# A question of flexion; neck flexions are good, or bad, or?



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

here are more examples pulled randomly of what I would see as correctly done lateral neck flexions:


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Good topic, Tinyliny. I agree with you. 

I've been on horses that don't know how to bend at all, and that's bad. But it's also very bad for horses to be "too bendy." What I don't like about how Clinton Anderson is doing it is that with the wrong temperament, a horse can learn that his head and neck can move independently of his body and use that as an evasion. 
To me, this is plenty of bend:








The horse can manage any size circle with that ability. Along with learning to bend, horses need to learn to follow their head with their hindquarters. Otherwise you can end up in a dangerous situation. 

I think it is fine to do the type of bending Anderson is doing from the saddle from the ground as a stretching exercise. But not teaching the horse that he can bend his neck and then do something altogether different with his body. In fact, when I do those "carrot stretches" in a stall, I encourage the horse after standing still and bending to walk in a circle following the carrot with a bend through the whole body. 
A very stiff horse that has never been taught to bend is much easier to fix than a very bendy horse that has learned he doesn't have to follow his head through his body.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

What you were taught is also what the trainer who worked with Lilly, Trooper and Mia taught.

This is a long quote from Baucher's New Method (1864?), and an illustration. If you don't wish to read it, please skip the rest of my post and ignore it and me. 

I think it gives enough of the rational and the technique, and can be downloaded for free by anyone who wants to know more. But this is also a part of the history of WHY flexions were & are done:








​ 
Notice the head is not twisted...

_"The head and neck of the horse are at once the rudder and compass of the rider. By them he directs the animal ; by them, also, lie can judge of the regularity and precision of his movements. The equilibrium of the whole body is perfect, its lightness complete, when the head and neck remain of themselves easy, pliable and graceful. 

On the contrary, there can be no elegance, no ease of the whole, when these two parts are stiff. Preceding the body of the horse in all its impulsions, they ought to give warning, and show by their attitude the positions to be taken, and the movements to be executed.

The rider has no power so long as they remain contracted and rebellious; he disposes of the animal at will, when once they are flexible and easily handled. If the head and neck do not first commence the changes of direction, if in circular movements they are not inclined in a curved line, if in backing they do not bend back upon themselves, and if their lightness is not always in harmony with the different paces at which we wish to go, the horse will be free to execute these movements or not, since he will remain master of the employment of his own forces. 

From the time I first noticed the powerful influence that the stiffness of the neck exercises on the whole mechanism of the horse, I attentively sought the means to remedy it. The resistances to the band are always either sideways, upward or downward. I at first considered the neck alone as the source of these resistances, and exercised myself in suppling the animal by flexions, repeated in every direction. The result was immense; but, although, at the end of a certain time, the supplings of the neck rendered me perfectly master of the forces of the foreparts of the horse, I still felt a slight resistance which I could not at first account for. At last I discovered that it proceeded from the jaw. The flexibility I had communicated to the neck even aided this stiffness of the muscles of the lower jaw, by permitting the horse in certain cases to escape the action of the bit. 

I then bethought me of the means of combating these resistances in this, their last stronghold ; and, from that time, it is there I always commence my work of suppling. ..

...The importance of these flexions of the jaw is easily understood. The result of them is to prepare the horse to yield instantly to the lightest pressure of the bit and to supple directly the muscles that join the head to the neck. As the head ought to precede and determine the different attitudes of the neck, it is indispensable that the latter part be always in subjection to the other, and respond to its impulsions.

That would be only partially the case with the flexibility of the neck alone, which would then make the head obey it, by drawing it along in its movements. You see, then, why at first I experienced resistances, in spite of the pliability of the neck, of which I could not imagine the cause. 

The followers of my method to whom I have not yet had an opportunity of making known the new means just explained, will learn with pleasure that this process not only brings the flexibility of the neck to a greater degree of perfection, but saves much time in finishing the suppling. The exercise of the jaw, while fashioning the mouth and head, brings along with it the flexion of the neck, and accelerates the getting the horse in hand....

[Note: gap of many pages]

..."When the supplings have subjected the instinctive forces of the horse, and given them up completely into our power, the animal will be nothing more in our hand than a passive, expectant machine, ready to act upon the impulsion we choose to communicate to him. It will be for us, then, as sovereign disposers of all his forces, to combine the employment of them in correct proportion to the movements we wish to execute. 

The young horse, at first stiff and awkward in the use of his members, will need a certain degree of management in developing them. In this, as in every other case, we will follow that rational progression which tells us to commence with the simple, before passing to the complicated. 

By the preceding exercise, we have made our means of acting upon the horse sure. We must now attend to facilitating his means of execution, by exercising all his forces together. If the animal responds to the aids of the rider by the jaw, the neck and the haunches ; if he yields by the general disposition of his body to the impulses communicated to him, it is by the play of his extremities that he executes the movement. The mechanism of these parts ought then to be easy, prompt and regular ; their application, well directed in the different paces, will alone be able to give them these qualities, indispensable to a good education."
_
https://archive.org/details/newmethodofhorse00bauc

Have I tried it? A little, with Mia about 5 years ago, but I didn't have the patience to do it right and felt it would be worse still to do it wrong. I may try it with Bandit...haven't yet, but it is something to think about. I'm not sure my goal is for my horse to "_be nothing more in our hand than a passive, expectant machine, ready to act upon the impulsion we choose to communicate to him". _But there are ideas here worth thinking about._
_


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I am going to just post a larry trocha video, and maybe some principles will become clear, because I am getting very tired!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

bsms said:


> The result was immense; but, although, at the end of a certain time, the supplings of the neck rendered me perfectly master of the forces of the foreparts of the horse, I still felt a slight resistance which I could not at first account for. At last I discovered that it proceeded from the jaw. The flexibility I had communicated to the neck even aided this stiffness of the muscles of the lower jaw, by permitting the horse in certain cases to escape the action of the bit.


Many of you are probably familiar with this article by Deb Bennett. She calls "head twirling" what Baucher calls "jaw flexion."
http://www.equinestudies.org/true_collection_2008/true_collection_2008_pdf1.pdf








I can't say I've perfected this, probably from not spending enough time on it. However, it sounds right to me. 

You can see the size of this 17+ hand horse standing next to a 15 hand Arab. 








The Percheron had never been taught any neck flexion, and moved with his neck held out straight, never bending when the bit was engaged. As you might imagine, he took you anywhere you wanted to go and many places you didn't until we taught him how to bend. I've never spent a lot of time with horses on flexion once they were trained, but he required some extra time and attention in this department.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, that trainer didn't get too far with Mia!
Did Baucher rein a horse?
NOw, I am not a great fan of CA, but far as what he is doing with Titan, I don't see a probelm (just watched the first two)
In order to critique his training methods, there are a few requirements
_first, you have to compare a horse trained other wise, that is able to both run a reining pattern on a loose rein, and yet stay completely in control
Now if someone like Shawn Flarida, who has won many NRHA titles, has won over 3 million dollars in reining, were to say CA's flexing was wrong, then credibilty would be granted to that view.
Having people from entirely different discipline bash those videos, not understanding that the flexing he is doing, does not negate the fact that he has to also work on total body control, and esp shoulder control, so he is not about to teach a horse to rubber neck-that is ridiculous
Unless you have runa reining apttern, where a horse is run full out, yet guides on a loose rein, you really have no concept, and comapring apples to oranges, just won't cut it
So, unless bAUCHER


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

this is a general discussion about the whole concept of using neck flexions in training, not a bash of reining.

however, you do bring up a good point, Smilie, . 

do all reiners train as CA does? is it the 'standard'?
maybe you should start a thread on reining to explain it's history, and how it works and the training and all. I don't know much about reining. I don't have to tell you that.

but, that said, we are not just talking about reining. we are talking about horses, and fundamentally, all horses work more or less the same way. if this method of flexing is so productive, then why hasn't it been taught all along. why isn't it in common usage?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, that trainer didn't get too far with Mia!
Did Baucher rein a horse?
NOw, I am not a great fan of CA, but far as what he is doing with Titan, I don't see a probelm (just watched the first two)
In order to critique his training methods, there are a few requirements
_first, you have to compare a horse trained other wise, that is able to both run a reining pattern on a loose rein, and yet stay completely in control
Now if someone like Shawn Flarida, who has won many NRHA titles, has won over 3 million dollars in reining, were to say CA's flexing was wrong, then credibilty would be granted to that view.
Having people from entirely different discipline bash those videos, not understanding that the flexing he is doing, does not negate the fact that he has to also work on total body control, and esp shoulder control, so he is not about to teach a horse to rubber neck-that is ridiculous
Unless you have runa reining apttern, where a horse is run full out, yet guides on a loose rein, you really have no concept, and comparing apples to oranges, just won't cut it
So, unless bAUCHER TRAINED A SUCCEFUL REINER, I don't see application
To insinuate that a horse taught to spin, do rollbacks, does not have control of his front end and shoulders, is so ludicrous , can't even reply!
Plea, tell me how that would be possible
I don't spend a lot of time flexing a horse, esp at the standstill, but then I'm not trying to run a NRHA open pattern, but at least I have trained reiners in the past and ridden reining patterns
So, please, some input, far as CA's reining training, from people that actually have at least trained or ridden a reiner-it is different then riding the rail, or down the trail!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I didn't know who Shawn Flarida is, so looked up some videos on youtube;






such a nice picture! not pulled behind the vertical, horse is confident, happy and willing. so much more pleasing than what I've seen of CA's ride. was that hrose also trained in the same way? sure is a nice horse and a nice ride, and a nice bond between them.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> So, please, some input, far as CA's reining training, from people that actually have at least trained or ridden a reiner-it is different then riding the rail, or down the trail!



well, I'm hoping to get imput from a wide spectrum of horse people. try not to scare them off with requirements of having run a course or not.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

I was always taught that lateral flexion is a full-bodied exercise, and if it is not affecting the body than it is not performed correctly. This is from my novice notion that I was "just supposed to bend the neck back and forth" until they could touch my boot, which I had to go back and fix.

A correct lateral flexion has poll above the withers, face straight, and eventually flexion at the poll. In order to do this, the horse must flex his abdominal muscles and bend through the ribcage. This action is more important than the amount the neck bends. 

When the inside engages with the action of the lateral flexion, you have softness through the entire body and not just the neck. This engagement is what will keep a horse from rubber-necking. Later on when you ask for a soft feel through a bend, you do not need to take up as much bend in the face but the concept follows through. The horse also will cross over the hinds quite easily and softly. I say it's like doing horsey sit ups. 

I do not like CA's method because you can see that horse practically throw it's head into CA's boot and twist all the way through the neck. The horse is a very talented athlete to be able to twist around like that and still carry itself. But most horses are not that talented. Lateral flexion should be the establishment of softness and feel for horse and rider. Most people do not need that extreme amount of lateral flexion to develop their horses, and when they try to is when you see the problems with rubber-necking, falling on the forehand, and other biomechanical issues. Just my opinion.

I am just getting into the cowboy/western dressage scene which is making me look at my typically western/natural horsemanship background and combining it with dressage principles to get the results I desire.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> Well, that trainer didn't get too far with Mia!
> Did Baucher rein a horse?
> 
> ...Having people from entirely different discipline bash those videos, not understanding that the flexing he is doing, does not negate the fact that he has to also work on total body control, and esp shoulder control, so he is not about to teach a horse to rubber neck-that is ridiculous...
> ...


The lady in question did a world of good for Mia. She trained Lilly from the beginning and did a great job. She got Trooper past his fear of cowboy hats and helped my daughter and Trooper build an exceptional working relation. She changed Mia, making an unsafe horse a...less unsafe horse. Mia, in reality, was probably not bred to ever be a relaxed trail horse, suitable for riding between cactus!

No, Baucher did not do reining. That doesn't make him stupid or reading him a waste of time. Reining is no more the foundation of all good riding than dressage is. They are two of many horse sports, and both of those sports involve human judges. And humans often misjudge how horses really move.

This thread is so "_all will feel free to share what they were taught, what they have since learned works for them, and what they think about the way things are in the big leagues._" 

*As for what works and what does not work, I thought about it overnight and realized why I disagree with Baucher* and many clinicians. I AGREE that teaching flexing has its place, but NOT in the sense it is often taught, and NOT in the sense Baucher used it.

I think many get it backwards. Baucher believed you taught balance BEFORE motion, and you taught flexions to to make a horse obedient. This quote shows where he got it wrong:
."When the supplings have subjected the instinctive forces of the horse, and given them up completely into our power, the animal will be nothing more in our hand than a passive, expectant machine, ready to act upon the impulsion we choose to communicate to him. It will be for us, then, as sovereign disposers of all his forces, to combine the employment of them in correct proportion to the movements we wish to execute. "​.

In teaching the horse, what he actually was doing was teaching the correct response to the bit. An untrained horse does not know what a bit means. They are not born with the knowledge. A trained horse has often been trained wrong, so that it ignores or evades the bit. Been there, done that. The first step, then, in training a new horse to the bit or retraining a problem one is TEACHING the horse the correct response.

Any of my horses can reach around and nibble their flank while standing in the corral. THE HORSE CAN ALREADY FLEX!

What the horse doesn't know is to willingly flex in response to the bit. When I transitioned Mia to the curb, and others since, the first step is standing next to the horse and applying light pressure to the bit...then waiting. It may take 3-5 minutes before the horse moves its nose or head slightly. At the first instance of movement, release the pressure. Wait a minute, and try again. It may take a minute to get the right movement. In my limited experience, it then quickly follows that the horse will start responding - moving its head - within seconds, and soon as quickly as you make a tiny motion with the rein barely held between your fingers.

Softness. Softness comes from understanding, and trusting the hand of the rider to give the release when the horse gives the obedience. Yesterday, I posted:



bsms said:


> ...I'm a Craigslist rider of Craigslist horses. But like anyone else, I get to decide how I want to ride...
> 
> Softness, to me, is not an angle of the head. It is, so to speak, an "angle of the MIND" - *it is the horse paying attention to you and being willing to do what you ask*. When Mia (or Bandit, now) was "soft", I could accelerate at a kiss, slow at a whispered "Easy", and turn with my pinkie on slack reins.
> 
> ...


Baucher got it backwards. He thought a flexible neck created willing obedience, and thus flexing the neck and jaw created an obedient horse. He thought the obedience flowed from a flexible neck and jaw. But in reality, the soft flexing of the neck and jaw spring out of an obedient horse. They are the RESULT of obedience, not the cause of it!

Flexions are good for training a horse how we want it to respond to light cues. Many of us riders are mortals, and often ride with a heavier hand than we like to believe. And some of us get a horse like Bandit, who was taught any pressure on the bit meant "*STOP!!!!*" And flexions, from the ground and from the saddle while standing still, can help retrain him to the correct response.

And since many of us are mortals, who sometimes ride like Craigslist riders, flexions can help remind the horse of our goal.

But in using flexions, it would help if folks would remember that for every clinician, every Clinton Anderson, every Shawn Flarida, every Buck...there are about a million "Craigslist riders" trying to get it right, but without the experience and feel of Shawn or Buck!

And for them (and me), I think THESE videos teach more about flexions than what I usually see taught:


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

When focusing on specifics, the danger of overdoing always presents itself. It is always good to keep in mind how specifics relate to the broader perspective. 

Flexion is good and useful. So is firmness. Flexion is necessary for movement. Firmness is necessary for support. Except in brief instances, one is seldom more important than the other.

If an object is stiff, one might use a various methods to achieve flexion; application of moisture, heat, or introduction of various chemicals come to mind. Such things are seldom necessary with living beings unless addressing physical injuries. 

Trying to achieve flexibility on a rigid object simply through force can lead to breakage rather than flexing. Using force to achieve lateral flexion in a horse can lead to a form of breakage. This is usually seen in a “breaking at the withers” rather than a flexion throughout the body of the horse. 

When trying to achieve flexion in a horse that is stiff, we should consider why the horse is stiff. Is the horse stiff because its muscles are not able to stretch enough, or is the horse stiff because the horse is tense?

In the latter case, working to help the horse relax will produce better results than trying to force flexion either through simple strength or use of leverage.

In the former case, relaxation is also beneficial. In this instance, however, we must also work carefully to achieve a lengthening of the horse’s muscles. How we approach this matters.

We might think of our own body. If we cannot touch our toes while standing, would we want someone to simply push downward on our bent body until our hands touch our toes. This could be quite painful, cause a tearing of muscle tissue, and result in the need for time off to heal. When beginning the process again, we might need to deal with the additional element of scar tissue.

A better approach to stretching muscles is to take them to their present limit and hold for a while. We might, then, carefully take the movement a little further. With time, the limit of movement should increase. But this does take time.

When bending a physical object such as a metal rod, one sometimes bends the rod further than he wants it bent as an end result. He bends it further and allows it to retract somewhat. If bent too far, the rod may not retract enough – over-bending has resulted. Something similar is often see in horses that have been “hyper-flexed” longitudinally. The horse moves with an over-bending of the neck even on a slack rein.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

In the post above, I did not address if the horse should be taught flexing with a straight head or twisted one. That probably depends on if you value "straight" or not.

There are at least two ways a horse can perform a turn. To do it while remaining straight (vertically, directly over its feet), the horse shortens its strides (shorter wheelbase) and turns on an even circle, moving more with the outside legs. But to do it fast, the horse cannot afford to shorten its strides. Then it must dig in, and shove its front sideways:










Neither is wrong. It just depends on how you want the horse to move. Most horses, moving on their own, "know" digging in. Most do not appreciate "straight (up)" unless their rider teaches them.

When I got Bandit, it was obvious I needed to teach him a better way of moving. I consulted dressage (and Littauer) and heard about "Forward, Calm and Straight". But over the last year, I realized that doesn't convey what I want Bandit to learn, because it only involves body position and not his mind.

So I've modified it to "Eager, Confident and Agile". Eager suggests not just "forward", but WANTING to be forward. Confident suggests there is a REASON WHY the horse should feel calm. Agile includes more than one way of making a turn, and a trail horse needs options.

I would add a fourth value: responsive. Responsive is the value that results in 'softness'. It is a horse responding to your intent, if possible, or the smallest and most subtle cues you can give, because (to borrow Harry Whitney's phrase) his mind is with you. When a horse's thought is between your hands, it doesn't take dramatic action or force to move him.

So that is what I am trying to do with Bandit: Eager, Confident, Agile and Responsive. Flexions have a role in that by teaching him how I want him to respond to pressure on the bit. But good flexing teaches the horse's MIND, not his body! IMHO, as a Craigslist rider.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Tinyliny, I am glad you also presented that Branamman video in addition to CA. The second vid you posted is how I was taught to work lateral flexation. Ears level.

Smilie, there was something that Trocha said that I thought was right on. (paraphrase) “I should barely have to ask and the horse should give”. IMO that should go for all rein and leg cues, even though I don't ride reiners that is my personal preference. It is how I like to ride.

When we started training both Caspian (age 3) and Oliver (age 8) we worked quite a bit on that lateral flexation before we ever mounted up. There were several reasons for this.

1)	It was the beginning of teaching the horse to yield to lateral rein pressure and to do so with the softest possible cue even in a halter. Two fingers.

2)	It helped in stretching the horse through the neck and shoulder (like a runner does before running) and frees up movement and relaxes the mind.

3)	We would be working in the Bosal and it is not designed to be harshly pulled laterally, it is not like a bit that has a “stopper” to prevent it from being pulled through the mouth and could twist off the nose if you were to apply hard pressure to one side rendering it useless in controlling the head (thus the concept that control starts with training). 

4)	We would be using the one rein stop as an emergency brake to shut down bucking and bolting and as stated in #3 the horse must automatically yield to that pressure in the bosal even when panicked or a one rein stop will not be possible.

How I have found it useful: The horse giving me his head with the softest rein cue I can muster has flowed into roll backs (great for reversing in a tight space on the trail), side passes (good for opening and closing gates), leg yields (good for going avoiding objects at high speed), among other things. It is very nice to move a finger or two and have their head exactly where I want it and for us it started with learning and receiving a soft lateral flex.

In 1000 hours of riding we have never had either one of the horses practiced in lateral flexation rubberneck, try to snatch their head away or refuse to give when asked even in a tense situation such as a spook. The response in their case is automatic because it has become a trained response and requires no thought, which in a panic situation they have disengaged anyway. The horses were also taught shoulder and flank control so perhaps that is why they have never rubbernecked on us. I have also found it to be a soft easy way to get the horse to refocus on me in lieu of something like backing up or circling. 

CA is training a reining horse, none of mine will ever be a reining horse, but I have still found a lot of use in the technique by providing a very soft response in all the movements requiring the horse to follow his head that were trained after it. As a rider, it is also reassuring to know that there is that there is a trained in emergency brake beyond the usual should we need it.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

There are methods used in training, that just provide the flexibility, lightness, and are not the way a horse is ridden. 
For instance, counter cantering is used t to build strength,and obedience to leg, but you don't ride a counter canter as a routine way of riding a circle.
Alternating a small direct bend circle, with a counter bend circle is also used to teach shoulder control, yet you don't ride a counter bend circle, other then for atraining exercise
Thus, to compare someone running an actual pattern, just riding, with a warm up training exercise has no co relation
Some where we had this argument before, where Cheri had some very good input also, which refuted the fact of using this degree of lateral flexion taught a horse to rubber neck. I think I'll trust her riding experience and insight!
As a Craig list rider, BSMS, be assured a reiner has his mind soft, and some horses don't make reiners, as they do not accept being guided 100%, and need a 'job', thus make better working cowhorses. A reiner can have all the talent in the World, but if he is not soft in his mind also, there is no way in hell that you are going to get that horse shown, esp on a loose rein
I don't use much if any flexion, laterally, esp at a standstill, esp now that I ride more just on trails and some all around type classes that no longer include reining or cow work
In fact< i never used it to any degree like CA, but that doe snot mean that when people like Cheri and Sorrelhorse tell me that it indeed is a good training tool for a performance horse, able to do well in those stock horse disciplines, I try to have an open mind and maybe consider that my former ideas might have been somewhat flawed


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Honestly I sometimes wonder if some people ever stand and watch horses in the field at all.
Its a warm day here and we've got a lot of blackfly around - not a single one of my horses has any difficulty turning its head right around to scratch at its body - you don't need to spend hours training a horse to be able to do something it can do naturally
What you can do is train it to do these things to command and respond correctly to levels of pressure but only within the bounds of what's needed or you end up with horses that are going to get over bent and behind the bit at the slightest touch
What CA is doing in that video is no different at all to the thinking behind Rolkurr and Peanut Rollers, we've finally got rid of that practice so why start another one?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Horses also change leads all the time in the pasture, and we don't teach them those maneuvers either, just to do therm on command, at an exact spot and independent of direction
If CA's method is flawed, fellow reiners will speak out soon enough, and there is also the 'proof of the pudding' Bad training techniques do not produce champions.
THat is how rolkur and the spur stop are both being addressed- by knowledgeable people within that industry
Could be he is over using that tool, but in the meantime, to use comparisons of horses never trained in that discipline, as examples, is also rediclous.
I find training a horse to trot in place, un natural, esp the method used, but since I don't ride dressage , no dot bash the training needed to achieve that movement


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

What I am learning is that maybe that is what is wanted by the reiners. maybe the 'classical' way that I was taught isnt' right in absoluteness, just because it is taught that way. could that be so?

well, I'd be willing to believe that if I saw a lot of other people using that successfully, and if I didnt' see CA's horses running along behind the vertical. I've only ever seen people do this sort of flexing at pretty much a standstill, and the horse goes through all this patiently, and then continues on without a single cvhange in his suppleness.

I agree that exersizes used for training may not , in and of themselves, be how you'll ride your horse in it's intended way.

I also agree you shouldn't try to force a bend on a stiff horse, though you have to do something to change his way of going, unless you like riding a stiff horse. just riding him around til he relaxes might not be enough , or, his stiffness alone may be the source of his inability to relax under saddle.

and, while baucher talked about using softness to achieve obedience ,i Im sure it's not an immediate and absolute 'if A then B' sort of thing, that by getting him soft in the jaw he will kowtow.

but, what Baucher was talking about was a particular movement that takes place in the poll, and this 'unlocks' the spine and thus the hind end. in it's finest , least apparent form is when in dressage you ask the hrose to have the tiniest flexion to the inside, just enough to see his inside eye, AND, you ask him to do so with a soft jaw, hopefully relaxed. when this happens, you will find a softer access to his hindquarters. it works. it really does.

there really is some kind of connection between being locked in that axis/atlas joint area and being stiff throughout the body. it IS the key to suppleness, and Baucher knew that.

it's that rotation, that 'twirl' on the end of the neck, that has the head staying upright (not tipping to either side), while it moves on the first two vertebra to one side or the other.

it affects a DIFFERENT set of muscles, a different sort of stretching/suppling than if the hrose is allowed to roll the head over while reaching back (ala CA). 

try it yourself: try looking over your shoulder while keeping your head totally level. . . then try it by twisting so that your jaw goes more over your shoulder than the top of your head. each way affects different muscles. the first way you will not feel your body change in alignment. the shoulders will stay where they are; balanced. 
the second way, you will feel the inside shoulder lift and the outside shoulder drop, just a tiny bit.

yes, we are vertically oriented, while horses are horizontally. but, the same basic concept takes place. the flexion done one way stretches the body with out changing the horses overall 4 legged weight balance, while the other does change it, especially when done quickly and severely.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> this is a video made by Buck Branaman that describes how I was taught to flex the horse's neck;
> 
> I wish he spent more time explaining why he thinks it's important.
> 
> but he does speak on wanting to keep the horse from tilting his head to the side.


He did kind of touch on the "why" when he spoke of keeping the balance on all four quarters and not pulling the horse off balance through the movement of lateral flexation. He goes into it a little bit more here with regards to bringing out "classical movement" from the horse:


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I am also very tired as Smilie it, but I'll play for a little while.

Most of the arguments involve rubbernecking. To me, rubbernecking comes from when the trainer has no idea how to prevent it and thus creates the problem.

Correlation is not causation. Just because a bunch of people bent their horses around and lost control, does not mean it was caused because they bent the horse around - It happened because they did not teach body control at the same time.

When I go ride next I'm going to get a video of how Selena goes. You'll understand or you won't I guess. 

My horses will go any way I want. Anytime I want. I could be running down at 40mph, pick up that leg, lay on my inside leg and my horse would probably throw her head into my boot and keep running straight because I told her to. Her shoulders would NOT bow out. She would NOT lose her path. She would bend. That's it.

If all we can come up with is "Well it causes rubbernecks!" then that's a training problem, not an exercise problem.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

We all know that vertical flexion comes from lateral flexion.

Vertical flexion cannot be achieved fully without it IMO.

You will see horses as youngsters who run down to the stop and throw their head in anticipation - One of the most common exercises I use to fix that involves pulling the head around in that moment and immediately trotting circles (Like CA does in that video) to stop the anticipation, break the horse in half through their neck, and in turn you will notice a lot of my horses stretch their neck forward when stopping. That's why they do that - They have been taught to reach and round up and stop properly.

If I am working a cow you might see me, on a horse who hops (Sorry but that's something dressage horses do) instead of staying flat, I will back up a step, start my turn, and immediately take the nose and turn the horse before trotting off. Cowhorses stay flat. Dressage horses do not. The more upward movement, the harder it is on the horse, the slower you move, the more cows you lose.

If a colt is popping into his lead change (A fault in reiners but not in dressage) I will take his head away and encourage him to stretch it downward to one side, then press him off my inside leg and push him the other way and do the same thing (again)

If a horse is shouldering or being stiff on the barrel pattern? Same thing. Take the head to the inside. You will watch me do this and find that my horses hindquarters pop to the inside immediately and the shoulder stands up. Why is that, when all you guys claim it causes rubbernecking? Because my horse has BODY CONTROL. 

I can give you a hundred examples of how I would use this and I'm not sure I could really make you understand any of them, but that is there anyway.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> I didn't know who Shawn Flarida is, so looked up some videos on youtube;
> 
> NRHA Reining Futurity - Shawn Flarida Championship Ride - YouTube
> 
> such a nice picture! not pulled behind the vertical, horse is confident, happy and willing. so much more pleasing than what I've seen of CA's ride. was that hrose also trained in the same way? sure is a nice horse and a nice ride, and a nice bond between them.


You're literally comparing a finished, seasoned show horse to a horse with 5 months of riding with this post.

I'm sorry Tiny but that's not really a good argument.

And yes, I hate to tell you, I would be willing to bet that horse had a very similar start to what CA is doing with Titan. As someone who has spoken to a LOT of trainers (I had the best job ever, getting to go around, ride my horse, and talk to all the people more successful than me) including CA, Shawn, Andrea Fappani, Todd Bergen, Corey Cushing, and one or two others - Yeah, I feel qualified to make that assessment.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

SorrelHorse said:


> You're literally comparing a finished, seasoned show horse to a horse with 5 months of riding with this post.
> 
> I'm sorry Tiny but that's not really a good argument.



of course. I see your point. so, does this Flarida person use the same kind of flexion training as CA? is it a typical thing in all reiner's training?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

the point I was making, and the idea for this thread, was that all lateral flexion is not the same. 

I see a big difference in how the type of flexing used by CA (and espoused to many backyard riders who have no idea that they are supposed to be also gaining body control, not just yanking side to side) and that espoused by classical training methods in how they physically effect the body. it's almost as if they are two seperate things, rather than the same thing on different ends of a spectrum.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Yes. As you start a colt, then it is often more exaggerated, on older horses, you don't have to do it as much.

It's like I said in the other thread. Train 150%, warm up 100% you get 90% in the show ring. Given that Titan has had 5mo of riding, her is incredibly far along (Way beyond what any average horse is) and yet he is still in the bottom of the barrel for show prospects going to the NRHA futurity. Amazing, isn't it?

So we train. And we have to out train every single other person and horse, and we have to proof the behaviors, so no matter what we know that horse will respond. Because even one mistake, even raising his head a fraction of an inch in that event, is the difference between winning and losing and that is not an exaggeration.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If it proves to be essential for good reining horse training then that's something for reiners to add to their schedule - but as part of a general training schedule for other disciplines it would have the potential to be a major negative - which is what happened with rolkurr, using these extreme states of hyperflexion as a training method is not the same as training a horse to be responsive to hand and leg, to be 'soft' on your hands or using simple flexion exercises as part of your warm up routine and to help your horse stay supple as part of a correct physio session


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

SorrelHorse said:


> ...My horses will go any way I want. Anytime I want. I could be running down at 40mph, pick up that leg, lay on my inside leg and my horse would probably throw her head into my boot and keep running straight because I told her to. Her shoulders would NOT bow out. She would NOT lose her path. She would bend. That's it....
> 
> ...[Later post]: Because even one mistake, even raising his head a fraction of an inch in that event, is the difference between winning and losing and that is not an exaggeration.


My question: Why do you consider that desirable?

Outside of reining - and this is not a discussion of how to train a winning reiner, but what is good training for typical horses - why would anyone want a horse to run straight ahead with the nose at the boot? Personally - been there, done that, and did NOT enjoy the experience. It has been 30 years, and I'll be happy if I never repeat it.

I've never had a problem getting a horse to do a very hard 180 on a narrow trail without doing any flexing work, other than accustoming the horse to the feel of the bit.

This is a screen capture of Clinton Anderson riding Diez, and it looks pretty typical of how he was training Titan:










What is considered desirable about that?

And for reining in particular, why is raising the head even an inch considered a bad thing, while tucking it under is considered good?

I greatly prefer what I see in watching Shawn Flarida (I actually enjoy watching him ride, always have), but here is a screen capture, almost at random:










Given how a horse's vision works, why is it considered desirable to travel with a low head behind the vertical? And why would anyone wish to do so outside of a level arena?










https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_vision

It bewilders me as much as the peanut rolling of WP. Why? What function does it serve? Please understand: I'm ASKING about this for reining, not attacking. I reckon folks can do any sport they wish, provided they and their horses enjoy it.

Added: Another screen capture, from the same video. This I fully understand:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

apparently, as I read a bit more, the overflexing is a pretty common technique in reining training. has it always been that way? or , did folks used to go at a slower pace to build the horse up?

it seems to have similariies to the use of hyperflexion and roelkur in dressage, which are in vogue nowadays as a quick way to bring about flexibility. those techniques are generally disliked, but, if it works in reining, then maybe it shouldn't be so disliked? why don't dressage people use the sort of hyper lateral flexions CA uses?

any dressage people out there listening?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A bit of history...couldn't find anything on the Internet, so here are a couple of siding stop pictures from an older text book of mine...originally from Western Horseman in 1987:








​


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

This type of flexion seems believed to be important for the western disciplines but not for english. As someone said, it's not about getting the horse flexible through the neck and body, because the horse already is. It's about teaching a certain response to the bit. And that's where I find drilling this side to side movement is not useful, because once the horse learns to turn the head in response to the bit, in whatever degree is asked, then that's all they need to know. But I also need them to know how to keep a feel on the bit at times rather than ducking away from it, so they can tell what slight degree of turn I want them to have. 

Is it coincidence that the type of horses being drilled in this are the heavier muscled types that have less flexibility in the first place? I've heard farriers joking about how if they could combine the ability of most quarter horses to stand completely still during trimming with the ability of the Arabs to flex in every direction, they'd have the perfect horse to trim.

I've learned to be careful about what I teach the mind of the horse, which is much more important than what the body can do. The higher the speed, the more body tension and less bendiness you want through the horse's body. If a horse is galloping and you want to turn, you don't want the neck to fly around loosely at you. Instead, you want tension through the body so the horse can perform the degree of bend you are asking for. I'd rather start with teaching that giving to the bit doesn't mean craning the neck around, but rather just giving the degree of bend I am asking for. I think this is a more common teaching in dressage and english circles. 

Different styles of riding have to be taken into consideration. I have no use for throwing a horse's hindquarters off to one side, or moving just the shoulders over. Can the horse stop where I tell him to, turn on that spot, go through tight spaces and avoid or target anything on the ground at any speed? That is also body control, but different from the western style of body control. It's similar to the value of neck reining or direct reining to a person.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I suppose you could call me a dressage rider, to a point. I'm rather unconvential and I don't show.

From what I understand, overflexing a horse (rollkur, or the less extreme see sawing head into place) is a quick and dirty way to put a 'frame' on the horse. Overflexing the horse in this way forces him to be less resistant. From my personal experience, to get a horse to travel in the frame correctly is to get the horse to first move out and have impulsion, which essentially puts them working over their back. When they travel in this way, it strengthens and develops their muscles, most importantly the topline. It is like the difference between leisurely walking and power walking.
Once the whole of the horse is working the head naturally falls into place. From there, you would only need perhaps a minor adjustment of a few centimeters for the horse to be on the vertical.
From my understanding, there are two ways to build topline muscle on a horse, so that the horse will then be physically capable of going in a frame. One is the traditional and well known 'long and low'. The other is lots of working and extended trotting on the trail on varying types and grades of terrain. I do and prefer the latter, its more fun and better for the mind of the horse to get out of the arena.

Here is an excellent explanation of rollkur from this website.
Hmm... why does the position in this picture look familiar?
"Neck curled and bent grossly to the sides at medium trot"










"Training the horse deep involves the lowering of the head and neck below the height of the withers and/or placing the head of the horse with the nose behind the vertical, curving the neck accordingly. So the horse needs to have his nose significantly behind the vertical, but not necessarily the neck very low. Those practising deep like to call it Deep or Round, while those who shun it call it rollkur. (The derogatory expression comes from the German Rollkur which was a stomach remedy that one would drink, and then roll on the floor for it to coat the inside of the stomach.) The term was coined by German horsemagazine St Georg.

Not only are some dressage and jumper horses trained extremely curled in behind the vertical, they are usually also grossly bent to the sides, preferably during medium gaits or during rapid changes of direction and gaits. The bending appears to be mainly at the lowest cervical vertebrae, setting the whole rest of the neck to the side. Sometimes, but not always, the horse is also positioned at the poll.

In more traditional training methods the neck should never be more laterally bent than the rest of the horse's spine, to keep a working alignment of the vertebrae, to keep check of the shoulder, to keep the horse in balance and to keep the base of the neck steady and usable as a lever for managing the back. In rollkur, it appears that riders purposefully bend the neck to the sides in exess, to disengage the base of the neck, or to make it harder for the horse to resist. Proponents explanation range from suppling, stretching, and bending to disengaging the hindquarters(?) or "taking the neck out of the training".

Rollkur, Deep'n'Round and LDR should not be confused with letting the horse stretch Forward-Down-Out, chewing the reins out of the hands of the rider, seeking contact with giving reins. That kind of stretching was never intended as a training outline as such, but a mere control of the horse's seeking contact and letting the horse volontarily stretch, and to be allowed to relax for a moment, and stretch the back, in relaxation. It does not involve any placing of the neck by the rider since the horse is left to himself to stretch down naturally. This position approaches the grazing position, and has the same effect on the back."

Good explanation I think.

I have come to be able to recognize when a horse has been overbent. The neck muscles clearly show it. It is a very common sight in the Arabian horse shows.



















Notice the difference between those two horses and the following:




























Same breed. Same discipline. Different methods.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Bsms, you misunderstand - I do not want to go flying around with a horses head tucked to my boot, but you bet I could if I wanted - And my experience with that would not be comparable to yours, as I am assuming you did it very involuntarily, whereas what I am talking about would be out of total control.

And that's just it. Control. In a sport where I am not allowed any contact, where I cannot make any big move with my legs, where I am supposed to show how easily and willingly guided the horse is, I want them to be feather lite.

I don't get satisfied with a half result. Because if you train a manuever at only 75%, you warm up at 50%, and you show at 25%...Maybe fine for your local backyard saddle club schooling show, but not for somewhere you are riding for literally thousands of dollars on the line in a place where you would get laughed out of the ring. I'm not saying that to belittle anyone, because I honestly often have more fun at my local rinky dink club than anywhere else just do to the atmosphere, the degree of difficulty cannot possibly be ignored when we are talking about this.

People here say they love what my horses do. Selena, you watch her, she walks in the gate to run her barrel pattern. She doesn't swish her tail, pin her ears, chomp the bit, get light in the front end, or show any irritation. She just walks in and goes. This is after she's been sitting in the holding pen for five runs, given every opportunity to freak out, and she doesn't.






It's because she has body control. (granted in this video she is shown cheating me quite a bit, I don't pretend to be flawless) and from body control comes respect. If she was to lose her marbles a little bit, I would bend her around for a couple small figure eights just like CA did before straightening her up, trotting her forward, and sending her off left. 

It's all linked together. You can never have too much body control. Not ever. To me I find having them stretch a fair bit is good for the neck muscles (I like to do yoga and stretch personally) and I think it's good for them to do every now and then to keep limber. I mean yeah if you stayed there for two hours six days a week during work you'd get a kink in your neck, but we're not talking about that. A big stretch either way loosens up those muscles. 

Again, if I get satisfied with a horse only giving me 75% bend (Which is the case with a lot of the photos you posted) I would get slaughtered when I go into the show pen. Because 75% is easy. Anyone can get that. My brand new clients who have never had horses before can get that. But they can't get that 150% I keep talking about, because they don't know what real lightness is, and they don't know how to achieve it, and quite frankly it's much harder to feel than that 75%. 

I think you can ask any athlete of the human variety and they will tell you they train for more than what they are going to exert for the same reason. And endurance riders would say they trot for more miles than they are going to ride. I got the pleasure of watching our local LD club go once, one of the trainers I overheard talking to someone else, they said "If you're riding the 50 mile race, train like you're riding the 80 mile race."

Your horse gets conditioned for 80 miles, but you only make them go 50. As opposed to training for the 25 mile and trying to push them to go 50. See how that works?

I want to train for maximum bend, to my knee, in hopes that they have the stretch in their neck to go out and show without having even a single muscle be stiff. Stiff reiners hop in their turnarounds. Stiff reiners throw their heads into the stop. Stiff reiners nose out in the circle. Stiff reiners drop leads, can't change, can't get a rollback without nosing out. 

Flexible reiners can be manipulated with nothing but the tightening of the muscle in your hand. The feather touch of your spur. The exhale in your lungs. I'm not exaggerating, and I know that's hard to grasp when you have never ridden it, but it's true - When I am riding in the show ring, I hold my breath. Because if I don't, there's the risk my horse is gonna dashboard me looking for a place to get stopped.

That's the kind of lightness you want in EVERY part of the horses body. Shoulder. Hips. Ribs. Neck. Poll. Head. Forwards, backwards, left, and right - And on a totally loose rein.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> apparently, as I read a bit more, the overflexing is a pretty common technique in reining training. has it always been that way? or , did folks used to go at a slower pace to build the horse up?
> 
> it seems to have similariies to the use of hyperflexion and roelkur in dressage, which are in vogue nowadays as a quick way to bring about flexibility. those techniques are generally disliked, but, if it works in reining, then maybe it shouldn't be so disliked? why don't dressage people use the sort of hyper lateral flexions CA uses?
> 
> any dressage people out there listening?


Probably because reining horses have to be futurity ready by 3 years old and dressage horses aren't under the same time constraints. If you only had 2 years to get a horse performing at such a high level, you would have to do what works quickest. I imagine if you told a dressage rider their horse had to do a Grand Prix test at 3 years old for a huge purse, you would see all kinds of interesting techniques come out of the woodwork.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

bsms said:


> A bit of history...couldn't find anything on the Internet, so here are a couple of siding stop pictures from an older text book of mine...originally from Western Horseman in 1987:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We evolved. We got too good at our own game. Those horses in those books wouldn't stand a chance in the modern world. That's what I don't think you are understanding.

What happens when we can all do that? We can all do that, how does anyone win? We start getting better, adding more difficulty. The horses get better as well. And here we are. 

It is way harder to get a horse to the modern level of showing than it was the level shown in the 80s.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I've only skimmed.

Comparing Baucher's flexions to a reiners flexions is like apples to oranges. Baucher focused on the education and mobilization of the jaw to the bit. They are performed so that a horse will learn to seek out the contact and soften the jaw when contact is made.(And mostly in a longitudinal manner)

Very different goal than the other more common flexions where people want to the horse to give to the bit laterally.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

oh vair oh said:


> Probably because reining horses have to be futurity ready by 3 years old and dressage horses aren't under the same time constraints. If you only had 2 years to get a horse performing at such a high level, you would have to do what works quickest. I imagine if you told a dressage rider their horse had to do a Grand Prix test at 3 years old for a huge purse, you would see all kinds of interesting techniques come out of the woodwork.


 No one is going to start suggesting that dressage horses be ready for Grand Prix at 3 years old any time soon and thus begin using various hyperflexion techniques as short cuts in training because in that discipline the ship already left port and has since been found wrecked and abandoned because in the long run it failed big style. 
Versions of Rolkurr have been around since the 80's in one form or another, it was commonplace in the British show pony circles to leave a pony with its head tied to its chest for hours to develop 'muscle memory' because it was easier and faster than correctly training a child and a pony to ride into a correct outline - and because a show pony is in the ring from age 4 and the judges don't ride them it had a good success rate so caught on fast.
Its no different to working a young horse in tight side reins or tight draw reins - you're creating muscle memory and a headset via force rather than hours and hours of work to do it the right way
The problem with doing that in English riding is that when you get a horse that's in a false frame it's way less responsive to your hands in the correct way than it should be


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is a simple fact.
A the world of horse showing is designed to show degree of difficulty and train ability.Every event has become more specialized, more competitive, more difficult, and horses bred more specifically to excel in those events
Those horses of the past, would never be competitive against the specialists in that discipline today
Jaydee, really, have you ever ridden a reiner, to see how light they are to your hands? How can you make assumptions, having never ridden in reining, nor even have taken some reining clinics? 
It takes a heck of a more response to reins, to move off of that indirect rein, with a feather touch against the neck, to guide in a circle, simply by staying correct between those reins and legs, then being held there and supported by them
Gotta trot, to suggest that an Arabian has more flexibility, thus, the reasoning, would not need that flexing to be competitive in reining is pure garbage, as Arabians aren;t even that competitive in reining to begin with! NRHA is open to all breeds, and believe me, when 100s of thousands of dollars are up, those trainers ride not just the breed that excels in those events, but the bloodlines
Surely, there are people out there , even if not English orientated, that can at least appreciate the training, the mind, the bit acceptance, in a horse, that works on a loose rein, with a closed mouth,relaxed jaw, no cavasson required
When you take a cow down the fence, turn that cow at speed, have control circling that cow, both directions, with your classical English trained horse, I might be convinced that there is some merit in your remarks.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is a simple fact.
A the world of horse showing is designed to show degree of difficulty and train ability.Every event has become more specialized, more competitive, more difficult, and horses bred more specifically to excel in those events
Those horses of the past, would never be competitive against the specialists in that discipline today
Jaydee, really, have you ever ridden a reiner, to see how light they are to your hands? How can you make assumptions, having never ridden in reining, nor even have taken some reining clinics? 
It takes a heck of a more response to reins, to move off of that indirect rein, with a feather touch against the neck, to guide in a circle, simply by staying correct between those reins and legs, then being held there and supported by them
Gotta trot, to suggest that an Arabian has more flexibility, thus, the reasoning, would not need that flexing to be competitive in reining is pure garbage, as Arabians aren;t even that competitive in reining to begin with! NRHA is open to all breeds, and believe me, when 100s of thousands of dollars are up, those trainers ride not just the breed that excels in those events, but the bloodlines
Surely, there are people out there , even if not English orientated, that can at least appreciate the training, the mind, the bit acceptance, in a horse, that works on a loose rein, with a closed mouth,relaxed jaw, no cavasson required
When you take a cow down the fence, turn that cow at speed, have control circling that cow, both directions, with your classical English trained horse, I might be convinced that there is some merit in your remarks.
By the way, I was a Spruce Meadows, doing a demo, and thus had to ride through that international ring in that evening parade. Our stock horses, including the one that has won the Canadian Supreme in working cowhorse, both as a snaffle bit horse, and again as a bridle horse,down there for a reining demo, rode thought that ring, alert, but on a loose rein, while many other horses were bouncing off the wall. Guess their minds aren't too blown, huh?

Yup, working stock horses are just a bunch of rubber necking over bent , over muscled non athletic horses!
Fact-more maneuverability is required, then doing precise work, using two hand son the rein, never moving at fill speed!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

End result, note the horse is guiding on a loose rein at speed, and certainly has shoulder control, moving off that indirect rein in that spin-no rubber necking-body control
, along with being very light


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

SorrelHorse said:


> We evolved. We got too good at our own game. Those horses in those books wouldn't stand a chance in the modern world. That's what I don't think you are understanding.
> 
> What happens when we can all do that? We can all do that, how does anyone win? We start getting better, adding more difficulty...


Oh, I understand. It is similar to what Littauer wrote about jumping, writing in the 70s (I think):

"_But then there occurred in riding what has often happened before in other human activities - man's ambition to attain the barely attainable took over jumping; it forced many international horsemen to drop Caprilli's method and to search for other, more forcible means of making horses negotiate almost impossible combinations of obstacles. Today many of these horsemen will rightly tell you that Caprilli's basic tenet, that "there is little in common between ring riding and cross-country riding" could be altered to - "there is little in common between cross-country riding and international show jumping.' Show jumping has become a narrow specialty...Artificial jumping problems, and the corresponding artificial means of solving them, have placed such jumping just around the corner from the tanbark of the circus. Just as in former days our ancestors admired the particularly artificial feats of High School, so today many of us enjoy a new type of circus - unnaturally high obstacles assembled in tricky combinations.._." - The Development of Modern Riding, VS Littauer, pg 252

That is the nature of competition. IIRC, he said the highest fence jumped in the 1912 Olympics was only 3" higher than the lowest one jumped in 1960. As people and horses get better, the 'bar' has to be raised or else everyone will clear it, so to speak. That is as true in the reining world as in jumping.
_
"Comparing Baucher's flexions to a reiners flexions is like apples to oranges._" - ApuetsoT

Very true. But the thread was not dedicated to reining, but asking about differences and which was right...or maybe, are there multiple ways that work?

I won't pretend I enjoy watching Clinton Anderson ride. That is OK. I'm sure he'd as soon cut his legs off as ride like me! Heck, even _*I*_ don't like riding like me, but that is a challenge one faces when taking up a physical activity at 50. At 58, it takes me 20-30 minutes to start to feel OK on a horse, and even then folks would know I'm marginal.

I've always enjoyed watching Shawn Flarida ride. It is a sport that is entirely out of my league, as are dressage & polo & barrel racing and just about any other one.

Flexions are something I wonder about, and that is why I enjoy this thread. Bandit's original owner believed in doing 5+ minutes of flexions every time he got on. I do zero. Bandit is the closest thing we have to a "rubber neck" horse, but a sample of one proves nothing at all. He did the twisted style flexing, and I've thought about working with Bandit on the vertical style. Buacher also wrote about flexions for riders, and his method of training someone totally new to riding including 2 lessons a day, for a month, before the horse even moved! That sounds pretty weird, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder if he didn't have a point - at least for old guys who take up riding late in life!

Apart from my love of history, I think it is easier to understand where we are if we know where we came from. Like a lot of guys on the far side of 50, I often wonder if we progressed or regressed, but guys my age have wondered that since about 1000 BC...:wink:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

That is a nice post BSMS!
Yes, we all can decide at which level we wish to ride, and then go from there.
That flexion though, is just a small component, and a admit it can be wrongly applied, as often is done by NH followers. They will do that lateral flexion. but that is all, and completely ignore working on body control, esp shoulder control, and then yes, rubber necking can be the result, although any horse, including those never flexed, can rubber neck if they are not taught body control, hense the often seen result of a horse running off in one direction, following his shoulders, even though the rider has his nose and neck turned in the opposite direction. The point to remember though, it is not that lateral flexing per say, that is to blame, but the lack of adding body control to that picture-kinda the same as working on a head set for collection, without understanding that collection starts in the back, and that the head set is just a very small part of it.
You can have a head set, yet not be collected. Likewise, you can have a horse flexing laterally very well, but if that is all you do, and not teach body control, then you will have a horse that rubber necks.
Horses follow their shoulders, until taught to follow their nose with their entire body in alignment
The degree you wish to use flexing, depends on you rend goals. Better not to use it, then use it incorrectly.
I very seldom bother flexing a horse,once he is broke, after I get on, but then I am no longer trying to keep that horse limber enough to run a reining pattern, thus just do various flexing exercises while riding, if training, or none, if just going for a trail ride
Point being, unless trying to ride at that level CA is aiming towards, taking clinic from various other reining trainers, impossible to judge techniques based on other disciplines or just recreationally riding
I imagine fencing, used as part of reining training, would get a similar back lash


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

then , if these flexions are so productive, why are not every one using them? dressage, hunter jumper?

why am I told it is detrimental to the hrose? why does the horse look miserable when going through this training, and being ridden by CA, why does he have the horse curled behind the vertical, even after it is trained and is being ridden in competition?

I expect that I can now understand that reiners are under a whole different pressure to produce results, and produce fast. personally, I find that a sad situation to put a 2 year old under that level of push and pull pressure. the horse looks miserable, IMO. It makes me grit my teeth to watch him training that horse. there is no place for the horse, just a man bullying him into this and that as fast as possible, either with a pull to one direction, or a jab of the spur on the other.

and do not mistake him raising his head quickly to a natural position as him being 'relaxed" and happy. he just needs his head back where it isn't torquing on the nuchal ligament.

my guess is that if he were to deal with a horse that was already stiff in the neck and body, like an older horse, that the flexions he demonstrates would be far less productive to loosen up such a horse than the sort of flexion which is taught in classical horsemanship. it would never address the stuck place in the neck, but rather allow the hrose to avoid it and break in other locations, all the while pleasing the rider who sees a neck that torks far around to one side with the head all twisted off to the side. It LOOKS dramatic, but a very small tuck of the head done correctly is more likely to help a stiff horse, perhaps with years of going in a stiff way, to loosen up, than a dramatic swing of it's head back to the rider's knee.

count me a bit more willing to understand why reiners do this, but still repulsed by it , based on my caring the horse, itself.

oh, and Sorrel, you say you do not have ways to control these horses, so they must be taught to be feather light. but, you have a curb bit and big spurs, as much or more than any dressage or hunter jumper rider.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Gotta trot, to suggest that an Arabian has more flexibility, thus, the reasoning, would not need that flexing to be competitive in reining is pure garbage, as Arabians aren;t even that competitive in reining to begin with! NRHA is open to all breeds, and believe me, when 100s of thousands of dollars are up, those trainers ride not just the breed that excels in those events, but the bloodlines


To me it seems that if flexibility were the main requirement to be competitive in reining, then Arabians _would_ be better at it than stock breeds. But I think there are other more vital elements that most Arabs do not have, such as the ability to focus and concentrate on drills, explosivity that comes from having more bulky/fast twitch muscles, and the right "look" or frame to win. The only way we would know if Arabs needed as much work on flexion as a QH during training for reining would be to know of a couple top QHs and Arabs that were trained both with and without that style of training, and to know how it affected their success. 

There are some very good posts and points made here.
SorrelHorse has some good points about training for more than you actually need to compete. I just want to clarify in case of people reading this thread in the future: most endurance riders do not actually go a farther distance than the ride they are training for - I've never heard of anyone doing that. Yes, you train "as if" your horse would be going farther, but that means putting in some extra weekly miles, not doing very long rides. 

With long distance riding there is concern for over training, and people usually do a long ride of 12-20 miles before LDs, 25-40 miles or so before a 50 or 75 mile ride. It's more about the weekly miles you put on the horses' legs prior to a long ride, and the cardio conditioning. Just like with marathon runners who often don't train more than 26.2 but instead do a combination of shorter fast runs and longer slow runs that don't usually even get to marathon distance before the race. Once the cardio is in shape, you can split up runs or rides and put the miles in over the week rather than all at once to get the legs conditioned. If you try to do a 60 mile ride the week before a 50 mile ride, you may not have much horse for your race.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> then , if these flexions are so productive, why are not every one using them? dressage, hunter jumper?
> 
> why am I told it is detrimental to the hrose? why does the horse look miserable when going through this training, and being ridden by CA, why does he have the horse curled behind the vertical, even after it is trained and is being ridden in competition?
> 
> ...


Tiny , that 'big curb bit is used one handed , on a loose rein-big, big difference then riding with two hands and contact esp when using a pelham, plus a noseband, and often a figure 8 or dropped noseband on a jumper
Spurs with rowels actually distribute pressure , versus the concentrated pressure of an English spur. Not that these things are that relevant, but did need to be explained
Why does not everyone use it (the lateral flexion ).I though I answered that. The degree of suppliness and quickness,demanded of a western performance horse, in events like reining and cutting and working cowhorse, are never required in most English events
A finished reiner, is expected to run that reining a pattern on a loose rein, guided one handed, just by that horse having learned to stay evenly between those reins against his neck. He is not pulled around in that rolback, using two hands, nor is he direct reined in that spin.
Watch the video of Shawn Flarida, and then is it really that hard to understand, that western, unlike English, that horse eventually has to perform on a loose rein, with that "BIG BIT BEING A SIGNAL bit, and not one used with contact, riding two handed.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> then , if these flexions are so productive, why are not every one using them? dressage, hunter jumper?
> 
> *Because they don't need it to be frank. You guys are more on contact and straightness than relaxation.*
> 
> ...


Just my thoughts. I am so tired trying to justify the things I do to everyone.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> To me it seems that if flexibility were the main requirement to be competitive in reining, then Arabians _would_ be better at it than stock breeds. But I think there are other more vital elements that most Arabs do not have, such as the ability to focus and concentrate on drills, explosivity that comes from having more bulky/fast twitch muscles, and the right "look" or frame to win. The only way we would know if Arabs needed as much work on flexion as a QH during training for reining would be to know of a couple top QHs and Arabs that were trained both with and without that style of training, and to know how it affected their success.
> 
> There are some very good posts and points made here.
> SorrelHorse has some good points about training for more than you actually need to compete. I just want to clarify in case of people reading this thread in the future: most endurance riders do not actually go a farther distance than the ride they are training for - I've never heard of anyone doing that. Yes, you train "as if" your horse would be going farther, but that means putting in some extra weekly miles, not doing very long rides.
> ...


You are quite right that Arabians don't have the conformation to be great reiners, and why many Arabian reiners, mostly shown on their own breed circuit, are half Arabians. 
Not knocking the breed, as Arabians have their own niche in distance riding, due to their build. 
I was just addressing your idea that stock horses need that flexing, as they are so much naturally less flexable. ie,not really built to be athletic
Yes, you have to train for more then 100% outside of the showpen, so you can try for that 100% , with the stress of competition.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Not knocking the breed, as Arabians have their own niche in distance riding, due to their build.
> I was just addressing your idea that stock horses need that flexing, as they are so much naturally less flexable. _* ie,not really built to be athletic*_


I think there is a misunderstanding here, because in my mind and my experience, flexibility and athleticism do not go hand in hand. Having worked with some very obese and sedentary people, many of them are extremely flexible. Many athletes are also very inflexible. The bigger and bulkier muscles are, the less flexibility a horse or human has unless a lot of time and attention are given to stretching. Many athletes don't put the time into stretching that it would require to stay very flexible, so are more inflexible than the average person. I personally spend a lot of time running, riding and doing heavy lifting and very little time stretching. As a result, I am fit and athletic but quite inflexible. My husband lifts weights and does cardio workouts and also does not spend as much time stretching as he could, so he is not very flexible either. 
Since Arabs genetically have less of the fast twitch/bulky muscles and more of the slow twitch/endurance muscles, they have more natural flexibility. This does not make them more athletic, it makes them less good at fast bursts of speeds or sprinting, and better at endurance.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I feel your frustration, Sorrelhorse
I don't think most people that have always ridden with contact, understand what it takes to have a horse perform without it, nor to be able to totally guide a horse in all maneuvers, one handed, never mind, with speed added


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Did you know it's also a common misconception that solid stretching leads to more flexibility?

My human trainer preaches all the time that flexibility is something you are born with, and is actually minimally effected by stretching. Improper stretching can actually make it worse, as it builds the muscles up around it instead of loosening them. Proper stretching however can help you reach maximum genetic potential. 

After doing yoga myself and working with horses and dogs, I think I believe it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Yes & No concerning not being able to judge. I certainly am no judge of how to train a horse to be competitive in reining - or in dressage, or in polo, or in thoroughbred racing. Yet I can object to rollkur in dressage or the breeding of modern thoroughbreds based on general principles, and I can certainly recommend that average riders avoid rollkur or racing two year old horses.

And I have yet to see an explanation for WHY the rather extreme degree of flexing done by Clinton Anderson is helpful. And it IS something he recommends for all riders. I watch a video of his advice on trail riding, and he emphasized being able to take the head to his knee immediately, with no comment of any kind on 'shoulder control'. When your horse spooks at something that startles him on the trail, do this:








​ 
Clinton Anderson How to Correct a Horse That Spooks - Downunder Horsemanship - from YouTube​ 
This is what he says is essential to trail riding. Not reining, but trail riding. No discussion of shoulders, just pull his head to that position and "_get control of the horse's feet straight off the bat. Shut him down...once I've got control of him_..." (55 second mark)

Something I DO have a reasonable amount of experience on, enough to feel free to comment, is spooking horses.

1) Neither Mia nor Bandit would ever have their head that low anyways.

2) Without ever having done flexions with either, I have never had any problem just turning them 180 degrees in a narrow spot. Indeed, I've turned a number of Bandit's 180 degree turns into 360 degree turns, to the point I think he no longer sees much value in TRYING to turn 180, since we always end up facing the same direction we started. Same with Mia, and Bandit has done almost no flexing since arriving here and Mia never did much.

3) And with a lot of my riding on pavement, and most of Bandit's spooks coming in neighborhoods and on pavement, whipping his nose into that position looks positively dangerous to me. It looks like a GREAT way to dump a horse on the road. If your horse leaps forward and you do that...no thanks!

He is not just saying severe flexing is good for training a reining horse in competition. He wants trail riders to practice it, and demonstrates it by pulling the nose to the foot, as a way to handle spooks. And I have ridden a ton of spooks, successfully, without bringing a horse's nose there. Indeed, the only time I tried it was in Idaho around 1980, and it was very ugly.

FWIW, that also has nothing to do with the way I was taught to do a 'One Rein Stop'. Although I personally prefer a "Two Rein Stop", either via a Pulley Rein or a curb bit.

PS - Jogging since 1972. That is why my hips are so tight...


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

bsms said:


> ​
> This is what he says is essential to trail riding. Not reining, but trail riding. No discussion of shoulders, just pull his head to that position and "_get control of the horse's feet straight off the bat. Shut him down...once I've got control of him_..." (55 second mark)


Now THAT can be very dangerous. "Shut him down..." That technique could lead to an explosion from a reactive horse, and become a very dangerous situation for the rider. You can't "shut" a horse's brain down, but you can make him panic from claustrophobia or being unable to see or escape from what he is afraid of. If I saw someone do that to a spooking horse on the trail, I'd have to step in and give them some advice, which if they did not accept it I would leave the situation before it involved me and my horse too. The wrong frightened horse is going to run right into those trees or through that fence.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

that is a one rein stop, and of course, a horse has to know how to give his head, before you ever take it away on a trail ride.
I think Cheri has posted enough about the one rein stop, that I'm not going to be redundant
That is the way to 'shut a horse down, that offers to bolt, BSMS, and not by relying on a curb bit, as with Mia.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> Now THAT can be very dangerous. "Shut him down..." That technique could lead to an explosion from a reactive horse, and become a very dangerous situation for the rider. You can't "shut" a horse's brain down, but you can make him panic from claustrophobia or being unable to see or escape from what he is afraid of. If I saw someone do that to a spooking horse on the trail, I'd have to step in and give them some advice, which if they did not accept it I would leave the situation before it involved me and my horse too. The wrong frightened horse is going to run right into those trees or through that fence.


 Haven't ridden many colts out, have you?
It is not the true fear spook you shut down, but the attempted bolt after it. If you can't take the head away and disegage those hips, good luck in keeping a horse that wants to bolt, from doing so!







I can see where people here don't get that lateral flexion, in the context it is used, confusing the one rein stop with it. Not understanding application of shoulder control, riding, with just shuting a horse down
Trotting, there are ways to try and ride a horse past something he might wish to spook at, as I have gone into before, but all that is immaterial when riding a horse that has already spooked, and then tries to leave the country. What is your solution-hang on and hope for the best???
Pardon me, if I would not be taking advise form you, trial riding!


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Some horses are like a whole different animal from your average riding horse. @gottatrot and @bsms have ridden very 'high-minded' arabians. The one-rein stop is a great way to shut down a horse getting ready to bolt, but its not the only way. And sometimes, its not the best way to do it. I refuse to do a one-rein stop when the horse goes beyond a slow canter. I am not willing to risk suddenly pulling that horse's head to the side and both of us going down when the horse does 0-60 in two seconds. Because I have been in that situation a few times, and I know that gottatrot and bsms have been there more often than I have. 

Speaking of which, OT and we should probably grab a different thread, but I would love to hear from gottatrot and bsms on how to shut down a bolting horse that doesn't respond well to conventional methods.

I think that all of us know that BSMS did the best he could with a difficult mare, and probably saved her from the meat packer. No point in continually bringing her up and pointing out things that you don't like or would have done different. No need to make what is supposed to be a discussion into a backbiting argument.

I don't think that anyone is intentionally 'ragging' on reining, though it may have been perceived that way. I can appreciate the number of hours that go into creating a good performance horse of any type. I can appreciate a well trained western pleasure, reiner, cowhorse, dressage horse, jumper, endurance horse, trail horse, etc. I'm sure most others can as well! It is when something simply doesn't look right, and even after hearing the theory behind it still doesn't look/feel right, that others begin to question. Sometimes they are right, sometimes wrong.
I can think of one example. Back in the day, the fad used to be for driving horses to pull with their heads held up in the air by an overcheck. This was considered fashionable. It was also detrimental to the horse as he could not pull as well with his head down and I'm pretty sure that no drivers would ever want to do this to their horse in modern times. But it was a good, fashionable, correct thing back then in the eyes of society.
Thus are the evils that we face in human society, especially where money, looks, and competition are involved. It is up to each of us to understand the how and why before we judge, and if we find the practice to be detrimental and bad and evil, to call it out.

And there ends my OT rant. I'm sorry. I felt a need to address the underlying hostility firing back and forth on numerous threads.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

gottatrot said:


> I think there is a misunderstanding here, because in my mind and my experience, flexibility and athleticism do not go hand in hand. Having worked with some very obese and sedentary people, many of them are extremely flexible. Many athletes are also very inflexible. The bigger and bulkier muscles are, the less flexibility a horse or human has unless a lot of time and attention are given to stretching. Many athletes don't put the time into stretching that it would require to stay very flexible, so are more inflexible than the average person. I personally spend a lot of time running, riding and doing heavy lifting and very little time stretching. As a result, I am fit and athletic but quite inflexible. My husband lifts weights and does cardio workouts and also does not spend as much time stretching as he could, so he is not very flexible either.
> Since Arabs genetically have less of the fast twitch/bulky muscles and more of the slow twitch/endurance muscles, they have more natural flexibility. This does not make them more athletic, it makes them less good at fast bursts of speeds or sprinting, and better at endurance.



Arabs would not do as well in reining because they are not as malleable . The will not tolerate the head Cranking and yanking that is necessary to train to win.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Haven't ridden many colts out, have you?
> It is not the true fear spook you shut down, but the attempted bolt after it. If you can't take the head away and disegage those hips, good luck in keeping a horse that wants to bolt, from doing so!
> 
> 
> ...



You really speak to people here as if you consider them all barely tolerable idiots


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

This is more the temperament of horse I'm used to: panic first, think later. This trainer uses flexion, but more in the manner I would...letting the horse move rather than trying to shut down movement. It's very necessary for the reactive, claustrophobic horse if you don't want a wreck. I don't do anything out of the ordinary, except I've learned from experience to let a panicking horse keep moving instead of applying too much mental pressure to try to make the horse stop. Try to stop some horses completely and they'll go up or fly backwards or spin, especially if they can no longer see what scared them. 

Yes, I've started horses and been the first out on the trail, and ridden many green and problem horses out as well. I don't disengage the hindquarters because I'd rather have the horse turn a tight circle. I don't want the hindquarters disengaged, I just want the front end going where I say. If I ask the horse to turn his head clear around, I want his body to go there too. 

I've seen a lot of people get bucked off or reared off because they got scared and tried to make their horse stop completely when the horse wasn't mentally capable of stopping at that moment. That is the advice I'd give, don't try to stop if your horse is that far gone. I've been there myself when I hadn't ridden enough panicky horses. People think "one rein *STOP*." Instead, if a horse is really panicky it should be thought of as controlling the horse's direction and speed. Sometimes a tight, quick turn or two is enough. If the horse's energy continues to build, better to get some distance between the frightening object instead of trying to stay near it. 

Ideally, you can trot away, circling or weaving if the horse wants to go too fast. If the horse bolts with no warning, we do what is safe. Most types of horses run out of steam pretty quick. The few rare ones that are taking off for the next state and not listening to me will get flying lead changes applied via pulley rein (one hand held steady in the mane, other hand half halting strongly from the two point position) to mess up their gallop and serpentines or circles if there is room and footing available. Like @horseluvr2524 (good words, by the way), I would not try to disengage a horse's hindquarters at high speed. Much better to disengage the front end by forcing lead changes. 

Honestly, I haven't ridden enough stock horses regularly to say if perhaps a different technique is better for them, I'm talking here about TBs, Arabs and the like. The stock horses I've ridden have just halted when asked and not been spooky enough to need any remedial action. Of the QHs, Appys, Paints, Drafts, or Mustangs I've ridden I can't think of one that was very spooky or hot, or bolted or reared. That doesn't include Appendix bred, since I've ridden some of those that were quite reactive.

Yes, fairly off topic but somewhat on topic if you consider flexion used as Clinton Anderson does it versus flexion where the horse follows with the hindquarters - which is more "english" style. And flexion versus the one rein stop. 




The horse in this video at 8:30 on is one that could have turned out really dangerous by trying to use this flexion/one rein stop. If the horse had not calmed down after starting to go up, he could easily have gone over, bucked really hard or fallen with the rider.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

I have ridden a rubber-necked horse who bolted with me through trees, his body straight while his nose was to my knee. There CAN be too much flexion, and it shouldn't come from the horses' neck alone, but flow in an even bend through the entire body.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> then , if these flexions are so productive, why are not every one using them? dressage, hunter jumper?
> 
> why am I told it is detrimental to the hrose? why does the horse look miserable when going through this training, and being ridden by CA, why does he have the horse curled behind the vertical, even after it is trained and is being ridden in competition?
> 
> ...


If I get on a horse, and pick up the reins (and that is all, just pick them up) and that horse drops his nose, he is afraid of the bit. 

The only flexing I have ever done was before mounting up the first few rides on green colts. It is a reminder that they need to turn when they feel the bit or halter. They are not "soft " until they are moving forward, relaxed.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> Arabs would not do as well in reining because they are not as malleable . The will not tolerate the head Cranking and yanking that is necessary to train to win.


Oh, yes, they will. Spend some time at an Arabian show watching the schooling at night....


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Arabs are very popular in reining, just saying.

I have been taught that unless you are going around a corner, turning, or doing a rounded figure, the neck stays straight in the middle of the horse's chest with only slight inside flexion. My horse is a rubber necker, but he's getting better.

I ride amateur level dressage, but over bending him has done nothing for him. Circles should come from the shoulders turning and hind legs stepping under not the neck being cranked around...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie - I don't need to ride a reiner to know what a light horse feels like
You ask me if I've ever ridden a reining horse - well actually yes I have and I can't say that I was impressed because it was miserable, sullen and rode like a horse that had had all the spirit intimidated out of it. I rode it because the seller thought it might be suitable for 'Euro' or western dressage but as it was so 'rubber necked' it was impossible to get 'true' collection out of it 
Now - I ask you if you've ever ridden a properly trained dressage horse because going by the fact that you think they're heavy on your hands and you think that riding 'in contact' means that a horse is in an iron grip and 'heavy' you clearly haven't
What you seem to be ignoring or maybe you aren't aware of, is that the use of extreme hyperflexion was being used in dressage horses and show horses when CA was just a twinkle in his father's eye - or at least still in diapers
It's nothing new
These 'reiners' haven't invented the wheel
What you think is some new amazing innovative training method that magically produces a 'light, soft horse' isn't new at all and what you also don't seem to realize is that the use of hyperflexion is now frowned on in dressage and British showing classes because far from producing great results it produced very negative one's
Please don't confuse training a horse to do a 1 rein stop with what CA is doing in that video


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> Arabs would not do as well in reining because they are not as malleable . The will not tolerate the head Cranking and yanking that is necessary to train to win.




Arabians lack the hind end build to be reiners. My son's ex showed Arabian reiners, and most were half AQHA
Arabians aren't the only high strung hoorses, as that AQHA Crimson War bred stallion sure proved


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Smilie - I don't need to ride a reiner to know what a light horse feels like
> You ask me if I've ever ridden a reining horse - well actually yes I have and I can't say that I was impressed because it was miserable, sullen and rode like a horse that had had all the spirit intimidated out of it. I rode it because the seller thought it might be suitable for 'Euro' or western dressage but as it was so 'rubber necked' it was impossible to get 'true' collection out of it
> Now - I ask you if you've ever ridden a properly trained dressage horse because going by the fact that you think they're heavy on your hands and you think that riding 'in contact' means that a horse is in an iron grip and 'heavy' you clearly haven't
> What you seem to be ignoring or maybe you aren't aware of, is that the use of extreme hyperflexion was being used in dressage horses and show horses when CA was just a twinkle in his father's eye - or at least still in diapers
> ...



Who is confusing the one rein stop with what CA is doing in that video-not me!
A picture in this thread, from a trail riding article, showed CA using it, with advise how to shut a horse down that was trying to bolt, and with that poster,(BSMS ), relating it to the flexion shown in the training video
It was hardly I that was confused, and pointed out that CA was using a one rein stop.
Reiners I have ridden, and those of friends I know, whose horses have won at top level, are not sullen but happy
We all get exposure to negatives. My niece, who rode dressage out in Ontario-a strong hold of that, versus Alberta where working horses are still more valued, wanted to go for atrail ride.
She was using hubbys horse, and asked if she could use my Stubbin saddle and English brilde. I saw no problem, so agreed.
When she asked me for gloves though, in the middle of July, I had to ask why.
Her response was that otherwise she might cut her hands on the reins. I told her she would not be riding one of our horses with that degree of contact. Yes, I realize could be she had a poor trainer, but you can also see where that idea can come from., along with observing pictures in Gaitpost, as sale magazine geared towards English horses
Far as your thoughts on rubber necked reiners- don't know how one could run a reining pattern, but whatever, maybe read Sorrelhorse's post and respond to her, as she is actively riding reiners at the moment, while it has been years for me
No doubt the horse you rode was confused, as happened when we sold a horse that I and my son had shown in reining and cattle events, to amom, whose kids were riding with an English instructor
My son went out to tide the horse, because that trainer could not keep the horse on the rail even. She had an iron grip on his mouth, and was accidently cuing him for rollbacks.
My son got on, and the mom said that was the best she saw the horse go, even with him riding English
Thankfully he went to a working ranch after that, were they used hi whenever they needed a hard cow to get in ,and raved about his ability
There were some poor western horses sent to Europe, while some poor dressage horses were sent our way
Where did I say I considered it amazing new training technique? Now you are putting words into my mouth also!
I said I saw nothing negative or obvious earth shattering abusive riding
I can appreciate good horses in other disciplines, but it often seems that I get led down the path of a counter attack, because people , esp from an English background, seem qualified to judge any western riding, while hold Dressage as a golden standard-and that becomes tiresome


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Arabs are very popular in reining, just saying.
> 
> I have been taught that unless you are going around a corner, turning, or doing a rounded figure, the neck stays straight in the middle of the horse's chest with only slight inside flexion. My horse is a rubber necker, but he's getting better.
> 
> I ride amateur level dressage, but over bending him has done nothing for him. Circles should come from the shoulders turning and hind legs stepping under not the neck being cranked around...


Any breed of horse can do an event at some level, if he is athletic.
There have been very rare Arabians that have won NRHA major titles,Appaloosas are also popular in dressage, with some having gone Grand Pix, but that does not have them up there with Warmbloods, far as dominating that discipline Ditto for Arabian reiners
I know how to ride a horse on the straight, and patterns, and hardly have horses that rubber neck.Read Sorrelhorse's post, on that, as she has explained very well that using that flexing does not mean you forget about body control, and don't have that on the horse
Again, I'm all ears to hear it explained, how a horse able to spin with speed, change leads on a loose rein, do rollbacks, run good fast and slow circles on a loose rein, one handed, rubber necks
The association is so ridiculous, that it can't even be answered


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

greentree said:


> Oh, yes, they will. Spend some time at an Arabian show watching the schooling at night....



Yes, there is a reason that they carry their head in that tight intimidated behind the vertical way of going!
Also seen Arabian halter horses whipped outside ,, before going in, so they had that animated bug eyed way of going, for that halter class

We can continue to go down the path, and find faults in breeds and disciplines outside of our own, or we can try to be more understanding, when people actually in those disciplines post info


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

​


Saranda said:


> I have ridden a rubber-necked horse who bolted with me through trees, his body straight while his nose was to my knee. There CAN be too much flexion, and it shouldn't come from the horses' neck alone, but flow in an even bend through the entire body.


True, any horse without shoulder control, can rubber neck, and never needs to have been flexed-period.
I think I have posted this many times, but a horse naturally follows his shoulders, until taught to follow his nose with his entire body. Thus the senerio as you mentioned, with the horse running off in one direction, following his shoulder while you have head and neck cranked in the opposite direction.
However this is not the result of using flexing, but the result of also not teaching body control. A horse not taught shoulder control, can run off at the shoulder, and never have been flexed


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Okay , never read all the posts, but stock horses, Trottin, certainly can try to bolt , and that one rein stop saved my bacon when Smilie got into a nest of ground hornets. Being able to take her head away, allowed me enough time to step off, as she was being stung
Is the one rein stop always the tool you should use. Nope. Not on a horse not taught it first, or one that has gotten into a full blown bolt.
I have ridden a bolting horse only a few times, and they were horses we bought, not raised, as that TB' app mare off the track
If you don't think a stock horse will ever try to bolt, I doubt you had a coyote jump out from under a pile of stacked and tarped bales, as you rode by!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...That is the way to 'shut a horse down, that offers to bolt, BSMS, and not by relying on a curb bit, as with Mia.









​
Offers to bolt? You never met Mia. The very phrase is foreign to me. Bandit doesn't "offer to bolt" either. Happily, he isn't a real bolter at all. But he has been known to carry a 6'3" rider sideways through a neighbor's yard, and the same guy (a lifelong rider) ended up on the wrong side of the saddle horn about an hour later.

Nor would that "shut down" a horse like Mia. It would spin her up and increase her fear. You COULD spin her around in a 180, although (and this was my main point) it just required a good tug on the rein to do so. You would then do X (180 deg spins), where X is a number between 2 and 12. And when she did stop spinning, her emotions would confirm that what she suspected was scary was truly terrifying, and deserving of terror the next time. Which then taught her - I did it and learned from hard experience - it *TAUGHT* her to become *MORE* spooky.



Smilie said:


> Haven't ridden many colts out, have you?
> It is not the true fear spook you shut down, but the attempted bolt after it. If you can't take the head away and disegage those hips, good luck in keeping a horse that wants to bolt, from doing so!
> 
> ....What is your solution-hang on and hope for the best???
> Pardon me, if I would not be taking advise form you, trial riding!


First, one CAN turn a horse 180, when they spook, as they are gathering themselves for a bolt (IF they do, and not all do), without pulling its head to your foot. That was the point I was trying to make. I've never owned a horse I couldn't turn 180 with a TIMELY hard pull on a rein, without moving the head or neck very far. Maybe that is BECAUSE I don't do a lot of flexing, so a pull that moves the horse's head 20 degrees, done as a sharp tug, is sufficient to turn the horse around.

Maybe it it because both Mia and Bandit walk faster than my other horses, so we spend a fair time doing figure 8s on a path with cactus to either side, and thus they are used to doing a 180 turn right away when asked, even with just a little rein pressure.

And yes, one reason I like curb bits is because a curb bit was so effective at stopping Mia straight ahead, at her first jolt of fear. Doing spins would SPIN HER UP, emotionally. Keeping her straight ahead, but not bolting forward, made it possible for her to calm down. She had 3 lessons of about 45 minutes each in the arena on how to respond to a curb. We had a couple of rides outside the arena where she figured out a curb was harder to evade. And then we had a ride where she spooked, started to lunge forward, was "curbed" (restrained - the definition of curb)...and then realized the scary thing was already moving away. She was an intelligent horse, and you could see the light bulb go on. "_I stay in place, and the scary thing runs away? Cool!_" We still did sideways jumps and some pretty hard spins after that, but she never bolted again.

I realize not all horses respond the same way, to anything, including to curb bits. I've been experimenting with curb bits on Bandit, but he actually seems better with either a plain snaffle or even bitless than in a curb. But he is not a bolter. He doesn't try to run away, but to move sideways or spin 180, and a curb bit is not a good design for a horse who responds to fear that way. A snaffle or even a sidepull just works better.



Smilie said:


> ...I can see where people here don't get that lateral flexion, in the context it is used, confusing the one rein stop with it. Not understanding application of shoulder control, riding, with just shuting a horse down...


I've only seen a few CA vidoes, but most of them don't discuss shoulder control. Maybe he discusses it in the full Titan video, which I have not watched clear through. My concern with the severe flexing is rooted in my belief that it is easier for a typical rider on a typical horse to control direction via head & neck control, provided the head and neck have NOT become disconnected from the shoulders!

I've asked, but have not heard, why someone would want a horse to move forward at speed with their head turned around, or how "nose to toes" is in someway helpful to the average rider on the average horse. A horse who follows his nose is pretty easy to steer. A horse who ignores his nose is much harder to steer - at least for the typical recreational rider.



horseluvr2524 said:


> ...I don't think that anyone is intentionally 'ragging' on reining...I can appreciate a well trained western pleasure, reiner, cowhorse, dressage horse, jumper, endurance horse, trail horse, etc. I'm sure most others can as well! It is when something simply doesn't look right, and even after hearing the theory behind it still doesn't look/feel right, that others begin to question. Sometimes they are right, sometimes wrong.
> 
> ...Thus are the evils that we face in human society, especially where money, looks, and competition are involved. It is up to each of us to understand the how and why before we judge, and if we find the practice to be detrimental and bad and evil, to call it out....


Very true! I admit I enjoy watching Shawn Flarida ride, although it is not my sport and I'll never have the skill. Some dressage riders put a smile on my face too. But some things just seem wrong to me. I hate watching a WP horse 'canter'. I hate seeing a dressage horse whose curb bit is parallel to the ground. I hate seeing a trail horse with its head up and mouth open. There are good and bad riders in all riding, but it is reasonable to question the things that seem...unnatural.

Thus my question, which remains unanswered so far, "Why is this considered good riding?"


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...A picture in this thread, from a trail riding article, showed CA using it, with advise how to shut a horse down that was trying to bolt, and with that poster,(BSMS ), relating it to the flexion shown in the training video
> It was hardly I that was confused, and pointed out that CA was using a one rein stop...
> 
> ...because people , esp from an English background, seem qualified to judge any western riding, while hold Dressage as a golden standard-and that becomes tiresome...
> ...


You are confused, Smilie. You totally missed my point. If I can get my horses to do a fast 180 with a quick tug on a rein, why would I want to do "nose to toes"? 

And if CA feels the need to do nose to toes, is it BECAUSE he has over-flexed his horses? Has he caused a disconnect between the horse's neck and shoulder that does not naturally exist?

Ever seen a picture of a wild mustang racing forward with its head twisted totally around? Neither have I. A horse MUST follow its shoulders, but it NORMALLY follows its nose...all without a human training it to do so!








​ 
And I ride about 90% of the time with one hand, and Bandit has reached the point where I can often keep him pointed the right way when nervous or unhappy with one hand, using an approach to neck reining that looks more like polo than WP.

I'm also widely believed on HF to be anti-dressage, although I reject that label. I've learned too much from books on dressage. But I am hardly questioning extreme flexions, nose to toes, based on a blind devotion to classical dressage!

It is not personal. It is not anti-western riding bias. It is a question, still unanswered: Why? What do people who like a very high degree of flexing think it buys them? Why might someone else want to follow that example?

BTW - Mia and Bandit have met rattlesnakes & coyotes without bolting or "offering to bolt". Bandit had two rabbits run under him yesterday & didn't flick an ear. He dislikes dogs racing out after him, but he limits his response to defense...he'll kick, but not spook.

Now, a garbage can lying on its side....THAT is a whole different ballgame! :rofl:


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^I'm guess the above is considered 'good riding' because a 'good rider' knows that a horse's movement and direction comes from their shoulders and hindquarters, and not their head or neck. 
I see so many novice riders steering with the mouth--but you can crane a head around all day and night and still not go in that direction, as we see above.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Then why is it I've never had a problem getting my horses to follow their noses? Yes, a horse may unbalance enough to tilt its head out for balance a little left while going right, but that is just a matter of getting him used to a rider's weight and balancing without that.

But I've only had one horse run somewhere with total disregard for its nose, about 35 years ago. And FWIW, that horse was a cutting horse (ranch, not competition).

Why would I deliberately train my horse to go fast in one direction while its head was in a different direction? Why would I WANT that? Am I the only person who wants his horse to look where he is going?

I've done a lot of jogging, but I've never done it with my eyes closed. Why would I want my horse moving forward without good vision?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie - the horse I rode was here in the US, not in the UK and not with 'English Trainers'. The barn is primarily a western one, they specialize in horses for western competition (not rail classes) and trail riding horses.
If you were to ride a dressage horse or even a show jumper you'd understand why constantly using extreme hyperflexion in training is a negative and not a positive in that area of riding - and yet there was a time when many top dressage riders were using it to the detriment of the way the horses performed. 
People are easily blinded by what they think is something great because its presented by a rider they admire and see as an authoritative figure in the horse world


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

too bad I can't share a Facebook link. Today, received a post from someone who I know, and who also raised reining horses. He posted the sad passing of this mare, at age 23, who he sold to California. The post has pictures of both the mare reining, an doing a sliding stop, and on a relaxed trail ride, having been used for that purpose in her new Home.It also shows her as a broodmare. In all of the pictures, the mare looks happy, relaxed, enjoying her job, whether she was reining, or taking some kids on a safe trail ride.
She is also working on a loose rein, whether in that stop or in the picture of her crossing a creek
My last foal out of my reining mare, was by this man;s stallion, a horse who was very successful on the open reining circuit, against all breeds, and is an Appaloosa
Jaydee, how well do you think the reverse would occur-someone taking a dressage horse and trying to make him into a reining horse?
Maybe the horse you rode had a poor foundation, and was never trained successfully even as a reiner. What NRHA winnings did he have? Could he also have been a reining flunk out, looking for a new job?
Your example does not mean much, without knowing what level of reining training the horse had in the first place, and if that training was ever proven against tough competition
Anyway, why not respond to Sorrelhorse's response to Tiny's post, which included the flexing, as I have to admit that I never used it extensively, as I am sure she can respond to your comments better than I


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

Hmmm. I do it a bit differently; I do three exercises from the ground prior to mounting:

Jaw suppling - to make sure she responds to the bit; I drop the reins as soon as she responds so she knows she did it right.
Poll flexion - indirect rein aid, again from the ground, like unlocking a door; as soon as she responds, I drop the reins; repeat on the other side.
Neck flexion - I carefully take her head back to the saddle; and drop as soon as she gives; repeat on both sides. This is more for my own information, because I can usually tell if one side is tighter than the other and sometimes I can see the saddle move; if she is super tight on one side, I might then do a leg stretch on that side and/or adjust the saddle. I might also address the tightness once I'm in the saddle by working on lateral suppleness and lightness in the shoulders.

I've never taken her neck all the way back like that when I'm in the saddle.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

After reading these latest posts I am thinking that lateral flexion is used the most with horses that are expected to work without any bit contact. I could see how if a horse is expected to only neck rein, and to "duck" (my word) away from bit contact, that a horse could become used to flexion and not relate it to the signals in his everyday riding life. Someone who rides in this style of absolute no contact may have difficulty understanding "why not" teach flexion. In other words, the horse is being taught two things: duck away from pressure with the bit, and then move away from neck reining pressure. But the neck rein pressure is what the horse is taught to move away from stiffly, in degrees without bending the neck clear around.

Everyone needs that tension (for lack of a better word) through the neck in order to control the horse. If the horse neck reins, you have that "following the head" tension/correct bend and therefore can give up having some tension through the neck when you contact the bit. If the horse does not neck rein, the horse cannot throw the head away and lose the tension, or else you will not be able to control the horse. You simply cannot move the horse around just by the shoulders and hips. That's not practical. 

But I apparently many western riders don't think about their neck reining as being directional control? That is a question. My opinion is that it _feels _ like all the direction is coming from behind the neck, but as with dressage that feeling does not mean the front end is not involved. I'm not saying horses don't ride lightly off the seat and legs, but the head and neck are another 1/4 of the horse's length, and correct bend involves the whole horse. Although neck reining does not apply the same degree of pressure as other cues, the horse responds through his head and neck in the same way he would follow a direct rein. 

For a horse that is ridden on a loose or somewhat loose rein most of the time but also direct reins, it could be confusing to work on lateral flexion too much and cause rubber necking. For the everyday rider, it's not going to be helpful to have a horse that turns his head clear around but doesn't follow it. Why would you have a horse need several direct signals (turn your head, now move your shoulder, now move your hips) when you could just have him follow where you point his head and do the minor adjustments on timing and placement of his legs with your seat?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Zexious said:


> ^I'm guess the above is considered 'good riding' because a 'good rider' knows that a horse's movement and direction comes from their shoulders and hindquarters, and not their head or neck.
> I see so many novice riders steering with the mouth--but you can crane a head around all day and night and still not go in that direction, as we see above.


That is a given, and I don't think that applies to what CA is doing, as he certainly combines that exercise with teaching total body control,or couldn't ride a reining a pattern, That horse if just taught to rubber neck, would head for the out gate , running that circle, following his shoulder.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie - Why are you so convinced that the horse was in some way a failure in reining because I didn't think that it would be a prospect for Euro or western dressage?
As far as I can remember it was pretty successful though still young, I had zero interest in it as a reiner so never discussed what winnings it had, the price tag on it was quite hefty. They brought it out to show me because at liberty it had very nice paces - good long stride and it had excellent conformation, not downhill the way some of that breed are but for a horse to be able to collect it has to be able to have its 'energy' contained between the leg and the hand to produce the impulsion to get elevation and extension to command - that horse could not do that - when asked to work even in the lightest contact it had its nose on its chest - a typical symptom of too much work in hyperflexion.
Very often people confuse a 'light,soft' mouth with one that is actually a 'fearful' mouth, a horse that's learnt to avoid the bit by getting behind it


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

neck reining, those reins certainly control shoulders, or how else could one do a spin?
The horse is not ridden just off of the neck rein, but also seat and legs, and that is what creates the correct bend You can't ride a board
The difference being, on a loose rein, the horse is expected to keep that correct bend eventually, off of seat and legs alone. 
In the beginning, you certainly have to use contact and two hands, as a horse is not born knowing where to carry himself
Quite right that the average rider or even performance riders not involved where a horse is doing advanced maneuvers at speed, does not need that lateral flexing, and in fact, probably winds up doing more harm then good, by miis using it, as I see countless NH disciplines doing, regardless of which NH trainer they follow, flexing at the standstill, but never then doing riding exercises where all body parts are made supple
While I ride mainly western, I do ride HUS, and my horses have no problem going from one hand and a loose rein, to two reins and contact.
Horses don't need to be taught to rubber neck-they are quite good at doing it all on their own, if not taught shoulder control, and wish to go in the opposite direction then the rider wishes them to go.
When that horse is running a circle, he is in the correct bend,including his front end, or he would not track that circle correctly, esp on a loose rein
A spin is flat-we don't want a horse hopping around, thus those shoulders have to move, with the horse reaching with those front legs, crossing over correctly in front, so that turn is not the same as riding a corner

This takes different training then just riiding , or even dressage training. Collection for a working western horse can mean just working off his back end, versus being in a classical dressage collection frame
Do you not think that people who ride and train in their disciplines, knows what works best for them, and which is never intended to apply to the average rider, or even other disciplines, where certain maneuvers are never asked for?
As Al Dunning once humbly said, giving a clinic-'there are more then one way of training a horse, but this is just what works very well for me'
Larry Trocha on the stop, 'there is more then one way to teach a stop, but this is just what wroks really well for me.

Here is my final beef, There have been various discussions started, by people outside of the western disciple, posting a video on yearling lunge line, western pl, ect, and then bashing it. Those same people become offended if something is posted concerning training in their disciplines
I used to complain about halter horses, until one trainer (a reiner ,a ctually) told me that they had every right to just lead them and feed them, and it does not affect me at all, if I don't try to breed out to halter horses. Perhaps a similar advise applies to those CA training videos!
No one is telling anyone to use his techniques, esp if they are not trying to produce an upper level western performance horse. Use what works in your discipline, and we could all get alone a lot better!
Rolkur was spoken out against , officially by the veterinary community. When that happens, with similar damage proven, using that latteral flexion, then these will be expert advise and condemnation
Someone can look up Cheri's comments, when thsi subject was touched on before, but to tell the truth< i am just too tired to bother!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

in all these interesting discussions on how or if to use neck flexions, the very, very important difference in what truly constitutes a correct flexion is not being given as much importance as I think is needed.

the WAY you bend the neck around has EVERYTHING to do with how it affects the horse. different muscles are affected by the way CA does it , from the way BB (buck) does it, or the way classical dressage recommends doing it. they are not the same thing. it's not just that CA's way if a more extreme version of the other. no. they are different.


next I'd like to address Smilies' talk about controlling the shoulders. I hit "like" on her post with the poiint, since I absolutley agree. and, she also said a horse must be taught to follow his nose with his shoulder and body. 
this is, in fact, part of the reason why the severe , twisted 'flexions' don't serve to teach the horse to follow his nose with his shoulders as well. 
when the horse is cranked around, allowing the head to twiste downward, the weight of the horse shifts to the outside shoulder. doesn't this make it hard for the horse to follow his nose around, inward on the circle, if his body weight is thrust onto the other shoulder?

if the hrose is flexed with his poll above the wither, and no twist in the head, if there is any shift of weight, it will tend to be toward the outside hind, which helps free up in the inside fore, to step around into the inside circle, bringing the nose, the shoulders, and the body around to the inside of your turn.

the first sets the horse into a bind, the second helps set him up to step around.

now. having seen this (the above), read it, been taught it, I will admit that I DO see the reiners able to keep their shoulders up, so , in the spirit of being open minded, they seem to get performance out of the horse. what is curious is, would they get as good if they did NOT use hyper flexions?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

gottatrot said:


> After reading these latest posts I am thinking that lateral flexion is used the most with horses that are expected to work without any bit contact. I could see how if a horse is expected to only neck rein, and to "duck" (my word) away from bit contact, that a horse could become used to flexion and not relate it to the signals in his everyday riding life. Someone who rides in this style of absolute no contact may have difficulty understanding "why not" teach flexion. In other words, the horse is being taught two things: duck away from pressure with the bit, and then move away from neck reining pressure. But the neck rein pressure is what the horse is taught to move away from stiffly, in degrees without bending the neck clear around.
> 
> Everyone needs that tension (for lack of a better word) through the neck in order to control the horse. If the horse neck reins, you have that "following the head" tension/correct bend and therefore can give up having some tension through the neck when you contact the bit. If the horse does not neck rein, the horse cannot throw the head away and lose the tension, or else you will not be able to control the horse. You simply cannot move the horse around just by the shoulders and hips. That's not practical.
> 
> ...



this is an excellent point. the western working/performance horse usually IS neck reined, and usually turns with the head /neck more straight, swinging more like a gate swings. it's much faster for the hrose to do this, and if he's cornering cows, it works well. and, since western horses do more work in changing directions, and often abruptly, having them set up to be 'strung between the leg and the bit, with a mild bend on an arc from mouth to tail, powering forward so that they make a20 meter circle smoothly and consistently is less what they are trained to be good at.

dressage horses will spend more of their lives going forward, without any expectiation that they might have to stop, or turn on a dime, without much preperation. Western horses do a lot more of their turning by kind of 'bouncing' off the front feet to a whole body swing one direction or the other. it's fast, and agile. I think this is why the downhill frame of the qh is more valued.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm sure that the increasingly downhill appearance of some QH through selective breeding is because they work that way Tinyliny, whereas the dressage horse is all about upwards movement 


As to whether or not they would work better without all of this hyperflexion - I'm sure that the reason Rolkurr was used and then overused was because some riders thought they were unable to produce the best results without it and yet since its become banned and reviled what we are seeing is actually a massive improvement in the way the horses are performing with so much more elevation, power, agility and lightness - the horses of 15 years ago and more looked very 'flat' and reliant on leg action in comparison to the horses ridden by the top riders of today


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

@Smilie -- My response was to @bsms , not directed at you.
I didn't say anything about CA and don't plan to--I see no reason to involve myself in that can of worms.

bsms -- You would want to do that because a rider should be able to engage and disengage different parts of a horse's body. You should steer with your seat, not with your hands.
Maybe it's not an issue when you're only trail riding, but any sort of equitation class and you don't want your arms all over the place dragging your horse around by the mouth during a medal class. (as an example)

Is this something I've practiced? No. Do I see why it's done? Yes.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The question I asked was: "_I've asked, but have not heard, why someone would want a horse to move forward at speed with their head turned around, or how "nose to toes" is in someway helpful to the average rider on the average horse. A horse who follows his nose is pretty easy to steer. A horse who ignores his nose is much harder to steer - at least for the typical recreational rider...Thus my question, which remains unanswered so far, "Why is this considered good riding?_"








​ 
I find the answer "_You should steer with your seat, not with your hands. Maybe it's not an issue when you're only trail riding, but any sort of equitation class and you don't want your arms all over the place dragging your horse around by the mouth during a medal class_" unconvincing.

Why? Because riding along with the horse's nose against its chest has nothing to do with using one's seat, and certainly nothing to do with not "_dragging your horse around by the mouth_" - something none of the trail riders I know are guilty of doing, including me. Most of the riders I know, in fact ALL of the riders I know, spend far too much time with slack reins to be accused of dragging a horse around by the mouth. The western riding instructor I took lessons from was fond of saying you turn with "Seat, leg, reins (if needed)" and stopped with "seat, voice, reins (if needed)".

Heck, I believe in getting my horse to go past scary things on a slack rein, which would be pretty tough to do if all I knew was how to drag my horse around by the mouth. My rule of thumb is that if he doesn't go past on my leg, he hasn't 'bought in' that it is not scary. And I am more interested in the buy-in than I am in getting past something. Until he buys-in, he hasnt learned it is not scary.

My daughter dropped both her stirrups and reins while trail riding Trooper yesterday. Since I was behind and saw her, I told her to pick up either her reins or her stirrups, her choice. Being a teen, she picked up the reins at "the buckle" and held them between two fingers. And Trooper has never been flexed to the max.

So...where is the correlation? And in what sense does rollkur or nose-to-toes prove the ability to ride using seat or leg cues? If that is the goal, why not just drop the reins during a test?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

bsms said:


> Why would I deliberately train my horse to go fast in one direction while its head was in a different direction? Why would I WANT that? Am I the only person who wants his horse to look where he is going?



There are times where you do not want your horse to have his entire body follow directly behind the nose, sometimes at high speed.

For instance, two tracking is one method some use for helping a horse learn to pick up the correct lead at the lope/canter. The neck is not bent around per se, but neither is the body following in a direct line with the nose. 

Another maneuver where the horse does not follow his nose at higher speeds is the leg yield. The horse is moving both sideways and forward at the same time (different than a side pass). I use it a lot out on the trails at high speeds for weaving through things like tightly spaced hanging tree branches. The horse’s nose is momentarily out of line with the direction the body is moving (which is both sideways and forward) and is dictated by the legs and reins in concert with the seat.

Here is the difference between the two.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think bsms meant where the 4 legs are tracking in line with each other, but the head is off to the side. in the examples you've posted, the 4 legs are not tracking in one line, but diagonally to some degree.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Per his quote, he asked why you would want a head pointing one direction and the body going in another, the examples I gave do precisely that.

Do note however that in both of those moves the head is not torqued out of level.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My quote was in the context of a rider pulling the horse's nose to his toes, then going on straight. In fact, part of my quote was "_Am I the only person who wants his horse to look where he is going?_" - and a horse's FOV extends beyond 1 or 2 degrees. Its binocular vision is roughly +/- 30 degrees. It also has a narrow horizontal area in its eye where the cells are 30 times denser, and it is in that area where its vision approaches a humans. The rest, presumably, has a resolution 30 times worse (3000%), which suggests a horse is legally blind outside its area of good vision.

Almost no horse ever turns with his nose in a straight line with his back., nor do they curve their back to match a circle. But there is a difference between this










and these:



















I have this idea that good riding involves riding a horse in such a way that it resembles how the horse moves without a rider. That reflects my 'forward seat' indoctrination early on in my riding. And every horse I've met shows a preference for looking where it is going...at least, without a rider.

When there is an exception to that general rule, I think it is reasonable to ask why. And in the context of a horse sport, there are a huge number of things we do, from asking for more collection to asking a horse to run down a trail it would be content to walk down. I'm OK with that. If I wasn't, I wouldn't ride at all.

So it gets back to my question: What does riding like that, or doing extreme flexions, buy you? What is the gain? Why would it be valued above not doing it?

PS - when going between things, I set the goal and my horse is expected to figure out the means. I don't dictate the means. That reflects a western approach. And Bandit has proven he is entirely willing to move at a diagonal if it makes sense to him.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

...And when your horse heads straight for a 8" oak branch that he fits under and you can't you do what? Or in a better context for you since you have no trees, he walks to close to a cacti on a narrow trail that your legs just don't quite fit past the spines? You let him pick it then? I suppose that works at a walk, but I have a horse who asks to move out on the trails, he likes it that way. 

What did it do for me? It took a hard mouthed, dead to the leg, #1200 recent working stud, green as grass, with an attitude and allowed me to stop a buck and bolt before he even gets going. Hasn't tried those maneuvers since the beginning when he learned he got nowhere with it (it profited him not). No special bits, no special seats or grippy pants, just some time and training.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

When my horse does something beyond my comfort level, I take action. But as a rule: I set the goal, and expect him to choose the means. That, in turn, means training him by taking him thru increasingly challenging things as we progress. It is important to me - and NOT to everyone - to teach my horse judgment. And teaching him good judgment means accepting we will sometimes have to deal with poor judgment.

FWIW, when he is taking me too close to a cactus, what seems to work best is to keep my near leg firm against him, and press outwards in my other stirrup. Weighing the far stirrup tends to pull him over - but he is 800 lbs and has an A-frame back. He is also extremely slender (15.0 hands at 800 lbs).

I fully expect that someday we WILL encounter cactus. Hopefully I'll be able to ride it out.

"_What did it do for me? It took a hard mouthed, dead to the leg, #1200 recent working stud, green as grass, with an attitude and allowed me to stop a buck and bolt before he even gets going._"

Good. Glad it worked for you, just as I am glad that a curb bit worked for Mia.

But I'll also say I've ridden horses who are hard mouth and dead to the leg, and taught them without using any flexions. I haven't had to deal with any real bucks, so no comment. I have dealt with bolts, using a different approach - but it also resulted in Mia returning to a snaffle and never bolting again.

But if it worked for you, and worked well, that is what counts. I'll toss it in my bag of possible future tricks. And I thank you for giving a reasonable answer. It is entirely possible that Bandit & I will grow old together and he'll be my last horse...but it never hurts to have some extra tricks up one's sleeves.

BTW - There was a Japanese Instructor Pilot teaching flying in F-4s in Florida years ago...probably late 70s. He was very popular and respected. He was famous for his saying, "You no have will to cheat, you no have will to win!" His point was that folks facing combat needed to do whatever worked. If special bits and special seats are cheating, but they work for me...well, "You no have will to cheat, you no have will to win!" I'll 'cheat' in a heartbeat if it profits my horse & I.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

bsms said:


> *It is entirely possible that Bandit & I will grow old together and he'll be my last horse*...but it never hurts to have some extra tricks up one's sleeves.


BSMS, I hope that is the case and yes, a bag of tricks is good, even if you think at first glance they are not useful or aren't needed. This particular bag of tricks (ORS) though, does take some preparation. I tried it once on Ghost in a panic situation (never worked on him lateral flexing)... rode fine otherwise, but in that situation, stiff as a board he wasn't familiar with that cue. Instead we had an extensive "discussion". So I don't know which method is less kind, less gentle.....but I found I prefer the former rather than the latter.

What you are describing to go around the cactus sounds like a sort-of leg yield and like I said, I use it at high speeds and is a great way to steer in tight quarters when you may not have space/time to get the horse to follow his head.

In respect to fighting, isn't it best to not allow things to escalate into a need to battle in the first place then you don't have to cheat?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Won't try to address politics, but when it comes to riding...if I can prevent a fight, that beats cheating after it starts!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I can just imagine the old Japanese fellow saying, "you no have will to cheat, you no have will to win". that is probably his translation of a Japanese proverb, of which there are zillions!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I have watched my instructor work with horses that are very stiff necked, and resistant to the rein/bit. it can become a bit ugly, because the horse has to be shown that he does not have to resist the bit, the contact can be fair, that he does not need to brace up his back and hollow out in preperation for the worst.

she talks alot about staying in there with the horse, meeting their resistance, holding for a bit to give the hrose time to think about it, and then adding an ounce more, and waiting, waiting. the horse only knows one way; to lean harder. but, if that never gets him a release, he will eventually seek another way. she will sometimes help him by looking for places where she thinks he might be searching for a way out, and giving a tiny release. 

she is trying to help him find a different relationship with the rein, and with his body. after she rides a horse through this process, the horse will look so different, and you can tell it feels different too. 

but, if you only saw one part of that process, you might see what looks a bit ugly, or , you'd only see a horse moving along pretty nicely, depending on which part you happened to see.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

This is pretty much the way we started it with Caspian, Oliver and now Cowboy (Ghost is retired)...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Dressage involves a lot of lateral work so flexion is important - but you don't want a horse that's going to lean towards being rubber necked because the degree of flexion you want is quite precise and too much bend is going to lose you points - so too much use of hyperflexion in the sense of this discussion is going to have the same negative as having a horse that's always behind the vertical because its done too much rolkurr
You ask the horse to flex slightly more than you'll ask him to do in the movement - you don't need his head around by your feet for any dressage movement


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

But that is an assumption that the horse will rubber neck. I've never had more bend then I asked for or "rubber necking". You can still ask for degrees of bend through release and guiding with the legs and seat and how I ask for the head to come completely around like that requires me to put my hand into a zone that is "out of the box" and is unusual to cuing a regular turn. The horse learns the difference.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ I put a couple of his videos on flexing in my first post on this thread. I like the demo where he ties a single horse hair and pulls on it. If the winds hold off today, I'm going to do that style of flexions with Bandit today. The trainer who worked with Trooper and Lilly and Mia liked a more vertical flex, as in "_I don't want him to drop his outside ear_" in this video. Dropping the outside ear is a good description of what I was told to avoid. Also: "_I'm waiting for his attention to come back towards me_" - another phrase I like in terms of what I will look for, if I get the chance to do them with Bandit this morning...off topic, but we've had a week of afternoon winds with gusts in the 40-50 mph range! I'm SOOOO tired of the wind!

I also love his patience at the 7:30 mark. Not pulling MORE, but not giving in either.

This is Bandit's former owner, doing flexions on Mia. I assume this is the sort Bandit was taught, and it really isn't what I am after:








​ 
See the amount of pull, and the "dropping of the outside ear"? That is a different approach, and I'll admit that Bandit arrived here really liking people...but it is not the approach I'm comfortable with...and Bandit is now my horse. So just as Mia will have to deal with her new life, Bandit may need some training to help him understand how I approach things.

Looking back, I should have done some of this when I first got him, particularly when I realized he had been taught "Bit = STOP!".

PS - In most horse training, feel and reading the horse are critical. Might this be one of those areas where a horseman with good feel and sensitivity can use it to very good effect, but where a newbie can mess a horse up? I can easily see how a horse flexed poorly would rubber neck, and wonder if Bandit's minor tendency toward rubber necking came from HOW he was taught flexing.

Of course, looking at his sire (the white one next to Mia), it could also just be how Bandit is built:








​ 
And yes, when I see pictures of Mia...I miss her! But I also suspect the open terrain she is now in is better for her than where I live.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'll add I DID do the sort of flexing Warwick Schiller demonstrates with Mia. I don't think I ever asked for more than about 30 degrees of bend, although she soon did more on her own initiative. I never, however, asked her to bring her nose to my toes. That is also the approach I used in teaching a horse how to respond to a curb bit before riding them in one.

I guess I view flexing a horse with the rein held in two fingers differently than how I view what I've seen in the CA videos.

I'll also add that the flexing Bandit learned did NOT help him move better, be calmer, more responsive or softer. But I don't know how much of that was his intentional training, and how much came from using the bit almost totally for brakes.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

BSMS, I have never brought my horse's nose to my boot (though I tend to think of it as such) because that would mean the head is tilted, too low for the type of riding we do and out of balance. I have however brought his nose around to below my knee, just to check the emergency brakes and stretch.

PS. Dude in the picture with Mia, has his reins too long (look where his elbow is), it makes you loose feel for the give when you get it so you can't provide proper, well timed release to teach the horse to give the head instead, you end up pulling it. In an emergency stop, it would also be a weak position.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Okay, someone else's laterAL flexion, training a reining horse

~ ~ Reining Training Tips ~ ~: Basic Exercise: Lateral Flexion
That is the context of the CA video-reining, and thus methods, degree of this flexion used in reining,needs to be compared. If CA is over doing it, it will soon show up in the show pen.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Smilie, The technique she was using in the video is often called doubling in bridle horse training (Brannaman uses it as an exercise in his clinics for a build up to working cows). It used to be a rougher looking technique done at higher speeds, but mostly now it is done at a walk as an exercise to build suppleness and responsiveness in turns.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Now here is the way I was taught, which is back to not doing it over and over again , at a standstill, but to use lateral flexion along with movement. This is from **** Pieper, a reining trainer more well known a little back in time

Train Your Reining Horse to Spin


And, here is the use of lateral flexion, trail riding, and why having a horse that will flex, transfers to also responding to the one rein stop, or to diffuse a buck or bolt.
Use it or not, just be open to horse training ideas, and use what works for you, and discard the rest-that is the reason anyone serious in any discipline, takes clinics from many different trainers, and that is the only way you grow, as a horse person. Being rigid, basing ideas on a few horses, just reading does not cut it.
I have changed many ways of doing things with horses, over the years. Heck, first clinic I took on flying lead changes, was with Pat whize. It was basically a 'cowboy' change , or what horses do in the field, in that you changed leads out of speed and direction change. Basically, he had you come across center, put weight in the old lead stirrup, then change direction, just as you came near the opposite wall. Well, the horse either changed or fell down!
I have ridden many horses out on trails, that never had the one rein stop on them, but they were quite broke first, and I was also young! As I became more aware of the one rein stop, and other exercises, to get ahorse's mind back on me, it helped me with just another tool

Flex for Control | The Trail Rider


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Here is a decent explanation as to what is hoped to be achieved by working "lateral flexation" and doubling from the bridle horse perspective. (sorry, it is another Brannaman clinic clip, but I like that he doesn't just tell you how, but why which seems to be the question)


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Never have understood the fascination with the "One Rein Stop". If you can train a ONE rein stop, you can train a TWO rein stop. Not saying a ORS is bad or evil, but millions of horses have learned to do the TRS and perform it fine. As a rational for doing deep flexing of a horse, I find the ORS unconvincing. 

I also long ago got tired of being told it was a critical thing for a trail horse to learn, since so many good trail horses do fine using the TRS. Folks are welcome to teach a ORS, and use it. I just got tired of having it preached to me. If I could teach Mia the "Two Rein Stop", then just about anyone can teach it - if they wish. 

Or they can teach the horse a ORS. _As far as I'm concerned, they can teach a horse a "Tug on the mane" stop if they wish, and if it works for them_. But a One Rein Stop will remain, for me, something to toss in your bag of tricks in case you ever need it...I've just seen far to much 'rigid thinking' where it is involved!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Some horses learn to run through the bit when panicked, some will even learn to grab it in their teeth so you can pull all you want and they won't stop. Hopefully they never learn that, but that first time you realize they have, it would be nice to have a plan B. ORS trained and executed properly, makes it so that they can't move out of the area, really good when you are riding in tight quarters (or on the side of a cliff) with others. 

The time that ghost went squirrely on me, my then 10 year old was ahead of me on a green horse and I had several riders behind there was thick woods with low branches to either side. If he had bolted, someone was probably coming off. He is an old ranch horse, so we were able to "work it out", but it caused far more of a kerfuffle than if I had been able to simply shut it down within my space. This is a horse I have ridden tack-less before in an arena and at pasture and stops to whoa, he really knows his cues, but had never been taught a ORS. 

It is certainly not the only way, but it is good to have when you need it.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There's no comparison with the sort of flexion work Buck is doing in that video, the sort of flexion training you do to teach a horse to 1 rein stop, the sort of flexion work used in physio exercise or to encourage suppleness in a horse or to respond quickly and correctly to direct rein pressure and the sort of extreme forced flexion work that CA is doing


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

^^^ I agree. But since it seems to have been going the way of painting with a broad brush as "bad", "useless" I wanted to show how flexation can be trained properly and with a purpose for more than just reining horses.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I have given example after example of how I would use flexion like this, and yet since my last post a few pages ago, there is still things said like "No one has shown me how it could be used"

So I am basically at the end of my rope and patience, I hope everyone enjoys their trail rides. Anything else brought up in this thread can be directed to my other replies for a response.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Smilie, The technique she was using in the video is often called doubling in bridle horse training (Brannaman uses it as an exercise in his clinics for a build up to working cows). It used to be a rougher looking technique done at higher speeds, but mostly now it is done at a walk as an exercise to build suppleness and responsiveness in turns.



The original term of doubling, was used in training a bosal horse, to show him that he could be controlled by that bosal.
I posted a link by Ed Corrnell on that subject before.
Basically a horse was turned around in his tracks, at a lope, taking up slack suddenly on one rein
As in all things, that term began to be used more broadly, but that is what it meant originally

Here is that letter
, again, by Ed Cornell, concerning 'doubling.
It is not aflexing exercise, but one to use to convince the horse he can be controlled , suing a bosal, in the days when colts were ridden out and worked in bosals

http://www.hackamore-reinsman.com/

Seems that letter is gone from the site, so have to see if it still can be found


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I found this info, from that letter, I posted once, on another forum:

This old Vaquero training method is where the term came from, and since then it is often used to refer to an actual training technique, where the horse is set up, cued, ect., but that was not the original case.


From that letter:

Remember, doubling is a hard pull to the side with the rein gripped half way down to the heel knot of the hackamore. Remember this: always pull when the horse's front feet are leaving the ground, on the way up. Doing this enables the horse to get his hind feet up under him. If the pull comes at the top of the movement he will hit the ground with all four feet. If the pull comes on the way down in the movement he will hit on his front feet. At the start it is always better to double the horse while he is galloping against an obstacle. It is always better to not let the horse run too fast before doubling. If he tries it, pull him before he gets going fast.


he only place in the Western Hemisphere that the reined horse was ever made was in California. In years gone by the Southwest never made the reined horse but they made some very good self working horses on cattle. They never doubled their horses and the same for the North as the Grazer bit went up there with the early day trail herds with the Tejanos.

In the last several years I have been corresponding with a famous European horseman who is also a historian and he tells me that the only place in Europe where they break horses, that doubles the horse is in Andalucia, Spain. So that is where the Californian got the doubling through the Conquistadores in Mexico, and then up to California with the Mission Padres and the Mexican occupation of California in the 1800's. Very interesting to look back on.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Well that explains why my Califonio trainer taught it the way he did, initially I was confused when I heard the term used later in several places to refer to the exercise used in the video because it was entirely different. So when I talk to him, I call that exercise "serpentines" and leave the term "doubling" to what he thinks of it as.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Now here is the way I was taught, which is back to not doing it over and over again , at a standstill, but to use lateral flexion along with movement. This is from **** Pieper, a reining trainer more well known a little back in time
> 
> Train Your Reining Horse to Spin
> 
> ...


I read the first article. it is clear and well written and jives completely with what little I know about flexing and training for a soft turn. if this is what CA were really doing, I'd have no beef at all. but it doesn't look like he's doing this at all, yet he still creates what reiners want. so, . . . I guess I'm a bit baffled. if he were following the writer's directions, his flexions would look different. 

to me, it looks like he's doing exactly what she says not to do; PULL the hrose around.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> Never have understood the fascination with the "One Rein Stop". If you can train a ONE rein stop, you can train a TWO rein stop. Not saying a ORS is bad or evil, but millions of horses have learned to do the TRS and perform it fine. As a rational for doing deep flexing of a horse, I find the ORS unconvincing.
> 
> I also long ago got tired of being told it was a critical thing for a trail horse to learn, since so many good trail horses do fine using the TRS. Folks are welcome to teach a ORS, and use it. I just got tired of having it preached to me. If I could teach Mia the "Two Rein Stop", then just about anyone can teach it - if they wish.
> 
> Or they can teach the horse a ORS. _As far as I'm concerned, they can teach a horse a "Tug on the mane" stop if they wish, and if it works for them_. But a One Rein Stop will remain, for me, something to toss in your bag of tricks in case you ever need it...I've just seen far to much 'rigid thinking' where it is involved!


I rode for years, just getting a good whoa, using two reins, but the fact remains, ahorse can more easily run through that bit, that way, and why the one rein stop is an emergency stop, not to replace the engaged correct hind end stop, but a method of control,t hat goes beyond relying on a'bigger bit', which might work, short term on some horses
There are two main methods of stopping a bolting horse, the one rein stop, where that give has to be taught, way before you ever use it, and the pully rein, taught in the carvery 
I just happened to have used the one rein stop effectively this morning, along with other conditioned body control.
I was just riidng Carmen down our gravel road, checking how the shoes she had put on yesterday were working, In afield next to that road, was a young moose, that came curiously trotting towards us.
I would very much doubt you would have stopped your horse, BSMS, simply by using a two rein stop
Do you think, people like Cheri, and others, that have ridden many many horses out, including spoiled problem horses, are so inept on teaching a correct stop, that they advocate having the one rein stop, on a horse, just in case?

Come on BSMS, these people have ridden many more trail miles then you probably will ever ride, on various horses, so I think it is rather blind to dismiss their advise!
Why is it, people relatively new to horses, are often the ones that think they know it all, and less willing to learn then some people that have spent a lifetime training horses????


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

the writer in the second article smilie posted is less clear, IMO. he says, "bring your horse's head to his shoulder" huh? that sounds like a very severe curling of the neck; a 'breaking' of the curve. THAT is what ends up creating a rubber necked hrose.

when you flex the horse as I was taught, you will feel him literally rock back onto his outside rear leg. if you then give a little 'ask' with your inside leg, he will disengage his hindquarters. if his head is still lifted (from the base of the neck, NOT a swan type of lift), then he will have his forequarters less weighted, and he can then step his inside front over into the circle, and voila! you have a turn.

if you crank the head around so severely , you end up 'binding up ' the hrose. he will dump weight onto the front. if he keeps walking forward, then it can work, and if you use a spur on his outside shoulder, he can push off that shoulder and turn away from that heavy weighted outside shoulder. so, I guess that can work. is that how reiners spin? pushing off the outside shoulder?

really, I know you think I am just arguing, but i've felt how a horse that has his head pulled around just like you see CA in the Titan video feels. you can literally feel it lean forward and off to the outside.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Ironic isn’t it. Western riders think that riding with “contact” on the vertical looks like pulling the head into frame and English riders see lateral flex as the head being pulled around. 

I would guess, and it is just a guess, that through repetition, he is not pulling at all, it has become a signal response rather than a pressure response.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

When a horse is truly frightened, BSMS, even if that horse has been taught to stop without a dam thing on his head, you need to use some form of body control, because you are not going to out pull ahorse. That does not mean you don't teach a correct hind end engaged stop, and us that as the main way to stop ahorse, but you put the one rein stop on ahorse, in case you ever get in a position where any in grained response to a correct whoa goes out the window
Ever ride agreen horse into a nest of ground hornets by accident? Think a two rein stop alone is going to keep you from being bucked off?
i doubt it. When that happened to Smilie, on her first trail ride, she wanted to explode bucking, or to bolt, and only because that one rein stop, allowed me to check her head around long enough, to step off, did I prevent being piled very hard.
\Until you get into some of these situations,versus just looking at a garbage can, or a rock, keep your mind a bit more open. Ever have a bighorn sheep, suddenly appear on a ledge above your horse?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Ever have a bighorn sheep, suddenly appear on a ledge above your horse?


Nope, only the ever more dangerous and terrifying Boy Scout troop! :lol:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

SorrelHorse said:


> I have given example after example of how I would use flexion like this, and yet since my last post a few pages ago, there is still things said like "No one has shown me how it could be used"
> 
> So I am basically at the end of my rope and patience, I hope everyone enjoys their trail rides. Anything else brought up in this thread can be directed to my other replies for a response.



hey sorrelhorse, the topic expanded in this thread, to just flexing , period, so the one rein stop came up also, not to be confused with the lateral flexing done in reining training, which you explained very well, and where we both explained how body control, alone with that flexing, in no way promotes rubber necking. Don't give up!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

you are probalby right, cats and dogs.

even if titan is swinging his head right to left as an automatic response to the rein, how is that connecting the rein to the feet? 

my trainer always says everything you do with the rein should be toward making it connect to the feet, especially the back feet. if the neck is swinging around like that, I don't see how you can ask for anything from the feet, since if you add a bit more contact, the neck will only swing further. can't 'reach' throught the bit to the feet becuse neck just keeps escaping you.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I’m not on board with the Anderson method, though it has nothing to do with thinking he is pulling the horse’s head around. I don't know because I can't feel what is happening with that horse under me, but I just don’t see how that particular position with the horse head torqued crooked at the poll, wouldn’t put the horse off balance somewhere. It just looks off? And sight is the only sense I have on line to make a judgement.

Like with English riding and seeing the grief they get for “pulling” their horse’s head into frame, I thought at least I’d give CA the benefit of the doubt like I would an English rider. Often, unless it is your hands on the reins and the horse is underneath you, it is so hard to make a fair judgement.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't think English riders see lateral flexion as forcing the horses head around - I think they would see what CA is doing as 'forcing the horse's head around' because his version of lateral flexion is taking the exercise to a whole new level that isn't of any real use no matter how his fans try to justify it
In show jumping horses and ponies have to be able to negotiate tight turns at speed in rounds that are 'against the clock' and then pick up and jump a big fence so 'flexion' is important in that discipline. At no time when they're making a sharp turn to a fence do the horses have their noses turned around towards the riders legs so while it (extreme flexion) might have its uses in reining it doesn't have any in English/Euro riding competition
These are ponies




And these are horses


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Jumping is a very different movement asked from the horse compared to this:






Even though reining is not the same as cutting, they kind of come from the same cloth in the need for quick mobility. I dunno Jaydee, I don't do reining or cutting to any large extent so can't tell you.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The main difference I see between the quarter horse in that video and the show jumper I think has already been mentioned - the English horse turns more of its hind end with the front end elevated to spring forwards and upwards where the QH is lowering its front end
I'm not seeing any more bend in that horses neck when it works the cattle than I'm seeing in an English competition horse


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I stated already the use for that sort of flexion on a cowhorse. A cowhorse HAS to remain flat. Any excessive movement upward, like what they jumpers do, slows down the horse - And not to mention, to me, it's just not pretty to look at. A cowhorse that hops is a cow horse that looses a cow. A cowhorse that is flat and reaches with the front (And yes, some of that comes from a very flexible neck) and drives from the hocks, will turn faster.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> I rode for years, just getting a good whoa, using two reins, but the fact remains, ahorse can more easily run through that bit, that way...
> 
> ...I would very much doubt you would have stopped your horse, BSMS, simply by using a two rein stop...
> 
> ...


And why is it some people think a lot of time in the saddle is a substitute for trying things and learning? You have never met Mia or me. You didn't even participate on this forum in any discussion of Mia that I can remember. You really ought not say what I could or could not do on a horse I rode for 7 years and that you never met. I stopped Mia using both reins when she filled her butt with cactus. We stopped using two reins and a snaffle when she encountered a rattlesnake, and when we had a coyote pop out just in front of us.

Without deep flexing or the ORS, I've had a lot of success teaching my horse to go past scary things on slack reins. I've also taught a horse to stop bolting without needing the ORS and deep flexing to do it. 

If you like a "One Rein Stop", use it! But do NOT act as if it is an essential part of riding for everyone who gets on a horse. Too many have lived their lives just fine without it, and their experience (and mine) is as valid as yours.

The US Cavalry didn't teach the One Rein Stop, and they had millions of horses! The British Cavalry didn't teach it either! Neither does George Morris, that I can tell. Nor have many great riders with enormous experience. Add in a few million English riders, a few million western riders who also do not use the ORS...all that experience is valid. Trooper did plenty of miles as a ranch horse without it. His sire was used for working some mighty rough cattle, and he wasn't taught using deep flexing or the ORS. I don't think Cowboy knows a ORS, and he is not built for flexing, but he has been a ranch horse too.

If extreme flexing has worked for you, go ahead and use it. I'd rather not. If I could stop Mia when her butt was filled with cactus without ever having deep flexed her, or taught her the magical ORS...then there are more options out there. The millions of good horses who have never been pulled nose to toes indicate it IS possible.

When you tell others they could not do what they have done, learning is over. I haven't told anyone who is happy doing deep flexing and the ORS to not use those techniques, but I can and will maintain that others can be successful without them. Why? Because millions have done so, for thousands of years, all around the world. What HAS been done, CAN be done.

And frankly, if I can do something, and have done it with Mia, then it is not only possible, but relatively easy.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> The main difference I see between the quarter horse in that video and the show jumper I think has already been mentioned - the English horse turns more of its hind end with the front end elevated to spring forwards and upwards where the QH is lowering its front end
> I'm not seeing any more bend in that horses neck when it works the cattle than I'm seeing in an English competition horse



Jaydee, they are ridden different, and it is not just the turn. Again, way different, staying flat, riding one handed an on a loose rein, versus guiding that horse with rein contact, using two hands
Accept that there is a difference, that perhaps requires different training methods. 
Thanks, Reining, for that sensible statement of judging when you have that horse beneath you, and when you ride in that discipline, versus trying to relate everything back to English standards.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't think that the question about the use of flexion was restricted to only western riding?


I would be interested, however, to see some videos of western horses ridden in whatever disciplines require the amount of neck bend that CA is putting on that horse
The ranch horse video didn't show any and neither does this video of a selection of western horses 'spinning'. their body line is much the same as that seen in an English horse performing a turn on the forehand - in fact its really just a speeded up version of that movement




Even these barrel racers aren't showing much bend in the neck


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS, you used what worked on Mia,for where you rode, and that is great!
Note, I said that carvery taught the pully rein, to control a horse that bolted, and since then, there has been alot more empathize on body control, versus just hoping you can outpull the horse, be it using a pully rein or a big bit. Why do you think the double was taught to bosal horses? . The one rein stop, able to disengage the hips,take the head away, gives you much more control on a horse, versus just hoping they won;t run through that bit, when push comes to shove
I am also not telling you to use that flexing, that CA is using for his reining training program, nor to flex ahorse over and over again, if you are just doing everyday riding-I certainly don't do it!
You are confusing his reining training flexing, with simply teaching a horse a one rein stop
I simply have a horse accept to have his head taken away, as part of training, then don't ever bother using it-but it is there, should I need it, and that is the point.
I work on a correct backend stop, and that is what I regularly work on, as you need it, for any riding discipline, and the one rein stop, or taking the head away, whatever you wish to call it, remains an emergency stop
Did I always have it on my horses? NOpe! But I can think back to a few cases where is sure as hell would have come in useful!
Why do you think even people like Larry Trocha or even CA teach it, when their focus is on that correct hindend stop? Think they can't teach a stop?
For a horse to bolt, it is facilitated if his hips are engaged, and he can just throw his head up The one rein stop, or simply taking the head away, makes either bolting or bucking very difficult, as those hips are not engaged
Perhaps, when you have an object actually coming towards you, and not just having the horse look at something, the practicality of body control, versus just concentrating on the mouth, might become apparent to you
It is another tool, nad you use it according to the situation. There are times a simple whoa works, or a counter flex, and keeping foreward, or an angle approach, and there are times you have to shut a horse down , now. 
Sorry, using the pully rein, hoping I'm strong enough, to stop a bolting horse, is not as appealing as diffusing that bolt to start with, by being able to take that head away


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Seems this forum already had a discussion on the pully rein, versus the one rein stop, used as an emergency measure.
The carvery used the pully rein, which can be more damaging on a horse, but they did have method of controlling a bolting horse, beyond hoping that whoa and bit worked all the time!

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/one-rein-stop-vs-pulley-rein-90612/
Old outfitters used a running W to teach complete obedience to 'whoa', and the horses whose legs weren't broken, sure stopped, no matter what!
Go back in military history, which you are so fond of, and you will see bits used that would stop an elephant, with prongs that poked into the jaws
Many of those horses were also ridden miles and miles every day, and often were sore backed,,yet never bucked either You get any horse to this point, and they become very' obedient 'Our horses are not worked to that extent today, thus body control helps where simple miles and miles of wet saddle blankets, along with the pully rein, worked instead\\
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/one-rein-stop-vs-pulley-rein-90612/


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I agree with Tinyliny that I don't want the horse to learn to disconnect the head from the body. Instead, I want the head, neck and legs to be connected. 

I went to a Bob Avila clinic and he stood his horse and pulled the head back and forth to his knees until the horse seemed dizzy. It did not seem to have any correlation to what I wanted horses to do. The videos posted recently on this thread showing the horses following the bend seem much more useful to the average rider. 

Whatever method you teach a horse to stop, the horse can always override that method. A one rein stop does not prevent a horse from running off if he wishes, with the wrong mindset. I've ridden a horse stung by bees and a simple stop pulled him up because he was of the mentality where he could panic and still listen to a rider. Same with spooky birds or wildlife. FWIW, my mare sees elk, coyotes and squirrels without blinking. But a plastic chair hidden in the sand sent her bolting. Dead sea lions on the beach covered in vultures are nothing, but a baby stroller is obviously sent from hell. 
I've ridden a horse that was stung by a bee and decided to do somersaults. I've seen a horse that the rider attempted to stop doing the one rein stop and the horse stopped, then panicked and went in all directions, bucking and would have gone over any cliff nearby. 

The first method I taught my horse was the one rein stop. You know how dressage horses can move in all directions laterally, crossing their legs and bending through the body? With the wrong horse, you can't actually "take" their head or hind quarters away from them. When they panic, they will cross their legs and run away laterally even while bent in half or nose to knees. I've been on horses that could run the other way, into the curve of the banana shape. As long as they have the athletic power and lift combined with the mental energy, horses can go any which way and it doesn't matter how much they've learned to move their shoulder away from the leg or what type of body control you have. Panic is an overriding force.
I've learned that the better a horse learns how to control his body, the more he can be naughty in all directions. 




My friend's horse is very athletic and taught herself to capriole as an evasion so she could bolt. It was tricky teaching her not to do it. The thing is, when a horse gathers in a second and then is flying through the air, there are no legs on the ground to control and the bit is meaningless. If the horse gathers the hind legs under while in the air, when you hit the ground you will take off at a gallop.

So the most important thing is that you control the mind, and with a severe panic the mind usually calms down best with movement. That's why I don't bother teaching the one rein stop, I just want the horse to be able to turn extremely well and be connected through the body so I can control the direction of travel and therefore the speed at least eventually. 

I've found that with well trained horses english or western, they all should have enough body control that you can gallop them toward a fence and turn around a tree just before you get there. I haven't found western horses to have any better or faster body control, even reiners. You can stop a good english horse on a literal dime, they just lift up and collect their legs before they get there. The western horse does it lower down. All can do flying changes on the spot, it just depends on whether the horse is sitting low and flat or high and bouncy. Horses can perform very athletic maneuvers in a variety of ways depending on their build and training.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Look, everyone can use what works for them, degree of flexion, no flexion, does not matter, but to consider that taking the head away, disconnects the mind, is just plain ridiculous!
You put body control on a horse SO YOU CAN GET THEIR MIND back on you. There are times the mind calms down with movement, and you can use it, there are also times that there is no room for movement, and then body control will hopefully help you thought it
There are times you can gallop circles, bringing that circle down, and there are times that the geography simply will not allow it!
Have you ever been on trails, Gottatrot, , not in an a arena, where the horse decides to bolt, and no room to let the horse just move? Doubt it, from that blanket statement!
When a horse truly bolts, he runs blind. He will bolt across a highway, or even over a cliff.There are times you have to shut him down_Now!
I see very few, if any dressage horses being ridden in the mountings, so to use one in an arena, is hardly a endorsement for not being able to take the head away.
I'm pretty sure, people like Larry trocha have way more experience riding horses that attempt to bolt, so to say the one rein stop has no application, is a dis service to many people out there, Don't use it , if you feel it is not for you, and it is also not the only answer, just another tool, where a smart horseman, makes a judgement call.
It would be stupid, to try the one rein stop, on a horse never taught to give his head and neck laterally, ans esp at a gallop!
Perhaps read Cheri's pinned post on the one rein stop
For instance, just to get your take on things, what would you have done, in the case where Smilie got into a nest of ground hornets-just let her bolt through those woods, or, maybe have that ability to take the head away, along with an ingrained response to ;'whoa;, so that you had enough time to step off, even as that horse was being stung?Remember, this mis thick woods, with all kinds on logs, branches, ect.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

What does athletic ability, able to gallop around a tree, have to do with a horse in a true bolt mindset? Not a darn thing! You don't stop a bolting horse, using the training on him, because when he bolts, that training is out the window. That is why the pully rein was used, so the horse could not grab the bit.
This topic is getting so jumbled, that I am becoming confused!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS, maybe just watch this video, and then discuss being able to take the ehad away. Surely, does not hurt to really watch the entire video


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Look, everyone can use what works for them, degree of flexion, no flexion, does not matter, but to *consider that taking the head away, disconnects the mind, is just plain ridiculous!*
> You put body control on a horse SO YOU CAN GET THEIR MIND back on you. There are times the mind calms down with movement, and you can use it, there are also times that there is no room for movement, and then body control will hopefully help you thought it
> There are times you can gallop circles, bringing that circle down, and there are times that the geography simply will not allow it!
> Have you ever been on trails, Gottatrot, , not in an a arena, where the horse decides to bolt, and no room to let the horse just move? Doubt it, from that blanket statement!
> ...



I hope you don't think that that was what I was saying. what I was saying is that if , by constant repititions, where all you are asking is the the horse swing his head around, side to side, when it comes to ORS time, that's all you will have; a bendy neck. 

if , however, picking up and asking for a reasonable amount ofbend is saying to your horse "get ready in your whole body, think back into your hind " , then the disengagement of the emergency ORS will work.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Anyway, those tow videos show more what I do, versus the one rein stop, and call it just body control, or the ability to take away the head


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Gottotrot, that horse in the video is plain show sour, and shows a rider still trying to complete a pattern, versus schooling that horse,shuting it down, not worrying about placing.
Sorry, that video does not cut it for me, far as trying to prove anything relevant to this post.! You can see reiners, being just as 'athletic', getting on the muscle as you walk to center, before even beginning the pattern, throwing in extra moves, just because they can, if they are never corrected in the showpen, so that they think different rules apply in that pen, then outside of it.
I really don't know what point you were trying to make, showing a spoiled horse, except that they are 'too athletic' to learn body control??????


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

yeah, the "london horse freaks out " video shows a hrose that won't go forward. a one rein stop approach is not what is needed. although, bending might help. but, the issue is not stopping him, but getting him to cut loose and go forward.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Horses can learn to stop straight ahead. Mia learned to do it. First in a curb, then in a snaffle, although she always acted happier in a curb. Bandit can do it.

From my experience, which is limited but still valid - what has been seen and done HAS been seen and done - some horses stay calmer when stopped straight ahead. Spinning, as I said, just spun Mia up. She would eventually calm down, but the emotional high of that spinning around taught her the wrong thing.

James Fillis noted the same thing, and it was when I read it in his book (written in 1890) that I recognized the problem Mia was having:

"_...My only advice about the management of nervous horses is to give them confidence by "making much of them." If we see in front of us an object which we know our horse will be afraid of, we should not force him to go up to it. Better let him at first go away from it, and then gently induce him to approach it, without bullying him too much. Work him in this way for several days, as long as may be necessary. Never bring him so close up to the object in question that he will escape or spin round ; because in this case we will be obliged to punish him ; not for his fear, but on account of his spinning round, which we should not tolerate at any time. *In punishing him, we will confuse in his mind the fear of punishment and the fear caused by the object.* In a word, with nervous horses we should use much gentleness, great patience, and no violence_." (page 186)

Of course, he is long dead and not a recognized clinician, and he didn't ride western, so why read his book? But some horses look at heavy flexing and getting spurred in the gut as 'punishment' - who would have thought it? - and respond with greater fear. Stopping straight ahead, either via a pulley rein, a curb bit, or calming and THEN stopping will profit the rider.

Intelligent horses like using their minds, and dislike being treated like a machine.

Some horses must respond well to CA's teachings because a lot of people report having horses who behave better when they follow his advice. And I'm happy for them when it does. But it certainly is not the only good way to work a horse, and there is nothing 'natural' about rollkur - not when done in dressage and not when done by western trainers. The difference seems to be that a great many dressage riders reject rollkur, while the western show world now seems to be defending it - something I find bizarre! Instead of wanting sensible cow ponies, it wants submissive ones! Oh well. I'll go on trying to teach my horse trust and confidence, and let others worry about body control...


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> trottin, that horse in the video is plain show sour, and shows a rider still trying to complete a pattern, versus schooling that horse,shuting it down, not worrying about placing.


My point was that the horse in question was competing in the Olympics, so therefore has tons of body control trained in. Any Grand Prix level horse obviously knows how to move off the tiniest changes in seat, and how to respond with every part of the body individually. Yet if the mind is out of control, the horse does not respond to the cues despite world class training, drilling, and all the built in buttons one could wish for. 

So while I think it's fine for people to train the one rein stop, what I've found is that people believe it will "shut down" the horse as described, and keep every horse safe should they want to bolt off. Which in some cases it will, but in other horses it can cause a more unsafe situation due to panic, and if people use it because THEY panic, and this causes the horse to explode, it can make the situation far worse. So I say "use it wisely." 

And for myself, personally, having been on horses that bolted both through heavily wooded areas, on narrow trails with steep sides, and also toward a solid obstacle that couldn't be jumped (or one that could, but had slippery footing), and down steep hills (it's a toss up which is worse, heading toward a solid obstacle or down a very steep hill), I find the one rein stop not useful for these situations. On narrow trails and steep cliffs, with no room to maneuver the pulley rein is much more valuable to control the speed and direction while waiting for sanity to return. My first explosive horse would give less than a half second of muscle tension before reacting, so it's useful to have other methods in place for when you're bolting before you have thought or time to apply a one rein stop.

That's why I know that a pulley rein is a useful tool. A one rein stop isn't bad, it can be very good. But I think everyone should have a few tools available, including horses that have a good stop, a _great_ turn and ability to bend (most important in my book), and lateral movement as well. That way you can employ what is working for a particular horse in a particular situation. But I'd rather have steering ability than stopping power, any day.

The pulley rein seems to be misunderstood, and I can see why when there are videos on Youtube showing it done by people in massive leverage bits. There should never be any issue with harming a horse or cutting their mouth!! The pulley rein is for when a horse is accidentally under bitted. I should hope you could stop any horse if they are in a strong enough bit. Even in a full on mindless panic, the right bit will reach through after the initial panic. At the very least, the horse will turn unless they are severely undertrained or under bitted, in which case what were you thinking getting yourself in this situation? 

But as BSMS has said, sometimes you need to shout in order for the horse to hear you over their mental noise. If you have a bit that whispers, and then the horse panics, they will not be able to hear it. So I've only ever used a pulley rein on horses in bits that would never harm their mouth. All other horses have slowed down in a short time if they were in a bit that was appropriate for their mental ability even when excited. In these cases, I don't see how you could physically harm the horse or think the pulley rein too strong, since your own physical strength is very limiting in these situations.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

FWIW, I have never needed to train a one rein stop onto a horse. I figure out if the horse has been trained to give to a bit. If yes, then he will one rein stop. Simple as that for my purposes, since I almost never use it.

I have successfully gotten one rein stops on horses that did not have it drilled into them. Did I pull their head around by actually pulling on the rein and not doing too much with the leg? Yes. Not the most graceful movement, but if the horse is so far gone that I can't stop him normally, it doesn't need to be graceful, it needs to be effective.

However, I have ridden many types of horses through many different situations, and really almost never used it. I did do small tight almost one rein stop circles on my own mare when other strange horses were standing around, as she could not be trusted not to kick out at them, issue since resolved. That's about the most I've ever used them.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There are times when the application of the 1 rein stop is useful - mostly if you can apply if before the horse actually gets into full flight mode, for a horse that tries to bolt off when being mounted, and its useful for horse that bucks/rears provided you can get the head around before its starts doing either.
It's only going to work if the horse is listening to you though - so if its ignoring all of the regular cues to stop that you use every day why would it respond to one that you rarely use? 
A horse in real panic or bolting with real intent locks its jaw and neck muscles so no way is it going to turn that head around to your leg and not just that - for the 1 rein stop to work safely on a narrow track or on a busy road its also got to keep its body straight - and the majority of horse when they feel that pull to bring the head/neck around will automatically swing their quarters over - because that's what they're usually being asked to do - turn/bend into that direction and if that happens your attempts to save yourself and horse could result in an even worse accident
The other risk is that you pull the head around at the wrong point in the horses stride and you tip him over - it's the technique used on stunt horses to 'drop them' to the ground to 'cue' 
I can find plenty of videos of how to do a 1 rein stop but I've never been able to find one of a rider doing one from anything but a walk
And our horses that do dressage spend as much time out of an arena as they do in one - they even go into the mountains and are as agile, bold and stoic as any regular trail horse - but probably a lot stronger and hotter to ride


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Gottotrot,* that horse in the video is plain show sour, and shows a rider still trying to complete a pattern, versus schooling that horse**,shuting it down, not worrying about placing.*
> Sorry, that video does not cut it for me, far as trying to prove anything relevant to this post.! You can see reiners, being just as 'athletic', getting on the muscle as you walk to center, before even beginning the pattern, throwing in extra moves, just because they can, if they are never corrected in the showpen, so that they think different rules apply in that pen, then outside of it.
> * I really don't know what point you were trying to make, showing a spoiled horse, except that they are 'too athletic' to learn body control??????*


Bolding mine.

Did you bother to read the comments on the video or did you make a snap judgement based on 30 seconds of viewing the video? I will assume the latter. The horse is NOT show ring sour or spoiled, it was unfortunate timing for a well trained Olympic horse and rider. 

This is what happened, quote from the video comments:

Can I say that as someone who was there on the day, it was an ENORMOUS shower and the skies literally opened like a shower being turned on. All the TV camera's right in front the centre line and around the arena started pulling out bright orange covers which flapped in order to cover the cameras. The crowd also started opening umbrellas and running out of their seats for cover. What made it worse was that the crowd actually started screaming. There was absolutely no consideration for the horse and rider and i have EXTREME respect for the rider keeping it all as calm as he did. It was an enormous shame for both horse and rider and the Canadian team. Next time can the public just sit quietly and respect horse and rider have a job to do under extremely difficult circumstances.﻿​

****the Olympics is not the place to school a horse, and to suggest a horse be trained at the Olympics shows ignorance and more. Furthermore, in those conditions with the rain, umbrellas, and screaming, schooling would not have been advisable.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

LOOk, this thread is getting ridiculous , with CA,s flexing used in reining mixed up with the one rein stop, or even the fact that body control, as per those vidoes by Larry Trocha, just using body control, so that you use judgment, as to when to use the one rein stop, as Cheri described-complete stop, or just taking the head away, as shown by Larry Trocha 
So, here we are discussing the one -rein stop, and not the rountine flexing done by CA, okay THat does not mean you drill ahorse with it over and over again. I just get on and ride, and that includes no lunging, even when a horse has stood tied all night, in the mounatins, with wolves howling and elk bugling, then riidng out before dawn, with acold wind blowing out of those mountain draws, and immediately on trails where there is no room for error-so I think I have ridden horses in more serious trial rides and all kinds of stuff, then you are talking about!
Horseluvr, if you used a one rein stop, at a gallop, on a horse never taught it, that was not exactly smart. The idea, is to use the one rein stop, or taking the head away' BEFORE the horse gets in a full out gallop
I hope never to need to use the pully rein, being on a horse in a full out bolt!The idea is to never get to that point!
BSMS, obviously, you did not watch those vidoes by Larry trocha, as body control, taking the head away, gets horse`s mind back on you and thinking, versus reacting to their inborn flight instinct
Come ride in the mounatins with me, and not just on paved streets, and open flat land, and where we have big game
I also mentioned that I perhaps used the one rein stop, or taking the head away, a handful of times only, and that my horses are broke, so they usually never offer to spook, and then try to leave the country, and I would dare think that my horses have as good, if not better correct stop on them, then any of yours
Sure, you can have a horse look at something, like a rock up on that trail, keep him moving forward, and he then realizes it is no threat.
However, have you ever ridden a horse, not ever exposed to cattle, buffalo, and then have young heifers bounding up to the fence, next to the road you are riding down. A simple whoa, at times does not cut it, so waht are you going to do, let the horse run past, with those young heifers running along beside that fence, leaping and bucking, using the pully rein, hoping for the best. Myself, I use body control, make the horse face those cattle, and show the hrose he can make them give ground
(99 % 0f the time, I never need to use any version of the one rein stop, encountering whatever my horse is concerned about, is not scary enough to have him try to run through that bit
When ahorse is being stung by hornets, he is not going to stop and think about it. When a coyote jumps out from under a tarp, you are riding past-ditto. When a moose doe snot just stand there, but is curious, and comes towards your horse, that nice whoa you have taught with the bit, might just not be enough
Horselouvr, controlling your horse, around other horses, is hardly like getting a horse under control that has a true fright experience. Ever come suddenly across a herd of elk, with the numbers enough that even you can smell them. Hoe about a grizzly bear, that your husband is hunting. Ever pack an elk out at night, along a mounatin trail, with dangerous bear signs in the area.
Elaborate a bit, as to where you have ridden àll kinds of horses`` 
I guess you also don`t really read posts, as I think I mentioned that I hardly ,ever practice the one rein stop, after I have just put it on my horse, and it is just there in case I ever need it. That means , most times, I just use whoa, or keep forward motion, and ride past whatever is concerning my horse
I have also ridden horses out in the mountains , with maybe two months training on them, and not just solid broke horses with several years of riding on them


Note, Carmen is just standing here, on one of her first mountain rides, and seeing elk for the first time. She is not overly concerned, so I am just letting her look at them. If those elk were to come towards her, I have the option of taking her head away, diffuing a possible natural flight reaction







So, lets see where you ride horseluver, where any body control, or perhaps the one rein stop, might not be useful in that 1 % of situtations


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Maybe the trick to not falling over lies in the feel of the rider. I have initiated a ORS at a canter and at a trot, in a bosal, snaffle and leverage bit and not had any issue with the horse falling over, he slowed his steps in a manageable way until he stopped. I got the head around no problem and then, especially in the bosal, used a very slight tighten-release-tighten-release pulse on the rein rather than a constant pull. We practiced doing this at faster speeds, before it was needed and the horse was panicked.. It was a trained maneuver for teaching both the horse and allowing the rider to get the correct timing down so that the rider won't react in a panic either. 

As to the winging the hip around during ORS, in teaching the horse to flex properly, that is one of the things you are trying to teach the horse in the very beginning stages, once they have the initial bend down, release comes when you stand still. Eventually you can get that head around and the horse will not automatically move out that back end, it is what you are reinforcing when you mount up, stand still and ask for flex before riding out. Which some people say they don't do, but there is a reason for it. 

When you add the “disengagement” part with your leg that is when the hip is allowed to come around, but not until then. If you always initiate bringing that head around followed immediately by the disengage, the horse learns to anticipate instead of waiting for the leg cue.

The mental: Oliver will tend to let his mind wander after about ½ hour in the arena, as soon as I stop and ask him to flex right, left, he is immediately mentally back with me, no different than say some people will use riding a series of tight circles or backing up, except what I have found, is that using a calmly initiated flex to get his attention results in a more relaxed mental focus with him than "moving the feet".

Since I cannot climb into my horse’s brain to know exactly what he is thinking, all I can say is that at least in his case, perhaps due to the way the training has been used, it has become a signal to him “Hey! Back on me!” and it worked on a recent baulk (where he was scared, snorting, trying to spin and bolt, see the sudden appearance of the flying boy scouts from a ledge above us mentioned earlier) we had where every other attempt to move forward failed. Again, it is a trained response that took conscious practice.

It’s not the end-all-be-all solution for every problem, in every situation, for every horse and every rider, but if I was waiting to find that for ANYTHING in riding then I would be waiting a very long time! It is just a handy thing, among a myriad of things, to have trained properly into the horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

updownrider said:


> Bolding mine.
> 
> Did you bother to read the comments on the video or did you make a snap judgement based on 30 seconds of viewing the video? I will assume the latter. The horse is NOT show ring sour or spoiled, it was unfortunate timing for a well trained Olympic horse and rider.
> 
> ...




No, I did not read the comments, nor was I commenting on degree of training, or what level or where that competition was, just that the video had zero to do with this topic!
Showing a horse acting up, no matter the reason, has zero to do with flexing. I did not chose that video to try and show anything relevant to the topic, as I remarked on what I saw, in relationship to this thread, and not the occasion , practicality, ect
Sorry, many horses perform in those kinds of distractions, and while it was not a place to school a horse, the fact remains, even highly trained horses can become show sour, regardless of discipline


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> There are times when the application of the 1 rein stop is useful - mostly if you can apply if before the horse actually gets into full flight mode, for a horse that tries to bolt off when being mounted, and its useful for horse that bucks/rears provided you can get the head around before its starts doing either.
> It's only going to work if the horse is listening to you though - so if its ignoring all of the regular cues to stop that you use every day why would it respond to one that you rarely use?
> A horse in real panic or bolting with real intent locks its jaw and neck muscles so no way is it going to turn that head around to your leg and not just that - for the 1 rein stop to work safely on a narrow track or on a busy road its also got to keep its body straight - and the majority of horse when they feel that pull to bring the head/neck around will automatically swing their quarters over - because that's what they're usually being asked to do - turn/bend into that direction and if that happens your attempts to save yourself and horse could result in an even worse accident
> The other risk is that you pull the head around at the wrong point in the horses stride and you tip him over - it's the technique used on stunt horses to 'drop them' to the ground to 'cue'
> ...



I think we pretty much agree, as I certainly have said, the idea of the one rein stop, or just taking the head away, to to avoid an all out bolt, as then the one rein stop could be very dangerous, esp unless that horse had been trained at the gallop, using the one rein stop, before you ever really need it. I admit to never having tried it at a true out bolt, and have never had to go to that level in the first place, as the idea of the one rein stop, being able to take the head away, is to SHUT DOWN' an attempted bolt or buck, before they occur.
We try to ride `sensible`out here, in the mountains. I did ride a race bred App mare that had been on the track, when I was younger, and would not now ride such a horse there. Yup, she did not have a one rein stop on her, and I survived. Does not mean that I have since not learned being able to take a horse`s head away at times, can be useful, in that 1% of the time situation, you might come across.
Bold, does not always just cut it, esp when the un expected happens, and that is not just umbellas and crowd noise, in m a confined area, but coming across real concerns, that even concern me!
We ride where there are feral stallions, and those bachelor studs can be quite determined to get a mare you are riding.Ever have a feral stud come towards you, with your husband needing to fire over the head of that horse.
Nowhere did I suggest using the one rein stop on a bolting horse,esp one that never had it used on him, being first trained as Cheri suggested, at the walk, trot and only then the gallop. Personally, I have never done that , as I always hope my horse is trained enough, that I can get control before he ever even tries to bolt. That is the entire point!
Yes, I have watched enough movies to know how those horses are caused to fall in those galloping scenes, esp ever since the time tripwires have been outlawed


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

A common joke is that it rained because I washed my car. Most people realize how the two events are not likely related. Less obvious is the fact that we are more aware of people driving the same kind of car after we purchase one. It is unlikely that more people have suddenly begun to purchase this model vehicle. 

How does this relate to horseback riding? It is a matter of focus.

When discussing horseback riding, it is important to realize that many factors are influencing both horse and rider at the same time – and these are constantly changing. 

When we see a horse – or many horses – holding its head a certain way when moving in a way we like, we may think that placing a horse’s head in this position with, in itself, make the horse move in this way.

When we realize that a horse has a greater ability to move when flexible, we may begin to focus on flexibility – perhaps only in one specific area – while giving less emphasis to other aspects of movement.

Nobody can focus on everything that is happening whether they are riding or observing. The more things we are aware of, however, the better we will be able to judge, access, and adjust. The more experiences we encounter, whether similar or divergent, the more our knowledge increases. The more we hear of, read of, or view riding experiences, the more our knowledge increases. But we must have an good awareness of all that is happening – or as much as we can take in at any moment. This includes the concept of “feel” when riding a horse. We should learn to “listen” to our horse when riding and understand how it is reacting to various influences. We should also be aware of what our own body is doing – not concentrating on just one thing, but being aware of many different things.

This is not easy. It may become confusing. But it may also help us to understand where other people are coming from and lessen the degree of argumentation generated when people address an issue while focusing on different specifics. It may help us from "talking past each other".


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

As to your question Jaydee, as to why a horse would listen to the one rein stop, or just get back under control, taking his head away, as shown in those videos by Larry trocha, you would get your answer Perhaps watch them, if you really wish to know that answer
Being able to take the head away, makes it very difficult for the horse to bolt or buck, and in doing so, you can get his mind back on you, to where he will just respond to that usual whoa
I don`t know, the vidoes are there, and explain it very well, and yet there is the assumption by BSMS that those of us who might use the one rein stop, or take that head away in some rare situation, somehow are too stupid, too un skilled to teach a correct stop, using two reins, or to have our horses broke enough, so that 99 % of the time, or even never, do we even need to resort to the one rein stop
I have airbags in my car, and have yet to have to use them
I can, and have taught perfect flying cadenced lead changes, having earned ROMS in western riding with several horses. I have won reining-where you certain need a good correct stop. I have shown in trail classes, equitation classes, so I think I know how to get a horse broke in his entire body, and am not some idiot that finds the one rein stop, or the ability to take the head away, as a substitute for proper training!It is just another tool to have, to help get control of your horse, to get his mind back on you, when he encounters something that truly kicks in his flight reaction, beyond where it can be diffused simply by that trained response `to `whoa


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"BSMS, obviously, you did not watch those vidoes by Larry trocha..."

Actually, I paid for one of his video courses and watched all the videos and listened to all the audio. I like Larry Trocha. I may buy access to another one of his courses. But his goals are different from mine, so I adjust. He says horses always become less sensitive to the bit, so he'll use a thin, twisted wire snaffle to lighten them:










GD Bits ? Snaffles | Horse Training Videos and DVDs

Horse Training Tips ? Bitting Info | Horse Training Videos and DVDs

Me? I figure if my horse is getting harder on the bit, I'm doing something I don't want to do. So far, my horses have gotten lighter on the bit with time, not harder. But I don't compete and don't train horses for other riders. I couldn't do what Larry Trocha does. But that is OK, because my goals are different.

"_Come ride in the mounatins with me, and not just on paved streets, and open flat land, and where we have big game..._"

Spare me the condescension. For many horses, including Bandit, a neighborhood filled with weird people things is much more stressful. Bandit relaxes when we reach desert. Doesn't get upset by coyotes (which he has chased before), dogs, javelina, deer, rattlesnakes...but can worry a lot about a piece of plywood! I've been shot at while riding Cowboy, and Cowboy was NOT happy, but he didn't need a ORS or a history of deep flexing to control him when we rode TO the gunfire.

And if your horse explodes on pavement, it will get your attention in a way that an arena full of soft dirt (or a meadow) will not.

Trooper was ridden many miles in places with elk without learning the ORS or being flexed to extremes. He used to work in country like this, without a ORS:








​ 
I do not object to someone teaching their horse a ORS. I don't object to training a horse using deep flexing, if it works for your horse and goals. Baucher did it with great success, and many people report having been helped by following CA's program. I do not doubt them.

But I see no sign either deep flexing or a ORS is a requirement for controlling a horse. 

As for 'body control' - if Bandit does a 180, I can keep him turning a full 360 so we end up facing what he was trying to avoid - neck reining. When he is uncomfortable, he still goes with one hand and neck reining. If he startles and leaps forward, he stops with one hand bumping a snaffle. If I can steer him and stop him with one hand and a snaffle, neck reining, then why would it be softer to jerk his nose to my toes?

I don't feel the need to control my horse's every foot. As I've explained to him more than once when he has stumbled, taking care of his feet is HIS job, not mine. But what I object to in the term "body control" is the mental picture that comes with it:
."...When the supplings have subjected the instinctive forces of the horse, and given them up completely into our power, *the animal will be nothing more in our hand than a passive, expectant machine*, ready to act upon the impulsion we choose to communicate to him. It will be for us, then, as sovereign disposers of all his forces, to combine the employment of them in correct proportion to the movements we wish to execute..." ​.
Folks will do as they wish, but if I want a "passive, expectant machine", I'll get a dirt bike.

"_why a horse would listen to the one rein stop, or just get back under control, taking his head away, as shown in those videos by Larry trocha, you would get your answer Perhaps watch them, if you really wish to know that answer_"

Depends on the horse. A submissive sort of horse might respond well to it. A horse who thinks on his own may respond, as gottatrot has pointed out, by feeling trapped. And a trapped horse is far more likely to explode hard than one with options. Yes, it was reading a book that exposed me to that idea, but I've seen it work now with two intelligent horses. But some of us HAVE watched lots of Larry Trocha's stuff, and even like his training videos, without feeling a need to blindly follow everything he says. Why? Because some of us have been successful using other techniques, based on OUR goals and philosophy of riding. It is really a rather limited segment of the world-wide riding community that uses a ORS.

It isn't "wrong", but neither is it the salvation of horses.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I still don't get an answer to why teaching a ORS is bad.

BSMS, I know you have never ridden a colt on his first couple rides, so you have no idea what it's like when a truly ornery one (Something that when started right, usually doesn't happen, but there's exceptions to every rule...) tries to take a hold of the reins and do something stupid. 

Hell, my Zoey I had to take away from my boyfriend (A good rider but not a good horseman) because I feared she was going to kill him. So I confiscated her, started her, and we went for a ride. That mare knocked me around more than any other colt I'd ever started. She didn't buck necessarily but she had a habit of running full speed at a fence and slamming herself into it. Do you think a two rein stop would have helped me then, in a round pen, on a colts first two rides?

And to quote you, "spare me the condescension" of saying something along the line of "you should have just taught her to stop on the ground!" because quite frankly you have no idea how much that doesn't translate under saddle on a large powerful animal who not only disregards YOUR safety, but also disregards hers. This is the same mare that after 30 days of riding, got mad and threw herself over backwards on me. I was fortunate enough to jump off when I saw it coming and boy did I make her sorry, but some colts are going to be that way. She's the only one I've ever had this kind of trouble with, so she is an exception, not the rule - But without adding extra tools to my toolbox (ORS, anyone???) that mare would have badly injured, if not killed me right off the bat.

So WHAT if our horse knows the ORS? WHY is that bad? Again, as Smilie said, we are not some random nutter butter CA follower who buys the DVDs and practices at home with our one single backyard horse - We are the exact opposite of that. 


Another example, just the other day I was helping a client with her new horse she bought. She doesn't know anything about horses. She bought a finished, broke cutting horse. She got on, the horse tensed, she tensed up her reins, the horse went flying backwards (as he was trained to do, not to be malicious) and suddenly that two rein stop was basically useless to her. I managed to talk her through it as the horse hit his hind end on the fence, jumped forward, crowhopped, and I managed to get her convinced she needed to let go of the reins, reach down, and bend him around to stop.

I can give you more situations where it's handy to have, if you'd like. 

I also have a WHOLE OTHER POST that I've talked about dozens of times by now that describe what else I would use that sort of bend for that everyone likes to pretend doesn't exist.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

bsms said:


> "
> 
> 
> 
> ...


People who get the "trapped response" on a horse taught it completely wrong, to be frank. 

And you don't just do it when you get into trouble. You teach it way before then. Muscle memory. 

As for you not wanting to control every foot....I pray for your sake you never find yourself in a situation where you need to, and suddenly realize you never trained it in and aren't able to. Because there's nothing worse than a preventable disaster, or injury to yourself or your horse. I've been there, and it made me train harder, because I'm not interested in getting myself killed on a horse and if I can prevent injury in any way, I'm going to do it, and pray that I never need the tools I've put in my box.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie - I did watch that video and I've watched many more exactly the same and every time I make the same comments
In each one the horse is either stationary or moving slowly - now yes it will prevent a bolt from that situation if the horse knows how to react correctly because I've used it successfully myself on horses that have wanted to bolt off the moment your backside hits the saddle, I don't even wait to get my feet in the stirrups, they're spinning round before they know what's hit them
But
Even under Trocha's experienced seat that horse is covering enough ground as he turns around to put horse and rider underneath a truck if you did that on a typical busy UK road or over the side of some of narrow trails we have here that have got very steep drops to the side so there are places where I wouldn't even contemplate trying to do it
Secondly - Speaking only from my own experience - the majority of times when I've seen horses bolt or ridden horses that have bolted they don't get out of control until they're already into canter or gallop and I personally wouldn't want to try a 1 rein stop on a horse going at speed especially on rough or uneven ground


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Oh I would Jaydee, and I have, tried to stop horses that way on uneven ground.

Horses know where their feet are, or I guess at least my kind of horses do. They are not so clumsy that they are going to just fall right down.

Don't get me wrong, a little spook, loping off a few strides, that's whatever - But if I had one who was really either bucking hard, or bolting - You bet I don't care what terrain I'm in, I'm going to grab a hold of their head. I've been in truly terrifying situations and I'd rather risk the horse falling than dumping me off the side of a cliff.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Jaydee, as I said before, you use what is correct for the situation. I believe that I have ridden steeper trails, with more drop offs then you ever have, as I have gone BIg Horn sheep hunting, and those trophy rams are way up above the tree line, in some remote mountain basin. You get there, by riding very steep trails, with switchbacks, and often drop offs where you can say the entire Lord's prayer on the way down.
first of all, I take a broke horse on those rides, who is just as concerned as i, far as not going over the edge, and most times, just keeping forward, using body control, like a counter flex, works getting you by that boulder which is sitting on top of that crest, looking like a bear
I also ride along traffic, and then the counter flex and forward works fine, as it is a no brianer that you are not going to circle a horse, where it might take him into traffic

We have huge farm machinery passing, B trains and oil rig equipment. What then works for me, is not stopping, but asking first of all for the face and poll, keeping forward, and if the horse should spook, putting him into a body position, so that the only direction he can spook, is into the ditch, away from that traffic
LaRRY IS TALKING OF A 'TRAIL RIDE', NOT JUST HACKING OUT, riding down a road, but out where you just might run into deer suddenly exploding out of the brush, come across a bear,or coming across that big herd of park horses, that are wintered at the Ya Ha tinda, galloping wildly in front of you, down to water, with your horse naturally wanting to join in. I don't know about you, but body control works there for me!
No one advocated trying the one rein stop, at a gallop, on ahorse never taught to respond to it!
I am with you, Sorrelhorse, that we are going round and round on a Merry Go round, with all kinds of abstracts that have no application, with that lateral flexing applied to how an English horse goes, at his job, and the one rein stop confused or lumping into that exercise, and also assuming it is one or the other-that those of us that actual have the one rein stop in our arsenal, then only use it, in exclusion to any other method, or don't teach other fundamentals-yes BSMS, I can teach a horse to stop,squarely using a bit, as well as you, and not trying to be condescending, but most likley better then you!
If I only used the one rein stop, versus mainly teaching a correct hindend stop, do you think I could ever show in reining, equitation, trail?
I also learn how to react when I encounter a bear, versus a cougar-it is applying the right technique for the situation!


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

Personally, I teach both the ORS and the pulley rein figuring it's just like seat belts that I always fasten.......you hope you never need them, but are thankful if you do!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

`Sorrelhorse

I can give you more situations where it's handy to have, if you'd like. `

Will not make a difference, as I already posted and asked what someone would use instead, if they got into a nest of ground hornets, with your horse naturally wanting to either bolt or buck. Worked for me, to take the head away, and have enough time to step off. This was when Smilie was two, on her first trail ride
Also asked as to how you would just use two reins to keep your horse just from bolting, when that big old moose never just stood there, or left, but out of curiosity, came towards you
I have ridden in plenty of traffic, including downtown Calgary, riding my horse in, from where he was boarded, before I had a trailer, so I could ride him in the Stampede parade the next day (spent over night in my future in law`s back yard.I used to ride horses in parades until that became too boring-so I am not just a country bumkin, whose horses never encounter traffic! In fact, unless I haul somewhere, my riding out is down our gravel road, where not just cars and trucks pass, but oil rig equipment and heavy farm machinery. You then use what method works best for the situation, or even a combo of them. You don`t go on blind ABC type of mindset , and try circling a horse! In fact, your horse might not be able to hold his `s``t together, and spook into that ditch, and then you sure as hell can use the one rein stop to keep him from following that spook by trying to wheel around and bolt home!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Smilie - I did watch that video and I've watched many more exactly the same and every time I make the same comments
> In each one the horse is either stationary or moving slowly - now yes it will prevent a bolt from that situation if the horse knows how to react correctly because I've used it successfully myself on horses that have wanted to bolt off the moment your backside hits the saddle, I don't even wait to get my feet in the stirrups, they're spinning round before they know what's hit them
> But
> Even under Trocha's experienced seat that horse is covering enough ground as he turns around to put horse and rider underneath a truck if you did that on a typical busy UK road or over the side of some of narrow trails we have here that have got very steep drops to the side so there are places where I wouldn't even contemplate trying to do it
> Secondly - Speaking only from my own experience - the majority of times when I've seen horses bolt or ridden horses that have bolted they don't get out of control until they're already into canter or gallop and I personally wouldn't want to try a 1 rein stop on a horse going at speed especially on rough or uneven ground


The horse is out of control, the minute he even thinks about bolting, way before he is ever in a full out gallop Thus you apply that one rein stop, to get his mind back on you,.
I think I already posted of using body control and forward, to ride past traffic, and never suggested you work on Larry`s exercise there. You see, most of us, don`t consider riding in traffic as trail riding, the subject of his videos, and on taking the horse`s head away
You are also not going to be using that exercise on a narrow mountain schale trail, about two feet wide, with a drop off where that river below, looks a long long, long, long ways off!, nor on a trail so steep I have trouble climbing, should I get off.
I then rely on my horse being broke enough to keep forward, and his natural self preservation to no more wish to fall, over the edge then I. I have though, had ahorse fall to his knees on such atrail, but he was a good enough trail horse, that he did not just panic and scramble to his feet, which would have put both of us over the edge.
He knelt there, and I stepped off on the off side. He then rocked back onto his hind feet, and got up without ever putting himself in danger of accidentally going over the edge
I try to ride broke and smart, but that doe snot mean it is somehow stupid, poor horsemanship, to have that one rein strop or the ability to take the head away, in a situation where you make a judgement call


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Oh the bees, Smilie...My worst nightmare.

When I was a kid (And I mean like, two years old - I barely remember it but it's my Mom's favorite story) I was riding in front of my Mom's friend's daughter who was twelve at the time, on the oldest most brokest horse in the world. Mom and her friend were riding one in front and one in back. We were just going down our driveway, a safe road - But it was the middle of august, and the bees were out. Not sure what happened as we were in the middle of the road, but I remember buzzing and falling, that twelve year old girl saved my life by grabbing a hold of her horse, jumping off with me, and then running as fast as she could. My mom got bucked off, her horse ran into the woods, the friend managed to stay on but we all ran back home. Found Mom's horse high centered on a low branch by her back cinch, she has been stung so many times - But we cut the branch, got her down, and got her to the vet. Mom always says what she should of done different, could have taken her head away, could have steered her the other way, should have stayed with her, whatever.

Years later, that same girl and I have been friends for a lot of years. We were on a trail ride with a couple friends, including another girl who was about thirteen on my old broke gelding. Well this gelding had seen bees a lot of times. She was in the middle of the pack. Horse in front stirred up the nest, all the horses behind her got swamped. That girl fell off, hit her head so hard (Thank god she was wearing a helmet) that her helmet cracked right down the middle. Myself and my friend managed to turn our horses in circles, jump off, and get out of dodge. 

During the latter, if I had not taught my horse to be so responsive to a one rein stop, I would have been flying on a finished race horse at 35mph down a narrow, rocky, steep hill with a massive fast flowing river at the bottom that had a fallen tree that was low - It would have been directly head height, and I have no doubt that would be a concussion at LEAST, some serious trauma at worst.

If you do not take anything out of these stories about the actual topic we are talking about, I sure hope you have the skill to jump off a running horse at full speed instead.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie said:


> The horse is out of control, the minute he even thinks about bolting, way before he is ever in a full out gallop Thus you apply that one rein stop, to get his mind back on you,.


Rubbish
I guess you've never been fox hunting or eventing on a horse that suddenly decides its going to go a lot faster than you intended to go and then totally zones out on you.
I have never had a horse spook and try to bolt with me since I was 9 years old and even then I'd stopped that pony within 20 yards so I guess I must be doing something right because I've ridden plenty of spooky horses over the years


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Jaydee, every situation is unique.

I've not foxhunted but I've gathered a lot of cattle on open territory, I used to do it on colts for the experience. I was after the herd one day and they were moving fast, so was I - I was bombing through at almost full speed, through deep creeks, mud holes, brush. Up to my horses chest in clay mud and I had it all over my face and the front of me. Luckily I knew I had broke this colt well so I didn't need to use any of my emergency brakes, but I did "test" a little - After all, my job was to train. When I got on a big flat stretch I kicked the mare into fifth gear and let her go. Hit a couple curves up on the main road, tap my inside leg and rein on each one, that mare immediately flickered her nose back to me and slowed. There is no doubt in my mind if she was to bolt away from me, I would be able to get control of her.

Same could be said about stopping straight, even running at that speed after the cows she so desperately wanted, when I relaxed my body and exhaled she slowed to me.

To me, it is about having control. It doesn't mean every time something goes wrong I grab the nose, but the fact that if I HAD to, I could, means something to me. 

Being a horseman means shutting down situations before they become a problem. If at any point gathering cattle, whether I was in the desert of Nevada where I worked winters or up in the bog at home in Oregon in the summer, I felt like I was out of control - I would shut my horse down.

But that's just it, right - You train for it, you proof the behavior, you make it so there's no other choice. And you prepare for the worst, and any situation you can think of, to keep yourself and your horse safe. Everyone here is acting like sideways flexion and a one rein stop is totally useless in all situations - Well, I hope none of you ever need it since it's not even worth your time to teach. Good luck...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Right,Jaydee, you use what works , for the situation'
I think we have been through the scenario, where a horse gets strong, already working at speed, as in your fox hunting example. I think Larry is talking about the average trail ride and you sure don't go galloping at foxhunting speed, or even gallop-period!, Also not talking about a horse that gets strong,in that gallop, where you might need to go to s strong bit, as you posted before, or the pully rein. I think the topic was on a horse that spooks, then tries to bolt-so again, you are looking for examples that really don't apply
Obviously, that foxhunting horse gets out of control, when he takes charge of that gallop, and then using a pully rein might be the way to go 
The one rein stop, has it's main application of getting that horse under control BEFORE he bolts or bucks, after either a balk, or a follow up to a spook. You sit that spook , and then get control after that spook, so if a horse spooks, then wheels around to bolt or buck,manages to take off, yes, you have missed that 'starting gate'
It would be rather stupid to just decide that one rein stop never has application, and perhaps join some of those that here were air lifted by Stars out of the mountains, as happens to riders every year. No, not all could have been averted by having that one rein stop, esp if you get swept away crossing a river when it id really up, but some of them sure as heck could have been, being able to take that head away!
That is the point. I don't think that I ever said that the one rein stop is the solution in every case, but neither is the answer to just blindly throw it away, refusing to accept that it has application in some situations


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Smilie, you sure make a lot of assumptions about a lot of people. You have no idea how well trained the horses I own and ride are. While you are saying to come ride in your mountains, I can turn that around and say you come ride in our deserts.
Very different environments, and as you stated above, you use what works for the situation.

I did not say a word about you nor attack you in my post. I skimmed some about ORS and then put in my .02 cents, not directly answering anyone's posts as I hadn't thoroughly read them. This is a forum, we are allowed to offer opinions and our own experiences.

I have never tried to ORS a horse at full out bolt/gallop. I never said I did either. I simply explained my own personal experience and use of ORS.

I never said ALL horses in ALL situations, I said many horses in many situations.

As per the last sentence of your above post, I don't think anyone has blindly thrown away the ORS. I know that I have not, but as I said, only use it rarely.

Pulling the 'I know more than you and my horses are better trained' card is a very condescending approach. Whether you do and they are or not, it is very arrogant of you. I very much dislike people who talk down to those who don't know as much. It hinders the learning process and is extremely condescending and rude.

Now this thread is tired and old and I will take my leave of it.


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## Partita (Feb 19, 2016)

It does not matter one single bit if your horse is a reiner, a carriage horse, a show jumper, dressage horse, trail horse, pasture pet or a kids pony ring pony. Every horse functions exactly the same way. Their biomechanics are exactly the same. Tinyliny asked for our individual experiences and knowledge on the subject, so I will give mine here. I think I can clear up some anatomy misunderstandings. I missed the other thread entirely and I'll admit I haven't read all of this one. Not enough alcohol in the house for that in one sitting. LOL. 

The poll joint is the junction between the back of the skull and the front of the first vertebrae, C1, also known as the atlas. The poll can flex both up and down and directly side to side. So, the horse, at this joint, can make a nodding motion or look to the left or right. 

The second joint in the neck is between C1 (the atlas) and C2 (the axis). C1 is the funny shaped vertebrae with the wings at the top of the neck, easy to see and feel. It is shaped differently than the other vertebrae and functions completely differently. The ONLY motion that can occur at this joint is a twisting motion. So when you see a horse with unlevel ears or going with a crooked head (not plumb to the ground), then you know it is THIS joint that is activated, and not the poll. A horse moving in this manner is surely braced.

The poll joint cannot twist and the atlas/axis joint cannot flex.

When you see a horse with what we call a broken neck, it is flexing at the joint between C2 and C3 or even C3 and C4. Why does the horse do this? Because it is braced. And most likely the rider is pulling on the reins. Many dressage riders do this and the horses go in a perpetual brace with their head behind the vertical. Some horses get so locked up they swing their necks from the base, C7, like a butlers door back and forth. 

Why do we do flexions? That is a good question and one I think most people should spend alot more time thinking and learning about BEFORE attempting. Pull up a good drawing of a skeleton and study it. Or study the material of Dr. Bennett already offered up by another poster. Better yet, go take her anatomy class and see for yourself how it all works.

The first photo that tinyliny posted in the very first post (bay horse, guy in white shirt and hat) shows a horse correctly flexing at the poll, but he is flexing and bending the neck to the extreme. Also, both horse and rider are leaning over the horses outside shoulder (flexed left, leaning right). They are doing the same in the other photo (flexed right, leaning left). All the vertebrae in the neck (the entire spine for that matter) do not have the ability to flex equally. And there is such a thing as overdoing it. Of course, for all we know, these photos were set up as a demo for something. There appears to be much more softness to the left than the right. I see some head tilting in a few of your other photos.

Flexions are not just to address the poll, or the neck, but every joint throughout the entire spine, beginning with the jaw. So WHY do people lash it shut with tight nosebands creating a brace right up front?!

One other thing I can add to this thread is THINK OUTSIDE OF THE SHOW ARENA. When you constantly compare everything to how it would be judged in the show ring, your mind is slammed shut to so much more that came before horse shows existed. The old masters who discovered and wrote about these things did not do so after a lifetime of competition. 

Happy riding (and flexing) everyone!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Horselouvr, you also have failed to read all posts, as there were members that indeed said the one rein stop never had application, and that also is not true.
Not once, did I ever suggest to try and use the one rein stop, at a full out bolt, and on a horse that never was taught it to begin with.
Note, I also said that most times, esp riding out a broke horse, I never need it, but we do ride where there is big game, and during hunting season, with lots of rifle shots
There are some of us, presently, and I in the past, that rode fairly green horses out, then moving on to another horse, thus did not always have a seasoned horse to trail ride, and there are times you need to shut a colt down-now.
Because you did not need the one rein stop, to correct your broke mare around other horses, does not mean it never has application, and that was my point.
A broke horse, most times does not try to 'leave the country' , after a true fear spook, be it some deer suddenly jumping out, or cattle running up behind them, on a grazing lease, but a colt just might, and then the one rein stop has an advantage in keeping control, then just depending on a two rein stop, as per bSMS post
I actually have ridden in the desert, or a trip to Las Vegas, not that it makes a difference
I also can read into your post, which came across that your horse was so well broke that you had no need for the one rein stop, just fixing her behavior around other horses, thus, anyone who needs to use the one rein stop at times, obviously can't train a broke horse, which is also far from the truth.Perhaps those like Sorrelhorse, Cheri and myself, because we ride/rode many horses , started colts,actually understand the value of being able to take that head away at times If you never need it-good, but that does not negate that it is a valuable tool to have on ahorse, 'just in case, and to be used not blindly, but in the right situation


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Partita, that was a great post! Very informative and made me go "ohhhh, that paints quite the picture! Makes much more sense now!"


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

If you wish to take everything Dr Deb Bennett says as gospel , here is some more info. I actually took in quite a few of her talks, when she came up tot he Annual horse breeder and owners conference.
Those riding TBs and drafts should take note, if they wish to follow her by the letter!
According to the great Dr Deb Bennett, who by the way, is paleontologist, an not a vet, there are only three main classifications of horses,and we err right at the point when we interchange them as to use.

Pulling horses
Race horses
Riding horses

Can't blindly take her thoughts on one subject , and then just ignor those that might affect you, and what you do with horses!!!
I
How many, so rigid on flexing, think nothing of stalling their horse most of the time????Yes, off topic, but then is most of this thread also.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I wish I could take the credit for this, sadly not my work, but I thought it quite apt...


poster 1- my horse this, my horse that that
poster 2- no she didn't, you could not have
poster 1- you don't know, quote "_____" and quote "____", horse vision
poster 2- Western pleasure, English, trained, curb bad
poster1- inexpensive horses, one handed riding, read books, read what Cherie said
poster 2-no Cherie said this, you did not, could not, bad training
poster 3- do not be rude, we are not idiots, reining flexion, classical dressage training
poster 2- did you ever, I have!
poster 4- is the like button working?
jaydee- this is a show jumping video
poster 2 - jaydee stop being so rational.
poster 3- comparing jumping dressage, hunter jumper
poster 5- did someone say idiot?
poster 1 - one rein stop, two rein stop, pulley rein, one of them is never necessary, do not bother
poster 2- bolting, body control, mind control, rain and wind should not matter to trained horse
poster 6- Parelli
poster 7- wrong thread!
poster 1- I am no judge (but I will do it anyway)


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> If you wish to take everything Dr Deb Bennett says as gospel , here is some more info. I actually took in quite a few of her talks, when she came up tot he Annual horse breeder and owners conference.
> Those riding TBs and drafts should take note, if they wish to follow her by the letter!
> According to the great Dr Deb Bennett, who by the way, is paleontologist, an not a vet, there are only three main classifications of horses,and we err right at the point when we interchange them as to use.
> 
> ...


huhh??? what ?? I swear, I am totally lost as to how the last statement , about stalling horses, has ANYTHING to do with a discussion on flexions.

it is a bit like a playground tit for tat saying.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Golden Horse said:


> I wish I could take the credit for this, sadly not my work, but I thought it quite apt...
> 
> 
> poster 1- my horse this, my horse that that
> ...



well, then to whom do you credit this ?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

It's easy to go down rabbit trails, but then again the forum is for talking about and learning about all things regarding horses. So I enjoy it when someone brings up something else to think about, whether it's correctly on the current topic or not. 

You might think the topic is just weaving around but then someone like Partita brings up something new in a post that I hadn't thought about in quite that way, and that's why _I'm_ here - to further my horse education. So thanks for that information on the shape of the neck vertebrae. 
Besides, sometimes if you bring something up and someone refutes it, you actually learn something different that changes your mind altogether. 

I try not to accept or reject everything anyone says, vet or doctor or not. But I do appreciate many of Deb Bennett's articles in Equus magazine, especially about horse genetics and also the one about Secretariat and how he moved was extremely interesting. To naturally always line up the hind end directly behind the line of travel at those speeds and on curves...likely something you could never teach a horse to do. Somehow he knew if his motor was always in line it would make him faster.








My husband took this picture of Hickstead at the WEG in 2010 when he won best horse in the jump off. I remember noticing how you could see a big channel through his legs when he was going toward you or away, his legs were lined up perfectly.








Anyway, it makes me think about how flexion at high levels might not be as important as athleticism and the ability to have complete straightness.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> LOOk, this thread is getting ridiculous , with CA,s flexing used in reining mixed up with the one rein stop, or even the fact that body control, as per those vidoes by Larry Trocha, just using body control, so that you use judgment, as to when to use the one rein stop, as Cheri described-complete stop, or just taking the head away, as shown by Larry Trocha
> So, here we are discussing the one -rein stop, and not the rountine flexing done by CA, okay THat does not mean you drill ahorse with it over and over again. I just get on and ride, and that includes no lunging, even when a horse has stood tied all night, in the mounatins, with wolves howling and elk bugling, then riidng out before dawn, with acold wind blowing out of those mountain draws, and immediately on trails where there is no room for error-so I think I have ridden horses in more serious trial rides and all kinds of stuff, then you are talking about!
> Horseluvr, if you used a one rein stop, at a gallop, on a horse never taught it, that was not exactly smart. The idea, is to use the one rein stop, or taking the head away' BEFORE the horse gets in a full out gallop
> I hope never to need to use the pully rein, being on a horse in a full out bolt!The idea is to never get to that point!
> ...



We agree on more than I have the chance to pint out, . . . But,

It's a shame that with all the experience you have to offer, (experience you are very privileged to have and beyond the reach of most of us), that you cannot respond to others without trying to make them feel lesser or smaller for not having this opportunity .


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I've already tried to say that I use simple flexion exercises and I don't have a problem with them, they can be useful for various reasons - since this thread was sparked by the type of flexion CA incorporates into his training I have also said that I don't consider that sort of extreme prolonged sort of hyperflexion to be beneficial
I do consider it essential that a horse responds correctly to rein pressure and no horse should be allowed out of a safe enclosed area until it does but you don't need to use hyperflexion to teach that
I've also tried to say that I have no problem with training a horse to do a 1 rein stop and using one if the situation called for it. It does worry me that some people think the method will work in all situations - it won't. In the UK you'd likely get a blank look from most riders when you said '1 rein stop' because its not a common name for what we'd just describe as bringing the horses head around and/or spinning it to defuse a situation. Its a method that's been in use for many many years on horses that 'nap' - that barn sour attitude when they plant themselves and refuse to move other than to go home at high speed
This video shows a horse that suddenly decided there was a monster ahead. She was able to prevent a full rear and a bolt by getting his head around but as you can see he was so determined to remove himself, even with his head in that position he could still run sideways away from the monster rather than spin around in a circle. He goes off shot at the point that she manages to recover him and push him on in the direction she wanted him to go


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

What is truly frightening to a horse can vary. It does not require grizzlies. There was one time when Trooper froze. Solid. Trooper, who had uncounted miles put on him in the deserts and mountains of Utah. Didn't bolt. Didn't spin.

Just did not move. Not a single foot. Not an inch. Not for 20 minutes. And it was not a bear.

It was a trampoline. Our neighbors had bought one, and their kids were using it, jumping high up in the air and squealing with pleasure. There was also a fence. So all Trooper could see was kids being thrown high into the air, again and again, squealing with...pain! There was obviously a huge monster, just over the fence, tearing kids apart.

I dismounted. He would not lead away. I don't think he even knew I was there. After 20 minutes where he didn't move a hoof an inch, he snorted, turned and looked at me...and he was back. I just led him away, removed the saddle and put him back in the corral.

The one time I came off a horse was Mia. What had she bolted from? Not a bear. A neighbor was in his garage, working on a two stroke engine. I guess he got it fixed, because he started it up, in the garage, and ran it up high - with the standard, two-stroke engine squeal, high and LOUD. And Mia bolted. I did get her stopped, but tried to dismount before her mind was back and I paid the price for it.

Bandit hates garbage cans. He'll go past 15 or 20 without noticing any of them, then freak over #21. My guess is that he is responding to smell. Horses don't have great vision, but they have a great sense of smell. He started to race away once at a weed-whacker firing up, but stopped in about 3 leaps (at my request) and then accepted turning around and going past the place.

I could go on, but people get upset when I cite experience and when I cite other riders and when I cite...anything. But someone can be a new rider, having ridden a year or less, and experienced bolts, spins and horses who want to get the heck out of Dodge City. Their experience remains valid, even if they haven't spent 40 years riding.

If someone has been able to maintain control using a ORS, fine. That is valid. But if others have been able to control their horse without a ORS...that is also valid. And it means there is more than one way to deal with the challenge.

The fact that millions of horses and riders have lived their lives out without doing deep flexing and one rein stops means it is possible. And safe.

This discussion all started on another thread with a poster saying they disliked how Clinton Anderson rides a horse. I dislike it as well. Rollkur, effective or not, is not pretty to look at. I accept that a very skilled rider may be able to use it to good effect. I do not accept the idea that all riders need to do it, or that it is a requirement to have a responsive, agile horse. And as best I can tell, CA teaches it as a prerequisite for trail riding any horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

```

```



tinyliny said:


> huhh??? what ?? I swear, I am totally lost as to how the last statement , about stalling horses, has ANYTHING to do with a discussion on flexions.
> 
> it is a bit like a playground tit for tat saying.



Nor does a dressage horse,acting up at the Olympics, nor does the one rein stop, for that matter


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

First, the one rein stop, put on ahorse has nothing to do with routine flexing
If you are going to compare lateral to extreme vertical flexing, Rollkur, even seen being done by some pretty well known dressage riders, then lateral flexing is not in the same ballpark.
So, perhaps keeping the topics clearer, the one rein stop belongs in a separate thread, on control a, bolt, or buck, ect, and compare to when you use it, when you use body control, when you use keeping foreward, as the two are completely different (lateral flexing, using as part of training, like Rolkur, and an ability to take the head away, as one method, to control a horse)
You then also can decide the degree that you use either, from zero, to CA's program, to that of the other reining trainer I posted, **** Pieper, who only uses it to a degree, while riding and not at the standstill
No, first, take the one rein stop out of the flexing thread, for clarification. Those of us that do teach our horses to accept'respond, to having their head taken away, do not use it regularily, do not flex horses each time we ride them, do not fail to use other methods and do not fail to put proper correct training on a horse, that is all about correct body aleignment, as the last thing you want, is a horse that has had the one rein used so much to stop, that he automatically stops that way
In the last 5 years, I can think of only one time that I used the one rein stop, and that was when Charlie was run into by that horse in the hitching ring and raked with that horse's rider's spur, so wheeled and took three huge bucking leaps across the arena. I got her stopped on the third buck, by both the ingrained 'whoa, and by taking her head away.At my age, I'm not about to ride um and spur them out!
I never get on to ride, and spend time flexing a horse, esp a broke one, but then neither do i bother to lunge them

BSMS, note, I mentioned other ways besides the one rein stop, that you use, depending on the situation. It was your post where you decided it was NEVER needed, nor should be taught to a horse, that started the entire debate going, plus you confusing the one rein stop with lateral flexing

I mentioned the pully rein, which I have never needed to try out, as I hope never to be on a horse again, as when I was a kid, and that horse bolted. I did not know the horse was a bolter, having borrowed her from a neighbour, who happened to live across the highway from us. I also did not know how to stop a bolting horse, so that left me two quick options to consider. Let her continue to bolt , and hope no traffic was on that highway, or try to make the neighbour';s laneway at full gallop.
I chose the latter, hit a tree, with luckily my one shoulder and knee suffering the brunt of that sudden collision, but enough to also give me a concussion
Why then, would I not add the one rein stop, to my tools, for just 'in case', and that is why many people that focus on teaching trail riidng safety for the average horse and rider, advocate the one rein stop, or just taking the head away, as Larry does, to add to that tool box. It is not the only tool.
Having a broke horse, with a sensible mind, already ensures that the likelihood of needing the one rein stop, is diminished, as most well broke horses do not try to leave the country, after a spook, but come back to you
I have also mentioned forward, counter flex and other techniques. It is not like I just put a one rein stop on that horse and hope that sees me through any possible scenrio. You also earn trust and leadership, and thus your horse learns he does not need to stare at everything himself, get ready for flight, but trusts that if his leader indicates an object is okay, he then accepts that fact. Now, we are off again , far as the topic of this thread


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

And i, Jaydee, have also said that I use many things besides the one rein stop, depending on the situation, that I don't use flexing like CA, but have an open mind, thus also posted the degree that other reiners use it, including the one of **** Pieper, a well known reiner, who says he uses it only while moving, to some degree, and hates seeing a horse flexed while standing still
I just stated that used correctly, along with body control, lateral flexing does not cause ahorse to learn to rubber neck, and that horses can rubber neck, never ever having been flexed, simply because they have no shoulder control.
I stated I was out with the 'jury', until there is more opinion out there, by people in the reining industry, whether the degree that CA uses it, approaches the same level that caused an out cry against Rolkur
Yet, somehow I seemed to be classified as someone that uses only the one rein stop, in all situations, where I need to get control of my horse, spend every time I ride flexing a horse, which is completely un true, or that I am some discipline Of CA,also not true.
Many wrong assumptions were made, with BSMS posting CA showing the one rein stop, trail riding, as being one and the same, as that flexing he is using on TItan
Body control, esp before a full out bolt, is more effective then relying on a bit, or any other head gear, and I stand by that principle, so I remain firm that any horse should be taught to give his head, as just ONE tool, to make trail riding safer. 
Yes, I rode for years, without having that tool, and I also still ride without a helmet most times, as I can go in the same rational as BSMS, that many riders have ridden for years without a helmet, and did just fine, BUT, where I differ, I then don't try to use that as evidence that riding with a helmet, might not be useful. Ditto for the one rein stop!
So, don't feel bad, you are not the only one being mis understood, with people just taking what they wish out of your posts!


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Having a broke horse, with a sensible mind, already ensures that the likelihood of needing the one rein stop, is diminished, as most well broke horses do not try to leave the country, after a spook, but come back to you
> I have also mentioned forward, counter flex and other techniques. It is not like I just put a one rein stop on that horse and hope that sees me through any possible scenrio. You also earn trust and leadership, and thus your horse learns he does not need to stare at everything himself, get ready for flight, but trusts that if his leader indicates an object is okay, he then accepts that fact. Now, we are off again , far as the topic of this thread



THIS.

This is all anyone has been preaching this entire time, but nobody bothers to acknowledge it, because they so badly don't want to listen to anything we have to say.

I've been on this forum for seven years, constantly, and it has always been this way. I suppose there is no reason for me to be surprised, with the good comes the bad and that makes for debate, though for me this has been the most ridiculous back and forth debate I have seen on here in a long time.

I still can find no one who can dispute or give me a good enough reason NOT to do any of this. You are preaching about rollkur, but provide me no actual evidence that is causes any harm to the horse in any way. You are simply eyeballing it as someone who has never done it before, and saying it's terrible.

As for the one rein stop, same thing - No one can tell me why it's a totally bad thing to teach besides "Oh, precious might blow her shoulders out!" Which we have addressed dozens of times in that general way of "A horse who is trained will not do that."

I don't know about you, but I value the life of myself and my horse over all else. I will do anything to minimize the risk of getting hurt. So I'm going to go sit in my arena with my nice broke horses and bend them around in a few extra circles today I think.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The hyperflexion technique that CA is using (to create better bending muscles in the horse I think he says) is no different to the theory and practice behind Rolkurr and how did the whole use of Rolkurr in training end?
Not well.
Oh - and what CA is doing is nothing new


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

:gallop:I already mentioned that I am 'on fence' , far as CA and to the extent he uses it. 
Waiting for more opinions from fellow reiners.
I just pointed out some incorrect assumptions, along with the fact that it does not create a horse that rubber necks, if that horse is also tuaght body control
I think I have posted in the past, enough times about that flexing at a standstill, done by many NH followers, without also adding things like body control, and suppling exercises that involve all body parts, while riding
I do not see that horse in Titan,in the same stressed frame, then some pictures of the use of Rollkur, so to equate the two, could well not be fair
If it truly is so flawed, then CA will not be able to ride a reining pattern, with that horse staying correct and guiding evenly between the reins, thus I think for people outside of that discipline, to make judgement calls, based on their style of riding, and level of riding, is not exactly fair
The horse is not wringing his tail, does not have that 'rabbit' look in his eyes, does not have his mouth tied shut with a tight cavasson , teeth clenched, mouth tense,as I have seen in some Rollkur pictures, so I am not making a firm judgement either way.
I have never used it like that, or to that extent, but then I only did reining at a more regional level

Sorry, I just don't see a horse that stressed, not given release, as in these Rollkur pictures. Not saying I agree totally, as to what CA is doing, but I am also not jumping on him,without further info from people actually in the reining industry, stating point blank that he is over using it. The spur stop was spoken out against by judges and people within the actual ,pleasure horse industry, and it is within any discipline where true insight comes from within, not without

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Hors...&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiMjIza8PrM


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Tiny, I in no way am trying to make anyone feel lesser or smaller because they can't ride where I do. I am merely pointing out, to state you never need the one rein stop (which really has nothing to do with this post ), can well be in part due to where you ride, and that they are times having a one rein stop, or being able to take a horse's head away can literally save your 'bacon'
So, for someone just to state it has no application, a horse never needs it, can be purely based on the fact that they have not ridden enough green horses out, or have ridden where indeed you need some body control advantage over a horse, beyond a bit and ingrained training
Sure, horses can spook at anything, including that engine BSMS mentioned, BUT they will realize that the engine is a-not coming at them, and that the engine is not truly a predator
No amount of training, is going to prevent a horse being stung from hornets from bolting or bucking, BUT the one rein stop, just might buy you enough time to get off
I ride without a helmet 99% of the time. I should ride with one, but it is my personal decision to take that risk. I do not recommend others to do so
Thus, it can be purely a personal decision to decide you don't need a one rein stop on your horse, and that is fine.What is not fine, is when many people that make a business of trail riding, teaching people to stay safe trail riding, include the one rein stop, and then for someone to decide that is bad general trail riding info!
You do see the difference, I hope, and why I was forced to give examples where indeed, the one rein stop, or being able to take the head away might just save you from serious injury.
The entire one rein stop, even got on this thread, where it does not even belong, because of the poster, who gave that one rein stop, by CA, versus sticking to the latteral flexion, undertsanding the difference and reasons for using either of the two


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> well, then to whom do you credit this ?


You didn't even 'like' the post. Why do you want to know, would something change?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

updownrider said:


> You didn't even 'like' the post. Why do you want to know, would something change?



oh, ok. I'll go back and like it.

just wondering where such creative genius came from.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> ... the use of neck flexions in training...


Growing up, I never even heard of neck flexions. 

1) First experience was the One Rein Stop. The "softness" was simply and purely an act of submission. Nothing to do with being soft or pliant. The most effective ORS, truly, is when the horse topples over with you. That's STOP for you. (Happened once with me, and I never had a rushing problem again---at that place in the arena.)

2) Next was rollkur-type submissions, that were supposed to affect muscles etc. This came from German-trained clinicians, who regularly rode rather magnificent horses. I understand it began when dressage horses got "too big" and strong for their riders.

3) On the Western front, "softening" also meant submission, but to an extreme degree. If it meant bloodying the mouth, so be it. The rider was/is expected to "control all" as if the horse doesn't already know how to move. Flexing itself wasn't a goal, but a totally subdued horse with his head hanging to the ground must've looked good.

4) More recently, at a Western riding clinic, a clinician (with dressage training herself) showed how to flex a horse in a way which, she said, would actually "raise the withers" and strengthen them, to encourage more self-carriage (the horse in question was a little heavy on the forehand.) She said she starts riding every horse with this exercise. 

I think we've been convinced that flexing is good, but we don't know why. If my horse braces against the bit, I will stop and remind her she's supposed to yield. I don't think of it as flexing, though it looks like it.

Same with if she drops her shoulder too much (a habit from previous lameness): I will remind her that she CAN put weight on the other side.

I sometimes do flexing because I've been to a clinic, and I always try things I hear about at clinics  but otherwise, I don't see much value in flexing under normal conditions.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Beling, this is beginning to sound like a broken record, with people really not reading things already posted
Anyone that tries a one rein stop, without first having taught that horse at all gaits, before trying it at speed, in an emergency situation,, is sure as hell going to flip that horse over. Tools are only correct, when used correctly!
Any trainer, regardless of discipline that bloodies a horse's mouth, is not a trainer. It is no secret that any idiot can place the word 'trainer' behind his name, and that type of trainer, who is abusive to a horse, can be found in any discipline, BUT, a horse person, soon recognizes the good trainers from the poor ones-so don't stick a lable on a trainer, as to western or English, as there are only good trainers and horsemen, and poor trainers and horsemen
Also, what you consider light, is miles away from what is demanded of an upper performance horse., where some of that flexing, to a degree the trainer is comfortable with, along with teaching body control, riding with more legs then hands, ect, ect, is just another tool, to be used correctly, and not abused
Good western trainers preserve the mouth, keeping that horse light, and if that trainer truly bloodied a horse;s mouth, rode with that kind on contact, versus mainly off of seat and legs, well, I don't know where you found him, or her, but rest assured they cannot train those horses out of a wet paper bag!
If you also read posts by myself, or Sorrelhorse,or some others you will grasp the kind of lightness and body control that we put on a horse. Can you show your horse in a complicated pattern, changing leads, doing lope overs, tight trail course, all riding one handed, and on a loose rein. Stop from speed completely off of seat and legs? Not that flexing is needed to achieve those things, but to assume anyone that does s use some flexing, correctly, then somehow is too unskilled to produce a very light horse, able to be ridden off of seat and legs alone, is very ignorant, as is the thought that if you have a one rein stop on that horse, it mean that is the way you stop that horse routinely, or even that you need it riding out, as a broke horse will seldom spook and then try to leave the country. However, a green colt might, or a horse that truly faces something that is not a still object, but perhaps a moose coming towards them, and then being able to take the head away, is sure as heck going to up your chances of not having a wreak!Might never need it, same as air bags, but why not have it, as just another tool?
That flexing is used in addition, to either a very limited amount, as I never flex a horse after that horse is beyond green. I do body suppling exercises, while riding. My horse just has the body control, that SHOULD i ever need to take the head away, I can do so, versus winding up like you did, or some movie stunt man, when a horse not taught body control, suddenly has his head jerked to one side at speed-yup, you are going to go down!
Again, read all the posts, where it might be used, to what degree, and at what level of riding, then make comment, as to how some lateral flexing, along with body control, will not help you turn a cow on the fence, in working cowhorse, or help keep a reiner from bracing into the run down for a sliding stop


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> If you also read posts by myself, or Sorrelhorse,or some others you will grasp the kind of lightness and body control that we put on a horse. Can you show your horse in a complicated pattern, changing leads, doing lope overs, tight trail course, all riding one handed, and on a loose rein. Stop from speed completely off of seat and legs? *Not that flexing is needed to achieve those things..*.


I think this was part of Tinyliny's original question: is flexion needed to achieve lightness or not? What is the purpose and is it helpful or harmful? Here you are saying flexion is not needed to achieve those things. I agree. In the right hands, some flexing or giving to the bit exercises are a good tool. In the wrong hands, they create rubber necking. And I feel it is totally unnecessary to pull a horse's head all the way around to your knee over and over to teach the concept.

Interestingly, I was reading Horse & Rider magazine tonight and Al Dunning was talking about flexion in the context of advocating the use of draw reins. The article stated they would help a trainer achieve collection. Seriously. So even if you can turn out top horses, and are a big name trainer, it doesn't mean you are teaching correct concepts. 



Smilie said:


> ...if you have a one rein stop on that horse, it mean that is the way you stop that horse routinely, or even that you need it riding out, as a broke horse will seldom spook and then try to leave the country. However, a green colt might, or a horse that truly faces something that is not a still object, but perhaps a moose coming towards them, and then being able to take the head away, is sure as heck going to up your chances of not having a wreak!Might never need it, same as air bags, but why not have it, as just another tool?


I say have it as a tool, but think of it as just a tool and not a fail safe that is appropriate for all panicking horses in all situations. Something to consider here is that both you and Sorrelhorse talk about the body control you have trained into a horse and also that you choose certain types of horses to work with. You say not to use the one rein stop with a horse that has not been trained to do it. I agree, and would add that the situation and the horse's temperament should be considered before it is attempted also. 
And that is my personal concern with the one rein stop. It is sold as an emergency stop for all horses in all situations. This is based on many, many conversations with horse people I know. Many of these people do not ride horses they have trained themselves or have put all kinds of body control into. For them, to consider the one rein stop the "emergency stop" is something that I have seen turn out unsafely. 

I just heard another story about the "emergency stop" yesterday. A woman bought a horse, had ridden the horse a few weeks when the horse panicked severely in an arena. She applied the emergency stop, and the horse did stop. Then the horse exploded, flying backwards into a metal fence panel, flipping backwards over the top of it and landing on the rider but thankfully only on her leg. It is stories like these that make me advocate teaching riders not to think of _stopping_ horses that are panicking, but rather to think of them as a boiling pot they need to keep lifting the lid off and letting some steam out while controlling the direction and speed of the motion. If the steam builds too high the pot may boil over. I believe good horsemen understand that horses are claustrophobic creatures and trapping them is about as safe as trapping a raccoon in a corner and hoping they won't attack.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"Can you show your horse in a complicated pattern, changing leads, doing lope overs, tight trail course, all riding one handed, and on a loose rein. Stop from speed completely off of seat and legs? *Not that flexing is needed to achieve those things..*."

I cannot. But then, I don't ever try to do complicated patterns, since they have no relevance to me. That is meant to show off what the human can do versus what the horse can learn. It is like a sidepass. My horses cannot do it in an arena. But when I've needed them to scoot sideways, they seem to figure it out - because in the real world, a horse CAN figure things out, to the extent they have been given the experience.

However, more to the point, a great many people have trained their horses to do those things with mild contact and done so without deep flexing. Contact is not a bad thing. And light contact seems highly preferable to me to riding like this:








​ 
I'd much rather see two hands and contact that watch that! But of course, CA is training that horse to win in an artificial setting, and that is fine, except he teaches doing that for ALL riding by ALL riders. Watching the Titan Episode 2 video, Titan will swing his head back and forth to CA's boot while CA is just sitting there. He's obviously decided that is just what humans like a horse to do. And CA talks about doing that at the beginning of every ride, while marketing the videos to everyone and not just those interested in winning a reining competition. 

Although...if that is what it takes to win at reining, maybe reining has some problems?

However, to his credit, he also talks about Titan's breeding. How he is a 'cold' horse. IIRC, he says in one spot that Titan isn't too intelligent. He is also a lazy horse, who wants to stop. And when you watch CA riding, he is using the spur all the time. As he points out, when he stops, Titan stops moving - and he says that will become the basis for a great stop in competition.

He also discusses the bloodlines, and how some bloodlines are heavier in the mouth, etc. I think part of what gottatrot is pointing out is that what works well for one horse can be terrible when used on another horse, depending on...their breeding, even if it is the unplanned breeding of a BLM mustang. Now add in the bad training done by previous owners - and a horse like my BLM mustang has had at least 6 previous owners and arrived very lesson sour and arena sour - and one needs to adjust based off the horse's personality, breeding, conformation, previous experience...and the rider. Because as I've pointed out before, some riders can use a dominant style successfully, and others cannot. I'm one of those who cannot.

Nor is there anything wrong with contact for daily riding. Bandit LIKES contact at times. I bounce back and forth between riding him bitless and riding him with a bit. In the desert, he is probably happier bitless. In an arena, he is about 50:50. Going down a paved road, surrounded by human things making strange smells and sounds...he likes contact. Not constant, perhaps, but he LIKES me getting in his mouth and telling him we're facing an unknown TOGETHER. 

I don't jump. At first, it seemed odd that jumpers would want contact. After all, wouldn't it be easier for the horse to have total freedom? But a horse going over jumps can get pretty excited about it, just as Bandit can get pretty excited about 'human stuff'. Mightn't a jumper use constant contact to keep the horse's brain connected with them? Done wrong, that can lead to a hard mouth. Done right, it keeps the horse focused and connected.

I ride with one hand much of the time now. But my idea of riding with one hand has more to do with this than it does "_a complicated pattern, changing leads, doing lope overs, tight trail course, all riding one handed, and on a loose rein_":








​ 
I have no interest in telling Clinton Anderson how to train a winning reiner. I know nothing about it. Watching CA, I have no desire to learn, either. But the first post on this thread suggests:

"_It does not encourage lightness in front, does not raise the base of the neck, and often just trains the horse to tilt his head to avoid the contact, twist out of it. Most dressage trainers do not want this sort of training to happen because they see it as creating a rubber necked horse , who has less connection between front and hind, between bit and impulsion. it can also build in a bad habit of going behind the bit all the time, even on feather light contact...I hope that any and all will feel free to share what they were taught, what they have since learned works for them._.."

One can never separate "good riding" from "good for what?" When the artificiality of high level competition separates it from the world where 99% of riders live, then the techniques needed to win should include a disclaimer: "Don't try this at home!" And I suspect, over time, reining will correct away from its current style. Having a horse stare at its front hooves is just not very admirable...even on a loose rein.


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## Emoore (Sep 14, 2015)

I've been following this thread. Is it a discussion of flexion, or is it a discussion of flexion as it relates to the sport of reining?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You missed part of what CA was saying, concerning Titan. You want a horse, working any pattern, to put out 100% , but then also come back to you, and not get hot and stay on the muscle.You could not run a reining a pattern , on a horse, galloping him all out into a sliding stop, or a fast circle, and have that horse become strong, staying that way, and have a correct stop, or come down to a slow circle, all on a loose rein
Far as CA using that flexing, it is an exercise and not the way that horse is ridden, and I already commented that I'm on the line, far as deciding whether he is over using it.
I can also catch a moment in time, in most disciplines, where a horse is over flexed, in a moment of time, as seen in that one jumper, in the rollkur pictures, but don't assume that the horse is ridden that way, or he would not be able to do what he does.
CA uses that flexing, not riding one handed that way, as the end target, but to have the horse soft enough to do so in all maneuvers eventually.I already mentioned that I don't use it to that extent, or even close, but do not see it as being in the same league as rollkur.

Trottin, your example is no doubt on a horse never taught the one rein stop, being poorly trained, then that new owner applying it on a horse, who never having had his head taken away, panics
Perhaps the one rein stop is not applicable to some "hot breeds', but that doe snot mean they would not beneifit from some basic demonstration that indeed they can be shut down when needed. That Olympic horse is one example, not saying he should have been schooled there, but to get in the mind set that some horses are so athletic, high strung, that you can't expect otherwise then for them to take charge when anything out of the ordinary occurs, is also not true
IN fact, not that I aM A parelli disciple, but he first was introduced to his wife, when she could not manage her Warmblood. Chris Irwin also goes into how he reformed a well bred Warmblood , that his owners and dressage trainers could not manage. he made that horse into a good one, that he sold for good money, so do not assume that there are breeds of horses, that just fall out of the field of being helped by some basic training that is not just focused on advanced maneuvers, so the horse is treated like some kind of diva, that can only be expected to focus on the rider, when all conditions are just so.
I can post a picture of a colt starting video, where that colt, after about 4 lessons in the roundpen, is ridden, for the very first time, in a large arena, with plenty of noise, a huge crowd, in a halter at all gaits, having a flag held and a bill whipped cracked off of them. Yes, their start was rushed, but the idea of a horse, blowing because there are some extra distractions, and ahorse with lots of riding and training, doe snot wash with me
In fact, there is alittle inside joke, among cowhorse people, during the Mane Event. Two huge arenas are used for demos, with one often western and the other English.
The English clinician often asks that no extra noise be made, as it might upset the horses

before someone jumps on the fact that this video has nothing to do with flexion per say, I think it shows that the idea of a horse not performing with outside distractions, is not a horse I want to ride,no matter what level he can perform at, in his comfort zone


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Emoore said:


> I've been following this thread. Is it a discussion of flexion, or is it a discussion of flexion as it relates to the sport of reining?


 This thread is a spin off from an English Riding thread where CA's Titan video showing him using extreme hyperflexion was put up as a suggestion to the OP
With that in mind plus the fact that flexion in various degrees is used in Western and English/Euro riding the subject should be open to both disciplines


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

After seeing many quarter horses here and in the UK I would say that the most of them would struggle to get 'hyped' if you lit a stick of dynamite underneath them and comparing them to the type of WB that's been purpose bred to be 'hot' is unfair at best
Perhaps instead of asking if members have ridden a western pattern those that are doing that should go and ride a fit WB in a Grand prix dressage test and see how that works for them


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

jaydee said:


> After seeing many quarter horses here and in the UK I would say that the most of them would struggle to get 'hyped' if you lit a stick of dynamite underneath them and comparing them to the type of WB that's been purpose bred to be 'hot' is unfair at best
> Perhaps instead of asking if members have ridden a western pattern those that are doing that should go and ride a fit WB in a Grand prix dressage test and see how that works for them


I like this post so much, I have to post it again.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

jaydee said:


> After seeing many quarter horses here and in the UK I would say that the most of them would struggle to get 'hyped' if you lit a stick of dynamite underneath them and comparing them to the type of WB that's been purpose bred to be 'hot' is unfair at best
> Perhaps instead of asking if members have ridden a western pattern those that are doing that should go and ride a fit WB in a Grand prix dressage test and see how that works for them


No kidding. I was going to give some input on this thread way back when it started, but then it turned into some reining ecstasy dance. Apparently reining is the pinnacle of horsemanship.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> That Olympic horse is one example, not saying he should have been schooled there, but to get in the mind set that some horses are so athletic, high strung, that you can't expect otherwise then for them to take charge when anything out of the ordinary occurs, is also not true
> IN fact, not that I aM A parelli disciple, but he first was introduced to his wife, when she could not manage her Warmblood. Chris Irwin also goes into how he reformed a well bred Warmblood , that his owners and dressage trainers could not manage. He made that horse into a good one, that he sold for good money, so do not assume that there are breeds of horses, that just fall out of the field of being helped by some basic training that is not just focused on advanced maneuvers, so the horse is treated like some kind of diva, that can only be expected to focus on the rider, when all conditions are just so.
> I can post a picture of a colt starting video, where that colt, after about 4 lessons in the roundpen, is ridden, for the very first time, in a large arena, with plenty of noise, a huge crowd, in a halter at all gaits, having a flag held and a bill whipped cracked off of them. Yes, their start was rushed, but the idea of a horse, blowing because there are some extra distractions, and ahorse with lots of riding and training, doe snot wash with me


This would be an interesting thread...training versus temperament and how much they affect each other. 
I can see we would not agree, but I am not sure how many types of temperaments you have been exposed to and tried to train yourself.
If I were only going by my own experience, I would have to say I am not sure what is possible, since perhaps my training is what is at fault for not achieving a bomb proof horse with a hot, explosive temperament. To me, either the horse is the bomb or they become bomb proof. But you can't have a bomb proof bomb. :icon_rolleyes:

I have known many good trainers and have not seen one that successfully trained an explosive horse to have the ability to be perfectly calm and controlled in all situations. Or to be "shut down." 
Young horses versus experienced horses is less important than the temperament, in my experience. The trainers I've known find a situation for the hotter horses where their temperament is acceptable. 

It's not about the horse being a diva or spoiling the horse. I'm sure everyone would want a horse that could be high energy when asked and calm down when asked. I've ridden horses you could ask to gallop and jump a crazy course and within twenty seconds of stopping they'd be completely calm. I've also ridden horses you trotted for a few seconds and then spent fifteen minutes calming back down. 

I myself have started horses that could have been ridden in a parade two weeks after beginning under saddle. I saw a mustang who on his third ride off the BLM range went down to the beach and a helicopter landed next to him, he was unflappable. The trainer of course put it on video and credited it to his wonderful training. I saw him pass on three horses that were too hot, barely even tried to train them before giving up. 

I was on a three year old several years ago that I started and was still very green when we took her to the beach for the first time. I was with a group of experienced riders and we were prepared for her reaction as we went over the top of the dune where she would see the Pacific for the first time. We had her surrounded with calm, experienced horses, all of which had either frozen, skittered around or tried to run back when they'd seen the ocean for their first time. This filly walked calmly over the top of the dune and kept walking, didn't even look at the ocean. It didn't even register on her radar, what was intensely frightening to even well seasoned horses the first time. I was out with the same horse a few rides later going down the road when some hidden hunters in the bushes popped up and began firing guns away from us, only a couple hundred feet away. She only startled, and then calmed right down even though they kept firing. 

It is wrong to assume that horses that are hot or reactive have not had tons of training and miles put into them. Some endurance horses are still spooky after being ridden thousands of miles through all kinds of trails away from their homes. My experience is that temperament cannot be trained out of a horse, although reactions can be improved upon by exposing the horse to many things.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Emoore said:


> I've been following this thread. Is it a discussion of flexion, or is it a discussion of flexion as it relates to the sport of reining?


It's meant to be a discussion on whether there is or is not a correct way to flex a horse, and how folks do or do not use, not limited just to reining.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> After seeing many quarter horses here and in the UK I would say that the most of them would struggle to get 'hyped' if you lit a stick of dynamite underneath them and comparing them to the type of WB that's been purpose bred to be 'hot' is unfair at best
> Perhaps instead of asking if members have ridden a western pattern those that are doing that should go and ride a fit WB in a Grand prix dressage test and see how that works for them



First, that question arose out of the idea that reining or working cowhorse does not require perhaps a certain degree of that lateral flexion, so the horse CAN BE RIDDEN NOT AS A GRANDE PRIX DRESSAGE HORSE< BUT AS A WORKING COWHORSE OR REINER< AT UPPER END
I am not here trying to tell dressage people how to train their horse, so why do people that have never taken a cow down the fence, Circled a cow at speed, ridden a reiner, then feel so self righteous at bashing training techniques in a discipline they do not ride ???
Try riding a catty cutting horse, or a really feely working cowhorse, and see where that firecracker gets you, Jaydee! 
There can be some very hot stock horses, esp those appendex bred, working cowhorse and cutting bred
I am not saying that any western rider could just get on and ride a Grande Prix horse, just that so many here are deciding what it takes to produce atop reiner, or working cowhorse,in order to show that horse one handed and on a loose rein, having never done so. 
That was my point.
Then, somehow the one rein stop got into the whole soup, when it has nothing to so with flexion exercises per say, but belongs in perhaps a thread on preventing a spook or bolt, where other methods are also used, depending on circumstances


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

maybe the Qh's in the UK are a more sedate bunch? brought in particularly for that reason? or , just not trained to be quick?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

ApuetsoT said:


> No kidding. I was going to give some input on this thread way back when it started, but then it turned into some reining circle jerk. Apparently reining is the pinnacle of horsemanship.


Reading comprehension, should be a requirement!

No, reining is not the ultimate in horsemanship, and that was never the intended message. What was the intended message, is that perhaps requirements in reining and working cowhorse, also require different training techniques, then that used to train a horse that is always ridden two handed, with contact, and never asked to work a cow
Lets face it, the entire thread started, with the Videos posted on CA and Titan, and let's not pretend otherwise. 
Then, it was concluded, without any evidence , that the flexion CA is using(lateral , and not also with the constant hyper vertical flexion, used by some in Dressage , is automatically the same, far as any detrimental effects
Yes, yes, temperaments come into play, along with training, and why temperament, as to breed was ever even brought up in a thread on flexion, is beyond me

Then, because one poster, just happened to find the one rein stop, for trail riding, being used by CA, that flexion that he uses, perhaps over done, in his reining training, got equated with the one rein stop

In fact, the entire 'jerk, application, to reining, shows the general attitude of many riding in dressage, and it is rather this segment of the population that shows disdain the opposite discipline ( western disciplines ) very often, so why does it come as a surprise when any counter attack results?
No, reining is not the ultimate form of horsemanship, as any horse well trained in upper end in their discipline shows upper level of horsemanship and training.
I just won't have it shoved down my throat that dressage is the golden standard for all disciplines!
Rollkur was used by some very well known dressage trainers, so if CA.s lateral flexion is in the same catalog, it will come to bite him in the *** in due time
In fact, why did we never have a topic on hyper flexion, using Rolkur???????


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> After seeing many quarter horses here and in the UK I would say that the most of them would struggle to get 'hyped' if you lit a stick of dynamite underneath them and comparing them to the type of WB that's been purpose bred to be 'hot' is unfair at [email protected];
> Perhaps instead of asking if members have ridden a western pattern those that are doing that should go and ride a fit WB in a Grand prix dressage test and see how that works for them



Unfair, is first of all, not reading context correctly, plus I can put you on some AQHA horses that would change your mind pretty quick, not that that has anything to do with the priced of Tea in China, or this thread!
The reason i mentioned riiding a cowhorse or reining pattern, the way a horse must be shown there, is perhaps for comprehension that it just might take a difference in training technique, and it was not meant as a comparison of who had the 'biggest------!
I'll admit right up front, no problem, that I could not ride a jumper or a grande Prix horse, but then I also don't advise how to train one.

In closing, I think this kinda fits-it was a joke, I heard once.
What is the difference between God and a Cutting horse trainer?
Answer: God doesn't consider himself a cutting horse trainer

Perhaps, there would not be such a defensive position needed, if people outside of the working cowhorse and reining industry would not so self righteously attack a training technique in a discipline they do not train or ride in, and completely ignore explanations given by people that actually have ridden horses in them, twisting them round and around, and making assumptions that just are not true


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Since the post is on flexing, going on to hyper flexion, and since what CA is using, laterally, was compared and stated to be as incorrect as Rolkur, I will have to give my opinion that I do not see the same stress, nor constant pressure, without release as in Rolkur. I did not even use an extreme example


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

those videos show all different kinds of flexing going on. In none of them does the horse seem ok. to me, they are right in there with the CA flexing of Titan; equally bad, IMO.

if winning at competition brings us to this place, where we are FORCING a horse into such unnatural and uncomfortable positions, we have strayed too far from being horsepeople.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I have been kind of following this thread, I think I may have skipped a few pages but I have the general drift.

First and foremost, I have no issue with voicing my opinion of CA and those who know me on here know how I feel about him. I don't like how CA bends the neck around to the toe, I see no point in it and I don't remember anyone I worked for(cutting/reining/cowhorse) bending a horse to that degree and if they did it certainly wasn't as often as CA does it.

I never heard them called "neck flexions" until the clinicians. You know why? Because how I was taught it was NOT just asking for the neck to bend. For example, walking in a small circle, I ask for the nose, use the inside leg to move the rib and when the colt does he can reach up with the inside hind leg when all that happens the face softens when he has his body correct. Making the rein connect to the leg. That's it, so simple.

It is the same thing I do when I get on a colt, I break him loose. I ask for the nose with my rein and bump his hip out with my stirrup from the ground. When he crosses over correctly his face softens automatically, if he can do that with out getting worried I climb on 99%, of the time he won't buck because his body isn't stuck out somewhere or stiff.

So this all leads to the ORS. Do I use it? yes and no. Depends on the situation but I do NOT use it as an emergency brake. I believe there had been a couple of horror stories told on this thread about using the ORS. The ORS is really no different than how I break my colts loose before I get on, same thing from the saddle but again I don't use it as an emergency brake. What I will use it for is a horse that is tense, stiff and to get his mind back on me when he is thinking about running off or he has ran off, I got things slowed down. When I horse runs off and you can't stop him it is because he has stiffened up and braced. Of course we've had the run offs where you have a nose on your knee and hes running through his shoulder but that doesn't mean he is soft, he's still braced up behind in the rib, if you had the rib you'd be turning a circle not running out the shoulder.

Anyhow, just my opinion on the subject. I probably repeated what has already been said as this thread is 20 pages long.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Thank you cowchick


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

COWCHICK77 said:


> I have been kind of following this thread, I think I may have skipped a few pages but I have the general drift.
> 
> First and foremost, I have no issue with voicing my opinion of CA and those who know me on here know how I feel about him. I don't like how CA bends the neck around to the toe, I see no point in it and I don't remember anyone I worked for(cutting/reining/cowhorse) bending a horse to that degree and if they did it certainly wasn't as often as CA does it.
> 
> ...



See, now that is on topic, and back to what I originally said-that I am on the fence, far as the extent CA uses that flexing, posted the opinion of **** Pieper, another reiner that states he does not flex a horse standing still, and uses it more in conjunction with riding exercises
I also said, time will tell, if that latteral fexing, done to the extent that CA ues it, will come back to bite him in the ***, same as Rolkur
Far as the ORS, i rarely if ever use it, as obviously work more on a correct hind end stop, but do believe being able to take the head away, as Larry trocha showed, is a valuable tool to have , esp riding a green horse out
Yes, breaking acolt loose, uses the ability to first walk him in a small circle, checking his head with that inside rein, and then gradually letting him out, as his tendency to perhaps buck, disipates

The one rein stop, as I also mentioned should never be used, on ahorse not taught it first , in an emergency situation, esp at speed, and that is why those horror stories happen. Tools are only good if used correctly
I have perhaps used the one rein stop, two times in the last 30 years, and it those cases, it was the best choice to avert a disaster
_a getting into a nest of ground hornets, on a two year old. That one rein stop, and ingrained whoa, gave me enough time, to step off, even as my horse was being stung. That was before knee replacements, so I sure as heck could not jump off!

Coyote jumped out from under a stack of tarped hay bales, with bales tumbling after him, as I rode by
I have never used it from speed, as the idea is to diffuse a bolt or buck before they happen. Once you are up at a gallop, I think I would prefer to use another method also, esp if I had ground and time.
:Luckily, the only horse I ever had succeed in bolting at a gallop on me, was that horse i mentioned I borrowed at a a kid, when I had no clue as to how to shut a horse down, before they bolted
I have had a horse get strong at a lope, and since I was riding in a plowed field, very easy to just let that horse run, and then push him beyond where he wanted to slow, to get the message that taking off was not so much fun!
Never advocated to use the ORS regularly, just to have it on your horse . just in case, as another tool, to be used in any particular situation, using a judgement call
So again, I am no CA discipline, am not saying the extent that he is using that flexing might not be acceptable, even in the reining community, just that there are different demands ,far as how a finished working western horse must go, and an English horse, that just might require some difference in training techniques
The very fact that Dressage had a faction using extreme vertical flexing, versus extreme lateral flexing, as CA is using, shows that there was different expectations, whether right or wrong!
And once again, as I mentioned in other posts, I am not bashing dressage horses, as I have often watched upper dressage horses at venues like Spruce meadows. My beef is with the mindset that if something is done in dressage, horses trained how they must go in that discipline, then that means all horses should be trained with only dressage principles.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

We have also been through the fact, that a horse can certainly run off, with his nose cranked in one direction, and running off in the opposite direction, as that horse lacks shoulder control, , but a horse that has never been flexed, certainly can run off at the shoulder, and flexing ahorse, also teaching body control, does not cause a horse to rubber neck.
Also, the one rein stop, has to be applied correctly, and that does snot mean just flexing the head in one direction, but sitting as Larry Trocha shows, running your hand down that rein, on the side you are applying the ORS, and having laid that foundation, first, before ever using it whit "s''t hits the fan!
Applying it either incorrectly, or on ahorse that never has had his head taken away, I would be the first to expect a disaster!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

the thing is, smilie, you seem to think that the flexing done by CA is the same as that explained by Cowchick, just done more extreme. I maintain it is not. they are NOT the same thing becuase of the critical twist in the head/neck, that negates teh connection of the rein to the hind end, and throws the hrose into a forward falling motion (only avoided by going forward quickly in tight circles)


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I only rode one QH in the UK and she belonged to a Canadian Farrier who'd brought her over with him - she was fast for sure but totally unflappable by virtue of her temperament
I rode a lot of QH's here when I was looking for a trail horse and some were fast - like the little barrel horse I tried - but mostly they needed a LOT of leg to keep them going. They were all very placid horses, hard to imagine anything startling them, but isn't what they've been bred to be like?
Anyone who's had a lot of different breeds and cross breeds of horses from birth or from when youngsters soon gets to know that a horse that's going to be bomb proof is born that way. My uncle used to buy a load of New Forest ponies every year to break and sell for kids - they were untouched but nothing scared them and we'd be riding them on the roads in next to no time.
Off track, sorry^


As to why this turned to 1 rein stop - I think its because its about the only thing you could warrant doing the CA extreme flexion for and even then its not totally correct for that - but for any riding application its got no use at all. It encourages a horse to become overbent which in turn is going to lead to a horse bolting off with its nose on its chest
Flexion exercises involve encouraging (like carrot stretches) or manually placing a horse in an exaggerated position for no more than a few seconds at a time


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

i am not sure how the ORS got into this discussion. I think it's a valuable tool to learn, and test the hrose. if they have no ability to follow the rein around, and , like Smilie said, panic if their head IS forced around, (instead of learning to step the hind quarters over) then you'd know not to try that ORS as your emergency brake. that's one reason I feel uncomfortable riding a hrose that is super stiff to the rein; not sure that I DO have any sort of emergency brake.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> i am not sure how the ORS got into this discussion.


Mia Culpa. :twisted: 

BSMS asked for a practical application of training extreme flexation like seen on the CA video.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ Except I could do a ORS with Mia, and she never learned deep flexing. I rejected the ORS with Mia because she would spin UP emotionally, not down. And after doing 6+ circles of disengaging, she would be more convinced than ever that the scary thing WAS scary, and thus she became MORE fearful over time. She was getting worse, not better, when I used a ORS to keep her from bolting.

But I could do a ORS with her, and disengage her, without ever having done any deep flexing with her.

So if it (deep flexing) worked for you....I'm glad it did. If it calms your horse, great! But I do not see the ORS as a rationale for NEEDING to do deep flexions, since Mia could perform the maneuver without having had deep flexing. So can Trooper, and he is another horse who does not know deep flexing. Cowboy? He's never needed a ORS.

And since Mia, Trooper and Bandit all learned to stop straight ahead, no spinning needed when scared...at least SOME horses can go their lives without a ORS.

My beef with CA & ORS fanatics is the argument that ALL horses need it, and that a horse is not safe without learning it. My beef with CA goes further because I find the sort of work he is doing on Titan appalling. I cannot say if it is NEEDED to win in reining, but if it is, then I figure it is time to stop reining. I think the peanut rollers and crab-cantering of WP proved beyond a doubt that human judges can love something that is simply unnatural and ugly.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I'm sorry it didn't work for you. Out of curiosity, at what point did you give Mia release when training the ORS?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

When her hind legs crossed over, she was disengaged. But we would keep going until she would stop turning on her own. For stopping when she wasn't wound up, it worked fine.

But when she was worried, nervous, concerned - near a bolt but not leaping forward yet, although maybe gathering herself to do so - then I could turn her fine. Because this normally happened on a trail that was 6-8 feet wide, we normally ended up doing 180s, or some multiple thereof. Once in a while it would happen on a street, and then we had room and would just spin circles until she was ready to call it quits.

All of which was fine for keeping her from bolting. But she attached so much emotion to the event that it confirmed her fears. OTOH, when she learned stopping straight and fast in a curb bit, she would just stop. Or she would start to gather, I'd bump the reins, and she'd back a step and stand still. If the scary thing was a motorcycle, bicycle or some other such thing, it would then "go away" on its own. She soon figured out that stopping meant the scary thing ran away, and how scary can something be if it runs away from you?

If it was something else - a palo verde tree that had blossomed, and was now different looking and smelling than it was when we went past it 2 days earlier - well, we could at least stop. And stare. Then, from a stopped position, I could ask her for a 180 and we could WALK away. Then we could turn and face it from 100 feet back, and she would figure out it wasn't such a big deal after all. And then we could go forward...but with her agreement that it was not a scary thing after all.

I realize Mia was an unusual horse. Her fears ran very deep. For the first 3-4 years I owned her, nothing scared her more than a strange horse. Just walking her on a lead, she could melt down over a strange horse 1/4 mile away. It took years, literally, before she could walk past a strange horse without lathering up.

If someone says, "_I did deep flexing and a ORS with my horse, and it really calms him and connects him to me fast_"...I'm happy for them. I believe it is a good trick to have in one's bag of tricks. I did some "Warwich Schiller" style flexing with Bandit this morning, and liked what I saw. I think it will help him. We're going to do it regularly for some time to come.

But I do not understand the heavy emphasis CA puts on doing deep flexing for the first 5-10 minutes of every ride. Nor do I understand doing deep flexing while asking the horse to canter forward. In the video, CA said it made Titan "round" from tail to nose. 'I can feel him rounding', with his horse staring at his front feet.

I consider myself to be a western rider, but I think a lot of western arena riding has borrowed the terminology of dressage without first understanding what it means and why dressage riders use it. Although I'm usually viewed as anti-dressage on HF, Bandit and I spent part of our morning ride working on walking a 60' circle, and trying to make it a ROUND 60 foot circle. But if I had been pulling his nose to my toes during those 60 foot pentagons/hexagons, I'd have negated the value of the training. My goal was to get him "straight" on a 60 foot circle, not to flex his head and call that "soft", or have his nose nearly touching the ground and calling him rounded.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

bsms said:


> But I do not understand the heavy emphasis CA puts on doing deep flexing for the first 5-10 minutes of every ride. Nor do I understand doing deep flexing while asking the horse to canter forward. In the video, CA said it made Titan "round" from tail to nose. 'I can feel him rounding', with his horse staring at his front feet.



We agree there!

I have seen some "cowboys" who thought a good way to teach flex is to tie the horse's head to the horn and leave them like that for a while; so at least I can say CA doesn't do that. 

Poor Mia might have been subjected to something similar, without a possibility of release and learned to dread it; hard to undo...but what's done is done.

Glad to hear Bandit is responding well.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Because I'm not very articulate I feel I should mention a few things and I'm sure I'll have to comment again to be clear but you know..lol 

I am not arguing with anyone just gave my opinion based on my experiences. I completely agree with Smilie on "teaching body control does not create rubber necking." What does create rubber necking is flexing the neck independently from the body. 
That is why I don't understand, and if I'm wrong please correct me, CA uses(over) flexing from the stand still without asking for something else behind. 

The overflexing is a tough deal. I'm not going to lie, it can happen when you're asking a lot of a horse, especially a reiner/cowhorse bred. A lot of the colts I've started naturally want to be soft in the face and lope with their head down. When you ask for the nose and "bang" on their sides it'll happen. On that same note I try to prevent it because it's easy to do and soon they will hide from you by tucking their nose to their chest or shoulder if you ride the face. Ask me how I know..lol.. part of learning the hard way I guess. If anything it makes you honest about if you're using your hands too much.

The ORS, it doesn't work for every horse every time. No different than any other method. I had a horse 25 years ago that if you did two rollbacks on it would blow his mind but if turned him in small circles, kept changing circles, similar to a ORS (before I knew a ORS existed) was manageable. And we called it was " kicking a horse around" to get him broke loose. Unfortunately those who believe in absolutes when it comes to horses probably hasn't had/owned/ridden very many. The ones who think that an ORS is a must for every horse is, well one of those. And of course they should be taught not just used when the wreck is happening otherwise you are asking for the wreck. Like Smilie, i want a good rear end in the ground stop so I really don't use it to stop but get the horse soft and thinking about me.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Cowchick, I agree with you. ORS is not for everyone, not for every horse and not for every situation, so I agree with you. Though, I ride the kind of horses for which Both the ORS and Flexation has been a beneficial addition to their training. 

We trained the flex first from the ground, then the mounted standstill, not a la CA style but Brannaman style which, as I found out later is suggested in his "Making of a Bridle Horse Part 1" (along with ORS) 

I suppose that I was taught this makes sense in that I was mentoring with and training two barely broke horses with a bridle horse trainer, who taught both flexation for suppleness, softness and the ORS as part of a multi-year long process, rather than futurity training. 

The way it was explained to me by my trainer is that in the beginning it is done from a standstill to help the horse find that balance in all four quarters and give as softly as possible to the rein cue before adding movement. Then, later as the horse finds its feet and readily gives the head to the reins, the horse is taught to move out the hind quarters as in a disengage or a hind end over, shoulder through, movement among others. Like laying a foundation for flying lead changes, it is only one part of a longer process. 

Branamman takes it one step further and expects the horse to eventually learn to yield the hindquarters without a leg cue, only the rein. 

We never did it that way. In talking with my trainer, he pointed out to me, that in a precarious situation, tailored to the terrain we ride in, you don't want the horse to automatically, upon significant flex to move the hind quarters over as you might find yourself stepping off something you wish you had not. So we left it so that the horse needed to wait to receive the additional leg cue from the rider, it also is what allowed me to stop him safely at the canter as he was not going to just automatically step over at a higher speed and trip over his own feet. 

The turn was no sharper than what a barrel horse would take rounding a barrel, but rather than at a gallop, done at a lope. He slowed, stopped and then waited for the leg cue. It has not caused us any issues such as rubbernecking or falling over either on the trails or in the arena doing western dressage. I personally have not found any disjointedness between the head and the body as of yet, but we are only 18 months into training. 

Horses are all a bit different, what blows my horse's mind is someone who gets on and immediately starts kicking instead of touching with the leg, cranking his head around before noticing that isn't necessary, or a rider who cannot balance in the saddle it drives him ape! BSMS horse couldn't handle the restrictions of a ORS, your old horse from 25 years ago couldn't deal with too many rollbacks. 

Its a good thing there are so many methods for doing things that allow us to tailor things to our horses.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I gotta say, this has been the best thread, ever!! I really love to hear all the viewpoints. and if they differ, all the better.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hi Cowchick
Thanks for your elaboration, ans it goes along with what I have been trying to say. It is also why I always but in both the one rein stop, when referring to that 'emergency, where control needs to be gained + taking the head away, slash body control. It is also why I posted those videos of Larry Trocha, which basically are very similar as to what you talked about, taking the head, adding body control, changing direction, rinse and repeat
I know Cheri posted along info on the one rein stop, and she wants a horse to stop moving feet-period. I.m sure that post of hers can be googled
It is also afact, that you can't use the one rein stop, on a horse not taught to give tot hat rein, anymore then you can tie a horse solid, that has not been taught to give to pressure. Both will end in a wreak
Reining, the one rein stop, is not quite the same, nor executed the same, as that flexing CA is doing in those videos, and hense part of the large amount of confusion here!. I am not saying one uses it in all situations, and I rode horses out for years, without ever practicing either being able to take their head away, or the one rein stop, however, in can be a useful tool, not as the only tool, but just one more to have
I am still waiting for BSMS to tell me how he would have handled that scenario when Smilie got into a nest of ground hornets.Had I not been able to check her head, did not have softness in her face and poll, or an ingrained response to whoa, I doubt I would have been able to have enough time to step off, just relying on a bit, curb or otherwise, with the horse 'engaged'
I already mentioned many times that I don't flex a horse, endlessly like CA, esp at the standstill, but I am not convinced it is as bad as vertical hyperflexion (rolkur ) , and thus am 'on the fence' When medical evidence, is there, as it is for Rolkur, I will be less open minded about what he is doing
As for that 'disconnect;, that seems to be coming from Rashid, who also condemned all jointed mouth curbs, calling them all TT
I already posted endlessly of various methods to control a horse before he bolts, and some you can try once he is up and bolting
You can well go through life without ever having a one rein stop on your horse- I certainly did for more then 20 years. You are also much less likley to need it, if you ride just one or two horses, never ride colts out, or just because your horse is never pushed tot he point where something is not truly scary enough, so that just ingrained training , conditioning, trust,leadership, gets you by okay
Hubby doe snot have much on his trail horse, beyond that he can ride him one handed, down the trail, leading a pack horse, BUT, he always assumes if something happens, I have control of my horse, and thus his horse will also be fine. Works for him!
However, the fact remains, if you truly need to get control, where your horse is in high flight mode, you have a much greater chance of doing so, using body control, be that a one rein stop, taking the head away, several times, in sequence, while moving and changing directions, as Larry Trocha showed, then you ever will, with the horse engaged, hoping that bit will hold him
I think that I am done this thread!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Any Equine Physio or Chiro will tell you that 'voluntary' stretches such as the ones used on horses for flexing exercises as part of a warm up routine shouldn't last more than several seconds or you risk damaging the horse's muscles. Flexing exercises that manually put the horse into 'extreme positions should only be done after the horse has been worked for a long enough period to already have those muscles warmed up and even then only held in place for a short time and then released
I don't understand what CA thinks he's achieving by doing that at the start of each session but its not beneficial to the horse at all and it isn't a training exercise.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

The concept of flexing a horse has probably been controversial since man has been working with horses. In rereading “Reflections on Equestrian Art” (originally translated into English in 1976), I came across the following comments from Nuno Oliveira, an internationally know Portuguese rider and trainer who was often referred to as “Maestro”. While his comments are specifically concerned with flexion employed in regard to more classical training for “high school” (Haute-Ecole) movements, the concepts regarding “how” to employ flexion has broader application.

“Not all horses need the gymnastic exercise of jaw flexions. It is a waste of time to ask a horse who is well balanced, who has a good lower neck position and a soft mouth to do them....

“Flexions done while dismounted are useful to conquer resistances or, I should say, contractions of the jaw. If well done, flexions of the jaw are a very precious aid during training of the horse. But it must also be said that they are beneficial only when practised by a skilled rider who is accustomed to doing them.

“So many horses seem light in the riding school while ridden at shortened gaits which have little animation, but fall in towards the centre of the voltes [small circles], and do not properly obey the rider’s hands and legs when they are asked to do more lively exercises outside.

“The first requirement of a rider dismounted, when asking for a direct flexion, is to see that the jaw is relaxed. It is only much later, thanks to this previous demand, that the horse may be asked to give way to the bit’s pressure (ramener), without provoking any resistance.

"To practise direct flexions by insisting first on the position of the hand and then on the relaxation of the jaw is to fall into the error of softening the horse’s neck, giving it a false position which would justify the criticism of all those who disdain the use of flexions. If done incorrectly, the head position is obtained by force, which automatically presumes a forced compliance on the part of the horse. Horses thus flexed are only light in shortened gaits, and only then with great difficulty, while extremely heavy on the hand in extensions.”

The gist of Oliveira’s argument is that any flexion should be achieved through gentle encouragement if it is to be effective. Force, while achieving an outward appearance of compliance, usually produces tension in the horse. A tense horse cannot perform with the graceful willingness of a horse that responds without intimidation.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Great post TXHorseman


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

first, I am not condoning Carte Blanche what CA is doing, neither do I use it, but one also can't really compare , far as the final total picture of relaxation, on a horse ridden with constant contact, held in frame to some degree, and one expected to eventually hold that frame alone, mainly ridden off of seat and legs
I agree that a tense horse does not learn much, but a horse that stands, relaxed, on a loose rein, is not what I would call a tense horse.
When I was taking reining clinics, that flexing at a standstill was not used.
What was used, quite a bit, was riding a direct bend circle, with a counter bend circle, counter canters and various flexing exercises while riding.
One trainer used that lateral flexing, during a run down, to a stop, to fix a horse that got strong, and bracy in the stop, but I never found it worked for me.
That is the good thing about taking clinics from many trainers in a certain discipline, then taking from each what works for you.
I bet I can google, and find where some trainers also still think in good hands, done correctly, rolkur can be useful
I just want a horse to give me his head, as shown by Larry Trocha. to move off of that indirect rein, like one trainer said, as it it was hot,
When you ride with two hands, you keep that horse between those reins, but when you ride with one hand, that horse has to learn to seek the place where he is evenly between the reins again, and also to stay there on his own.
Not saying that this requires any of that flexing to the degree CA is using it, but again, you just can't take examples and advise when horses were ridden on contat, two handed and apply it Carte Blanche to a riding method that evolved to be able to show a horse one handed, and on a loose rein
I have read various reining training books, admittedly outdated now, as I have not done those events in well over 10 years, by the likes of Bob Loomas, Craig Johnson, Al Dunning, and admit that the lateral flexing done by CA was not used then.
I would be interested, finding some details, of the training used today by reiners such as Shawn Flarida, and others that are listed a million dollar earners, a league CA is far from
II posted this video, just to show how that that horse is asked, for his face briefly, as you need that, before you then expect the horse to work at speed and stay correct on a loose rein. In the fast circle, as elsewhere, that horse has to guide by staying between those reins, versus helped by two hands-makes a difference in training , but perhaps not what CA is doing


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

just curious, TX, but is this correct? I would have thought it would be "head" rather than "hand".

""To practise direct flexions by insisting first on the position of the * hand *and then on the relaxation of the jaw is to fall into the error of softening the horse’s neck, giving it a false position which would justify the criticism of all those who disdain the use of flexions. If done incorrectly, the head position is obtained by force, which automatically presumes a forced compliance on the part of the horse. Horses thus flexed are only light in shortened gaits, and only then with great difficulty, while extremely heavy on the hand in extensions.”


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie - again - English horses have to learn to accept contact/rein pressure but they should NOT be held into an outline on a hard unforgiving hand. 
I'm sure there are some trainers that still think Rolkurr is the best thing since sliced bread but it doesn't mean that they're good or admired or that they're going to win competitions with it.
It started out as a quick fix cure for horse's that wouldn't soften and accept contact in the right outline by creating a false headset using muscle memory instead of self carriage, correct riding and a willingly compliant horse and it became a quick training method for lazy or incompetent trainers.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> just curious, TX, but is this correct? I would have thought it would be "head" rather than "hand".
> 
> ""To practise direct flexions by insisting first on the position of the * hand *and then on the relaxation of the jaw is to fall into the error of softening the horse’s neck, giving it a false position which would justify the criticism of all those who disdain the use of flexions. If done incorrectly, the head position is obtained by force, which automatically presumes a forced compliance on the part of the horse. Horses thus flexed are only light in shortened gaits, and only then with great difficulty, while extremely heavy on the hand in extensions.”


I agree with you, tinyliny, but I wrote the quote as it appears in the book.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

jaydee said:


> Smilie - again - English horses have to learn to accept contact/rein pressure but they should NOT be held into an outline on a hard unforgiving hand.
> I'm sure there are some trainers that still think Rolkurr is the best thing since sliced bread but it doesn't mean that they're good or admired or that they're going to win competitions with it.
> It started out as a quick fix cure for horse's that wouldn't soften and accept contact in the right outline by creating a false headset using muscle memory instead of self carriage, correct riding and a willingly compliant horse and it became a quick training method for lazy or incompetent trainers.



no, but Smilie has a point. the western horse ridden on a loose rein is given less immediate support on where to position his head. the English horse is given fairly immediate feedback and corrections (guidance) with the bit if the head is too high, or not soft, or ? the English horse rides pretty closely between the hands of the rider, side to side with the snaffle bit, and the skilled rider allows very little 'bouncing' back and forth becuase they teach the hrose to go with more independence, maintaining a good position. this is tested from time to time by putting a loop in one or both reins (geschlossen?) and seeing how long the horse can continue to carry that position on his own.

western horses are taught this to a high degree (at least those well trained are), and they do it with a long, loose rein. it takes a lot of training to get the hrose to keep the same level of indepence for long periods of time without any corrections.

what ends up irking many of us English riders is that when corrections do come from the western show rider, they are harsh snaps of the line, and the horse ends up not looking on it as "support", as many English horses find contact as a support,(something they JOIN the rider in) but rather as something to flee. they learn to duck behind this harsh snapping on their mouth. they are posiitoned out of fear, and once they learn this, it's very hard to teach them that contact does not mean they must contract away from it.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

We should understand that riding with two hands does not automatically equate to contact – especially tight contact – nor that riding with one hand automatically means riding with a loose rein. Hands are seldom immobile in relation to the horse’s head when riding. Circumstances vary, cues are given with the hands through various manipulations of the reins. I wish more emphasis was given to lightness when riding in any form. 

When training (not only when starting) horses, many good "Western" as well as "English" riders ride with two hands using a snaffle bit. This is not just to offer a greater range of cues. It is also to provide a greater feeling for how relaxed or tense the horse is. One can even feel if one side of the horse's head is more tense than the other side.

Alois Podhajsky stated in one of his books that dressage tests sometimes used to include a requirement to ride part of the test with only the curb bit and draped reins. This was not always the case, however. Podhajsky once let an official try riding his horse after a performance. After doing so, the official commented on how light the horse was. He had thought the constant contact Podhajsky had used equated to tight reins and a heavy horse. He learned this was not the case.

When observing others riding horses, it is good to observe the horse carefully. We should try to observe, not only what the horse is doing but how the horse is moving . Noting whether a horse is moving with tense muscles or relaxed muscles can often reveal not only how the horse is being ridden at the moment but, also, how it is ridden when being trained. This does not, of course, mean there will be no exceptions, but it is a good general rule.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I agree Tinyliny - and it's because we English riders (not all English riders compete only and ride only in upper level Dressage) do train our horses from the get go to understand and respect pressure and contact because when called for our horses are expected to come into a correct outline (as per English riding) quickly and willingly that maybe we're less inclined to be riding them in tight circles with their heads drawn around to our knees every time we get on them because we know that they'll respond quickly to rein pressure without having to do that?


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## Partita (Feb 19, 2016)

Nuno's quote should read head, not hands. That was a mistake in the translation. Although the mistake would yield similar troubles in the horse LOL. Translations aren't necessarily a direct or correct explanation of what was actually written or intended, unfortunately, depending on how closely the translator knew the writer, their command of the languages, and whether or not they were a horseman. I'm just saying this to encourage thinking about it and be careful before you swallow it whole.

A well trained western horse ridden on draped reins should feel when the rider first touches one or the other of the reins, correct? The horse would feel the motion (or slowing of the motion, as the case may be) of the rein on that side and react to that. Isn't that the reason for the weighted reins in the first place, not just because they look cool? Where do they first feel that touching of the rein by the rider? In the jaw at the very end of the skeletal chain. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. 

Similarly, an english rider should be just as subtle when communicating with the reins.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Partita said:


> . A well trained western horse ridden on draped reins should feel when the rider first touches one or the other of the reins, correct? The horse would feel the motion (or slowing of the motion, as the case may be) of the rein on that side and react to that. Isn't that the reason for the weighted reins in the first place, not just because they look cool?
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> ...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

i am in no way negating that upper English horses are very well trained, and perhaps my wording was incorrect, far as trying to explain my thoughts.
What I do know, just riding English or western, at the junior horse stage, it is much easier to get a horse shown English then western, as it is very different, to get a horse to rate speed,e ct, completely off of seat and legs, versus having some contact, however light.
Again< i am in no way trying to make this English versus Western, and either horse at upper end is very well trained, just saying that it does take difference in training, allowing the horse complete rein release, fixing and taking up contact as needed, building on that, until the horse can stay correct longer and longer, without that up take of contact.
Yes, the correction might seem harsh, once a horse is up in a curb, but the correction also comes more up, then back, because a curb cannot function correctly, rotating as it must, when the same direction of pull is used, as in a snaffle
To jerk is never okay, but you make contact, correct, then release, remembering that you only have one hand to do so, and go go from the extreme of no contact, to correcting, picking up ahorse as needed, then expecting him to stay correct again
Again< Jaydee, I have great respect of a well trained English horse, and in no way want to convey otherwise. I watch some of the International show jumping at Spruce Meadows every year, and got to meet Ian Miller. 
Some of my friends are into dressage, and I have watched some great dressage demos, including by Olympic level riders, at Spruce Meadows
All I want, is some acknowledgement, from the English sector, that perhaps, because of expectations in the way of going of a finished upper western horse, there is some divination/specialization in training also. Life has no absolutes!
In fact, Mandy Mc Quay (forgot her married name, when she showed in reining, at an Olympic demo, was cheered on my her English friends, as she shows both English and western, with her dad being a reining /working cowhorse trainer and her mom having a jumper background
McQuay stables offers both reining and hunter jumper training

McQuay Stables

In the end, a good horseman recognizes a good horse, in any discipline. Every discipline has it's own great horsemen, and some that are not so stellar 
I do not like when these discussions seem to go down the path of western versus English, which often happens when references to classic horsemenship are used, without considering, that while western, same as English is based on those principles, there has to be some nuisances , far as difference in training, just by the job the horses have to do, and they way they are expected to go


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

In case you don't want to wade through the entire McQuay site, here is alink to their history, how someone from a western background met someone from an English background, and together they established a very successful training operation, with mutual respect of the two disciplines

Our Story ? McQuay Stables


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie said:


> I do not like when these discussions seem to go down the path of western versus English, which often happens when references to classic horsemenship are used, without considering, that while western, same as English is based on those principles, there has to be some nuisances , far as difference in training, just by the job the horses have to do, and they way they are expected to go


I don't think this discussion has been about Western v English in terms of 'which is best' - but it has been about trying to make some members realize that just maybe what works for western horses and what they do doesn't work for English horses - which is exactly what some of us were trying to say when we rejected the CA method as a 'fix it' for the English riding OP on the thread that this one evolved out of
Though I would have thought that an overbent horse, a horse that works in a false headset and a horse that sucks behind the bit when pressure is applied would be a negative in both disciplines


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> just curious, TX, but is this correct? I would have thought it would be "head" rather than "hand".
> 
> ""To practise direct flexions by insisting first on the position of the * hand *and then on the relaxation of the jaw is to fall into the error of softening the horse’s neck...”


From my reading, I suspect he means "hand". This is from Baucher's New Method:

"In this case, we must cross the two snaffle-reins by taking the left rein in the right, and the right rein in the left hand, about six or seven inches from the horse's mouth, in such a way as to cause a pretty strong pressure upon the chin. This force, like all the others, must be continued until the horse yields. The flexions being repeated with this more powerful agent, will put him in a condition to respond to the means previously indicated.

If the horse responded to the first flexions represented by Plate 4, it would be unnecessary to make use of this one. (Plate V.) We can act directly on the jaw so as to render it prompt in moving. To do this, we take the left curb rein about six inches from the horse's mouth and draw it straight towards the left shoulder..." 








​
Flexions, at least with Baucher, started on the ground. VS Littauer wrote of spending many hours in the Russian Cavalry walking beside the horse doing various work in hand, and he thought it largely useless. Id have to dig more into it to be sure, and I can only go from reading. But IIRC, particularly when talking about flexing (loosening, relaxing) the jaw, it was started on the ground.

So to set the hand at some position and demanding the jaw relax is wrong, according to the quote. Our hand needs to educate the jaw, not impose on it.

"The importance of these flexions of the jaw is easily understood. *The result of them is to prepare the horse to yield instantly to the lightest pressure of the bit* and to supple directly the muscles that join the head to the neck...

...This exercise is the first of our attempts to accustom the forces of the horse to yield to ours. It is necessary, then, to manage it very nicely, so as not to discourage him at first. To enter on the flexion roughly would be to shock the animal's intelligence, who would not have had time to comprehend what was required of him. The opposition of the hands will be commenced gently but firmly..." - (pages 38, 40)

I don't see it as a western vs English thing, but an incorrectly vs correctly thing. To teach a horse to yield to a bit, and to trust the hand, is good riding regardless of saddle or duration of contact. I ride Bandit with very intermittent contact, but we spent our ride today working on trying to get him to trust my hand and respond to light pressure so I could ADJUST how he was balancing himself under my weight and relax more at a trot. We stopped at 20 minutes because he seemed to be getting it, and I didn't want to push my luck. Frankly, I'm simply not good enough to get it right myself for very long....:icon_rolleyes:

But my goal remains to ride much how I normally do - with some slack in the reins and with one hand 90% of the time or more. But I can help him figure out "_This method of balancing works better_" if I give him a chance to EXPERIENCE that method of balancing. And that sometimes means putting him 'in a frame' so he can eventually DESIRE to put himself in that posture - because it works, for both of us. Eight months ago, he was still using his left front leg twisted 30 degrees toe out. He doesn't do that now. His chest is actually getting wider and fuller. He is free to use his back in a way he could not use it before.

His burden is having a well intentioned and conscientious rider...but one whose riding skill it pretty questionable itself. A skilled rider might do for him in a few weeks what will take me a year, but I'm all he has. And at least I understand the problem, and the trend is my friend.

It is a give and take thing. He needs to learn the motion himself, but he won't know to TRY the motion unless I can set him up. And to do that, I need to be balanced and help him try something new via the bit.

But to have success, I need to be able to make small corrections. I need his trust in me and in the feel of the bit so I can set him up, and then let HIM figure out that it works. And I cannot set him up for success if he tries to swing his head to my toes as soon as I pick up the reins.

In fact, when he came here a year ago, the bit had been used as an emergency brake. The first time I went to stop him, I barely lifted the reins in my hand and he slammed on the brakes. I was using the Aussie saddle, and it was the first time in years that I hit the poleys. A horse who overreacts to contact cannot be taught via contact. Soft, to me, means responsive, not evasive.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I don't think this discussion has been about Western v English in terms of 'which is best' - but it has been about trying to make some members realize that just maybe what works for western horses and what they do doesn't work for English horses - which is exactly what some of us were trying to say when we rejected the CA method as a 'fix it' for the English riding OP on the thread that this one evolved out of
> Though I would have thought that an overbent horse, a horse that works in a false headset and a horse that sucks behind the bit when pressure is applied would be a negative in both disciplines


So, why have we not discussed over flexion on the vertical? It seems the topicS starts with finding some fault in a western hORse, and note, I did not say I necessarily agree with CA, noR that flexing, but If you wish, I can find many examples of English horses also dropping behind the vertical, caught in a moment in time. I am not Eluding to CA/s vidEO, but in case you are critiquing that reininG vidEO I posted todaY
Every time such a discussion comes up, based on a video on a western horse, seldom, if ever, an English horse, immediately some military past figure is quoted, or some classical dressage master, when in fact, western events evolved out of ranch work, which required different skills and ways of riding, . We open gates, not jump them.
We don't want up so much, as quick lateral movement and acceleration, or you loose that cow
Why did Rolkur become so popular in training dressage horses? Because up and vertical flexion and straight is highly valued, and thus taking the horse past where he had to eventually go, was considered 'helpful'
I suspect CA is taking it tot he extreme the other way, but for reasons he thinks will help with athletic movements that a working stock horse needs to make, and not a dressage horse
I am not focusing on CA, but the general attitude to western riding period.
A dressage horse is never asked to move out like a reiner, nor execute fast maneuvers, so, just maybe what some horseman wrote in his times, riiding for the purpose of his career/times, might have some variation in his approach,, if he were to try and train a horse today, that could win the NRHA fururity, and not Olympic dressage


In modern times Isabell Werth (and the others in training by German Dr. Shulten-Baumer), Nicole Uphoff, and Anky van Grunsven together with her trainer Sjef Janssen represent the ideal of riding horses deep. Out of these, Grunsven and Janssen are those who are the most open and honest about their training theory, speaking about it in interviews and articles, and absolutely those who attract the most students from the world of dressage. Many are drawn to the friendly and happy couple and want to learn the technique that can take them to the Olympics.

Setting the head deep to get the back up
Setting the head deep to get the back up
The openness around the method has increased significantly since 1988, when Nicole Uphoff won the Olympic gold medal. Since then, the vast majority of horses winning the Olympic gold have been consistently and routinely trained deep. The rest are ridden more or less overflexed or forcefully up, and are in no way near the performances of the deep trained horses, when it comes to control, precision and frontleg pizazz.

These 3 Olympic gold medallists, Uphoff, Werth and Grunsven clearly consider their own method of deep to be very different from that of the others, and naturally superior. They all claim their version to be the most scientific and precise and of course beneficial for the horse. But they all want to accomplish the same thing, or so they say...

So, thoughts on Olympic gold medalists that use Rolkur???/

From this link, that goes into the history of hyper flexion

::: Sustainable Dressage - Rollkur - How And Why Not? - What? How? :::


Yes, two wrongs don't make aright, but lets not pretend Rolkur is no longer used, and if discussing hyper flexion, to be fair, go into both vertical and latteral


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

we've had a lot of threads on Rolkur, actually. we could discuss here . . . though the general idea was to speak on LATERAL flexions.

I have the same wincing feeling watching riders using that severe deep or rolkur positioning as I do watching CA pull that colts head back and forth. ick!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have mentioned Rolkurr many times in this discussion and the one it evolved from and why it is not beneficial to the horse - how is that not discussing over-flexion on the vertical?
Its now illegal - yes some people might use it 'secretly' but not in the open 
You can tell a horse that was worked regularly in Rolkurr and one that has been produced without it by the way they perform and those former horses aren't the one's winning now


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Why can't someone dislike BOTH vertical and horizontal hyperflexions? And the ranch work that western riding evolved from did not involve hyperflexions. Pretty much anyone, riding in the real world, will prefer for their horse to see where they are going.

I think dressage waded into the rollkur pool and is backing out. I credit the amateur riders, the ones who will never ride in the Olympics, with protesting against it. The large majority of dressage riders simply didn't want to go down that road, and were not willing to accept "success" if that was the price.

In the western world...CA seems to be pushing it as an essential foundation for all horse training. And I guess I'm pushing back...a lowly Craigslist rider of Craigslist horses, who does nothing impressive with his horses, who doesn't compete in anything and who would get his butt kicked if he tried...but pushing back. Just as the low-level dressage lovers have. If you love a style of riding, you need to fight for it. You need to make sure "success" doesn't come at too steep a price.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

The quote by Nuno Oliveira dealt primarily with longitudinal flexion. Therefore, his comments would address such forced flexion as Rolkur.

German veterinarian Dr. Gerd Heuschmann has written several books addressing the detrimental effects of Rolkur as well as “hyperflexion” which has been presented as an alternative through obfuscation of what is actually happening. Heuschmann discusses the conflict in trying to make money by presenting dramatic movements to uneducated audiences and developing horses in the best possible way in his book “Balancing Act: The Horse in Sport – An Irreconcilable Conflict?” This book and others are addressed primarily to “English” riding but apply to “Western” riding as well. The principles relating to gentleness and force should be applied universally.

Specific methods used to achieve movements for various activities, shows, or demonstrations may vary. However, the principals of human relations to horses should not be forsaken for monetary gain in any aspect of riding. If showing in whatever discipline requires forced submission of a horse rather than sympathetic cooperation, compassionate riders should avoid such activities or protest for a change in the rules and appropriate aspects of judging.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Why did Rolkur become so popular in training dressage horses? Because up and vertical flexion and straight is highly valued, and thus taking the horse past where he had to eventually go, was considered 'helpful'
> Yes, two wrongs don't make aright, but lets not pretend Rolkur is no longer used, and if discussing hyper flexion, to be fair, go into both vertical and latteral


Yes, *to be fair*, Rollkur is very common in Western warm up rings too. In fact, I saw it used in western riding before I ever observed it in dressage.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The horse in the video that Smilie posted - rider using tight circles to slow it down - was behind the bit a lot of the time so had probably been ridden in some form of rolkurr/hyperflexion
If you get a horse's nose tucked on to its chest you can expect to not be able to stop it using your reins in any conventional way


Charlotte Dujardin who is about as good as it gets in the dressage world is not someone who advocates the use of Rolkurr - and it shows in the way her horse's perform
Deep and round and Low and round are not Rolkurr


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

At the ranches I've visited and even the stable where I first rode a horse and where I took lessons nearly 40 years later, that sort of riding would get you pulled off the horse. But it seems to be used more in western show riding now, which is one of the reasons the CA videos upset me. He is promoting bad riding. And lots of folks follow him, and consider him a guide to good horsemanship. People with almost no experience watch his videos and try to imitate him.

Give dressage its due. I've got a lot of dressage books, and there isn't a single one that recommends rollkur. It was, at its height, something TOP riders MIGHT use. It was never promoted as the foundation of a good riding trail horse!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Just wanted to add again, I'll have to re-read the posts since I last posted, I kinda lost track.

I remember Smilie had mentioned the older reining books. One of my favorites is by Bob Loomis as she mentioned. In the book, chapter 9, talks about suppling exercises. When Bob talks about the poll he specifically says the horse is to be ridden into the bridle and the horse should be on the perpendicular, not over flexed. Also that the suppling exercises are about moving the whole body. I took a couple pics of the book, you can see the horse is moving and not over flexed to the degree that CA and others use. Bob Loomis was the king of reiners and the sport has evolved since Bob has shown but I still believe that you don't need that amount flexing used by CA to get a horse show able in the reining pen.

ETA, sorry about the crappy pics but I think you get the idea.


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