# Rollkur....Please elaborate



## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

I wa sjust wondering if you all could explain in lay terms what it is to Rollkur a horse, what is controversial about it, and what the ultimate goal in doing it to the horse is. I've looked up a few videos, and it seems to me like yanking a horses mouth to tell him to give to the bit more, and it seems all wrong because I would have been beaten by many a fellow rider for yanking so much on a horse....


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Rollkur is more of a position where the horse is behind the vertical. Like this : 










Compared to having the horses head being perpendicular to the ground like this : 









I don't know the details of how it is harmful other than putting a lot of strain on the horses neck from being pulled into the angle. Other people can probably elaborate.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

jbolt said:


> I wa sjust wondering if you all could explain in lay terms what it is to Rollkur a horse, what is controversial about it, and what the ultimate goal in doing it to the horse is. I've looked up a few videos, and it seems to me like yanking a horses mouth to tell him to give to the bit more, and it seems all wrong because I would have been beaten by many a fellow rider for yanking so much on a horse....



Do a search and you will find numerous threads on this subject that has been beaten to death to the point that even the flies won't come back.....


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## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

It would seem to me, (a cowhorse westernised person) tjat the horse on top has his mouth open and is trying to get relief from a constant cue, and the horse on the bottom is using the riders rein pressure and seat cue to lift his shoulder and extend.......in what manuevers is this being behind the vertical help? I have seen the trend pop up in reining horses too......


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## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

I have done some searches, but I find the terminology to be confusing....


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I dont' know the details either, but Rolkuer has been used by some top dressage riders as a flexing and stretching exersize, I think. It's benefit is highly controversial.
True rolkuer and having a horse behind the vertical some are not quite the same.
I don't personally see ANY benefit to either rolkuer or the way many in reining ride behind the vertical.


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## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

Are there any actual dressage type manuvers that are performed while riding behind the vertical?


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

The horse in the first picture makes me really sad... I don't see how that kind of position is good for any horse..


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Horsesdontlie said:


> Rollkur is more of a position where the horse is behind the vertical. Like this :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The second picture posted here shows incorrect dressage riding also but in a different area.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I dunno, but again, if you want to be the best of the best, there is gonna be stuff you're gonna have to do with a horse to get there. This seems to be the nasty one in dressage.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Spyder said:


> The second picture posted here shows incorrect dressage riding also but in a different area.


Not round/supple in the back? Do tell! Always willing to learn!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Not round/supple in the back? Do tell! Always willing to learn!



Look at the leg positioning.

Now tell me what you see.


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## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

I am a western rider trying to learn dressage, and she looks like shes sitting hunched down on in a "cowboy" seat.


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## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

oh, and toes up heels down!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

There are no manuevers in dressage that are performed in rolkuer. It is only used (by the few that do use it) during warm up and training, never in a performance or test.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

jbolt said:


> oh, and toes up heels down!


She means look at the horse's legs, I think.


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## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

oh well, trying to learn, i am sooooootired of chasing cows and cans, I used to do HUS well as a teenager, but I am trying to learn 1st level with my cowhorse......We will be the funniest pair at the dressage barn.........


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Well they seem to be moving diagonally.. but the front inside is very extended and the right hind isn't further up.. therefore he's not using his hind power.. meaning he's on the forehand?



jbolt said:


> oh well, trying to learn, i am sooooootired of chasing cows and cans, I used to do HUS well as a teenager, but I am trying to learn 1st level with my cowhorse......We will be the funniest pair at the dressage barn.........


How could you be tired of chasing cows?? 

But awesome that you're learning something new! I personally love dressage thus far  Good luck!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Well they seem to be moving diagonally.. but the front inside is very extended and the right hind isn't further up.. therefore he's not using his hind power.. meaning he's on the forehand?



Bingo..2 1/2 out of three stars.

The angle of the rear and front should be the same.

Either this horse does toes flicks ( frowned upon) and the camera caught it at the end of the flick or this horse over extends the front naturally ( or through improper training). This is also not correct. The rule book describes a correct extension is one where the front leg will not be placed down in front of the vertical of the horse's head.

If they go beyond then the horse does not gain ground...which means that during the extension the power from the hind leg engages more forward under the horse from step to step and THAT is what lightens the front end.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Spyder said:


> Bingo..2 1/2 out of three stars.
> 
> The angle of the rear and front should be the same.
> 
> ...



Oh wow I got it right! I didn't know the angles had to be the same.. that makes a lot of sense. 

What do you mean by toe flicks? Like what a horse does when they wear bell boots? I thought that was extending... teehe now I feel silly. 

Oh well, now I know better. Thanks Spyder


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Spyder said:


> Bingo..2 1/2 out of three stars.
> 
> The angle of the rear and front should be the same.
> 
> ...


And just a side note - the corresponding photograph is certainly not the 'worst' of this. Dressage recently went through a stage of big front movers with no hind legs. Most of the photos you saw were of windmilling front legs, and you needed binoculars to find the hind legs. 

Thankfully it seems to be swinging back the other way now with hind legs being looked at again. Carl Hester and Uthopia for example, scored a 10 in their extended trots last year in the European champs - the hind legs exactly matched the forelegs, with none of that hideous 'daisy cutter' flicky toes action.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Kayty said:


> Thankfully it seems to be swinging back the other way now with hind legs being looked at again. Carl Hester and Uthopia for example, scored a 10 in their extended trots last year in the European champs - the hind legs exactly matched the forelegs, with none of that hideous 'daisy cutter' flicky toes action.


See and no one ever told me about the hind end until recently. My new trainer who I've been with for 2 months, finally brought it to my attention and now I'm actually getting somewhere with my riding and my horse 

Trainers need to tell their students from day 1... hind = engine..!!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I absolutely agree Skyes - but I think a lot of trainers think that the concept is too difficult? Or maybe they want 'quick fixes' to keep the student coming. 
I know what I was teaching for a while (too busy with full time job, business, crippled horses etc. now!), I lost a few students on their own horses, that wanted a quick fix. They wanted me to get their horse's head down, make their neck arch all pretty etc. 
Well didn't they get a shock - they were told to hang onto the velcro of their saddle cloth, don't move their hands, and lets concentrate on what the hind legs are doing. "But he's in front of the vertical??" "But my last trainer told me to sponge my reins to get his head down".... 3 lessons in, finally starting to get the hind legs going, student finds it all too hard and taking too long (having not ridden at all between lessons) and gives up.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Kayty said:


> I absolutely agree Skyes - but I think a lot of trainers think that the concept is too difficult? Or maybe they want 'quick fixes' to keep the student coming.
> I know what I was teaching for a while (too busy with full time job, business, crippled horses etc. now!), I lost a few students on their own horses, that wanted a quick fix. They wanted me to get their horse's head down, make their neck arch all pretty etc.
> Well didn't they get a shock - they were told to hang onto the velcro of their saddle cloth, don't move their hands, and lets concentrate on what the hind legs are doing. "But he's in front of the vertical??" "But my last trainer told me to sponge my reins to get his head down".... 3 lessons in, finally starting to get the hind legs going, student finds it all too hard and taking too long (having not ridden at all between lessons) and gives up.


Yeah some people shouldn't be on a horse if all they want to do is make a horse shaped cookie. Beat the dough, shove it in a cookie cutter shape, and bake it till it's crispy. They don't care about the horse and how it's more comfortable (but yes more work) to work from the hind. It's like how people learn to "suck in" (for lack of a better phrase..) their tummies and use their abs instead of just letting it all hang out and lean back. Once you get past the work of holding it all in.. you feel better. Your back isn't sore and you are _balanced._ 

Just because models walk with their torsos leaning back on their hips and their legs leading doesn't mean it's good for their health. Same with horse.. just because a horse's head is all curled up and their forelegs are popping up with good suspension, doesn't mean they're correct.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Subbing!

Interesting about the angles in the extended trot. I didn't know that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Sunny said:


> Subbing!
> 
> Interesting about the angles in the extended trot. I didn't know that!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It could be during all the paces not just extended. The hind just needs to be working, right? Instead of the forehand just plowing away. But I'm just making an inference. I could be wrong..


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Oh, I agree! My mistake. I was typing while reading about Uthopia's 10s in the extended trot! :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Sunny said:


> Oh, I agree! My mistake. I was typing while reading about Uthopia's 10s in the extended trot! :lol:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's all good! I'm still learning too  What were you reading?? I've not heard of it


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Skye's - my comment regarding Carl Hester and Uthopia in the last Euro champs, they scored a 10 in the extended trot.

And yes, the angles should be the same whether it is collected, working, medium or extended.


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

My input on the rollkur:

I don't particularly like it. I feel it's too much of a stretch for a horse, and doesn't look natural. I also think it shouldn't be used for western (referring to the reining video on another thread) because it doesn't allow the horse to fully stretch out for the maneuvers they do. It also makes them look like they're going to fall over. 

I do however think, (if it uses the same technique, if not ignore this) that in order to teach a nice headset, you could possibly teach this one, so when they understand this, it's most likely easier to do a normal one. 

Just like if I were to practice getting comfortable galloping and succeeded, it'd be way more easier to be comfortable and confident at the canter after being successful at the gallop. 

Just my $0.02
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Dressage does not teach headset. Rolkur does not teach headset.
It is not about head set. 
We do not 'yank and crank' the horse's head into its chest, and then hope for the best by kicking the hind legs up until we have some sort of 'pretty' pony club frame.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Here's rolkur explained -






The video is a bit flashy, but explains the basics well. It is not acceptable as any means of training at all!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Nope I don't think its acceptable - not only for the physical demands on the horse, but also because one of the fundamental parts of dressage is that we ride a horse up into the bridle, into a light hand, and that the hand should never come backwards. 

However - if you don't understand exactly what rolkur is, please don't run around screaming 'rolkur rolkur, horse abuser!' at someone who is riding their horse a little deep for a few strides, by softening the neck rather than hauling backwards. There is a difference.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Rollkur.. I don't understand much about it, all I ever heard before was

Warm up rings- whether they were used
Abuse- towards the animal
Hyperflexion- overbending, linked possibly to abuse?
Dressage- only ever heard it being used in dressage, but then never bothered looking in to it.

I am pretty sure, if I am not mistaken I saw a picture of a dressage rider warming up in a rollkur and they were, media wise, battered for it. I'll try and find it. Interesting read though.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Yeah that'd probably be Anky, Sophie, she 'started' the whole rolkur hoo-hah in the first place I believe, but using it in public. Or the blue tongue incident with Patrick Kittel and Scandic.

Scandic, blue tongue 'incident'


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

http://midwestnha.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/rollkur-equine-back.jpg

I found this quite interesting... the picture that is.

And as you are all aware I am a big dressage fan, and this is in no way a hit to dressage riders, at all, I just found the picture comical.

http://blog.nerdette.org/images/rollkur_eng.jpg

I have to say, if you just google pictures rollkur... it doesn't bring up very pretty pictures at all  Makes me quite sad, actually, that people riding in these are looking for a short cut to something, with correct riding and muscle build up, could come quite easily.

I found this diagram very useful.. you can see the WRONG bend, and snake like shape of the bones in the neck -shudder-


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Kayty said:


> Yeah that'd probably be Anky, Sophie, she 'started' the whole rolkur hoo-hah in the first place I believe, but using it in public. Or the blue tongue incident with Patrick Kittel and Scandic.
> 
> Scandic, blue tongue 'incident'
> Scandic blue tongue uncut - YouTube


 
Also Edward Gal.. or was so when I googled pics then and you're right, thats the bit I remember.. the poor horse's tongue :evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil: I'd multiply those, but don't want to be done for scamming.

I'm not going to say right and wrongs right now, in work and cant really look anything up... but is it a piece of equipment DESIGNED to hyperflex the horse that unnaturally, or is it being used incorrectly (ie when spurs make a horse's side bleed, but that was never the correct design use for them)


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Apologies, just realised that last pic is SUPER tiny, http://horseandman.com/wp-content/uploads/Screen-shot-2011-09-06-at-4.58.41-PM.png

That is the link for a clearer explanation.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

On Edward Gal for a moment now that you mention him - I have seem two sides. Yes, I've seen the video's of him employing rolkur as a training technique, I've seen the photo's of his horses's heads cranked to their chests in draw reins with spurs strongly engaged, but I've also seen him ride amazingly kindly, so quiet, such beautiful, soft, un-interfering hands and a sensational seat. 
He was in Australia for a Masterclass at the end of 2011 - and there we again, saw the soft, kind, sympathetic, brilliantly effective side of Edwards Gal's riding, along with partner Hans Peter Minderhoud who was also a stunningly sympathetic rider, with a strong focus on developing very solid basics. 

That said, we've also had Anky do a Masterclass here about 8 years ago, and she too, was wonderfully sympathetic and really pushed the 'happy athlete'. Didn't see a single amount of rolkur produced at any time. Her partner Sjef, was an incredibly friendly, down to earth individual that was willing to take time out of their very busy schedule to talk to anyone who wanted to discuss any training issues with him. He would sit down and talk through everything. 

Ulla was the one Australia kicked out and told to never come back. We had horses literally wrecked after clinics with her. One become so distressed, that it bolted straight into the side of the indoor arena, flipped over the side and sustained massive injuries as well as severe neurological complications that took years of dedication and patient training to settle.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Actually, Baucher is the original person that came up with rolkur.. a "classical dressage" trainer no doubt.
Sjef is the trainer that got the trend started again in the Netherlands. So those who train or trained with him are the ones that were using it. Edward Gal left Sjef in his Toto days. 

Actual rolkur, where the head is pulled right up to the neck, the neck shortened and compression and pinching of the spine is liable to happen is not really productive, imo. However, and far too often, a horse being ridden deep is called "rolkur" when it isn't. Riding a horse deep is necessary at some point. Whether its long and low with a young horse, deep after a moment of collection on an upper level horse or riding in a very round frame for "neck control" (Dr. Caeser Parra's words) while schooling it is not rolkur. Having a horse deep, coming into the contact and stretching his neck out to the bit with a giving hand and driving leg, regardless of the position of the head relative to the vertical, is not rolkur. If you can ride a horse very collected one moment and the next, without lengthening the rein, the horse can become very round and deep and really be stretching into the contact it means you have connection, you have a horse going forward from behind and the horse has truly softened the underside of the neck while lifting at the base.
My horse does not soften well longitudinally so I end up in a long and low, deep stretching or "over round" frame a lot to help him to build strength in the back and neck as these frames don't allow him to brace with the underside of the neck and encourage him to be more supple.

There was a great article in DT last year about Dr. Parra's "neck control"... its not rolkur, just riding towards a soft horse. Nothing ****es me off like people calling a deep frame rolkur. It makes you look stupid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Actually, Baucher is the original person that came up with rolkur.. a "classical dressage" trainer no doubt.
> Sjef is the trainer that got the trend started again in the Netherlands. So those who train or trained with him are the ones that were using it. Edward Gal left Sjef in his Toto days.
> 
> Actual rolkur, where the head is pulled right up to the neck, the neck shortened and compression and pinching of the spine is liable to happen is not really productive, imo. However, and far too often, a horse being ridden deep is called "rolkur" when it isn't. Riding a horse deep is necessary at some point. Whether its long and low with a young horse, deep after a moment of collection on an upper level horse or riding in a very round frame for "neck control" (Dr. Caeser Parra's words) while schooling it is not rolkur. Having a horse deep, coming into the contact and stretching his neck out to the bit with a giving hand and driving leg, regardless of the position of the head relative to the vertical, is not rolkur. If you can ride a horse very collected one moment and the next, without lengthening the rein, the horse can become very round and deep and really be stretching into the contact it means you have connection, you have a horse going forward from behind and the horse has truly softened the underside of the neck while lifting at the base.
> ...


 
In which case thank you for explaining the difference, because I would have '****ed' you off as I didn't know beforehand.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

lubylol said:


> I do however think, (if it uses the same technique, if not ignore this) that in order to teach a nice headset, you could possibly teach this one, so when they understand this, it's most likely easier to do a normal one.
> 
> Just like if I were to practice getting comfortable galloping and succeeded, it'd be way more easier to be comfortable and confident at the canter after being successful at the gallop.


That logic is a little flawed.. but I can see where you're coming from. Though honestly, I would rather drop a 50lb weight on my foot and rip my hair out than do that to my horse. Imagine if someone made you walk around with your chin cranked down to your chest; even 10 seconds of it makes me really dizzy and I can feel how tight my jaw is. And I'm a person... so I think a horse would be just as if not more uncomfortable.

I don't know what Rolkur is, but I DO know that I really don't like the looks of it.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Imagine if someone made you walk around with your chin cranked down to your chest


Don't have to imagine. BTDT as a plebe at the Naval Academy. And it sucked.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

mildot said:


> Don't have to imagine. BTDT as a plebe at the Naval Academy. And it sucked.


 sheesh that's sickening.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> sheesh that's sickening.


Actually, it teaches you to persevere through physical and mental distress.

Important qualities in a military officer.

NOTE: I accepted such training freely and voluntarily and could have quit at any time. Horses neither ask for similar treatment nor can they easily evade.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

mildot said:


> Actually, it teaches you to persevere through physical and mental distress.
> 
> Important qualities in a military officer.
> 
> NOTE: I accepted such training freely and voluntarily and could have quit at any time. Horses neither ask for similar treatment nor can they easily evade.


No I mean literally... like I said I can do 10 seconds and I feel really messed up lol.

But good point, horses can't say no. They can buck or kick or bite you when you get off but that's about it..


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I don't know what Rolkur is, but I DO know that I really don't like the looks of it.


On what planet does this statement make ANY SENSE whatsoever???

I don't know what the color blue is.... But I do know that I really don't like the looks of it on the walls of my kitchen.



This is what I mean about not know what Rolkur is or isn't and then making broad statements about how evil and cruel it is and labelling anything with a double bridle on as "Rolkur". *Get educated about something AND THEN get an opinion about it.* It's a one way street.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> On what planet does this statement make ANY SENSE whatsoever???
> 
> I don't know what the color blue is.... But I do know that I really don't like the looks of it on the walls of my kitchen.
> 
> ...


You took that the wrong way. I said I don't know what it *looks* like. I see a horse (with the pictures in this thread) whose being way overbent and it looks painful. At one point I didn't like how foam looked in a horse's mouth, but then I learned about it and now understand the reason it happens and I don't mind it now.

And I will educate myself, just it takes more time than a day or two to learn. 

I just got a bit off topic with mildot is all


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

The horse is 1500lbs. Yes it "looks painful" (laying on a bed of nails "looks painful" as well) but trust me if it was actually all that painful the horse wouldn't submit to it. I have seen horses bend Sprenger curb bits before, they have a lot more power behind them than most people give them credit for. If he doesn't want to do it, or if it hurts, the horse knows darn well how to pile a rider into the rafters.

The only issue I see with true, short necked, pulled in Rolkur (as opposed to riding with a deep neck) is it causing long term inflammation in the joints of the neck - which can also be caused by the use of draw reins and other gadgets to tie the face to the chest. So if these gadgets which can cause the same damage as riding nearly contantly in true Rolkur are NOT outlawed and looked down upon in the horse world I really fail to see where the controversy on Rolkur is... personally I don't think there's a big deal whether the egg is cooked on a grass fire or a stove - it's still cooked in the end so why does it matter how it got cooked?


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Well I'm glad we cleared that confusion up.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> I don't know what the color blue is.... But I do know that I really don't like the looks of it on the walls of my kitchen.


The colour blue is caused by the paint on your kitchen walls. The paint absorbs the red part of the colour spectrum, so only reflects the blue part. Our eyes see the blue being reflected, and this is what makes a colour :lol::lol:


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I am coming into this late and pleading ignorance...so please forgive me...

I am confused as what it is supposed to achieve. I will admit to riding a horse "deep" now and again to gain softness in the bridle. But this seems exaggerated, there is nowhere else for him to go. Also in the video posted it seemed to me that that horse was drawing himself forward rather than pushing? Am I seeing this wrong? If the horse isn't coming from behind doing this what is the point?

Again I have no knowledge of dressage/Dressage and I am not being a smart *** I am genuinely curious.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> So if these gadgets which can cause the same damage as riding nearly contantly in true Rolkur are NOT outlawed and looked down upon in the horse world I really fail to see where the controversy on Rolkur is... ?


Two wrongs don't make a right.


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## lacey123 (Jan 19, 2012)

Rolkur is not a deep stretching frame, it is the exact opposite, and I don't think that anyone said it was unless I missed that. I think that anyone deffending this topic is a sad thing. The fact that someone who has less experiance as say Anky, can point out that this is not a good riding technique and not only looks painful for the horse, is in my opinion a great sign that this sport is getting back to where it needs to be.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

mildot said:


> Two wrongs don't make a right.


But it's OK for everyone at a h/j show to be in the warmup with drawreins on.... However something that CAN, if used for prolonged periods of time, cause the same amount of damage to the structures of the neck (ie Rolkur) is cause for outcry about animal abuse... I smell a double standard.

Not saying Rolkur is a good thing to do or talking about the pros/cons of using it in a training program. Just that if everyones going to get their knickers in a twist over it then don't be a hypocrite and go ride around in draw reins on your horse. I've seen more horses with chronically inflammed necks from draw rein use than Rolkur.

lacey, that is exactly what I am saying. The thing about it being "sad to defend it" - no one has actually quantifiably PROVEN that Rolkur is abusive or any more harmful to the horse than any other crap we do to them (draw reins). It is because people with relatively little or no knowledge of dressage have cried about how bad Rolkur looks for so long that just to shut them up the FEI has put in some cryptic rules to deter it. It's also falling out of fashion, luckily so I can stop hearing about it lol.
As I said before - get educated FIRST and then get an opinion. It's a one way street.
Barrel racing doesn't look very pleasurable to the horse (most of them have their ears pinned) and yet - it's not animal abuse!! Same thing.


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## newhorsemom (Jun 20, 2008)

Anabel, would it be possible to post a picture (or link) of something that might be mistaken as rolkur but is in fact not? I know what I would consider rolkur and also what I would consider a deep stretching frame and I don't think I'd confuse the two but I'm not sure. A visual of what you are talking about would be helpful to me and I'm guessing a few others on here as well.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

FEI Publishes Diagrams for Dressage Warm-ups for Stewards Manual *|*
None of these are rolkur.. although the low deep round diagram the riders hands are terrible lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Barrel racing doesn't look very pleasurable to the horse (most of them have their ears pinned) and yet - it's not animal abuse!! Same thing.


 
I've never seen a horse at a flat out run that didn't have their ears back (not pinned....that makes me think of a horse getting ready to bite or kick) , barrel racer or not!


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## newhorsemom (Jun 20, 2008)

Thank you, that was helpful.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> ...Not saying Rolkur is a good thing to do or talking about the pros/cons of using it in a training program. Just that if everyones going to get their knickers in a twist over it then don't be a hypocrite and go ride around in draw reins on your horse...


I was watching my daughter in a group lesson this weekend. All western. The instructor is big on soft hands, or preferably no hands at all. "Seat! Leg! Reins IF NEEDED!"

But there was a horse that was pulling on his rider, shoving his face forward and ignoring her attempts to control him. The instructor stopped the class - 8 riders - and repeated her mantra about light or no hands. "But!", she said, "*when you are training a horse, sometimes you have to go where you don't want to be so that the horse will know he doesn't want to be there either!*"

I have no involvement with dressage other than to watch videos and read books. However, my opinion on rollkur is kind of in the bold print above. I have no idea if it is effective for training or not. Some of the riders who sometimes use it are also some of the top riders in the world, and I'm certainly no one to tell them otherwise.

But when I walk into my corral to feed my 3 horses, I don't worry about them trampling me or getting aggressive. Why? Because sometimes they have NOT acted well when I stepped into the corral. And when that happens, *I take them where I don't want to be so that they won't want to be there either*! I don't throw a feed bucket at a horse for fun, or a rock, or threaten to shove a hay fork up their rears sideways because I'm mean. I do it, when needed, so I won't need to do so again. 

I don't know if that is what rollkur is like or not. I could see where some horses would respond to, "Give me A because it beats B", or "Give me A cheerfully because B is next in line..."


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> But it's OK for everyone at a h/j show to be in the warmup with drawreins on.... However something that CAN, if used for prolonged periods of time, cause the same amount of damage to the structures of the neck (ie Rolkur) is cause for outcry about animal abuse... I smell a double standard.
> 
> Not saying Rolkur is a good thing to do or talking about the pros/cons of using it in a training program. Just that if everyones going to get their knickers in a twist over it then don't be a hypocrite and go ride around in draw reins on your horse. I've seen more horses with chronically inflammed necks from draw rein use than Rolkur.
> 
> ...


Apart from the 'proven' part, we can say spurs can be harmful, a bit can be harmful- its the rider BEHIND these things that makes the difference.

I asked earlier, for information, and I didn't get a clear answer.

Is rollkur SUPPOSED to induce hyperflexion, or is it misuse of the product, as you could say with draw reins, spurs etc. I'm curious to know if it was designed for this purpose, and what the rider thought would be achieved, or if it has been misused and now has a bad name for its apparent 'cruetly' for over bending the horse and causing strain on certain points of the neck and back.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

You can read Baucher's original teachings... Wikipedia has a good enough summary of Baucher's ideas:
François Baucher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basically he rode the horse and completely dominated and manipualted the horse's body to quickly produce an upper level horse. Then he was in some crippling accident and so all the "ammendments" and further books he wrote after that were because he could no longer ride using his original methods for he was not as physically strong as his original methods required...

No one has provided proof that there is any more harm done to the horse using Baucher's methods (ie Rolkur) than using say, draw reins, although Baucher's methods have always been controversial. However he can be classified as a "classical dressage master" - which I find hilarious because his methods were originally far "harsher" than most "modern dressage" trainers...

I think bsms put it well as the thought behind it is "overpositioning" that the horse is then easier to ride when the positioning is more moderate. True Rolkur is extreme overpositioning - LDR is not. The difference as it has been explained in one blog is that "if you photoshop the head and neck and rotate them so the poll is the highest point and the nose is infront of the vertical then it is LDR and not Rolkur" or basically using the angle of longitudinal flexion at the poll to determine the level of positioning - or overpositioning, not simply just looking at the position of the neck and crying "wolf!".


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> You can read Baucher's original teachings... Wikipedia has a good enough summary of Baucher's ideas:
> François Baucher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Basically he rode the horse and completely dominated and manipualted the horse's body to quickly produce an upper level horse. Then he was in some crippling accident and so all the "ammendments" and further books he wrote after that were because he could no longer ride using his original methods for he was not as physically strong as his original methods required...
> ...


Will have a read once I've eaten.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> FEI Publishes Diagrams for Dressage Warm-ups for Stewards Manual *|*
> None of these are rolkur.. although the low deep round diagram the riders hands are terrible lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah I figured that wasn't rolkur.. but this is, right?

http://www.bitlessbridle.com/RollkurFig4a.jpg

http://www.softtouchhorsemanship.com/images/abscrulty.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KetGxKCkqS8/TbUR8XddrNI/AAAAAAAAAiQ/7eZn5p6HDMA/s1600/overbent.jpg

Or ?


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

All three of those are moments in time so it is hard to say. The first and third would appear to be rolkur, or rolkur like, the third a better example than the first (the first is quite bracey, and the tension on the left rein makes me think it is a moment in time trying to work through the left flexion). The second picture is just bad riding with gadgets.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> All three of those are moments in time so it is hard to say. The first and third would appear to be rolkur, or rolkur like, the third a better example than the first (the first is quite bracey, and the tension on the left rein makes me think it is a moment in time trying to work through the left flexion). The second picture is just bad riding with gadgets.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Alright, well that is what I was referring to as what I didn't like the look of. I try to stay away from gadgets.. I figure if I can't help the horse to work their hind and develop their frame.. then I have no business using "draw reins" or whatnot.

I have a question though. When a horse gets behind the vertical, that isn't rolkur right? It's just the horse avoiding the contact, right?


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

It depends on what the body is doing. See the LDR diagrams in the FEI stewards thing I posted - those horses (irl) would still be going to the contact. The second horse in the series of photos you posted is avoiding the contact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## goldrushx (Dec 15, 2009)

Sick and wrong! That's rollkur


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> It depends on what the body is doing. See the LDR diagrams in the FEI stewards thing I posted - those horses (irl) would still be going to the contact. The second horse in the series of photos you posted is avoiding the contact.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay, thanks for explaining that to me


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## mudpie (Jul 15, 2011)

Rollkur is often disapproved of because it contradicts the structure of horses by putting extreme stress on the vertebrae/muscles in the neck. I don't know enough about it to form my own opinion, but most people I talk to apparently hate it with a burning passion and are object to it quite fervently.

People who support and/or practice it because it "stretches the muscles in the neck." The idea is that the put the horse in that position for only a short amount of time, and through this position they create a happy medium in the correct head position.

Either way, the most common argument that I've heard is the one I stated in the first sentence.


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## BCtazzie (Jun 7, 2011)

waresbear said:


> I dunno, but again, if you want to be the best of the best, there is gonna be stuff you're gonna have to do with a horse to get there. This seems to be the nasty one in dressage.


That and using an allen key to tighten nosebands nowadays. The girls aren't allowed to do the nosebands up as they can't get it as tight as the guys. 

Across the board things need to change, not just dressage. 

if your horse is opening it's mouth, it's from too much pressure from the hands.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

BCtazzie said:


> That and using an allen key to tighten nosebands nowadays. The girls aren't allowed to do the nosebands up as they can't get it as tight as the guys.


That's really messed up.. :evil: :-x


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## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

I treat the words headset and frame like curse words. I finally have my mare to the point where she does have the head down and pretty arched neck, and it kills me because my hunter trainer calls it a frame (we do dressage & hunters)...and in some ways, I suppose she IS in a "frame", but she is first and foremost moving forward into my hands, soft and bending properly. It's not just where her head is at, it's what her hind end is doing and how that is affecting how she carries herself on the front too.

Rollkur...well, I can see where it might be useful as a stretch - as in a take and release thing to loosen up the neck muscles. But I don't agree with it where it is held and the horse worked in that way to teach "headset".

There's a difference in a "headset" and being accepting of the bit and working into it. It's really not that fine of a line either...


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

A 'frame' is not a bad thing - it is the head set that irks me.

We use the word frame to describe how the horse is carrying itself. So a 3 year old, should be travelling in an open, loose frame. As opposed to the seasoned FEI horse at a competition that would be travelling in a shorter, more 'together' and 'up' frame. Frame does not have to mean that you have jammed the horse's head in.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Sorry but I have to address that barrel racing thing, my pride won't let me look over it so you can ignore me if you really want to, just kinda had a bad day as far as some new riders at the barn now hating me because I'm a barrel racer when they've never actually seen me run.





 
Only time stingray pins her ears is on the run home. And that's not even pinning. That's "Oh there's wind in my ears maybe if I swivel them back a little ways I'll be able to hear something besides the whistling of the air..."


ANYWAY, sorry....

I have zero problem bringing my horses head to their chest for approximately .2 seconds if I feel it absolutely has to happen. But since that has really only been necessary for me once in a lifetime of hell freezing over, I don't think I caused long term permanent damage to the horses spinal chord and neck muscles?

However, I do NOT like the head-to-chest-for-a-gazillion-hours-a-day. I don't even like riding my gelding in a german martingale because he immediately will throw his head to his chest without me even touching him. Not sure why because he'll root his little nose out all the way in any other type of martingale and that little string is on the loosest I can make it when I DO put it on him (Which I don't anymore because of that)

This thread has educated me a bit more on what is really going on here. That blue tongue video made me want to throw up. If I'm going to ride with contact I want my horses on the vertical or riding low and round, not biting their own chests.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Ok now my time for a pet peeve rant from me then- and its about the blue tongue video. 

Does anyone actually know the backstory on the horse? Has anyone actually cared to find out? The horse plays with its bits, constantly. This is not an uncommon thing. Another not uncommon thing is for horses with active mouths to get their tongues over the bit. Again, not uncommon is for the tongue to then stick out of the mouth. Finally, another not uncommon thing that happens to horses who get their tongues over bits is for the tongue to lose circulation. So, rider notices horses tongue is over the bit, what does he do but reach down, put the tongue back in and encourage the horse to take it back under the bits. I fail to see how that constitutes abuse, or makes it alright to chastise the poor guy. He has received death threats over that video. Give me an effing break... that happens to horses all over the world, rolkur or not.

Peoples idiotic responses to stuff like that makes me want to throw up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Anebel, I posted that video here in response to DuffyDucks queery about how the 'rolkur' debate got so hyped up. Anky was the first that really got the ball rolling in the media, and the blue tongue video was another that got every man and his dog jumping up and down about 'rolkur'. There is no debating that this video caused a rolkur induced sensation for a long period of time.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I'm not so much irritated by the fact that the tongue is blue and sticking out then the headset itself....


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I was posting in response to miss barrel racer informing us all about how little we know about barrel racing, and apparently Dressage as well if the "blue tongue video" doesn't make us want to go off to the ladies room and stick our fingers down our throats.

Did the video cause a sensation? Yes.
Was it warranted? In my opinion and that of some "higher ups" - No. Which was obviously illustrated by the FEI and their response, which served mainly to quell the media and employ an artist to draw more diagrams for the rule book.

People see something, don't think about it and then flip out. It's like high voltage power lines, communities flip when the nice swath of land behind them, that is there because its been zoned for power lines prior to the community existing, starts getting developed. They while about electro magnetic waves and want the lines buried without learning that dirt does not stop EM waves and by burying them you are bringing them down out of 100 meters in the sky to 1 meter under the dirt and the EM waves that much closer to your house.

It's the same kind of thing, although less damaging to your health if some guy in Germany feels the need to ride his horse LDR.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Easy Anebel, I'm not saying you don't know anything. You know a great deal more than me about dressage. I know very little. However, I do know a bit about training and competing with barrel horses. I would say the same thing about a video of a barrel racer or a reiner riding in a rollkur with their tongues out and blue.

I'm not saying at all that the blue tongue is what alarmed me. I do find it kinda gross but I also think its gross when my horse gets green slime all over my show helmet. Perhaps you think my "throwing up" analogy was too much, maybe it is. I'm just saying that I don't like it. I don't like the headset, I don't like the blue tongue. It's not saying I absolutely hate all dressage riders and no horse ever sticks their tongue out or loses circulation unles they are in rollkur. I actually have a lot of respect for you and all other dressage riders, anebel. I do not like being talked down to however.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

SorrelHorse said:


> I do not like being talked down to however.


Welcome to the club. 

My point is, basically, why do people care enough that some guy in Germany wants to ride LDR to talk about it on a forum, years after AND the issue has been "resolved" by the international governing body, who obviously had no trouble keeping their lunches down.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Why does anyone talk about world war 2 after it has been resolved many years later? Because it made an impact. That's all.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Hahaha that's a world war though, this is a fad. Perhaps we should discuss how neon tights in the 80s made everyone look like they had cellulite?

I don't feel like a decade of resurgence of an old Frenchmans previously discredited training method justifies much of an 'impact' on a discipline which is thousands of years old....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Ironically we were talking about clothing from the "other decades" at the barn the other day. Interesting how a lot of those fashion styles are being incorporated into styles today. Maybe we're seeing the exact same thing in dressage as well.


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## onyxriddle (Jan 2, 2012)

In classical dressage one must properly use seat, hands, and legs to balance the horse back onto its haunches resulting in a light and balanced forehand. The horse will resultingly have a somewhat high head carriage and then will bend at the poll (as seen in the second picture). To do this correctly is hard and takes lots of work. The rollkur is a way to falsely mimic that correct flexion without getting true balance onto the haunches. (Some horses will actually do this on their own to try and escape working harder.) The result is hyperflexion in the neck (first picture), where the horse is "rolling" forward into the bridle. This puts the horses weight onto the forehand. Which is of course incorrect. It's much easier to do, and very incorrect. I seriously hope no one would purposefully try to achieve this with their horse. As performing advanced dressage movements on the forehand over a long period of time can be crippling to the horses structural health.


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## onyxriddle (Jan 2, 2012)

It's a common mistake to think a deep frame is a rollkur. No big deal. It just means you dont know the difference. Can everyone take a deep breath?


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## Strange (Jan 11, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Actually, Baucher is the original person that came up with rolkur.. a "classical dressage" trainer no doubt.
> Sjef is the trainer that got the trend started again in the Netherlands. So those who train or trained with him are the ones that were using it. Edward Gal left Sjef in his Toto days.
> 
> Actual rolkur, where the head is pulled right up to the neck, the neck shortened and compression and pinching of the spine is liable to happen is not really productive, imo. However, and far too often, a horse being ridden deep is called "rolkur" when it isn't. Riding a horse deep is necessary at some point. Whether its long and low with a young horse, deep after a moment of collection on an upper level horse or riding in a very round frame for "neck control" (Dr. Caeser Parra's words) while schooling it is not rolkur. Having a horse deep, coming into the contact and stretching his neck out to the bit with a giving hand and driving leg, regardless of the position of the head relative to the vertical, is not rolkur. If you can ride a horse very collected one moment and the next, without lengthening the rein, the horse can become very round and deep and really be stretching into the contact it means you have connection, you have a horse going forward from behind and the horse has truly softened the underside of the neck while lifting at the base.
> ...



I am completely with you on ignorant people calling deep and round (long or low) work 'rollkur'. Some idiot in a show warm up (I'm an eventer) came up to me before I went in the ring ciriticising how I was warming up the horse I was on. The horse in question is 26 and gets a little more locked up through his back than when he was a young whipper snapper, and the deep, round work (especially in the counter canter) really helps him loosen up and start to use his entire body. My hands are forward and soft and the horse is seeking the contact in a relaxed and completely un-agitated manner, but people see him somewhat behind the vertical and pretty round and assume I'm doing 'rollkur'. Ridiculous.


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