suggested one-rein stopping and or circling him until he stops. I did try a one-rein stop on him at one point (after our trotting incident), and he did stop, but he kind of jumped sideways a little like he was ticked off that I asked him to stop like that.


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

Drill, drill, drill walk/whoa transitions. 

You want your seat, legs, and voice to give the whoa cue, and enforce it with the reins. To train you can try this - 

Walk with purpose to a fence, dont allow your horse to veer right or left. Just as you get to the fence, say "whoa" firmly and deeply, sit deep on you pockets, and pull lightly with the reins. Repeat about 100 times throughout your ride. Go circle a barrel, come to the fence and whoa. Go bend through some serpentines, come to the fence and whoa... etc.

Do this everytime you ride. Say Whoa everytime you are on the ground with him and need him to stop. If he doesn't stop promptly at the whoa command on the ground, back him up sharply a few steps. Whoa is super important... and that lesson cannot be overdone.

After a while, ride him off the fence until he gets tired and starts looking for a stopping point, then do your seat/whoa verbal cue and see if he stops without rein pressure. If he doesn't, ask for a few back steps, then move him off again and repeat. Soon he will stop with just your voice and seat.

Hope that helps, Kris


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Thanks, Kris. We're going to be working mostly on stopping all this week since he's actually pretty good at everything else.

He is a pro at halting on the ground. You don't even have to tell him "ho" or "whoa." If you stop, he stops. End of story. I worked on nothing but ground work for the first month and a half I had him because he knew nothing but how to be haltered and walk next to you on a lead rope.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

There's actually three common ways a horse will stop.

The first is in balance and stopping the feet in order 1-2,3-4.

The second is common when a lot of groundwork has been done, particularly NH style and that's where the horse will brace the front two legs to stop.

The third is where the horse will stop with his hind coming under, go lighter on the front, then replace the front 1,2.

1 and 3 are fine. Most commonly I see 2. This creates problems once a rider is included in the equation. The horse is effectively falling forward and the extra weight of the rider adds to the momentum. One reining etc will unfortunately just create further bracing and eventual stiffness and avoidance in other ways.

Have you ever tried stopping from the chest? Or chest long-reining? Especially when you have a helper this will quickly teach the horse to halt correctly and squarely and in balance.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Are you talking about how he stops on the ground? When he stops on the ground it depends on how quickly I stopped, but if I gradually stop (not a sudden feet planted stop) he will stop the first way and stand nice and square from the start. If I stop suddenly, he will stop the third way and will square himself up. I've never seen him stop the second way, unless I'm totally mis-reading what you're describing. 

I've never heard of stopping from the chest or chest long-reining. Can you explain it, please? (I would google, but I can't use search engines on my computer).


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Ace80908 said:


> Drill, drill, drill walk/whoa transitions.
> 
> You want your seat, legs, and voice to give the whoa cue, and enforce it with the reins. To train you can try this -
> 
> Walk with purpose to a fence, dont allow your horse to veer right or left. Just as you get to the fence, say "whoa" firmly and deeply, sit deep on you pockets, and pull lightly with the reins. Repeat about 100 times throughout your ride. Go circle a barrel, come to the fence and whoa. Go bend through some serpentines, come to the fence and whoa... etc.


I love this way of getting a stop, fences are your friend, also improves your skill at riding straight!!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> So here's what he does now. When I ask him to stop, I apply pressure straight back on the reins (pull them to my hips) and say "Ho."
> 
> So, what can I do to stop him from pulling through the bit?
> 
> .



You might want to stop pulling on the reins to start.


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## touchofsleep (Mar 9, 2011)

Interested in hearing some thoughts. I had the smae issue yesterday. I let my gelding ride outside the arena with a snaffle. BIG mistake. Probably a big dumb idea on my part


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Spyder said:


> You might want to stop pulling on the reins to start.


Sorry, that's how I was taught to stop a horse? 

You pull back (not up) with as little pressure as is required and slowly increase the pressure (if needed) until they stop. You also sit back (on your pockets, as Ace put it) and give the verbal cue at the same time. You make it sound like I'm just wantonly cranking back on the reins, which is not the case.

What I described is what the trainer told me to do when we were riding on Friday and that's what I observed her doing when she was working with Aires for his first four rides. I'm not yanking back on the reins (which is what the BO wanted me to do). It's steady, increasing pressure until he gives to the bit and stops. That's what my friend who was working with me and my old gelding taught me to do as well.


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## MoodIndigo (Oct 18, 2010)

Spyder said:


> You might want to stop pulling on the reins to start.


Agreed with Spyder. Putting a constant, holding pressure on the horses mouth is going to make his mouth rock hard and I mean, it hurts!! How would you like a metal thing pulling your mouth?

To ask him to stop, you need to do a series of half-halts and/or give-and-take motions.

You'll see, it works well with all horses.

Do what you're doing now, except give and take on the reins as you're asking him to stop. Don't use a constant pulling pressure! Oh and also, sit tall, definitely don't lean back.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Sorry, that's how I was taught to stop a horse?
> 
> You pull back (not up) with as little pressure as is required and slowly increase the pressure (if needed) until they stop. You also sit back (on your pockets, as Ace put it) and give the verbal cue at the same time. You make it sound like I'm just wantonly cranking back on the reins, which is not the case.
> 
> What I described is what the trainer told me to do when we were riding on Friday and that's what I observed her doing when she was working with Aires for his first four rides. I'm not yanking back on the reins (which is what the BO wanted me to do). It's steady, increasing pressure until he gives to the bit and stops. That's what my friend who was working with me and my old gelding taught me to do as well.


As Mood referred to that is something that should not ever be taught for all the reasons Mood stated. I will also add the constant pressure as you are doing usually CAUSES the horse to just bear through the aids and soon enough you won't stop your horse as they become dead to the aids.

Rough aids will never replace thoughtful CORRECT training..


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Drafty

Firstly ideally a horse should be controlled with weight aids alone. (pelvis and seat bone) Then they can be supported with the legs and finally for certain manoeuvres the hands. Stopping should not be one of these from a classical or harmony riding style. 

Many people lean back due to incorrect understanding of the seat bone and pelvic cues. The normal way to stop a horse is with a slight angling of the pelvis backwards. The back however remains upright. It sometimes to help to illustrate the exaggerated motion by thinking of absorbing a bowling ball thrown at the stomach.

Similarly many people learn to lean back for a back up. Again it makes no sense. A forward 'lean' is the intuitive cue for a backup.

Any talk of squeezing cheekbones for stopping or impulsion is again not ideal, it immediately causes stiffness and rigidity in the riders seat which is exactly what we do not want.

As for chest driving, it's the same as long reining except you do not attach to the head. If you imagine that for a horse to stop correctly the chest will slow, as the hind comes underneath, then the front feet will find their place as the horse slows and balances. If we stop from the front, then the horse is bracing and fighting momentum. This often causes them to stumble or overbalance such that they stop braced, or overrun. Neither is ideal and neither leads to a correct square stop. This also in turn then reflects in other areas such as the canter and transitions.

Finally in anything such as this, just as with chest reining, ask and release, ask and release. Let the horse learn to stop balanced. Fences are fine but if used regularly will cause bracing, rotation of the shoulder and all the associated problems. It will not lead to a hind under stop.

The biggest challenge to developing weight aids are the riders seat needs to be good, and the saddle. Western saddles often have too much bulk and interfere with the cues. English saddles often sit too far forwards putting weight on the forehand and can elevate the seat too much too. This is why people have come to rely on the reins so commonly. Weight aids on the other hand are very intuitive and most horses respond to them with little training simply because we are influencing them in direct relation to what we are asking. That is why they are ideal. On the other hand many rein and leg cues are confusing to the horse as they oppose what we are asking.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I find that loose ring snaffles are great for arena work, but aren't as effective in open spaces. I use a D-ring french link when out hacking. The french link piece is still there making for a nice mild bit, while the D-ring cheek pieces have a little more bite than and O-ring which can slide right through the mouth.

Yes, pulling on the reins is a bad idea. There's no way you'll win a leverage battle with a horse. Sounds like, while your horse wasn't really happy with the one rein stop, he sort of knows it. I would say practice that some more until it's second nature for both of you. With the smarter horses, once they know you have that tool, they just stop trying to run off since they already know the end result.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

This is kind of a general thought, but a horse does anything we ask him to do because we ask him to think that way, and he will go that way. We don't make him move or cease moving by the shear pressure of our leg or our hands, via a bit. we make the horse think about doing the thing we ask him to do. HE gets his mind there, HE positions his feet and body in the way that is needed and HE will either obey or not and only if his mind is connected to the rider via the aids/cues. The aids/cues don't make the horse's body do these things, they make the horse think about doing them and then the horse himself does it.

Same dif? Not really. you can have a horse stop by a lot of different methods if you can get the hrose to know what you are asking, and to think aobut it with you and move his legs as needed. For you to get him thinking with you means that you have to use pressure and release. plain and simple. If you just apply pressure and release rythmically, the horse does not know what earned the release, so if you want him to know what signal means what thing, the release must come ONLY when the desired thought/behaviour has occured in the horse. Backing him up, if the horse doesn't think "I am going to go backward now, so I'll shift my weight back and lift my front feet and move them back" (I know, they don't think in English). And the rider wathches the horse's brain (the ears and eyes) and when he sees that brain going the direction he wants, then RELEASE! and only then.

In all honesty , you might be able to use any kind of cue you wanted to train this in a horse, we just have found the reins to be useful and I will agree that the weight aid is probably the most natural for the horse.

I think I just ranted. Sorry.


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## touchofsleep (Mar 9, 2011)

You leanred right about pulling the reins forward and not up. However, try pulling and releasing. I'm glad I cam to this thread because I completely forgot the pull and release method when I moved my gelding home and out of training. Definitely going to try this. I moved my gelding in to a snaffle from a correction and he completely ignored me in it outside of the arena yesterday.. I couldn't ride in the round pen because it was flooded. Big mistake. Good luck. Let mek now how things work because i'm interested in some new techniques.


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## touchofsleep (Mar 9, 2011)

Spyder said:


> As Mood referred to that is something that should not ever be taught for all the reasons Mood stated. I will also add the constant pressure as you are doing usually CAUSES the horse to just bear through the aids and soon enough you won't stop your horse as they become dead to the aids.
> 
> Rough aids will never replace thoughtful CORRECT training..


 YES! I'm so glad I came in here. I forgot all abut this once I moved home. I can't wait to try it tomorrow and see if he responds.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

agreed with tinyliny.

poorly timed rhythmic pressure (pulling and releasing) is just as "deadening" to the aids as poorly timed steady pressure.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> For you to get him thinking with you means that you have to use pressure and release. plain and simple. If you just apply pressure and release rythmically, the horse does not know what earned the release, so if you want him to know what signal means what thing, the release must come ONLY when the desired thought/behaviour has occured in the horse.


I have been using pressure and release, but NOT rhythmically. I only release when he does what I ask. The problem is, he isn't making the connection (yet) between what I'm asking and what he needs to do. That's why I was asking for help.

Doe, I get what you're saying about weight cues. I try VERY hard not to lean back, but to shift my weight back in the saddle. I've tried the leaning back thing a couple of times on dead-broke horses and quickly figured out that it did nothing but throw me out of balance and cause the horse to go "What the heck are you doing up there?!" 

Also, not sure if it makes a difference or not, but I ride in an Australian stock saddle.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I have been using pressure and release, but NOT rhythmically. I only release when he does what I ask. The problem is, he isn't making the connection (yet) between what I'm asking and what he needs to do. That's why I was asking for help.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I will concentrate more on not releasing until he fully stops. I thought I was not releasing until he fully stopped, but you're right, I may have been giving in to his "almost" stops (or maybe just releasing too soon before he's fully stopped...not sure how to word that lol). The last time I rode him (on Friday), I was still getting used to him and how he moves, but I think I'm to the point now where I can concentrate on something other than staying in the saddle (that mare bucking me off did a NUMBER on my confidence and having the BO yelling instructions at me the first time I rode Aires did NOT help at all).

The "ask, tell, require" might work for us, actually. I learned this from my friend who helped me with my old gelding (who I had to retrain from the ground up because he was a horror). "First you ask nicely. Then you ask a bit more insistently. Then you make them do what you want" (her words). Translating this into asking him to stop, that means giving him the cues (seat/reins/verbal) as I would if he were trained completely and if he doesn't respond, then giving the cues more insistently. If he still doesn't respond, keep the cues/pressure on until he DOES respond. Right?

Thanks for trying to help me, guys. I'm not wrong-headed or as "dumb" as I may sound, but I am a mostly self-taught rider, so I sometimes need things explained to me a little more than if I'd had lessons.


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