# "Driving is more dangerous"



## churumbeque

KylieHuitema said:


> My friend bought a cart for her horse, that 16 years ago, was in the national top 10 for driving in Arab Nationals. Her horse loves driving. She had her horse pull the cart at the end of her wedding.
> 
> But now, she won't drive at all, because it is way too dangerous. Too risky, the horse could flip, bolt, etc etc. Yet she continues to ride, even though the same thing coukd happen, just on top of the horse.
> 
> Do you think riding and driving are equally dangerous, or one is more dangerous than the other?


 I think driving can be more dangerous because of the inexperienced getting in the cart with out knowing the proper safety techniques and they panic if something goes wrong or drive a horse before it is trained properly. 
A lot of people use a parade as there 1st time out in public and that scares me also.

If you fall off riding, the horse may run back to the barn or stop soon. If you fall out of the cart and the horse is loose it is much more dangerous to the innocent bystanders because something is chasing them which is wider and will bounce and hit things which will make it keep running.

If a horse is loose other horses should be ok but when a horse is loose and pulling a cart it can be upsetting to other horses.


----------



## Incitatus32

They both have their dangers. Personally I've always seen driving as just a little bit more dangerous than riding (because of the distance of contact). With that said though, an experienced person in the cart is more than capable of handling it just as well as a person riding. 

I've been in carts with horses who throw ungodly fits and me and my boss have handled it as well as we could when riding the horse. The problem I see is when people who haven't ever driven, consider it 'the same' or 'too similar' to riding and just jump in and go. Driving is another ball game when something happens because: 

In riding an accident: you have to account for you, the horse, getting clear of the horse, your surroundings, and where your horse will go. 

In driving an accident: you have to account for you, the horse, the cart, getting clear of the horse AND cart, your surroundings, the cart flipping, where your horse will go, where your cart will go and if you have to (like if the horse has slipped and fallen) how to extract the horse quickly from everything and get it under control. 

In some ways I think that driving requires you to know the horse inside and out and know what they're going to do and what stops them. But riding can be just as dangerous as driving. The only bad thing I've ever had was when we had a horse bolt and then slip and fall in the traces. It took me and my boss about thirty seconds to have him clear of harness, cart and people. She always instilled in me that driving requires you to act quick and determinedly and know that gravity doesn't care about where you are in relation to the cart. So long as you know how to react in a situation I think it's just as safe as riding.


----------



## SlideStop

I'd say driving for sure, for all the reasons listed above.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## laurapratt01

Country Pleasure Driving Class Gone Wrong! - YouTube
I think that driving is more dangerous for both the horse and the driver and bystanders... this video shows why I think that!


----------



## Saddlebag

Why not look at all the classes where this doesn't happen. If we succumb to overthinking everything we may as well chain ourselves to the bed and not venture past the bedroom door.


----------



## SlideStop

Saddlebag said:


> Why not look at all the classes where this doesn't happen. If we succumb to overthinking everything we may as well chain ourselves to the bed and not venture past the bedroom door.


Agreed! If he has been otherwise safe in the past I don't see any reason to discontinue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KatieQ

Well that is an absolutely horrifying video, and I am glad you posted it because I was considering taking up driving as a "retirement hobby"! I've changed my mind now!


----------



## GreySorrel

KatieQ said:


> Well that is an absolutely horrifying video, and I am glad you posted it because I was considering taking up driving as a "retirement hobby"! I've changed my mind now!


your going to let one video change your mind? Here are some photo's for you to consider before you decide:

Wouldn't this be fun to trot down a back dirt road? The steady foot fall of your favorite mount, the crispness of fall, watching your horses ears as they go along?


Before you say that driving is "bad", if you look close, there is a 3 year old little boy in my lap helping me drive two 1800lb Percheron mares hitched to a wagon. Not all driving animals are high strung or hot or going to cause a wreck:


First time I drove a team, my mare Smoke and my mentor who is on the box, Bob Brennan, with his mare Rosie, in an arena, having only about 16hrs of driving time with a team and a wagon with no undercut, I placed 2nd:


In an arena, it was windy, the loud speakers were right above us on either side and a large crowd, I am on the lines. Doing public education with our mares, you can tell they are so upset :


The point I am trying to make, don't let one video of a horse we don't know the history of, how far along in it's training, how long it has been driving, etc. put you off on a sport that yes, holds its dangers, but so does everything else we do with our equines. A well trained driving horse, or team, can bring so much joy to you, your family, grandchildren and children a like. I don't compete anymore, nor do we do public education, we just enjoy. You develop a bond with your driving horse, they trust you and you trust them and when that happens, there isn't anything you can't do. I have been in situations with my mare's that yes, I should of thought it out a bit more, but....I trusted them to get me through the rough trail and the tight spot, I had the knowledge to get us out as well and we did it. Have I had a bad wreck and/or witnessed them? Absolutely. 

Go driving with someone you know and who is skilled.


----------



## 40232

Saddlebag said:


> Why not look at all the classes where this doesn't happen. If we succumb to overthinking everything we may as well chain ourselves to the bed and not venture past the bedroom door.


I want to know the statistics compared to riding on how many accidents in both.. If I didn't do anything that is considered dangerous with horses, I wouldn't be riding, driving, in hand, or even being near them! I would rather take the risk of danger than live in fear.. Last winter I ended up rigging a sled to my horse and taught him how to pull it.. Even with my 5 year old brother driving it!


----------



## 40232

KatieQ said:


> Well that is an absolutely horrifying video, and I am glad you posted it because I was considering taking up driving as a "retirement hobby"! I've changed my mind now!


That horse was stung by a bee. It was not the horse's fault


----------



## Freemare

First off let me tell you a few things about that video. 

1. That driver should have known that the horse was upset and never entered the ring, or called a time out and called his handler in. 
2. When the horse got lose they should have taken all the horses out. Why? Beacuse that horse knows safty in numbers. The other horses are in the middle and he wants to be with them. 
3. Once the horses are out. Just let me run himself down on the outside of the arena.


Now let me tell you are few things about driving that i love. My horse was just a riding horse before I started to drive. Now he drives. Here are a few pictures of my horse and myself driving at a local driving show. I took champion for the year. 









Here is the first time I ever drove a horse. This is tex and tory. A pair of driving horses my trainer (on the back) shows at CDE's. Sadly tory has passed away a few years ago. So now Tex (the lighter one) is a single. 









Here is a picture of me and my horse at this years Darby and pace marathon. We have a lot of fun things with can do for driving such as ADTs and CDEs. Let alone the amount of driving clinics and shows.


----------



## Freemare

Here are some good videos to watch.


----------



## Corporal

Driving is more dangerous than riding bc the horse's vision is more limited bc of blinders and he cannot shy away bc of the cart/carriage.
That being said a bombproof cart horse and a bombproof riding horse are harder and harder to come by.
It doesn't deter me for wanted Buster Brown to get trained to drive next year.


----------



## 40232

If the video I'm thinking of, the one of the arab cart class, I seen it on one of the tv shows on Animal Planet. I think Untamed and Uncut? There was bees by the fence and that horse happened to get stung by one. I don't think thats really a fair video to say that driving is way more dangerous than riding.. The horse could have easily bolted under saddle by being stung too.


----------



## Cat

KatieQ said:


> Well that is an absolutely horrifying video, and I am glad you posted it because I was considering taking up driving as a "retirement hobby"! I've changed my mind now!


You can find horrifying riding videos as well. Do you really think that type of accident is common at shows? That people risk their lives, expensive horses, and high-dollar carts? 

Anything horse-related is dangerous. You just need to take steps to minimize those risks. Make sure the horse is well trained and prepared for the situation you are putting them in, etc. 

I'm just getting into driving and decided to start small with minis. So far it has been a blast!


----------



## Incitatus32

KatieQ said:


> Well that is an absolutely horrifying video, and I am glad you posted it because I was considering taking up driving as a "retirement hobby"! I've changed my mind now!


Just to sway your fears, there's a 98 year old man who STILL comes out to the barn to drive his horse. That horse is as bombproof as it can get and even when it does do a small spook the man just has to say 'easy' and the horse comes right back and plods along. So long as you have a good trainer who can teach you and the horse, and good horse; driving is probably the best "retirement hobby" for people!


----------



## Zexious

There is risk in all things equine. I think we all realize it, and are ok with it. If I had the right equipment (and a younger horse! xD) I'd be down to give driving a go.


----------



## SEAmom

I love driving! I don't think it's any more or less dangerous than riding. It's just a different set of risks. 

Now, harness racing is a little scarier, to me, because you get buckled into the cart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## laurapratt01

I just wanted to clarify that I think that driving has the POTENTIAL to be more dangerous than riding. 
The video that I posted is one that I accidentally viewed soon after training my horse to drive. Boy, did it scare the crap out of me! I hadn't thought much about the risk of driving, at least not in that it differed much from riding but this video showed me that it does. 
There's so much more to account for (a cart, possible passengers, limited vision by the horse due to wearing blinders, less contact ect.). 
That being said, I think that the danger involved in driving correlates directly with the disposition and training of your horse. My horse is dead calm, super steady and as close to literally bombproof as they get. I feel just as safe driving him as I do riding him. I think that driving is a blast and I wouldn't want to deter anyone from trying it. Just make sure you have a very trustworthy horse and a knowledgeable trainer to guide you.


----------



## Cat

Both riding and driving have the potential to be deadly. One is not more dangerous than the other, just different in how they present those dangers.


----------



## KatieQ

Sorry, not trying to stir things up here and I still have a goal to learn driving, I have done it before with VERY experienced guidance and well trained horses, but I see it is not something to be taken lightly! It is unfamiliar to me so I do find it a bit scary, especially seeing a scene like that!


----------



## GamingGrrl

Personally, I would never do driving because there's not an easy bail out or emergency dismount. If the horse(s) bolt, you're screwed. It's not like you can leap off or do a one rein stop. I'm too much of a weenie for it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Roux

*Don't know anything about driving:*

So I watched the video and now I have a few dumb questions ( I know NOTHING about driving) so sorry if this is really stupid?

1. In almost all tack that I use or have seen used there is a "quick release" or "breakaway" function to the tack. For example leather reins break if a horse steps through them so that way they can get free and not hurt. 
Do carts (sorry if that is the wrong term) not have a quick release if a horse gets in trouble? This might be dumb because obviously if the cart is being pulled you would not want it to break free but something that has can break away if the cart tips over etc?

2. When the first horse became upset would it have been too difficult to get the other horses to leave the arena to get them out of harms way? Most of the horses looked like they were handling the commotion well and looked like they could have exited safely. What about un-tacking them quickly and just getting a halter on so that why if the did spook it was without the cart? 

3. Wouldn't it have been better to let the horse run itself out or just stop on its own, the first horse was obviously using its panicked brain but with so many of those men (not trying to criticize but I thought that made it worse) chasing it and yelling it is no wonder why it kept panicking. Could they have tried to keep it on the out side and set up an inner perimeter to keep it from wrecking into the other horses instead of jumping in front of it?

4. At the end did the man with the rope do something to break the cart free from the horse? Does any one know if the second horse ever got up, it looks like it tripped on its tack? 

5. What kind of horses were they - they were stunningly beautiful. 

6. What about a pickup man or an out rider. If there was a saddle horse in the arena could it have joined up with the runaway and brought it down to a trot, walk and then stand still? I'm thinking like a pickup horse in rodeo or an out rider in TB racing but then again with all the rigging of the carts it would be horrible if another horse and rider were to get caught up in it. I have seen that work with panicked horses before but obviously not one dragging a cart and everything. 

I have seen wrecks in rodeo, jumping etc... it seems like here it was a green horse that was nervous and then became a domino effect of one bad thing after another. Could have happened in any equestrian sport.

As far as dangerousness goes I agree with Enduku horses all ways have the potential of being dangerous, english, western, driving etc. 

It's a risk we take but do everything to try to minimize.

Sorry another question:

One of the horses looks like its tail is pinned to the cart? Is that to keep it from dragging or getting caught up?


----------



## SlideStop

Honestly, hindsite is always 20/20. I assume from this they have maybe put and accident plan in place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## redpony

SEAmom said:


> I love driving! I don't think it's any more or less dangerous than riding. It's just a different set of risks.
> 
> Now, harness racing is a little scarier, to me, because you get buckled into the cart.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Harness drivers are NOT buckled into the bike (cart), they sit on a small seat with a low back, maybe 1-2 inches high. Their legs are up in metal stirrups that are placed along the shafts. Balance and the slight pressure they create pushing on the stirrups is what keeps them in the seat. Not all seats are made that way either, our training cart has a flat seat and I have very short legs, shorter than the stirrups can adjust, I can only rest my toes on them. It's always a thrill, lol!! I don't believe that there are any more inherent risks involved in driving than riding, I do both and have been injured more riding and on the ground than driving :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## laurapratt01

Roux those are all good questions... Honestly, I don't know the answer to most of them. 
I don't believe there is such thing a breakaway equipment in driving, beside the fact that a lot of harnesses are made with leather. Possibly someone doing combined driving knows more about it- it seems like if any driving equipment would breakaway it would be combined driving equipment.
I think that the people in that arena could definitely have handled the situation much better but like slidestop mentioned, hindsight is 20/20.
If I were in that situation I would have unhitched my horse from the cart and tried to lead my horse out of the arena as quickly as I could. That being said, I made that a plan in case of a chaotic situation because I have seen this video but who knows if that would even be a reasonable thing to attempt to do if I were ever in that circumstance. I really don't know..
I'm not going to stop driving because of this video but I will be more cautious while I'm driving... I recognize the danger involved but I trust my horse and our relationship enough to take that risk.


----------



## KatieQ

I think the men were yelling and waving their arms in an attempt to keep it on the outside of the arena, away from the people and other horses in the middle (it didn't work very well, though!) Obviously it was in such a blind panic it wanted to be with the other horses, poor thing! I hope it didn't get hurt when they threw it- I noticed it was still down at the end of the video, although it was obviously exhausted and hyperventilating. and one of the scariest parts was when that first horse trampled the man near the rail. Heck, the whole thing was pretty scary! I think a vet with a tranquilizer gun would have been useful there.


----------



## churumbeque

Freemare said:


> First off let me tell you a few things about that video.
> 
> Why? Beacuse that horse knows safty in numbers. The other horses are in the middle and he wants to be with them.
> 3. Once the horses are out. Just let me run himself down on the outside of the arena.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. That driver should have known that the horse was upset and never entered the ring, or called a time out and called his handler in.


 *I don't think there was any indication of a problem before the class. I understand it was a very experienced horse and when on to drive with out incident.*
2. When the horse got lose they should have taken all the horses out. 
Why? Because that horse knows safety in numbers. The other horses are in the middle and he wants to be with them. 
*How do you propose they do that? If you headed for the gate and the horse came up on you and hit you or followed you out of the gate then what? I could see a lot of drivers not having the confidence to exit safely at the proper time and the gate would have to be open a fairly long time to get horse and vehicle out all while one is running up on you.*


----------



## michaelvanessa

*rideing and driveing axedents*

well i have had 2 crashes i was knocked out once i had no hat on i hit a steel 5 bar farm gate as the cart toppled over.
it was because an old motorbike back fired.
i was on one wheel as he bolted in to the yard and hit a rock and the above happend i was draged with the cart on its side knocked out and fell out on to the electric fence.
well i got zaped a number of times the guy who was rideing the motor bike started shakeing me as he came on to the yard.
i was heaverley concussed and could see tricky makeing his way to the car park on the yard i started to run and was weaveing all over the place.
thay herded him in to a paddock and thay cought him.
i was cut and bleeding from my head and hands and knees.
rideing i have one pony slip over on me and crushed my foot in the stirrop iron and my anckle was jet black.
when i first started rideing i kept geting bucked off and we would go for a canter over tottenham mashes snowy would stop dead and the saddle would go up her neck as she put her head down i would go crashing to the floor i can see it now the girth round her four feet.
she bucked me in to a tree boy did that hurt.
so i intorduced the crupper i had a d fitted on to the saddle.
no matter what i did or how tite the girth was it moved.
well she was a little bit of a bronco and the crupper did the job and we had a great 8 years of rideing.
aldo lungeing dragged along the floor twice.
and the latest one draged in the paddock with a lead rope as a wrist loop well i was tired he was fresh and that combination dont mix.
i have got a fractured shoulder and have got 95% movement back now.
i will say this i dont bounce like i use to im geting old lol i think my body is telling me something.
its all the abuce of work and horse rideing in all weathers over the years i supose has taken a toll on my body im a bit stiff and arthrittic a bit but i carry on.
would i change any of the above no i have enjoyed every minuit of it and i would not change it for the world so i just carry on and enjoy what i have got.
i was going to hang up my reins when tricky passes on but i had quincy passed on to me so more time in the cart and the saddle lol so my horse years have been extended again.


----------



## michaelvanessa

*the video*

if its the one im thinking of there was a wild bee nest there or wasp nest and the horses were geting stung by accounts thats what started it off im going to check it out if its the same class were the axedents happend.


----------



## michaelvanessa

*video*

yes its the same one i was told on a number of times by verious people that there was eather bees or wasps present and thats what started it off i had this discussion with a few people on here who pointed out the bees or wasps and the horses got stung aparantley.
all sports activatys with horses have a high risks even if you dont have a horse walking in the street is just as dangerous with cars ect.
what would you rather do enjoy life ride and drive or vegitate in front of the tv cucooned in your own little world as the world passes you by.


----------



## 4horses

I think the incident with the arabian driving class gone wrong was preventable. 

If anyone pays close attention- look at the tail length on those horses! In order to keep their tails in pristine condition, those horses are often stalled. Being arabians, they do not get enough exercise when stalled, and come into the arena all hyper and ready to go. I don't see why most people would want to drive a horse like an arabian (as they are so high strung), and I don't see why it makes any sense to stall them all the time...

For those arabian people on here, I am sure there are some that do well at it, but most Arabians are not what I consider suitable for driving. I won't ever teach my TB to drive either- No thanks! 

Driving should be reserved for a horse that is dead quiet and only spooks in place. The vast majority of horses do not match that description! 

The only reason I am considering driving with my mare is because her spook is to flinch and stop. The only time she threw me off was when she stepped on the hose and it blasted on underneath her. She jumped forward a few strides and stopped and I slid off her hind end. She was only 2 when that happened. :wink: 

Her reaction to being ground driven with poles? None. Her reaction to guns? None. If she looses the pole when ground driving, what does she do? She stops. If a deer jumps straight out of the bushes at her, what does she do? She stops. That is what you want in a good driving horse.


----------



## ButtInTheDirt

Yes, driving has the _potential_ to be far more dangerous than riding is. It is so much easier to cowboy a horse into riding than into driving. Reason being, as long as you can sit on the horse, you can 'break' it, according to certain methods. No credible trainer is going to hook a cart to an untouched horse and just hold on. It takes a lot of work to get a horse responsive enough where putting a cart on them is even a good idea. 

I recently hitched my mare to a cart for the first time. She did wonderfully, just needed to learn how to turn in the shafts. Before I even thought of putting the cart on her, I had her dragging tires, logs, chains, drags, etc to get her used to as much as I could. She has a pretty solid whoa, and if she doesn't understand something, or things start falling apart, she'll stop. Both good and bad, but I much prefer her to stop at the sign of trouble than get frustrated or flighty. I had her pulling a little 'wagon' that is the size of one small hay bale and we squeezed between a building and a metal trailer. When we turned, the wagon caught the trailer and made wretched noises. She took a step, the stopped to give me time to get the stuff untangled. Some horses are a bit more wise as driving horses than others, plain and simple.


----------



## SorrelHorse

If it means anything I'm scared to death of driving, but I'll hop on most any horse that's nutters...


----------



## littrella

There are dangers in almost anything we do. What matter's is getting past our fears & doing what we enjoy.


----------



## 40232

4horses said:


> I think the incident with the arabian driving class gone wrong was preventable.
> 
> If anyone pays close attention- look at the tail length on those horses! In order to keep their tails in pristine condition, those horses are often stalled. Being arabians, they do not get enough exercise when stalled, and come into the arena all hyper and ready to go. I don't see why most people would want to drive a horse like an arabian (as they are so high strung), and I don't see why it makes any sense to stall them all the time...
> 
> For those arabian people on here, I am sure there are some that do well at it, but most Arabians are not what I consider suitable for driving. I won't ever teach my TB to drive either- No thanks!
> 
> Driving should be reserved for a horse that is dead quiet and only spooks in place. The vast majority of horses do not match that description!


First, arabians are not stalled ALL THE TIME. Some trainers keep them stalled, but they can go out to pasture with those tails. Tails are usually up and tied in a wrap to keep them safe. 

Also, these arabs probably got out every day for exercise. It is a LARGE show they are at, so they have been worked much of their life. They love love love their jobs.

Again, the horse was stung by a bee. See if you can put bees on your horse and have them not spook.


----------



## Freemare

I do know the arab in the video was OK. He got some cuts and bumps and was put on stall rest for sometime.


----------



## JeepnGirl

KatieQ said:


> Well that is an absolutely horrifying video, and I am glad you posted it because I was considering taking up driving as a "retirement hobby"! I've changed my mind now!



Might as well give up driving cars too. Or fly. Or....well... living. Everything has danger to it. That's life.

That was an interesting video to see. If I were there, I think I would have brought my horse to the middle and unhitched. I am still determined to learn to drive.


----------



## AlliNar

Roux said:


> So I watched the video and now I have a few dumb questions ( I know NOTHING about driving) so sorry if this is really stupid?
> 
> 1. In almost all tack that I use or have seen used there is a "quick release" or "breakaway" function to the tack. For example leather reins break if a horse steps through them so that way they can get free and not hurt.
> Do carts (sorry if that is the wrong term) not have a quick release if a horse gets in trouble? This might be dumb because obviously if the cart is being pulled you would not want it to break free but something that has can break away if the cart tips over etc?
> 
> 2. When the first horse became upset would it have been too difficult to get the other horses to leave the arena to get them out of harms way? Most of the horses looked like they were handling the commotion well and looked like they could have exited safely. What about un-tacking them quickly and just getting a halter on so that why if the did spook it was without the cart?
> 
> 3. Wouldn't it have been better to let the horse run itself out or just stop on its own, the first horse was obviously using its panicked brain but with so many of those men (not trying to criticize but I thought that made it worse) chasing it and yelling it is no wonder why it kept panicking. Could they have tried to keep it on the out side and set up an inner perimeter to keep it from wrecking into the other horses instead of jumping in front of it?
> 
> 4. At the end did the man with the rope do something to break the cart free from the horse? Does any one know if the second horse ever got up, it looks like it tripped on its tack?
> 
> 5. What kind of horses were they - they were stunningly beautiful.
> 
> 6. What about a pickup man or an out rider. If there was a saddle horse in the arena could it have joined up with the runaway and brought it down to a trot, walk and then stand still? I'm thinking like a pickup horse in rodeo or an out rider in TB racing but then again with all the rigging of the carts it would be horrible if another horse and rider were to get caught up in it. I have seen that work with panicked horses before but obviously not one dragging a cart and everything.
> 
> I have seen wrecks in rodeo, jumping etc... it seems like here it was a green horse that was nervous and then became a domino effect of one bad thing after another. Could have happened in any equestrian sport.
> 
> As far as dangerousness goes I agree with Enduku horses all ways have the potential of being dangerous, english, western, driving etc.
> 
> It's a risk we take but do everything to try to minimize.
> 
> Sorry another question:
> 
> One of the horses looks like its tail is pinned to the cart? Is that to keep it from dragging or getting caught up?


I don't know the answers to all of these, but I have been driving carriages in downtown Dallas for about four years now, so I might be able to help you a bit.

First of all, there is no "quick release" equipment unless you modify your harness. We use a lot of snaps and things that would break if a horse got hung up since most of our harnesses are made with biothane as opposed to leather. 

In my experience, granted my driving is all done in the city as opposed to in arenas and on trails, but typically the horses act more like "what's wrong with him" as opposed to "Bob's freaking out omg end of the world everybody spook!" I didn't watch that particular video, but I have seen others that I'm certain are similar, and I would think to file everyone in the class out and deal with the runaway. He's toting a cart that could very well get hung up on another participant's vehicle if he got too close. One out of harms way, it would be easy to unhitch and halter to be safe.

In regards to chasing the horse, I understand they were trying to get the horse to slow down, but when your horse dumps you and takes off, if you yell and tell him to woah, is he going to? No. My OTTB gelding loves me so much he grooms me and comes when I call him in the pasture, but if he gets loose and I say "Sammy woah!" all he thinks is "crap mom's really ****ed I'm not going near that!" Not to mention the horse, is already in a panicked state. An outrider sounds like a great idea for these situations. I'm not well versed in the competitive driving wields, so I don't have much insight for the rest of your questions, but hopefully I helped some!


----------



## AlliNar

Also on the subject of the original post, is driving dangerous? It can be. It's very different from riding in a lot of ways. When I first got hired to drive carriages downtown, I went in with the impression that it wouldn't be that different and it would be easy to learn. It is easy to learn, but it's also VERY different. It amazes me because we drive horses that you couldn't pay me to ride. The mare I drive at work spooks very easily. She has a habit of rearing in the shafts, she gets very crow hoppy when she's upset about something, and makes the most atrocious faces as we're going down the road. All that being said, I love driving her. She keeps me on my toes and she's the easiest horse to drive when she's not acting up. I don't know how other people drive, but our horses are trained vocally. They understand step means go, woah means stop, even left and right. My gelding doesn't listen to me half as well as our work ponies do. (I say ponies like they aren't Clydesdales and Percherons hehe.)

Really it's just different with it's own inherent risks. If you stay SAFE then you'll absolutely love driving.


----------



## JeepnGirl

Roux said:


> 4. At the end did the man with the rope do something to break the cart free from the horse? Does any one know if the second horse ever got up, it looks like it tripped on its tack?



No, he didn't. If you watch closely, you can see the horse it now straddling the left shaft. So the other shaft is now at an angle with the right shaft pointing to the wall. Since the wall is smooth, if the tip touched the wall, it would slide along, but the gate caught it and stopped the cart dead. The horse broke the harness and then fell when it got caught in his/her legs.

I had to watch that part a couple of times to see why the cart stopped all of the sudden...


----------



## eliduc

Driving is definitely more dangerous. You are basically at the mercy of the horse. If it decides to bolt there is little you can do to stop it. When you are on a horse you can feels it's moods and emotions quicker and can react quicker to stop a bolt or a buck by stopping the horse or by bending it around. A buck or two aboard a horse is not usually too serious for the experienced rider. It can be catastrophic when the horse is hitched to a cart. When a horse is out of control hitched to a cart then the vehicle becomes a deadly weapon. Driving horses need to be trained to a level where their obedience is almost absolutely reflexive. That said, horses that take to the harness willingly are often more easy to train than saddle horses and really enjoy their work.


----------



## michaelvanessa

*is driveing more dangerous.*

well life in genral is crossing the street driveing a car ect.
all you have to rember is with the horse enjoy what you have and if something happens well thats life even ridden or driven horses are a dangerous hobby.
the long and shought of it is whats the risk ?
not willing to take the risk then all i can say is vegitate.
explore and find out for your self.
the main thing is fear of the unone grab the nettle you only live once enjoy and enjoy your horses even if there driven or ridden.
even geting a horse from a paddock or feild can be a risky buisness i ended up with a fracturd shoulder and a kick in the head.
i still love horses and it will take more than that to put me off.


----------



## Inga

The video posted of the Arabian driving class gone wrong was not a common occurrence at shows. Does it happen from time to time? Sure, and horse spook while being ridden as well. The horse in question was stung by bees as others have mentioned. Nobody was really hurt bad and all the horses were alright. It is scary to see and many people make it far worse by panicking. Screaming when the horse runs doesn't calm the horse down. Running in front of a horse that is running out of fear is not a good move (as seen in the video) you can get run over. If everyone had just calmed down, and quit screaming, it would likely have not gotten quite so out of control. 

I will never forget walking into the arena area at the Saddlebred Futurity horse show in Milwaukee. It was the 2 year old fine harness class. Several of them literally tried to jump up into the grand stands, one jumped on the cart in front of him, another flipped over backward all in just a few minutes. Thankfully, there was a lot of experience horse people there and the whole situation was contained and controlled easily. 

Driving is an absolute blast and I highly recommend you do it. I also highly recommend that you take MANY driving lessons and get help with your horse to make sure that it is trained correctly before attempting to drive him/her. Don't let a bad video or even scary stories hold you back. Instead think of what fun you will miss if you don't try it. Get the right help and use the right precautions and have fun.


----------



## jackboy

We'll might as well quite driving a car because of all the wrecks out there


----------



## katiemule

I'm new here, but want to add my thoughts on this:

I learned to ride about 6 years ago (I'll be 59 very soon) and LOVE it! I bought an older horse who knows more than I do and she has basically taught me to ride. (with the help of experienced "horse people" of course).

So, when a friend told me about a team of horses, very experienced, who the owner, due to health reasons, was selling, I had to go and check them out. I'd ridden several times in friends wagons and even did a bit of driving then, so I already knew I loved it as well.

The team hadn't been hooked up in over a year, but when harnessed and hooked up to the wagon, they walked off like they'd just been doing that yesterday. Before his failing health, their owner had put a lot of miles on them, even using them to plow sometimes. Along with some very knowledgable friends, this team has taught me to drive. 

I highly recommend trying it! Especially as we get older, it can be kinder to the back and butt. LOL! But I also agree with everything that's been said above.


----------



## eliduc

I think that a lot of the trouble people get into is by not taking the time or not having the knowledge to properly prepare their horse for the task that in front of it....or in this case behind it. I would never hook a horse that had not been driven for a year to a vehicle without first longing it and ground driving it. Proper longing commands respect from the horse and obedience to your commands. Ground driving is a review and refresher of what the horse did a year ago. _Oh yeah! I remember this. _Then you are not hooking the horse up cold and the chances of a blowup are greatly reduced. Hooking up cold like this is not really fair to the horse either. I belong to a driving club and I cringe every spring when members that should know better hook their horses that haven't been driven for six months up cold and then have control problems. As a club we are supposed to be promotong safety, for crying out loud! That said, this sounds like a wonderful team and evidently the man knew his horses. I also don't get on my horse cold after he has not been ridden for a while. It's just good common sense horsemanship. We have snow and ice on the ground and it's difficult to do anything in below freezing weather. The other day when I went to feed my horse he was so excited to see me that he bucked around his paddock three revolutions. That was when I said, "Fine, if you can do that without falling down you can longe. " By the way, I am 14 years up on you Kati.


----------



## Foxhunter

KylieHuitema said:


> That horse was stung by a bee. It was not the horse's fault


Utter rubbish! 
Even _if _it had been stung by a bee it would not react the way it did and, as it was so uptight when first going around the idiot of a driver should have taken it from the class.

In the UK it is expensive to insure for driving, comes in the same bracket as three day eventing, point to pointing and hunting. This is because there are ao many accidents with carts scratching cars. 

Realistically if a horse gets loose without a rider it is not likely to panic, if a horse gets loose with a cart attached, especially if it has turned over, the chances of panic are a lot higher and a horse running loose with a demon behind it, is not a pretty sight.

I love driving but have not done a great deal.


----------



## churumbeque

Foxhunter said:


> Utter rubbish!
> Even _if _it had been stung by a bee it would not react the way it did and, as it was so uptight when first going around the idiot of a driver should have taken it from the class.
> 
> In the UK it is expensive to insure for driving, comes in the same bracket as three day eventing, point to pointing and hunting. This is because there are ao many accidents with carts scratching cars.
> 
> Realistically if a horse gets loose without a rider it is not likely to panic, if a horse gets loose with a cart attached, especially if it has turned over, the chances of panic are a lot higher and a horse running loose with a demon behind it, is not a pretty sight.
> 
> I love driving but have not done a great deal.


I also get so tired of hearing people say it got stung by a bee. Very unlikely and people are just trying to attribute it to something
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SEAmom

The horse was actually stung by a bee. Just so you all know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Paradise

I have seen worse wrecks with teams than happened in that video. Accidents can and do happen, and I heard from an old remaster (TEAMSTER, sorry, autocorrect) onceif you haven't had a wreck you're either lying or haven't been driving long enough.

I was turned off the whole driving deal for a while just because my dad had a couple bad wrecks when I was younger and the first impression I got from that wasn't the greatest.

Having said that, I also know and have seen a lot of really nice teams and in hindsight my aggressive, loud dad probably wasn't the best match for the high strung horses he had. He's got clydes now and we drive a bit. Now that I'm not having to constantly prepare to die driving is a lot more enjoyable!!

Is driving dangerous? I would say it's no more risky than riding but the difference is when things go wrong, they can turn real bad real fast. There's a lot more that can go wrong with a big team, a lot of harness and a wagon all in the mix. I've seen some bad wrecks but I've also seen a lot of people get hurt riding. I can't say one is all that much more dangerous than the other, there's just a difference in the risks involved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## churumbeque

SEAmom said:


> The horse was actually stung by a bee. Just so you all know.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


how could you know that?


----------



## chas5131

At 70 years, I am taking driving lessons.
Grew up with horses, riding and driving. Have not been around them much since.
If I buy a horse or pony I plan to buy a horse of breed known for being calm that is over 10 years old
and trained to drive. 
That is not easy to find. There is nothing near central Colorado.
Will have to fly somewhere. 
Found an 11 year old Fjord with driving training.


----------



## kiltsrhott

I didn't read through all of the the replies, but I'll throw in my 2 cents anyways. Sorry if I'm repeating anything.

I think riding, driving, and handling horses on the ground are all dangerous. Horses are large, powerful animals, and there is always the potential for something to go terribly wrong, no matter where you are in relation to the horse.

I do, however, think that driving is more dangerous than riding for a number of reasons.

1) The harness and the cart are a lot of things to be attached to the horse. This leaves your horse a lot of opportunity to get caught or tangled if they take a misstep or spook. This is also a lot of moving parts and things trailing along that could further spook a startled horse. Most harnesses are not breakaway. Leather will break under stress, and the shafts can break, but this does take a considerable amount of force, and a horse could definitely get hurt before a harness or cart would break away. As demonstrated in that video. Accidents involving carts can get ugly fast.

2) It's also a lot for you as a passenger to accidentally get caught up in, should something happen. Many carts are not easy to get out of. I have done some driving, mostly with meadow brook carts, and to get in and out of those, you have to very carefully stand up, lift one of the seats, and let yourself out the back. If you have two people sitting in the meadow brook and something goes wrong, you have to fling yourself over the back of the seats or the moving wheels to get out and that would certainly not be an easy feat in an emergency scenario. It's much easier to emergency dismount out of a saddle than your average meadow brook cart. Getting out of a little training sulky is somewhat easier, same with a marathon cart, particularly if you're the one standing in the back, but it's still not easy. And there are other show carts and large wagons that would be even more difficult to escape in a pinch.

3) The third reason I think driving is more dangerous, is limited communication with your horse. When sitting on a horse, you have your seat, leg, weight distribution etc. that you can use to influence your horse's direction and speed. When driving, you must rely more heavily on voice and rein cues because that's all you have. You have less line of communication from your horse to you as well. Often times when riding I can feel my horse's response through my seat before I can see anything happen. While driving, you only have visual cues from your horse, and the feel from the reins, which is distant. When you and your horse have limited communication, you are more likely to be subjected to unexpected behaviors or simple miscommunications.

With all of this said, I also think driving is a lot of fun, and being broke to drive is a great thing to add to any well-rounded horse's resume. It's just another discipline that needs to be taken seriously, and the risks must be acknowledged and appropriate preventative measures taken to avoid injury to horse or handler.


----------



## knightrider

I agree that driving is more dangerous for all the reasons people stated.

A very kind thoroughbred racehorse trainer taught me to drive and to love driving. Then I taught my horses to drive and did a lot of driving, including putting sled runners on my cart and driving in the snow. It was super fun. Part of the fun was what I called the "esoteric", the fact that the communication was so tenuous, just those reins and your voice. I bought an old sulky at Good Will for $100 and had a ton of fun driving my horses with it. 

I covered the sulky and harness with artificial red roses and drove my white appaloosa in a parade. Having ridden in many parades, I can definitely say that driving in a parade was far more worrisome than riding in one.

After several years of successful driving, one day I was getting ready to drive my other appaloosa. For some reason, that day, she was impatient (like horses can be, just in a mood), and as I let go of her to climb in the cart, she took off trotting. I had driven her for years without any problems, and I did not hold the rein as I walked from her head to the cart. But I hadn't held her rein for years, and did not realize she was feeling impatient. I jumped into the cart to stop her, but just then, a car came flying over the hill and hit the cart. It knocked off the wheel, knocked my cart sideways, and then hit my horse. She bolted, the cart turned over with me trapped under the cart. It was a horrifying experience, and I still have flashbacks from time to time remembering the feeling of dragging along the pavement trapped under the cart. She flipped the cart again in her mad bolt, freeing me, turned for home, jumped our four foot fence, and broke her harness on the fence. I lost all the skin on one side of my body (very painful) but otherwise unhurt.

I tried for about a year to re-train her to drive (my white appaloosa had been retired), but at some point in the re-training, she would always panic. She'd go along just fine, slowly making steady progress, and then suddenly blind panic. The third time she panicked, I sold the cart and harness and never drove again.

Just last year I had an opportunity to drive a well trained pony and cart. I thought I'd be super nervous and maybe couldn't even do it, after that horrendous accident, PTSD flashbacks, and failure to re-train my mare. But I was only a tiny bit nervous, loved driving the pony, and did great. I think it had to do more with knowing the pony was dependable and well trained. I now have lively quick Paso Finos that I would not feel comfortable ever trying to drive.

Like other people have said, a driving accident can happen so much more quickly and be much more catastrophic than a riding accident. If I had been mounting my mare, suddenly discovered she was impatient, a car came over the hill, I would have taken my foot out of the stirrup and stopped her, or hopped on quickly and trotted her along the side of the road when the car passed. There would never have been a problem if I had been riding.


----------



## LoriF

I would think that driving is more dangerous than riding but that wouldn't stop me from driving. Just like in riding, you have to make sure that everything and everyone is as prepared for the job as you can make it to reduce accidents. That is with everything in life so.....


----------



## Mulefeather

Anything where we are putting some of the control of our safety into the hands of an animal is always going to have an element of danger. I love driving, but it's a bit like driving a car where the engine is alive. 

Is it MORE dangerous? Done properly, no. How do you think all the Amish get around out here in PA? They certainly don't walk. 

A well-trained driving horse and an experienced driver can get out of most scrapes. Part of driving is having a rapport with the horse, and building trust before you go out into a potentially scary situation. 

The biggest risk in driving is other people. Driving out on the road is one of the most fun and hair-raising experiences of my life! Cars and trucks whizzing by, horse sliding on pavement, going by a world full of scary things! But horses are more adaptable than people give them credit for. 

Out on the road, I'm more frightened that a car will come around a curve too fast and hit us, rather than the horse doing something stupid. I worry more about equipment failing than the horse. 

A lot of people in the old thread mentioned the Arabian video where the horse goes nuts - that's an extreme example of what can go wrong. The horse in the video was being stung by bees, and then "chased" by his cart with no guidance. A horse that's scared and in pain will do just about anything! Amazingly, everyone in that video lived, and as of the early 2000's the driver still owns that horse and drives him.


----------



## Dustbunny

Reasons previously listed have kept me out of a cart and in the saddle for the past 40+ years. Sometimes I think "Maybe a mini...in the pasture" but then I come to my senses. I have friends who love to drive but I prefer a clean getaway if an emergency arises.


----------



## SilverMaple

I think a lot of the 'driving is more dangerous' thought is because so few horses are driven these days, and so much knowledge has been lost. In the past, when nearly every horse was broke to drive, the thought process was that even a horse too dangerous to ride could likely be driven safely -- and horses were not necessarily as well-tempered then as they are now, either. In today's world, where the knowledge is often lacking, as well as more motor vehicles, obstacles, lack of open space, and bystanders who are not well-versed in horses, I think the opposite is true.

I've read several training accounts from relatives and family from the 1880's through the 1930's, and it was commonplace to hitch a team of young horses who had been ground driven or ridden a few times, and simply go down the road or across the countryside. If they ran off, where were they going to go? After 20 or 30 miles, they were usually pretty 'well broke' and someone experienced could drive them. My great-grandfather raised trotting horses for racing/driving and draft horses for farm work, and they'd bring in the 2 y.o's in the spring and within a week have all of them driving. My mom remembers watching him, and he'd not fight the animals, but they'd be harnessed and driving within a few days, and she loved that he'd take her with him (at the age of 5 or 6) once they'd been hitched a few times, and off they'd go on a nice spring day with a picnic lunch and another team tied on behind the buggy or wagon. In the afternoon they'd switch teams and come home. She remembers having a runaway with a single horse hitched to a doctor's buggy only once, and great-grandfather was driving at the time-- he just laughed and let the horse run, simply keeping him along the road. After 5 or 6 miles he slowed to a trot and never bolted again. Stuff that would scare many people today was simply not a big deal to horsemen in the past. She had a saddle pony that she wanted to train to drive, so her dad hitched him to the bobsled alongside a colt he was training, they went around the pasture a few times, then put the pony on the sleigh, drove him around for a half hour, and declared him broke. My mom rode or drove that pony to school every day for years. Never had an issue with him. Draft horse foals grew up alongside their working dams, so by the time they were hitched, had been exposed to everything but actual pulling, and they figured that out quickly. Most of them seemed 'born broke' from what she remembers, simply from being handled and getting experience before they were weaned alongside the dam. Then they were turned out for a couple of years, then brought in, ground driven in harness for a session or two, then put in a hitch with experienced horses. After about a week, two young horses would be teamed together and likely remain so for life. A fractious colt would find himself walking in the furrow during plowing, even if it meant switching him at each end of the field until he settled down. After a few days of that, most horses were ready to go on any sort of farm equipment or wagon you wanted. There's a photo around here somewhere of a percheron team of mares that won something at a fair, and the notation on the back says "Bess and Bell - Fair, 1919. The third time this pair was ever driven. We used them on the farm the rest of their lives and they gave us many foals."

My grandfather and great grandfather were the type to always have a trail of animals following them around-- cats, dogs, horses, chickens, you name it. I wish they had imparted some of that knowledge to me-- I would have loved to have met them.


----------



## Kaifyre

I too think that driving seems to be more dangerous nowadays because of lack of knowledge. We have a way of travel that is not widely used anymore, fewer people participating in the sport, fewer horses being broken properly to harness, etc etc etc. How many horse trainers do any of you have within a 100 mile radius? And of those horse trainers, how many of them break horses to drive? Not many, or not any, I'd imagine. I stumbled into the world of driving by accident, and also by accident managed to find a woman who breaks horses to drive, competes in driving, has broken a great number of horses and ponies to drive, and breeds horses specifically for driving, all of which are very rare things nowadays.

I myself was a victim of lack of knowledge - when I was in high school I had the bright idea to hitch my Quarab mare Mirage to a cart with absolutely zero prep work, because "I've been riding this horse every day for 7 years, surely driving is the same as riding." Well, the cart was actually a pony cart and she barely squeezed into it, and halfway through walking her down the road (not even in an arena, omg) she freaked out and tried to kill herself and everyone around her. LUCKILY this mare was a gem, and my dad and I managed to keep her from doing anything crazy like bolting, but I still look back at that day and get chills. I very easily could have died that day, or Mirage could have died, all because I didn't take the time to properly desensitize her and break her to harness. Unfortunately this sort of thing happens ALL THE TIME. The vast majority of people who hitch their backyard horses to a cart for the first time have absolutely no clue what they're doing, and inevitably things go pear-shaped and someone gets hurt or terrified and never tries to do that again (and usually ruins a perfectly decent horse in the process). 

Case in point: 





Half the time, I feel when things go wrong it's due to "traditions" that the driving world itself has propagated. For instance, I have always been told and have always read to ALWAYS keep a horse in draught when he's dragging tires and things, so he doesn't step over the traces and get one of them between his back legs and freak. Wouldn't it be more prudent to INTENTIONALLY do that, or at least to run the trace between his hind legs and have someone apply pressure while he's walking to desensitize him to that feeling, and thus if he ever DOES get a hind leg over a trace it's not a big deal? Or how about dropping the shafts? Everyone says you're never to do that because it may spook the horse. Why not desensitize him to it so that if you ever do drop the shafts by accident, you don't have a wreck? Things like accustoming your horse to idiot drivers (honking, loud engines, driving too close/passing quickly, etc), dragging tires and logs in an open bridle to let him see it, etc etc etc are just "not done" because they may scare the horse. Clinton Anderson always says that heart attacks are free, so give your horse one. I tend to agree, and feel that the vast majority of driving folks (that I've seen anyway) haven't done NEARLY enough desensitizing at home to prepare their driving horses. This of course invites a wreck whenever things go even a little bit wrong.

I like to say that Thunder the Shire is my first driving horse, so I want him idiot broke. I want him so broke to drive that when I make a mistake (because I'm sure I will, at some point) he will take care of me. I want him to put up with all of my stupidity and take my mistakes in stride. To that end, I've been doing everything with him that people say you shouldn't - having him step over the traces, dragging things in an open bridle, dropping the shafts, etc. I'm TRYING to scare him, I'm TRYING to get him to react, but here's the funny thing - the more I try to scare that horse, the harder it is to do it. I have a helper toss empty soda cans on his back while I ground drive him in a closed bridle, I toss milk jugs full of pebbles under his feet, I have him drag noisy objects over gravel and asphalt, and Thunder takes it all in stride. I think if more people did those things, there would be far fewer driving accidents than there are. 

-- Kai


----------



## QtrBel

Mulefeather:* "The biggest risk in driving is other people."

* THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

While I mostly drive drafts, of the light horses I have driven Pasos are my favorite. This is an old thread and I haven't gone back to reread the original posts but I will say that every catastrophic accident with driving I have seen, heard of or been involved in (one) has involved human error or misjudgement and it was the human that paid the price. The animals have been mostly scraped up and bruised but escaped major injury. I agree so much experience and ability has been lost over time and for most of those that drive now driving isn't a way of life. As with everything horse related your ability needs to be considered before undertaking a horse related activity. If you are new then you should be under the mentorship of a qualified instructor using well trained horses. You need to learn from the bottom up and get as much experience with the absolute basics of harnessing and horse care and cart care to prevent incidents. Choose your vehicle wisely as well. I personally don't think it is any more or less dangerous than riding and the advantage is you are in control of any activity horse related you share with your friends. Their experience level doesn't matter because the horse is in your hands.


----------



## SilverMaple

Oh good lord, the horse in that video.... I want him. He doesn't bolt, even with every reason to. With a half-decent training job, he'd do just fine. Idiots.


----------

