# Why do people want drat horses and draft crosses to train and ride?



## Doe

Cherie

I cannot comment on the US of course. However here in the Uk it is not uncommon. I suspect it is a cultural background difference.

I have pictures of my father riding drafts as a teenager on the farm. They are often considered to have a nicer temperament than say a TB which is the most common horse here and not as stubborn as say a cob (I love cobs and don't follow personality stereotypes but just saying what I hear from people) Also a lot of larger men like to ride them, and even use them for hunting. Also of course in the marshy areas of the country they are much better suited to the softer ground with the huge plates for feet. I know people who use them for sheep herding instead of quad bikes etc.

Here in the Uk we very much go on a size vs weight model which is very different to the US. We would not consider allowing QHs of such small size to carry the weights they often do for example. (not getting into that argument, just stating observation again).

Also some people just like big horses  aesthetics are as much a part of horses as with any domestic animal, dogs, cats etc.

Anyway those are just some of my thoughts may be none of these lol


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## ShutUpJoe

Because drafts make my butt look smaller? 


No seriously, some people prefer larger horses. Some prefer to have more horse under them. I like them short and stocky, which is why I prefer Haflingers. But I always liked the power of a draft. They are just "more horse" than stock horses. I do not, however, prefer them for trail rides. When you are sitting up that high you are clearing out the cob webs and getting smacked by branches while all the others on shorter horses aren't. I do think that Draft crosses make excellent performance horses.


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## DraftXDressage

Many people want them because they think they will get a docile, naturally bombproof personality from the draft blood. In my experience, it doesn't usually work out that way - they range in hotness and spookiness just as much as any other breed or cross does. 

Then you've got folks who are looking for a mount to carry a heavier rider and believe that, because drafts are big and thick boned, they must be able to carry a lot of weight. Almost never the case, but again, way too many people don't understand what to look for in a horse's conformation to assess its weight bearing capacity. 

The third and I think most popular (at least in my area) category is the "poor man's warmblood." As you can tell from my username, I own a draft cross, and I do dressage with her. She's never going to be confused for Bretina, but she's got the substantial look (at least she does when she's not a big fat hippo) and big stride that is generally preferred for the dressage ring. She's never going to be an FEI level horse, but then again, I'm also never going to be an FEI level rider and I did not want to pay huge money for a horse with more potential than I would ever be able to use. Instead, I paid a reasonable sum for a horse who is athletic enough to be competitive and fit in at the lower levels of dressage.

A well thought out, carefully bred draft cross does not have to have a huge shoulder and no hindquarter -- there are breeders out there, particularly with the percheron x TB cross, who are producing lovely, balanced animals. 

I should add that the fox hunting set loves draft crosses, but that is well outside my area of expertise/experience, so I can't speak too much about what they're looking for in their mounts.


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## Tangiest Illicitness

Why do some people want Saddlebreds for riding horses?
Why do some people want to ride Thoroughbreds as pleasure horses?
Why do some people want boring, plodding horses to really just walk around on?
Why do some people want mules?

I personally can't ever see myself owning a ranch/cutting type horse because I want a horse that can jump competitively. As the saying goes- "different strokes for different folks".


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## natisha

Doe said:


> Cherie
> 
> I cannot comment on the US of course. However here in the Uk it is not uncommon. I suspect it is a cultural background difference.
> 
> I have pictures of my father riding drafts as a teenager on the farm. They are often considered to have a nicer temperament than say a TB which is the most common horse here and not as stubborn as say a cob (I love cobs and don't follow personality stereotypes but just saying what I hear from people) Also a lot of larger men like to ride them, and even use them for hunting. Also of course in the marshy areas of the country they are much better suited to the softer ground with the huge plates for feet. I know people who use them for sheep herding instead of quad bikes etc.
> 
> Here in the Uk we very much go on a size vs weight model which is very different to the US. We would not consider allowing QHs of such small size to carry the weights they often do for example. (not getting into that argument, just stating observation again).
> 
> Also some people just like big horses  aesthetics are as much a part of horses as with any domestic animal, dogs, cats etc.
> 
> Anyway those are just some of my thoughts may be none of these lol


Interesting :?


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## DraftXDressage

Doe said:


> Here in the Uk we very much go on a size vs weight model which is very different to the US. We would not consider allowing QHs of such small size to carry the weights they often do for example. (not getting into that argument, just stating observation again).


I do want to comment on this. I would say that, as a general rule, QHs are better built to carry a heavy rider than drafts. Drafts are bred to pull, not to carry weight on their backs. A short-coupled, strong backed small horse will have a much better time carrying a heavy rider than will a long-backed horse (as drafts tend to be) regardless of how large or how much bone the horse has.


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## Jessabel

In my experience, drafts tend to be incredibly smooth and comfy to ride. I could trot on Norm all day if he didn't wear out in fifteen minutes. :lol: 

You should try riding a draft once. It's a neat experience. Kinda feels like sitting on a dump truck, but it's cool. True, drafts can't compete with Thoroughbreds or Quarter Horses in terms of athleticism, but they're nice if you just ride for fun. 

Here's a competition that looks super fun. I'd totally do it if my guy was better trained.


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## Doe

DraftXDressage said:


> I do want to comment on this. I would say that, as a general rule, QHs are better built to carry a heavy rider than drafts. Drafts are bred to pull, not to carry weight on their backs. A short-coupled, strong backed small horse will have a much better time carrying a heavy rider than will a long-backed horse (as drafts tend to be) regardless of how large or how much bone the horse has.


As I said I'm not trying to enter that argument, just pointing out the differences in 'culture' and the reasons bigger horses are popular here. My own QH is one of the smallest horses on the yard at 15.2. Often referred to as a pony even by my own father lol few men would be happy to ride such a short horse. People much prefer to see me on the 17.3 Irish draft and I'm only 5ft7/8 and around 11.5 stone so not a big build. I get away with it because of my size but any bigger and I would be labelled cruel. It's how it is gauged in traditional circles in the Uk.


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## ShutUpJoe

That looks fun!


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## DraftXDressage

Doe said:


> As I said I'm not trying to enter that argument, just pointing out the differences in 'culture' and the reasons bigger horses are popular here. My own QH is one of the smallest horses on the yard at 15.2. Often referred to as a pony even by my own father lol few men would be happy to ride such a short horse. People much prefer to see me on the 17.3 Irish draft and I'm only 5ft7/8 and around 11.5 stone so not a big build. I get away with it because of my size but any bigger and I would be labelled cruel. It's how it is gauged in traditional circles in the Uk.


I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come off as argumentative. As a draft cross owner and general draft enthusiast, I see a lot of drafts who are asked to carry more weight than their long and relatively weak backs can carry, simply because people continue to follow the 20% rule (the idea that a horse can comfortably carry 20% of its body weight in rider + tack), rather than understanding that it's conformation rather than size that really determines a horse's ability to carry weight. Fortunately or unfortunately, though, many drafts are so stoic that they suffer quietly with their sore backs and well-meaning owners never know the truth.


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## kitten_Val

I did ride draftX in past and frankly didn't find too much of difference than riding say QH (I'm talking about pure flat riding, no reining/cutting/jumping etc.). Some people just like a look of them, and I definitely have seen some really nice looking and moving crosses in dressage.


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## thesilverspear

I got my Shire-TBX, the horse in my avatar, because she was pretty, had a nice temperament, and was athletic enough and a good enough mover for dressage. I wasn't looking for a Draft-X specifically (or a horse at all, but that's a different story) but I've always had a soft-spot for heavy-ish horses with lots of mane and feather. It's purely an aesthetic thing.

They are fantastic and I'd get another one if I found the right one. Plenty of fugly ones about -- horses with the draft front end and the light horse back end, that sort of thing. But when they're nice, they have the best of the light horse and heavy horse. A fellow boarder at a yard I kept Gypsum at used to call her a "made-to-order warmblood."


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## thesilverspear

A follow-up question:

Has anyone in the US noticed draft-crosses becoming more of an "in" thing in the past eight or nine years? About eleven years ago, when I bought mine as a seven-year old, she seemed quite unusual, and people noticed her at shows and would be like, "Wow. What kind of horse is that? Shire-thoroughbred. How interesting!" After I'd had her for a couple years, it suddenly seemed as if everyone and their mother had three-to-five year old draft-crosses.


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## DraftyAiresMum

I haven't had tons of experiences with drafts or draft crosses, but I can speak from the experience I've had with my two-year-old Percheron/paint cross.

He was bred at a stable in Canada that breeds Percherons. They make outcrossings to thoroughbreds, paints and certain cross-breeds (they have a spotted draft stallion among their standing stallions) to produce sport horses. I got in contact with Aires' breeder after I bought him and he was definitely bred as a sport horse. Here's what they say on their website concerning the reason they outcross: "Others (meaning their mares) are selected to be bred to our APHA registered paint stallion, our Jockey Club registered thoroughbred stallion, or one of our cross-bred stallions, * to produce some outstanding sport horse prospects and pleasure horses.*" (I put that last part in bold)

Now, I can attest to the fact that not all their draft crosses are "outstanding sport horse prospects." Aires' half-sister, Piper, is horribly-built (long back, short thick neck, severely downhill, even for a two-year-old). Aires, however, is built, as DraftXDressage put it, like a "poor man's warmblood." In fact, on another forum, I had someone ask me where I got a spotted warmblood (this wasn't a purely horse forum, but a writing forum and I had posted in one of the non-related subforums). 

I wish I could upload the video I have of his first ride in the arena. His trot is so smooth that the trainer (who was riding him) didn't have to post at all. In fact, she was literally not moving AT ALL in the saddle. His gaits are SUPER smooth and he has VERY big movement. He randomly trotted on me one day and really the only reason I knew he was trotting was because the scenery was going by more quickly. Again, probably not true of all draft crosses, but certainly true of mine.

As for the temperament...I have never met a less-spooky horse in my entire life. Even the supposedly "bomb-proof" horses I've ridden in the past were more "OMG! We're all gonna die!" than Aires is. Flapping flags, barking dogs coming up behind him, getting left behind by the rest of the horses when we're riding, big scary trailers in the wrong place outside the arena...all they illicit is a couple of steps to the side and a long, hard look, or trotting to catch up with the safety of everyone else. Hardly the reactions one would expect of a two-year-old who hadn't been handled in more than six months when I got him.

So, those are the reasons I picked a draft cross. He's big (15.2-15.3hh at two), lovable (he loves kids, especially), calm, quiet and able to do what I want (he's got stamina for DAYS and after talking to the trainer who we're working with, she thinks he can easily do eventing, dressage, HUS, whatever I want to do with him...heck, he could even do WP, if we really wanted to). He's also extremely trusting and willing. Moreso than any horse I've worked with.


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## Beauseant

I can tell you why my son bought Epona, the Belgian:









Because she is a beautiful, sweet, gentle natured, kind hearted soul....











And gorgeous also! Registered name: Traces of Gold...as the picture shows.




It's as simple as that in our case. We do not judge a prospective purchase on it's breed ..... we judge by their temperment.


Which is why our second horse was an OTTB.

So now we own A Belgian draft and an OTTB...Like apples and oranges....










SO different in every way except for one.... their temperment.


Since we don't do competitions or showing, it doesn't matter to us what breed we own....just their personalities.

And our two are winners in that category!!!


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## coffeegod

I went with a draft cross because I figured an animal bred to carry some dude in a metal suit could probably comfortably haul my broad backside as well. Before I adopted Hugo, I made sure he was sound enough to carry me and my gear. I would have done the same for any horse.

I will tell you that Hugo is the most curious horse I've ever met. Should he spook, he will ALWAYS return and check out what spooked him. He is also a sweetheart and a barn favorite as well.

It is a matter of taste. Personally, I don't get the hoopla surrounding Arabians. They look all freaky and stretched out to me.

Gimme a stocky horse, Appy, old school QH, draft. I like my horses like I like my men - Big and stocky.


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## DraftyAiresMum

coffeegod said:


> I will tell you that Hugo is the most curious horse I've ever met. Should he spook, he will ALWAYS return and check out what spooked him. He is also a sweetheart and a barn favorite as well.
> 
> Gimme a stocky horse, Appy, old school QH, draft. I like my horses like I like my men - Big and stocky.


Loves me some Hugo! Every time I see his name, I instantly think "Hugo Boss"!  As for the curiosity thing...does he randomly check out new things (if they don't spook him)? Aires went over one day on a walk and started playing with one of those big green trash cans (he'd never seen one before, as far as I know). lol 

And I had to laugh at your statement about liking your horses like you like your men. Amen, sista! :twisted: I either like them short and sexy (my old gelding was a 14.2hh arab/saddlebred cross) or big and stocky (makes me feel nice and petite and smaller than I actually am). ;-)


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## coffeegod

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Loves me some Hugo! Every time I see his name, I instantly think "Hugo Boss"!  As for the curiosity thing...does he randomly check out new things (if they don't spook him)? Aires went over one day on a walk and started playing with one of those big green trash cans (he'd never seen one before, as far as I know). lol
> 
> And I had to laugh at your statement about liking your horses like you like your men. Amen, sista! :twisted: I either like them short and sexy (my old gelding was a 14.2hh arab/saddlebred cross) or big and stocky (makes me feel nice and petite and smaller than I actually am). ;-)


Awww! Hugo was named after Jorge Garcia's character on 'Lost'. Big ol' gentle giant. It suits him. One of Hugo's barn names is Mr. Nosey. He examines EVERYTHING! Digs in garbage cans, sticks his head is open tack rooms, walks right in any open stall, all in the name of looking around. You never know when something that needs eating might be in there.

My husband was 6'5" and about 480 lbs. at the time of his death. Another big ol' guy. My son is on track for that size as well. We believe in goin' big or goin' home.


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## DraftyAiresMum

coffeegod said:


> Awww! Hugo was named after Jorge Garcia's character on 'Lost'. Big ol' gentle giant. It suits him. One of Hugo's barn names is Mr. Nosey. He examines EVERYTHING! Digs in garbage cans, sticks his head is open tack rooms, walks right in any open stall, all in the name of looking around. You never know when something that needs eating might be in there.
> 
> My husband was 6'5" and about 480 lbs. at the time of his death. Another big ol' guy. My son is on track for that size as well. We believe in goin' big or goin' home.


That's it. Imma steal Hugo! ;-)

I was standing there talking to another boarder the other day and all of a sudden I turned around and smacked Aires and said "Don't!" The other boarder was like "All he was doing was nudging you." Yeah, showed her my back pocket (where my phone usually is and it had been vibrating 'cuz I got a text)...there was horse drool all over it and one side of the pocket was ripped. Aires was trying to get me my phone for me!  Now she calls him Mr Nosey-Nuts.

Yeah, my ex-husband and ex-boyfriend (I've only really ever had one of each) were both big guys...ex-DH was 6'5" and 280lbs when we got married...ex-BF was 6'2" and about 240lbs. Guy I "pseudo-dated" after high school (we hung out a lot and cuddled, but that was it) was 6'11" and 120lbs.


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## franknbeans

coffeegod said:


> I went with a draft cross because I figured an animal bred to carry some dude in a metal suit could probably comfortably haul my broad backside as well. Before I adopted Hugo, I made sure he was sound enough to carry me and my gear. I would have done the same for any horse.
> 
> I will tell you that Hugo is the most curious horse I've ever met. Should he spook, he will ALWAYS return and check out what spooked him. He is also a sweetheart and a barn favorite as well.
> 
> It is a matter of taste. Personally, I don't get the hoopla surrounding Arabians. They look all freaky and stretched out to me.
> 
> Gimme a stocky horse, Appy, old school QH, draft. I like my horses like I like my men - Big and stocky.


I am SO with you! I got my Clyde cross about 17 yrs ago, and at that point, they were really just beginning to be bred, at least in the mid atlantic, for hunt horses, particularly for men,since, yes, the mentality was that a bigger horse could carry a big guy. They are also, at least from my experience, incredibly docile, durable, and easy keepers. Mine pretty much lives on air, always has, and has never had shoes on his feet. He will ALWAYS take care of his rider, and is a totally different horse if I put a kid on him, which is why he has been a therapeutic horse.

He is a barn favorite, always. He is not much more than a big dog, frankly. Gives the best hugs, and can make ANY sadness all better.:wink:

He thinks he is incredibly fast, (shhhh, we won't tell him he is slow as molasses), and thinks hecan buck in the field with the best of them......but truly cannot get his fat @$$ up in the air. Personality like no other. He comes in every morning, savors every bite of his 1/2 cup of pellets, lays down, and, just like any old man, snores and farts.:lol: If you choose, you are always welcome to come lay with him.


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## smrobs

I have 2 full drafts and 2 draft crosses at my house, 2 of them are green broke to ride (one full draft isn't and one cross is only a yearling). The full drafts are primarily used as a driven team, though I did start my Perch under saddle just for the experience of it. All I've ever ridden was stock horses and I wanted to know what it would feel like to ride something so big and powerful as John.

Right now, I am starting my BelgianxQH under saddle because I plan for him to be my next saddle horse. His momma came to us pregnant and he needs a job so saddle horse it is. The same goes for my PerchxPaint yearling. When he gets old enough, he'll be started under saddle.

For me, it doesn't matter what I ride. Stock horses make up 99% of what I ride so for me, a draft or cross is just something different, fun, and unusual. Plus, nobody else has horses that size or appearance that are saddle broke around here, so it's quite an eye catcher for other folks.


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## coffeegod

franknbeans said:


> I am SO with you! I got my Clyde cross about 17 yrs ago, and at that point, they were really just beginning to be bred, at least in the mid atlantic, for hunt horses, particularly for men,since, yes, the mentality was that a bigger horse could carry a big guy. They are also, at least from my experience, incredibly docile, durable, and easy keepers. Mine pretty much lives on air, always has, and has never had shoes on his feet. He will ALWAYS take care of his rider, and is a totally different horse if I put a kid on him, which is why he has been a therapeutic horse.
> 
> He is a barn favorite, always. He is not much more than a big dog, frankly. Gives the best hugs, and can make ANY sadness all better.:wink:
> 
> He thinks he is incredibly fast, (shhhh, we won't tell him he is slow as molasses), and thinks hecan buck in the field with the best of them......but truly cannot get his fat @$$ up in the air. Personality like no other. He comes in every morning, savors every bite of his 1/2 cup of pellets, lays down, and, just like any old man, snores and farts.:lol: If you choose, you are always welcome to come lay with him.


Hugo is usually a total derp - easily distracted, forgets his manners, etc. Saturday, I took my tiny 5 year old niece out to the barn to see the horse. She is quick to be intimidated and I must admit, I had my doubts about Hugo's ability to behave.

I shouldn't have worried. He walked like a gentleman, stopped without crowding when he got to my niece, lowered his big ol' head and accepted her timid pats on the nose like he did it every day. I was so proud.

I adore old animals. My alpha dog is getting up there in years. He can't leap tall beds in a single bound any more. His favorite thing to do is burp in my face. You just can't beat the old ones.


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## trailhorserider

Doe said:


> As I said I'm not trying to enter that argument, just pointing out the differences in 'culture' and the reasons bigger horses are popular here. My own QH is one of the smallest horses on the yard at 15.2. Often referred to as a pony even by my own father lol few men would be happy to ride such a short horse. People much prefer to see me on the 17.3 Irish draft and I'm only 5ft7/8 and around 11.5 stone so not a big build. I get away with it because of my size but any bigger and I would be labelled cruel. It's how it is gauged in traditional circles in the Uk.



Wow, things are so different out west (western USA). Almost all the horses are fairly short and everyone of every size rides them. For instance, my trail horses are 14.3 and 15.1 and I am 5'6" 200 lbs. Now do I wish I had a bigger horse? Sure, why not? But they really aren't common around here. As a matter of fact, the guy I bought my Missouri Fox Trotter from (she's 15.1, 1100 lbs.) said she was one of his bigger mares. I don't think I have EVER seen a 17+ hand riding horse in person. Ever! I have seen a few drafts who were very tall (such as purebred Clydesdales and Percheron hitch horses), and I know there are probably a few folks with tall riding horses out there, but I certainly never see them among my friends and neighbor's horses.

Who actually needs a 17+ hand riding horse anyway? I could see a jumper maybe having an easier time getting over the jumps, but other than that, why would anyone need a riding horse that tall??? What kind of advantage would that have? 

Maybe I am contradicting myself, because on one hand I would love to have a draft cross, but on the other, I am surprised people think they NEED to ride a super tall horse in the UK. I guess I get the "want" part, but am surprised a normal man wouldn't ride a 15.2 hand horse. Why on earth not? That's a good sized horse if it has decent conformation. It should be able to carry almost any rider that isn't super over-weight.

I personally would LOVE to have a draft cross because I love the "look," heavier bone and large feet. That is something I think is honestly missing from the majority of QH's I have seen. They have all this muscle but tiny bones and hooves. Why? Because show people think it looks prettier? I would love to own horse with good substance (wouldn't have to be tall). 

Actually, my 14.3 hand trail horse is a Mustang who I think has a little draft in him. He has lovely, sound feet and good bone. So even though he is short, he's very stocky and very strong. Normally I would not want to own a horse that short because I would feel too big on it, but my Mustang is an exception because he has all the substance of a large horse in a short, easy-to-mount package. 

But I love the look of drafts and draft crosses and would love to own one! All things being equal, I would probably choose a draft cross over a QH based on bone substance and hoof size alone. I think horses should be bred to last and have good substance. But it's not only that, I really love they way they are built too.


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## Masquerade

In my experience, (owning 3 purebred percherons trained for dressage as well as training and showing pure drafts and draft crosses for dressage and eventing) as with any breeding program, if you do it right these horses can be just as beautiful, athletic and expensive as many warmbloods. One of the breeding farms I used to work at had a purebred percheron stallion that was competed and won in grand prix dressage and has many fantastic sons and daughters (three of which are also training and showing at FEI level, look for Portmanteau, Forrest and Victor)Stallions

In high level dressage, the collected movements are worth more and those are the movements where the drafts excel. Because they are designed to pull all of their strength is in their hind end and they are naturally built uphill. They do not have great extension because of a more upright shoulder but you can choose drafts with a more sloping shoulder and then cross to a TB to some very competitive sport horses.


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## Cat

We got a draft cross as a foal because we were adopting one from the rescue and he was a very cute. Not the most technical of reasons for picking him, but hey - what can I say? 

We still have him because he happened to grow up to be the perfect mount for my husband. He is very laid back, easy to train, and friendly. My husband is lean but very tall (6'4) and the extra width on the draft cross takes up his legs nicely. However, since Apache is a cross - he is only 15.2 hands, so not as hugely tall as a pure draft would be (still huge to me who rides a haflinger!).

Drafts may be showing up more due to PMU horses in the past and the Nursemare Orphan foals because a lot of the nursemares are draft or draft crosses due to their increase in milk production. Also some believe crossing a draft and a TB/QH/Arabian will automatically make a warmblood or sport horse - which right now are the hot marketing phrase of the horse world it seems.


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## Cherie

Most of the draft crosses I have seen in the last 10 - 15 years have come from the PMU farms. They like draft mares and try to market the foals as 'sport horses'. Most are just 'mongrels' with no parentage that has a clue of a 'good' saddle horse in it anywhere. 

Horses like Masquerade talks about are selectively bred from proven stock that has been successful under saddle. That makes more sense. Just crossing any draft with any 'light horse' makes no sense at all. It is like shooting a gun with a blindfold on and hoping you hit the right target. 

I have trained quite a few Wormbloods. While they may originally have come from draft stock crossed on saddle stock, they have been selectively bred for many generations. When you spend a century breeding the good ones and culling the sorry ones, you can set a 'type' and can get predictable quality. 

To me, when you breed any old cull TB or QH with any old draft horse, you get 90% big, dumb and ugly and probably less than 10% of getting quality. 

I remember when I was a kid they interviewed Jimmy Durante on one of the early TV Variety Shows. I will never forget that he said he had thought about marrying Marilyn Monroe. They could have children with her beauty and his brains. But, then he figured all they would get would be kids that had her brains and his looks. To this day, every time I see people breed opposites to the looks of one and size of the other or the looks of one and the athletic ability or speed of the other, I just figure they will have as good or better chance of getting the worst traits of both as there has not been a 'type' set by several generations of breeding 'like to like'.

I am sure there are many very nice ones that have a lot of good qualities and ability. But, I'll bet there are a lot more that are culls that are just more fodder for the slaughter market. 

JMHO -- that has come from years of observations.


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## Golden Horse

Cherie said:


> To me, when you breed any old cull TB or QH with any old draft horse, you get 90% big, dumb and ugly and probably less than 10% of getting quality.


And when you breed any old cull TB or QH with any other TB or QH you have the same issues of quality.

ANy breeding is a crap shoot, and yes breeding two opposites together and hoping for something in the middle has the worst odds of the lot. However if you use care with choosing the draft parent and the lighter parent you can improve the odds of having something useful.

PMU barns for many years have to breed with an eye on quality, so there are far less reject foals, they are seen as part of the cash crop now, and some very nice horses are coming from that outlet.

I'm proud to be a draft cross owner, and having bought her to save her from the meat man, and gone through all the battles with her, it is worth it just for that trot. She is the first horse I have ever ridden who I could happily ride at sitting trot all day, it is just awesome. I see the same comment several times before, so go try a draft X people, you may just find teh most comfortable horse you have ever ridden.


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## Doe

> To me, when you breed any old cull TB or QH with any old draft horse, you get 90% big, dumb and ugly and probably less than 10% of getting quality


Unfortunately all too often it's not the horses that are dumb, it's the trainers. Paints are stupid, cobs are pushy and thick skinned, TBs are wired and hyper, arabs are flighty. Blah blah blah. All tosh from people who can't handle a real horse and have to have it more inbred than the royal family in order to hide their lack of skill. 

I feel sorry for the horses, but its great for those who can see past the facade and pick up some wonderful animals for next to nothing. 

Remember a good horse is never a bad colour.......


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## tinyliny

Masquerade said:


> In my experience, (owning 3 purebred percherons trained for dressage as well as training and showing pure drafts and draft crosses for dressage and eventing) as with any breeding program, if you do it right these horses can be just as beautiful, athletic and expensive as many warmbloods. One of the breeding farms I used to work at had a purebred percheron stallion that was competed and won in grand prix dressage and has many fantastic sons and daughters (three of which are also training and showing at FEI level, look for Portmanteau, Forrest and Victor)Stallions
> 
> In high level dressage, the collected movements are worth more and those are the movements where the drafts excel. *Because they are designed to pull all of their strength is in their hind end and they are naturally built uphill. *They do not have great extension because of a more upright shoulder but you can choose drafts with a more sloping shoulder and then cross to a TB to some very competitive sport horses.


 
_I have heard just the opposite to that. That draft horses pull from the shoulder mostly , not so much pushing from behind. They do have massive shoulders._


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## Masquerade

tinyliny said:


> _I have heard just the opposite to that. That draft horses pull from the shoulder mostly , not so much pushing from behind. They do have massive shoulders._


If you watch draft pulling competitions you will see just how much they use their hind end with huge loads so it is definately not their shoulders that move the loads. Here is one example but there are tons just like it:


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## thesilverspear

Aye, I think the PMU people have wised up and are breeding some decent horses. I bought a three-year old PMU baby to back and turn around from a woman who got PMU babies as weanlings from the farms in Canada and sold them on. She had a selection of youngsters and they were all pretty good-looking horses. The one I got, Clyde-QH-TB, wasn't the fanciest mover, but he was the most even tempered and laid-back and was nice enough. 

I think they excel as all-rounders, as pleasure horses, and as low-to-mid level competition horses. If you want to do a bit of dressage, a bit of jumping, and also have something sensible enough to trail ride, they are fantastic horses. In spite of Cherie's characterization, most of the draft-crosses I have met have been very smart and trainable and I can't say the same for all the warmbloods I've met.  I think many of them are very good and very forgiving amateur horses, as they are often steady and sensible and friendly. When I bought Gypsum, I had no opinions on draft-crosses and as I said, she was pretty. But when I bought my three-year old PMU baby, I needed a youngster who would be easy to train and sell within a year-ish, so I looked specifically at draft-crosses as I knew they were likely to fit the bill. 

That all said, because there is no "type," they vary considerably in athletic ability. A lot of them lack suspension in the trot and have pretty rubbish, almost four-beat, canters. I've ridden a few who have the smoothest, easiest trot to sit in the world, but zero suspension, which is limiting if dressage is your thing as there is no "space" in the gait, but is probably good if you want an easy to ride pleasure horse and don't fancy being bounced around by a massive trot. I said above they are great all-rounders, but I should qualify that because some of them are really terrible jumpers and have a bit of a cow-like style of going over a fence. I helped start this Morgan-Perch cross over fences years ago and thought I was going to die, as he'd just barrel through the fence. Even solid ones. Just couldn't get his body off the ground in any kind of coordinated way, poor guy. But when you get a good one who can jump, man, they can really jump. My Shire-X is a fine jumper in the arena and a machine cross-country, who would have had an excellent career as an eventer had she an owner who was less chicken. 

However, if I had serious ambitions for doing FEI dressage, say, I'd look at warmbloods or Iberians, as they've been selectively bred for centuries to do just that. I suppose you can get lucky and find draft-crosses who have the ability to do it, but you'd be hard-pressed I think and really, why? Same with the upper levels of eventing, show-jumping, whatever. When you're getting into that highly-specialized territory, you're best off getting a horse bred to do it but for those of us mortals who just want a horse to play around with and do a bit of everything, a good draft-cross is a great horse.


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## coffeegod

Cherie said:


> To me, when you breed any old cull TB or QH with any old draft horse, you get 90% big, dumb and ugly and probably less than 10% of getting quality.


Just not a big fan of drafts and draft crosses, are you?



Cherie said:


> I am sure there are many very nice ones that have a lot of good qualities and ability. But, I'll bet there are a lot more that are culls that are just more fodder for the slaughter market.


This could be said of just about breeding program. Not every Thoroughbred is a racehorse. Not every QH is a barrel champ. Not every Arabian is halter perfect.



Cherie said:


> JMHO -- that has come from years of observations.


While anecdotal evidence is still evidence, bias plays a large role in how the data is processed. We draft and draft cross owners get that you don't appreciate our animals. As with human beauty, my boy's stunning good looks are in the eye of those beholding his even-tempered magnificence.

I wish all you the best in all your equine endeavors. May you never be burdened with draft stock.

P.S. - I think Jimmy Durante was very elegant looking man. A world full of Brad Pitts would be...well, boring.


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## pintophile

I'm not understanding why it's such a big deal?? Some draft crosses are ugly, some make really nice horses. I don't think it's any different than halter-bred QHs, or racing TBs...there are messed up ones in every bunch. If you want to ride a draft cross, go right ahead. I don't really see what there is to complain about, except that it's different. Humans do all sorts of unusual things, this being among the least of them.


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## Golden Horse

Well said pinto, BTW love your avatar


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## Cherie

No! I am not biased against draft stock. I have trained many to drive. Since I am retired from active training and have not trained for the public for quite a few years before that, it is a mute point anyway. They were always sent to me to do what they were selectively bred for -- to drive. I found them quite easy to get along with and no problem to train. Even the spoiled ones I got in were quite easily turned around. No one ever sent one to me to train to ride, so I did not train any for riding. The draft crosses I was sent were just bred and raised to be lighter weight feed teams, but still were not bred to ride nor trained to ride.

It is not that I do not 'appreciate' anyone's horses. I appreciate ANY good horse. I certainly do not have a bias against any good horse -- no matter the breed or crossed-breed.

I have no problem with others that want to ride them and put this thread out there to see why others liked them so much to ride. I have found that most are shopped around for and not 'home-bred'. The stories here confirm that. When shopping around, the bad movers, those with really lousy conformation and the butt-ugly ones are simply not purchased. Just do not try to tell me that these crosses do not produce more than a few **** footed, long backed, straight shouldered beasts with four foot long Roman-nosed heads that also come with a high tendency to have PSSM and IR problems. Obviously, people shop around for the better ones. 

What I do have a problem with is breeding ANY opposite to opposite and particularly when the individuals being bred are not carefully chosen. When a breeder does that, they must recognize that a high percentage of the resulting foals with bad conformation or very bad movement are just more fodder for the slaughter market. I think it is the very height of irresponsible breeding.

It is also very irresponsible to breed any poor quality individuals while 'hoping for the best'. Good horses of any type come from good stock and not from culls. Predictable results come from breeding two good individuals of 'like type'. When we used to raise mules, we bought a good Spanish Catalonian riding Jack and bred him to registered Quarter Horse mares, most of which had AQHA points or money earned in Reining and Reined Cowhorse events. It seemed that back then (the 80s) most people raised mules from a $30.00 Jack bought at the local horse sale and cull mares that were either not sound or did not ride and then somehow thought they would get a good mule. 

I have just seen a whole lot of that same thing with people crossing draft stock. Of course this is only anecdotal evidence, but I have seen enough of them to know this must be a very common result. 

Like I said in the beginning, I just genuinely wanted to know what their appeal was other than 'the look'. I do not want to start a whole new Frey, but I think the 'look' must be the main attraction for the Gypsy Vanners and Fresians. Again, JMHO.

Cherie


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## MakinDust23

We have a belgian/paint cross a very cute mare who we would trust to put anybody on the nieces, nephews, grandchildren, heck even grandma! She knows when to just plot around but when either i or my sister get on her she does a complete 180. We take her to shows and she will run with the best of them and she is by no means small either!!! She carries most of the belgian features with the exception she is a paint!! She can turn a barrel and bend a pole and scoot from one end of the arena to the next and be in the ribbons! She hasnt had any professional training, we bought her at the Midamerica Draft horse sale a few years back from a young amish boy who had broke her to ride. When we got her, her name was Pearl we changed it to Babe due to the fact that she is so large haha!!! She is a lot of fun to ride bareback its like sittin on a lazy boy!!! I personally have always enjoyed riding drafts they are a really nice ride and fun!


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## Dressage10135

Honestly, I believe that draft crosses were bred to try and add a little more density to your "average" horse. As for what are they good for? Dressage, jumping, trails, pulling a sleigh, therapy.. the list can go on. Just like almost ANY breed, there are some that are not so appealing conformation wise and some that are outstanding. 

"Just do not try to tell me that these crosses do not produce more than a few **** footed, long backed, straight shouldered beasts with four foot long Roman-nosed heads that also come with a high tendency to have PSSM and IR problems. Obviously, people shop around for the better ones." 

When you say something like that it just goes to show me you are clearly ignorant and/or misinformed. Go to any search engine and I will bet that you find more un-workable QH's than you will draft crosses. 

By the way, my guy was an accidental breeding by an average "cull". His dad was a plow horse that got out and bred the neighbors race mare. For being such a disgrace of a breeding I think he turned out quite well.


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## coffeegod

Dressage10135 said:


> Honestly, I believe that draft crosses were bred to try and add a little more density to your "average" horse. As for what are they good for? Dressage, jumping, trails, pulling a sleigh, therapy.. the list can go on. Just like almost ANY breed, there are some that are not so appealing conformation wise and some that are outstanding.
> 
> "Just do not try to tell me that these crosses do not produce more than a few **** footed, long backed, straight shouldered beasts with four foot long Roman-nosed heads that also come with a high tendency to have PSSM and IR problems. Obviously, people shop around for the better ones."
> 
> When you say something like that it just goes to show me you are clearly ignorant and/or misinformed. Go to any search engine and I will bet that you find more un-workable QH's than you will draft crosses.
> 
> By the way, my guy was an accidental breeding by an average "cull". His dad was a plow horse that got out and bred the neighbors race mare. For being such a disgrace of a breeding I think he turned out quite well.


:clap::happydance::clap::happydance::clap:

I really want to understand the OP's stance. I believe she is really saying that poor breeding is just poor breeding, regardless of the breed mix. If this is the case, why single out drafts and draft crosses? I wholeheartedly concur with the stance on poor breeding but fail to see how this directly links to horses such as mine. 

Hugo owes his existence to the racehorse industry. He was bred so some Thoroughbred broodmare could be separated from her foal and bred back. No, there wasn't much thought put into his breeding. The nurse mare industry is a horror show, much like the PMU farms used to be. My boy was one of 7 foals taken in by a rescue farm from a nurse mare factory.

He lucked out as did I. Watching him race across the pasture with his buddies is one of the highlights of my day.

P.S. Snowman was an average Joe horse on his way to the slaughterhouse when he was purchased for $80. He went on to be a premier showjumper back in the day. I'm pretty sure his parentage wasn't top drawer.


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## Spyder

Cherie said:


> It seems that many people, mostly newcomers to horses are now buying draft horses and crosses to ride. WHY?



Some are under the mistaken impression that this is America's answer to a warmblood, so it has become through false advertising that here is a cheap warmblood.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.


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## Dressage10135

Spyder said:


> *Some* are under the mistaken impression that this is America's answer to a warmblood, so it has become through false advertising that here is a cheap warmblood.
> 
> Nothing could be farther from the truth.


The key word there is SOME. This is not the case for everyone. Others simply want a larger horse for various reasons.


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## Cherie

Your horse is stunning and is probably the epitome of what everyone crossing drafts hopes for. He is lovely and built to also be a beautiful mover. 

But, please don't tell me I am ignorant or misinformed. I used to attend auctions from Minnesota and North Dakota to Texas and I saw truckload after truckload of the horses like I described heading to the slaughter houses in Illinois or Texas or the feedlots. Now, of course, they all go to Canada or Mexico. 

Many of the horses marketed as 'American Sporthorses' (that I have seen with my own eyes) could have been refugees from those trucks. I still maintain that you have a much higher percentage of culls when you breed opposites and a smaller number of horses (like the beautiful horse pictured) that come out with the 'best of both', so to speak. Setting a 'type' takes many generations of strict culling to obtain a predictable breed type. 

Again, JMHO.


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## Beauseant

OP, I don't know if you are speaking of draft crosses or drafts in general but am assuming the thread refers to drafts in general as the main culprit for the "fugly" genetic traits in crosses...

Our girl isn't a cross, she is a pure Belgian....she is not fugly, **** footed or any of those other colorful adjectives mentioned....


I think your "rant" on fugly drafts is funny....so, you don't like them. pardon us that do, but we don't care what you think.:lol:

Here's a video of our "fugly, **** footed, etc" draft...
I love her noble looking, held held high trot at 2 min. 40 seconds into the video... *sigh* Rather nice smooth stop also. She is such an ugly mover. NOT!

And watching her powerful body flying across those fields with her blond tail flying out behind her is a true testament to the OP's fugly draft statement. NOT!!!!

Beware the fugly draft video::clap:


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## Beling

This has been an interesting thread. I've wondered the same thing, for although I haven't seen many drafts (and nearly all were crosses) they all seemed so hard to ride. Hard to get going, hard to maneuver, hard to sit. They've all had very sweet natures, though, and that counts for a lot!


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## thesilverspear

I'm a bit confused. Why is this an argument (because it's the internet!)? Has the answer to your question, why do people like to ride drafts and draft-crosses, not yet been answered?

As far as "American warmbloods" or "American sporthorses" go, that's just a marketing ploy (like Gypsy Vanners -- hilarious) . From what I can see, people in the UK have been crossing drafts with light horses for donkey's years and they use them primarily for fox-hunting and the lower levels of eventing, as well as for people's easy-going pleasure horses.


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## Cherie

I don't know why you are so defensive. I have said over and over that I have liked the ones I have trained. I have said that I have seen many that are nice. I never said that I disliked draft horses or nice draft crosses. I never said they are all fugly. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I like ANY good horse. I just hate to see all of the culls going to Mexico.

I am NOT ranting and yes -- my question has been answered. It is just that everyone else tried to twist my words into a rant against draft stock in general and nothing could be farther from the truth. 

I did not mean to offend anyone and obviously, the irresponsible breeders are o not here on this forum anyway.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Cherie said:


> Setting a 'type' takes many generations of strict culling to obtain a predictable breed type.


I think you mean setting a "breed" takes many generations. Because mustangs are considered a "type," not a breed, and they are as different as snowflakes, even those from within the same herd, yet they've been around long enough to achieve breed status, the problem being that they don't necessarily breed true to any set type. 

I was always taught that a breed is an animal that has a set standard of features that you can look at and immediately tell what it is (i.e.-you look at the big 17.3hh gelding that boarded at my friend's barn for a while and even without knowing what his brand meant, you could tell he was a holsteiner, just because of the way he was built and the way he looked...knowing horse breeds won me a $20 bet off him, actually ). You can look at a QH, even a cull QH, and tell it's a QH because they have been bred to the same standard for generations. 

Conversely, a "type" is an animal that doesn't have a set standard of features, but has a set standard of breeding (usually crosses of known breeds) which can produce a variety of features, but is still bred for an intended purpose. For a non-horse example, take the maltese/poodle cross (or maltipoo). My mom has one because she needed a small, non-shedding lap dog as my dad is allergic to most dogs. Now, most people think of maltipoos as being cute little fluffy white things with all the best features of the maltese and the poodle. Not so with my mom's dog. She is built like a bulldog with short little legs, is extremely downhill, is about the same color as a dust bunny, has misaligned teeth and a slightly undershot jaw, and looks nothing like either her maltese or poodle parent. Does that change the fact that she functions quite well as a small, non-shedding lap dog that everyone adores? Not at all. She was bred to fit a certain niche and she does. Hang it if she doesn't match what people think of as a maltipoo (you have no idea how many people as what she is, at a complete loss as to what her breeding could be).

So, I think "American Sporthorse" or "Canadian Sporthorse" is a type because they are bred with a specific purpose in mind, not to produce necessarily a specific set of features. Yes, not all of them conform to that standard, but then again, not all QHs, TBs, what-have-yous necessarily conform to their standards either.

Just my two cents.


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## Beauseant

Cherie,

U didn't answer, what did you think of my fugly draft's video above....lol. 

as to why people ride drafts, how about this as a reason:




 
a nice quiet hack around the farm on a warm summer day!!!


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## smrobs

I lucked out completely with my older guy. His momma (bless her heart, she has a wonderful temperament and is strong and sturdy...but ugly as sin) was turned out with a good QH stud simply because he was only 14 hands and the owner "honestly didn't think he'd be able to breed her".

I know he's a very long way from perfect, but he is very trainable and rides nice. That's enough to make me happy, especially considering how he could have turned out.









With my yearling, I wasn't quite so lucky. He's ugly...I know he's ugly. But, he is sound and before it's all said and done, will make a good riding horse so he may have _some_ chance at finding/keeping a good home.


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## VelvetsAB

tinyliny said:


> I have heard just the opposite to that. That draft horses pull from the shoulder mostly , not so much pushing from behind. They do have massive shoulders_._


_A horse needs to use its front and back end to pull, not just one. Pulls with the front, pushes forwards with the back. Thats why they have collars, is so they can lean into them._



Masquerade said:


> If you watch draft pulling competitions you will see just how much they use their hind end with huge loads so it is definately not their shoulders that move the loads.


 
_I actually think that is a poor video to show, because the horse isn't actually pulling the weight like you would see MOST other horses pull. For whatever reason, he is doing that jumpy thing, but you wouldn't see that horse doing well in the fields, because of all the wasted motion and not a steady pulling movement. Without a steady pull, this horse could possibly make crooked furrows, which in turn means a field will not yeild to its full potential._


_Personally, I would prefer a draft-cross type horse...wether an actual warmblood or a mutt. The draft cross makes a good hunt horse, as they tend, although not neccessarily all, to be a bit more relaxed, but still have the light horse stamina. _

_Not to mention that I am a bit on the plump side, so would prefer something with a bigger butt then mine! :wink:_


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## Masquerade

VelvetsAB said:


> _I actually think that is a poor video to show, because the horse isn't actually pulling the weight like you would see MOST other horses pull. For whatever reason, he is doing that jumpy thing, but you wouldn't see that horse doing well in the fields, because of all the wasted motion and not a steady pulling movement. Without a steady pull, this horse could possibly make crooked furrows, which in turn means a field will not yeild to its full potential._


He is doing "that jumpy thing" because it is a competition and these horses are pulling close to the most they can pull. That is why I chose that video, to show that with extremely heavy loads they use their hind end more than their front end. Of course they would not do this while plowing a field because they do not need to work as hard as if they are pulling their maximum amount of weight but they are not all used for plowing fields. Drafts have been used for pulling cut down trees out of forrests that vehicles can't get into, pulling fire engines and other very heavy carts in the old days and many other uses where they are strictly pulling large weights.
The collar is around their neck because that it the only place to put it on their body that it won't slide back or hurt the horse.


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## themacpack

Well, to give a very simple answer - for exactly the same reasons people want other breeds.


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## smrobs

VelvetsAB said:


> _A horse needs to use its front and back end to pull, not just one. Pulls with the front, pushes forwards with the back. Thats why they have collars, is so they can lean into them._
> 
> *Exactly, they pull from both the front and the back. If they only pulled from one, they would only be half as strong as they really are. A good team of horses can pull as much weight as a truck can, sometimes more. *
> 
> _I actually think that is a poor video to show, because the horse isn't actually pulling the weight like you would see MOST other horses pull. For whatever reason, he is doing that jumpy thing, but you wouldn't see that horse doing well in the fields, because of all the wasted motion and not a steady pulling movement. Without a steady pull, this horse could possibly make crooked furrows, which in turn means a field will not yeild to its full potential._


I agree, that is a horrible example of a true pulling team. They do pull all that weight, but they only pull it for a few dozen feet. A real work horse would never lunge into the harness like that, they ease into the pressure before putting their full force into it. I don't have any good pictures of horses doing work because we always used mules for our plowing and such.

However, this is exactly how you want a real working team to move out. They are relaxed in a nice, steady walk. They ease into the collar when you ask them to go.


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## thesilverspear

In fairness to Cherie, I don' t think she was criticizing any individual forum member's horse or calling it "fugly." She even said she liked the dun horse, whose pic his owner posted. In fairness to everyone else, if you post a thread basically saying, "I don't understand why people ride X breed," you're asking for defensive responses, because people will think you are slagging their beloved horse. Even if you're not slagging any specific horse, people will take it personally because it's the interweb and this is fairly standard internet behaviour.  

Anyway, I enjoyed writing up what these horses are good for (and conversely, what they're not good for). I think it is important to be able to evaluate a horse's strengths and weaknesses in a fairly objective manner.


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## mbender

smrobs said:


> I lucked out completely with my older guy. His momma (bless her heart, she has a wonderful temperament and is strong and sturdy...but ugly as sin) was turned out with a good QH stud simply because he was only 14 hands and the owner "honestly didn't think he'd be able to breed her".
> 
> I know he's a very long way from perfect, but he is very trainable and rides nice. That's enough to make me happy, especially considering how he could have turned out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With my yearling, I wasn't quite so lucky. He's ugly...I know he's ugly. But, he is sound and before it's all said and done, will make a good riding horse so he may have _some_ chance at finding/keeping a good home.


OMG robs! He is far from ugly! I love Rafe. He's gorgeous! 

As for drafts and crosses, when I was younger I rode with a friend on her Belgian and it was winter. Was the greatest time ever! Just plowing through that snow. 

I never wanted a draft myself. Yes I did think they were ugly, but that was pure kid ignorance. I now have a soft spot for them! I have a friend who has a FresianxTb stallion. He is breathtaking and has a beautiful flowing gait. Ugh! My bf trims huge Belgians and they are gorgeous! Someday I would love to own a draft or cross.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mbender

smrobs said:


> I lucked out completely with my older guy. His momma (bless her heart, she has a wonderful temperament and is strong and sturdy...but ugly as sin) was turned out with a good QH stud simply because he was only 14 hands and the owner "honestly didn't think he'd be able to breed her".
> 
> I know he's a very long way from perfect, but he is very trainable and rides nice. That's enough to make me happy, especially considering how he could have turned out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With my yearling, I wasn't quite so lucky. He's ugly...I know he's ugly. But, he is sound and before it's all said and done, will make a good riding horse so he may have _some_ chance at finding/keeping a good home.


OMG robs! He is far from ugly! I love Rafe. He's gorgeous! 

As for drafts and crosses, when I was younger I rode with a friend on her Belgian and it was winter. Was the greatest time ever! Just plowing through that snow. 

I never wanted a draft myself. Yes I did think they were ugly, but that was pure kid ignorance. I now have a soft spot for them! Don't get me started on the Gypsy! I have a friend who has a FresianxTb stallion. He is breathtaking and has a beautiful flowing gait. Ugh! My bf trims huge Belgians and they are gorgeous! Someday I would love to own a draft or cross. I personally think they would make a great mount and can be taught anything a horse can do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie

I also think Rob's big cross is nice looking. She hasn't put up a photo of the yearling that she calls 'ugly'. But, if he is functionally well put together, I am sure someone will pay a good price for him if he is well trained to ride and gentle. It is just that the really fugly ones usually do not get the opportunity to get tried because few people will buy them untrained and few qualified people will take the chance on them and train them right.

If they come out with the **** feet and the super long back, they are pretty compromised. If they get the extremely huge head with a really severe Roman nose it is usually just too great of a handicap to find a decent buyer.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Cherie said:


> It is just that the really fugly ones usually do not get the opportunity to get tried because few people will buy them untrained and few qualified people will take the chance on them and train them right.
> 
> If they come out with the **** feet and the super long back, they are pretty compromised. If they get the extremely huge head with a really severe Roman nose it is usually just too great of a handicap to find a decent buyer.


I will agree with this, actually. My BO, who sold me Aires, has Aires' half-sister, Piper for sale. She is one of the fugly ones, not overly so, but she's still fugly. Super long back, short thick neck, extremely downhill (even for a two-year-old) and hasn't evened out...and added to it she came off the trailer from Canada with her left front leg twisted out at a 45 degree angle. She's usable as a light trail horse, but that's about it. The BO has only had one person (that I know of) show any interest in her and that was my friend who boards there as well. She was going to get Piper as a trail horse for her husband, but decided against it after trying to work with Piper and they just didn't click at all.

Most people would never have guess that this (Piper):








And this (Aires):








Came from this same sire (only pic I have of him):









In that pic of Piper, she is standing on level ground. She really is that butt high.


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## coffeegod

Cherie said:


> If they get the extremely huge head with a really severe Roman nose it is usually just too great of a handicap to find a decent buyer.


Srsly?? You wondered why people thought you were attacking their horses? Statements such as this, ma'am.

* I * happen to like Roman noses. * I * happen to like big heads and stocky horses. Genetic defects like **** foot might be a reason to discount an animal but if one is looking for a performance or hack horse, I doubt seriously that a Roman nose would send a potential buyer screaming in the other direction.

Sweeping generalizations seldom, if ever, hold up under close scrutiny.


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## Courtney

I think people buy drafts for the same reason they buy other breeds - they want to. I'm in the process of buying a pacing Standardbred and you wouldn't believe the reaction I get from people. The more common ones are:

"A Standardbred? How ugly!" 
"A PACING Standardbred? You can't ride that!"
"That thing will never be good for riding!"
"Why don't you get an Arabian. They're much prettier."
"Uhm, you're in Alberta. Buy a Quarter Horse."

I LIKE Standardbreds. I want to own this particular mare because I love her and have been searching for her for 12 years. Personally, I like riding pacing horses. Once you get used to it, it's a great gait to sit to.

Like I said, I think it's the same for people who buy Drafts, or Arabians, or Thoroughbreds, or anything else. They like the breed and they want to own one. It may not be the prettiest horse, but pretty is as pretty does. I'd much prefer a 'fugly' horse that will take care of me and allow me to have fun, then to have a really pretty horse that I'm scared to death to be around.


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## VelvetsAB

Masquerade said:


> The collar is around their neck because that it the only place to put it on their body that it won't slide back or hurt the horse.


_Draft horses are STILL used for plowing fields and pulling lumber out of the bush, but I have NEVER seen a horse do the jumpy stride. It is a horrible example, because it is a weight pulling competition, and not just a team of horses actually plowing a field._


_Sooo...all this time, people were putting a collar on their horses, even though it is a useless piece of equipment, since the horse pulls with its back end? No, they haven't. They put it on because in a NORMAL situation, a horse would lean into the collar and push at the same time._

_(Horse collar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)_

_And just to really prove your theory wrong...why would people use just wooden yoke's on oxen teams (way back when)? They didn't use a harness, just the wooden yokes, for the oxen to pull the plow/cart with._


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## lovesmyhawse

Because there is.... just something.....something elegant... something impressive... something awesome.... and utterly gorgeous about a draft cross. Yes... they are often not great beginner horses. Yes, they can take a more skillfull hand to train due to their size. But... in the right hands... with the right person.... they are just WOW!!!. I LOVE my draft cross! She's the best thing to ever happen to me!


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## MacabreMikolaj

I think people have to look past their own insensitivity's an understand what Cherie is actually asking. It's a valid question - in GENERAL, the average Draft cross isn't going to be good for much except pleasure riding unless s/he's been a part of a specialized program or the breeder gets really lucky. 

Shay-la is a perfect case in point - bought Eve as a yearling (ClydeXTB). Her sire was 16.3hh and her dam was 17.1hh. Shay-la, at 5'9", wanted a BIG horse that wasn't quite as heavy as a Draft for light riding and a bit of showing. Well, Eve STOPPED growing at 2 years old. She's now 4.5 years old and she's stopped dead at 15.2hh (though her hips are 15.3hh, YAY DOWNHILL!). She's filled out a lot, but she's still only 2 inches taller then the rest of the horses Shay-la was tired of feeling small on! She's also got GOD awful feet that are a constant headache, and the realization that because of them, she's never going to be very competitive despite turning out fairly athletic with a penchant for jumping. Her temperament is a bit of a crapshoot, she's fairly docile but thick as mud and takes forever to teach anything to. All in all, a fairly disappointing experience for Shay-la who's been "dreaming of a Draft" her whole life. She's leased Eve out and has gone back to the 13.3hh pony, be damned anyone who thinks she looks silly!

There are some REALLY nice Draft crosses that grow up into exceptional athletes. But to go and take ol' Bessie, your retired QH mare and breed her to as Percheron in hopes of competing at high level Dressage is really just the worst idea. I think Cherie's point is even moreso a bad idea then most crosses, because a bad Draft cross can end up so heavy and uncompetitive, they just take an even faster route to the meatman due to their weight. The average bad QH/Arab cross can still have a pretty good career at local competition, they're light and scrappy enough, it's rare to have conformation SO bad they can't compete at local fairs and rodeos. Unfortunately, the same isn't generally true for bad Draft crosses - you just get a big lug that can cost a LOT to feed and be difficult to handle from sheer size and intimidation. And you can get a pretty penny shipping them as well, so guess what most people resort to?

I love Drafts, and I love a lot of Draft crosses, but it is definitely an unusual phenomenon that's sweeping North America and I agree, mostly, that it seems to be due to people wanting "cheap Warmbloods". Every SINGLE Draft cross is now referred to as a "sporthorse". Heads up people, a QH/Percheron/Welsh is NOT a sporthorse. Everyone has dollar signs in their eyes thinking they're going to make the big bucks convincing some poor soul that Dobbin is just as competitive as the $50,000 Hanoverian for sale. 

Like Shay-la, some people DO just want "bigger" and Draft crosses tend to fit that bill perfectly because you tend to get height with less bulk and so a better horse more suited to riding. I think Cherie is just annoyed (much as I am) about this make believe trend that any Draft cross is a "sporthorse" ready to win a Grand Prix for you.


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## Cherie

Thank you MM. Evidently you have said it better than I have been able to do. 

If they all (or even half of them) came out looking like Drssage 10135's good looking horse, I could see a real market for an 'American Sporthorse'. Sadly though, so many end up on one of the big trucks I have seen headed to the meat plant. 

To me, it is just like the halter horse breeders that breed for a World Champion Halter horse using stock that does not ride. I have seen whole truckloads of 'culls' go to slaughter without even being registered to get the 1 or 2 that was 'show quality'. They just 'throw away' the culls and the ones that are double HYPP positive.

About a month ago, I watched a Registered Paint breeder "dump' a big trailer-load of 'solids' at the local sale-barn without papers or even registration applications. All but 1 or 2 went to a feed lot. He did not want them registered (where they may have found a home a little easier) because then they would show up on the 'sire list' of his stallion and he could not brag that he got 90% color.


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## DejaVu

Crossing drafts with dainty and althletic sporthorses, you get a big warmblood look. Although it may not be a true registered warmblood, it still has the giant build, and big fancy movements. 

My friend has a Percheron X TB. He's gorgeous, and has a big sailing stride on him. Perfect for the Hunter/Eq ring. Giant, height wise as well. Absalutely great horse, and I honestly wouldn't mind a horse like him. I, too, am more inclined to QH's and Paint's, but I prefer the big guys with lots of Throroughbred in them, but still has enough QH or Paint in the bloodline to still be considered full bred.


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## Stan

A large number of the horses in NZ have clydsdale mixed to varing degrees in the bred. I think it comes from the high country stations where the horse with thicker bone was more suited to the work required of them.
My horses Stella has clydesdale and all others in her mix. Not pretty but very strong and solid in the bone. Trekking is what she is used for, she could be a little tall as one other comment stated picking up the cobwebs going through the bush. The compensating factor is the heavy bone when in the hill country.
My other horse was clydesdale with TB and station bred which put her more in the clyde than any thing else. But what a smooth mover, very forgiving, but she was to big for me. Needed a ladder.


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## deezal

I'm from Australia which I'm assuming is plenty different to each country.

However we see a lot of draft (clydie x's) around at pony club, even more so at adult riders and becoming even more seen on the eventing scene.

They are the perfect horse for a lot of people, they're quiet, great to educate, great to learn on and are very versatile in the fact that they are almost perfect for any pony club/adult riders disciplines.

You could probably teach them almost anything, and they would be more then suitable to a point.

But of course, if you have quite high aspirations in any discipline it would only make sense to pick a different breed in any discipline as they probably arn't THAT versatile and able to do it.


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## thesilverspear

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I think people have to look past their own insensitivity's an understand what Cherie is actually asking. It's a valid question - in GENERAL, the average Draft cross isn't going to be good for much except pleasure riding unless s/he's been a part of a specialized program or the breeder gets really lucky.
> 
> Shay-la is a perfect case in point - bought Eve as a yearling (ClydeXTB). Her sire was 16.3hh and her dam was 17.1hh. Shay-la, at 5'9", wanted a BIG horse that wasn't quite as heavy as a Draft for light riding and a bit of showing. Well, Eve STOPPED growing at 2 years old. She's now 4.5 years old and she's stopped dead at 15.2hh (though her hips are 15.3hh, YAY DOWNHILL!). She's filled out a lot, but she's still only 2 inches taller then the rest of the horses Shay-la was tired of feeling small on! She's also got GOD awful feet that are a constant headache, and the realization that because of them, she's never going to be very competitive despite turning out fairly athletic with a penchant for jumping. Her temperament is a bit of a crapshoot, she's fairly docile but thick as mud and takes forever to teach anything to. All in all, a fairly disappointing experience for Shay-la who's been "dreaming of a Draft" her whole life. She's leased Eve out and has gone back to the 13.3hh pony, be damned anyone who thinks she looks silly!
> 
> There are some REALLY nice Draft crosses that grow up into exceptional athletes. But to go and take ol' Bessie, your retired QH mare and breed her to as Percheron in hopes of competing at high level Dressage is really just the worst idea. I think Cherie's point is even moreso a bad idea then most crosses, because a bad Draft cross can end up so heavy and uncompetitive, they just take an even faster route to the meatman due to their weight. The average bad QH/Arab cross can still have a pretty good career at local competition, they're light and scrappy enough, it's rare to have conformation SO bad they can't compete at local fairs and rodeos. Unfortunately, the same isn't generally true for bad Draft crosses - you just get a big lug that can cost a LOT to feed and be difficult to handle from sheer size and intimidation. And you can get a pretty penny shipping them as well, so guess what most people resort to?
> 
> I love Drafts, and I love a lot of Draft crosses, but it is definitely an unusual phenomenon that's sweeping North America and I agree, mostly, that it seems to be due to people wanting "cheap Warmbloods". Every SINGLE Draft cross is now referred to as a "sporthorse". Heads up people, a QH/Percheron/Welsh is NOT a sporthorse. Everyone has dollar signs in their eyes thinking they're going to make the big bucks convincing some poor soul that Dobbin is just as competitive as the $50,000 Hanoverian for sale.
> 
> Like Shay-la, some people DO just want "bigger" and Draft crosses tend to fit that bill perfectly because you tend to get height with less bulk and so a better horse more suited to riding. I think Cherie is just annoyed (much as I am) about this make believe trend that any Draft cross is a "sporthorse" ready to win a Grand Prix for you.


That's the thing -- these horses vary widely. As you would expect from a "cross-breed" that could be a cross between any number of breeds. The two draft-crosses I've owned couldn't be more different from the way you described Eve (who I think is very cute, by the way, and I've ogled her pictures). They're smart, willing, friendly, trainable, sound, and far more athletic and versatile than the Quarter Horse I had. Too bad I wasn't on this forum four-five years ago when I was trying to sell my youngster, Dante. If Shay-La was searching for a horse then and didn't mind shipping a greenbroke one from Colorado, I think she really would have enjoyed him.  

I suppose I simply don't see a "make-believe trend that any Draft-cross is a 'sporthorse' ready to win a Grand Prix for you." All the seriously ambitious riders I've known -- in the US and the UK -- own things suited to their ambitions, which aren't draft-crosses. I have never met these people who think their little draft cross "sporthorse" is their next Grand Prix prospect. Never. As I said in an earlier post, draft-crosses are a dime a dozen in the foxhunting and lower level dressage and eventing scenes, and also common faces in riding schools all across the country. Their overall tendency to be sound, solid, and sensible explains their popularity in Britain as foxhunters and eventers. Especially for amateur owner/riders, who might not want something super hot and sparky (although some draft-crosses are hotter than others. Mine on rare occasions likes to remind you the other half is in fact TB), but want to run a little cross-country course and not feel as though they're taking their life into their hands. These horses are not marketed as anything other than what they are. In a sense, they are the "poor man's" warmblood, when the "poor man" in question isn't likely to go much beyond Second Level dressage anyway, so what do they need a $50,000 warmblood for?


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## ElizabethClem

"I have never met these people who think their little draft cross "sporthorse" is their next Grand Prix prospect."

Saddly barn i've been toohad two boarders a mother and daughter pair, the daughter had a BelgianXFriesianXQuarter Horse, and the mother had a Percheron X Thoroughbred, they thought those where the best horses ever created on earth and called them both American Warmbloods, the Mom's horse was registered to the society the daughters wasn't, the horses where very sweet, but really where not going to get them where they wanted to go cause they just were not flat out built for it, the girl wanted to do jumpers, but didn't ride him nearly enough for him to almost dieing after a lesson, and the mom thought she was a hot shot rider and in reality she was only a pretty amature.


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## thesilverspear

Morons are everywhere, and not limited to draft-cross owners. I've run across all kinds of balmy horse owners who think their horse is going to excel at something it's flat-out not suitable for. Mainly, them riding it.


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## Indyhorse

4 of my 8 horses are draft crosses. While each of them have their own conformation flaws, I don't think any of them are a total travesty or would be classed as fugly. Most people who know my horses, and quite a few people even on these boards who have seen pictures, are always very complimentary about their looks. (though Fiona sure was questionable for a while :lol:, she does seem to have outgrown the worst of her uglies, and even I have to concede she is becoming fairly attractive). 

I think you run into the same issues with people breeding draft crosses as you run into anywhere with anyone breeding horses of any kind - if you are breeding poor quality stock, you will have poor quality foals. 

Living only 20 minutes from a very large weekly auction with a substantial number of horses that go to slaughter, I have to say I certainly don't see a prevalence of drafts and draft crosses in the kill pens - in fact I see very, very few. And a LOT of people ride draft crosses in my area, so it's not like they are uncommon around here. I could say in honesty that 80% of the horses in the killpens in Shipsy are broken-down Standardbreds. Another 10% are horses that are horribly injured, and you will occasionally see a full draft in that 10% - last week there was a Belgian with an eye out. The other 10% might be potentially nice horses that probably shouldn't be there. They usually still get purchased by private buyers rather than go to slaughter. Around here people are not afraid to buy out of the kill pen. I got my own mule out of the kill pens.

My first draft cross was a Belgian/QH mare that really sold me on the draft horse personality. You could do anything with that mare, and put anyone on her back. No, crosses are not all created equal and I have seen plenty of flaky, flighty draft crosses, but that doesn't mean that the generalization about temperament is a rumor. They do tend to be steadier, calmer, safer horses over-all, and since my long term plans are to run a therapeutic riding program, sticking with draft crosses was an easy choice for me.

I personally prefer riding draft crosses for myself, because I am quite tall. I am reasonably in shape and not terribly heavy, but I have long legs. I spent most of my life riding 15hh Appys and QHs and always felt like I looked a little ungainly on them, they didn't have enough barrel to take up my leg. My draft crosses do. That makes me feel more comfortable, and I like that.


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## Golden Horse

thesilverspear said:


> Never. As I said in an earlier post, draft-crosses are a dime a dozen in the foxhunting and lower level dressage and eventing scenes, and also common faces in riding schools all across the country. Their overall tendency to be sound, solid, and sensible explains their popularity in Britain as foxhunters and eventers. Especially for amateur owner/riders, who might not want something super hot and sparky (although some draft-crosses are hotter than others. Mine on rare occasions likes to remind you the other half is in fact TB), but want to run a little cross-country course and not feel as though they're taking their life into their hands. These horses are not marketed as anything other than what they are. In a sense, they are the "poor man's" warmblood, when the "poor man" in question isn't likely to go much beyond Second Level dressage anyway, so what do they need a $50,000 warmblood for?



But then again in the UK horses are still bred with an eye to purpose rather than pedigree, or at least that used to be the case. Cross a solid little native type mare with a TB and you either get a solid large pony, or a super fast gaming pony. Cross a draft and a TB and you either have a hunter or a poorman's warmblood, or a solid sensible reliable citizen for a riding school.


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## Speed Racer

I've always loved the look of the heavy hunters they have in the UK.


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## thesilverspear

Aye, I think they (or the good ones) pretty much do what it says on the tin.  They're of more solid bone than TBs and other light horses, which suits people who happen to prefer heavier horses (like me), but more athletic and quicker than most cobs and full drafts.


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## Cat

There is a drive today that made me remember the other reason why there are a lot of draft crosses in our area. A lot of people around here like to ride and drive - and usually heavy carts, not light buggies. So a lot of people who do that either get mules or draft crosses because they are strong enough to pull, yet a bit lighter build that makes them more comfortable for riding.


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## mramsay

Why do I have a percheron- QH? (definately more percheron than QH). We bought Caddilac as a second horse for my hubby who is a bigger guy, who wanted a horse that he could go hunting with and could pull out a 1000 + lb moose out of the bush. We wanted something with a wonderful personality, an easy keeper, that we also liked to look at. I have always loved bigger heavier horses, just a personal preference. My own personal reg. paint it 16.1 ish. Caddy is closer to 17hh I would think. Very few people ride drafts/ crosses around here, and people pull over on the side of the road to see her, EVERYONE wanst to pet her. If we are out riding without her, people come to there doors and ask-where is that big horse? She is the most rock-steady sensible horse I have ever met, and she will fare well in our cold northern climate. She has a wonderfully broad back that is just perfect for riding bareback, and she has the most loftiest looking (yet smooth trot) She thinks she is a TWH or something, lol. We want something that will help us drag our christmas tree home, or go ski joring (I realize that most horses could do this, but she is built to work, and loves to work). We wanted a horse that was versitile to ride, pull, and play- that she is. Here are a few pictures of Caddy 
Added in my gelding too, just because he is my baby--and they kind of match (we wont be hitching them up as a team though, they would be going in circles, with Blitz on the inside, lol  I would like to add, Caddy was a PMU foal, I am happy that she found her place in life as a riding horse, rather than on someones dinner plate. BTW my mom is in the two pictures holding Caddy, she is TERRIFIED of horses, hehe


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## BCtazzie

My new horse is the first Draft cross I've had. from what I have seen in the last 2 weeks (also the first 2 weeks with him) I am impressed. I was expecting a lot work seeing that he has seen the worst of humans. beaten, starved, tail broken, I was expecting him to be the opposite to what he is. 

A true rep of 5 horse. Thus far has been one of the EASIEST I've dealt with to train and yet he has all the excuses in the world not to be. 

I don't expect him to be a top level horse, I'm happy with a good all rounder. I hope to be eventing him next year, don't know what level we will get to but if his round yard escaping skills are to go by, we should get to Advanced no worries.


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## Fellpony

Even in this country ( Uk ) we are getting lots of irresposible breeding, leading to a glut of poorer quality horses and ponies. It seems to go on what ever the current fashion is ie when European warmbloods were becomming popular and fetching high prices. Everybody started breeding them.

The coloured gypsy horses became popular as confidence givers, they will fetch a high price so everybody is now breeding these, leading to a lot of poorer quality foals on the market.

Our common Hunter is Irish draft x Thoroughbred but these are now marketed as Irish Sport Horses or the Cleaveland Bay x Thoroughbred as the English Sporthorse.

I guess at the end of the day, the horse world has become a less expensive and elitest industry and people will buy whatever they are looking for at a price they can afford. We get some weird crossed like Shire x TB x Cob. why?????? TB's are popular here too rejects from the racing industry.

So long as the person who owns the horse is happy, whos business is it anyway.


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## CessBee

I have ridden a clyde-tb cross who's full brother is jumping grand prix competitively in America.
If the cross works out well, you can get a solid athletic horse.
The one I rode had the biggest most athletic canter I have ever had the chance to ride and he isn't even 16hh.


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## EighteenHands

Everyone brings up very good points and well thought arguments...

I ride a Morgan/Percheron cross and I am a plus size rider. Having said that, I have also ridden quarter horses, and arabs as well. All of the horses I have ridden were all equally capable of carrying me...so why choose a draft cross?

My draft cross Campbell is the love of my life. He is gorgeous, athletic, and built like a tank. He carries me well, rides and drives and does equally well. He is fun, loving, and very flashy. He will never be a stadium jumper, high level dressage competitor, or an endurance racer...but I will never be any of those things either. I go out on long trail rides, do low level hunter paces, and hack around the backyard....and Cam and I have a ball together. 

Why is he the right mount for me? He is wide, short backed, compact and stong (at 15 hands) this is an ideal confirmation for a plus size rider. He also has great stamina (when he's in shape) so we can canter/gallop through the woods together for a long while before he even breaks a sweat! 

Yes, draft horses we bred specifically to pull...but with selective breeding you can pick and choose characteristics from different breeds and come out with a horse that is perfect for you. 


I am also a believer in the athletic ability of pure drafts. I have seen percherons and shires in low level jumping competitions, gypsy vanners in western pleasure competitions, and many other draft breeds in everything from dressage tests to versitility competitions.


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## DraftyAiresMum

I was talking to one of the boarders at our barn whose belgian/QH gelding passed away last weekend (colicked and twisted his gut, poor guy). He's in the market for a new horse and is looking for another half draft. I gave him a copy of Whisper22's ad for Persia on Craigslist (we're in AZ as well) and he had one comment that made me go "huh." Now, keep in mind that this is a big guy. Probably 5'9"-5'10" and close to 300lbs. He said that Persia looked a bit light on bone for him. I asked him to elaborate and he said it had nothing to do with the HEIGHT of the horse (Persia is 15.3hh, his gelding was 16hh) and everything to do with the amount of bone it has. A more substantially-boned horse will be more likely to be able to carry his size without worrying about injuring the horse. So, there's another reason someone would want a half-draft...the amount of bone they possess.


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## MNCOWGIRL

We have 6 belgians, we use them for ranch work, cutting hay, seeding, plowing and feeding hay during the winter, we also give the occasional hay ride. I'am actually part of the Mid MN Draft horse club andwe have a previous member who taught one of his many draft horses to ride. Now he did it because he was an entertainer, he was paid money to put on shows and things. And in my experience draft horses yes may be bigger and less likely to be used for any other work but they are actually very sturdy animals and can be used for anything a saddle horse can be. Yes it looks different but it mainly depends on the owner and what they wish to do. there really arent andy restrictions to what draft horses can do.


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## prairiewindlady

In this area (keep in mind I am seeing more of the jumping/eventing side of things) a draft cross is the poor man's warmblood. They are also popular because it is thought that they are typically bombproof. My brother events his 15.1h Section D Welsh Cob mare and EVERYONE (without even asking) labels her as a draft cross. I often overhear people saying things like "Look how that horse flies over those jumps! I want a draft cross someday..." ...when we correct them and inform them that she is actually a Cob, they don't seem to know what to think. Instead they say, "Well she is beautiful!" (no comments on her athleticism after that)


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## Beauseant

Pics of a superb pleasure riding horse: calm, obedient, sturdy, and incredibly sure footed.

Epona, 10 yr. old registered Belgian 







































She is the perfect trail/pleasure horse!!!!


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## NittanyEquestrian

I agree with the comments about "poor man's warmblood" but nobody really explained why they are sought after. Generally a "PMW" is a cross between a hotter breed and a draft therefore ending with a "warm" blood. Which pretty much means someone wants the try and athleticism of a TB but with heavier bone and a little more "amateur friendly" in the personality department. As someone said they actually run the range from spooky and hot to total dead head personalities but on an average they are saner and calmer than say a TB. Also, TBs are not usually noted for excellent dressage as they tend to be very flat and lack some of the elevation and suspension that make true warmbloods shine in the dressage ring. Adding the draft blood who are known for their big action to the longer sweeping strided TB and sometimes you get lucky and get horses with big lofty movement as well as the extension needed for dressage. 

True drafts are also some of the most comfortable things to ride. I could ride a drafter all day bareback in any gait and never move, you put me on a TB or a pony and I'm flailing all over the place because they are narrower and there is less to wrap your leg around. 

The other thing to consider is that when bred correctly for strong conformation (short backed, well laid back shoulders and good bone) they can carry the larger rider more easily than a 15 hand quarter horse for longer without an injury or breakdown. Most fox hunters are looking for a horse that can carry 200-300 lb grown men over crazy terrain and fences and when it comes down to it a well put together draft cross is going to be able to cover the marshy terrain and handle some crazy and awkward landings after fences bearing 200+ pounds better than a TB who is notorious for being thinner boned with weaker hooves and more incidences of leg/tendon injury. While I appreciate that this is a generalization and not all draft crosses are robots that never get hurt nor that all TBs are hot house flowers that are always hurt but trends and averages within the breeds shows that draft crosses are generally hardier and more enduring under less than ideal conditions than TBs not to mention they tend to be calmer and more steady. 

There might be a reason that 90% of police horses are draft crosses...


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## its lbs not miles

Well, to regress back to the original question. Why do people ride drafts or draft crosses?
Because, contrary to what many people seem to think, many of the "draft" breeds were in fact riding horses that over time people started using to pull rather than ride. e.g. Percherons, Shires and Friesians were all riding horses (Friesians still are for the most part). And dispite what some people seem to think, yes, they can carry greater weight on their back. That is what they were bred and used for. But as the day of the armored warrior faded, the need for horses that could carry a man in armor and the heavy saddle needed to support both, along armor for the horse at times, passed into history (by the end of the 1700's the breastplate was about all that was left). But these large horse breeds remained, so they were put to use in other trades where their size and strength could give good service.
Why do we ride these larger horses vs some of the smaller saddle horses? Because in many cases the saddle horse breeds have been bred into a less sturdy and dependable animal than the breed was originally. e.g. Saddlebreds were once a very hardy, stable, gaited horse that, along with the Morgan, was so ultra dependable and durable that for almost 100 years they (and the horses that ultimately became the Saddlebred....e.g. "Kentucky Saddle horse, Saddler", etc....it was called a variety of names in the early years) were the darlings of the Cavalry in the US. Or you can look at even older breeds. The TB of 300 years ago might not have been as fast as some bred today, but they were a more sturdy and durable breed back then.
Fortunately my belove QH continues to be favored for what it has always done best (working), so that even for show it's worked. That means breeders have a need to keep it the sturdy and robust breed that it started out as. But the same is not true for many.
I love my Friesian crosses. They are little smaller than a Friesian, strong and easy going. In the 42 years I've been riding and 39 that I've been training my current mare is the easiest horse I've ever worked with (and also the smartest). Although I'll confess that prior to her the easiest had been my first QH. 

I could just as easily ask why do people insist on wanting horses that high strung and more fragile?

Hopefully people select a horse that best fits their need. I'm not what some would call a heavy person (holidays are about here so I'll add in my holiday weight :lol at 5'9" and 158-165lbs, but because I like to ride long distances I wanted a horse that could easily carry more weight. At 1360 lbs my mare can easily carry me, my saddle and 100lbs of gear 40 miles day, for days if needed, with no ill effect. If I'd required that much out of my QH she would have shown signs from the effects of the load. She easily did the miles, but we traveled with a lighter load back then. I'm older now (what was I thinking when I took up long distant riding again? :lol and like to take an air mattress along with a couple other light weight creature comforts. So my larger draft crosses met my needs better than todays lighter breeds.
(she also jumps higher than my QHs or TWH did....unfortunately :lol: )


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## Golden Horse

This is a percheron/tb x Saddlebred who wouldn't want him


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## kevinshorses

I've ridden some draft and draft crosses. Of the full drafts one was the nicest moving horse of any breed I've ever been on. The other had a trot so rough I didn't know wether to go to the chiro or the dentist after I got done. 

The half drafts were more consistent. They weren't real quick but if I roped anything on them it was darn sure coming with me! When the going got steep or the work got too fast they ran out of air and quit on me faster than the stock horses but that's to be expected. Like an NFL linebacker vs. a marathoner.

Many people think that a big horse doesn't need to be as well conditioned as a smaller horse to pack them around but I have not found this to be true.


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## Endurance Chica

Well in my case, I wasnt really looking for a draft, but when someone wanted me to work thier 17h percheron TB cross I fell in love with her. Sweetest temperament, picks things up quick, and she is a perfect balance of laid back with some pep when I ask for it. She has so much fun and gets excited when we start doing something new. Yes she has a big head and even bigger clodhopper feet, but her personality has won me over. She is the perfect babysitter for her green owner and couldnt be more gentle and affectionate. We have an amazing bond together. When she became for sale I just new I had to make her mine.


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## its lbs not miles

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I was talking to one of the boarders at our barn whose belgian/QH gelding passed away last weekend (colicked and twisted his gut, poor guy). He's in the market for a new horse and is looking for another half draft. I gave him a copy of Whisper22's ad for Persia on Craigslist (we're in AZ as well) and he had one comment that made me go "huh." Now, keep in mind that this is a big guy. Probably 5'9"-5'10" and close to 300lbs. He said that Persia looked a bit light on bone for him. I asked him to elaborate and he said it had nothing to do with the HEIGHT of the horse (Persia is 15.3hh, his gelding was 16hh) and everything to do with the amount of bone it has. A more substantially-boned horse will be more likely to be able to carry his size without worrying about injuring the horse. So, there's another reason someone would want a half-draft...the amount of bone they possess.


And he is very correct. A great many of the lighter horses today have smaller cannon bones than their breed started out with. TB for one, Saddlebreds for another. It's the result of years of breeding in certain traits at the expense of the overall horse. That's one reason some people to cross the lighter riding horses with drafts. It usually results in larger cannon bones. 
I've found that some breeders are trying to create more solid animals by selective breeding within the breed (kudos to them). But these breeders tend to be in minority. I know some more solid TB used for non racing sport (e.g. polo), but they gave up the height of the racing TB and are in the 15-16 hand range vs 16+.
Would love to be able to go back 125 years when Saddlebreds were sturdy and being 5 gaited was the norm for them and then bring them back so that we'd still have them as the norm. There are old Cavalry troopers spinning in their graves over what has changed in their beloved saddle horse.


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## Stan

This has been a very interesting read for me. My two horses are and were draft cross. Savanah grew to big for me but had no malice in her at all. Very steady with a long easy movment even at a trot. Stella my present has also got draft in her breding, she to is steady but a little prone to spook. The kind of riding I do is trekking which for those that don't know the NZ slang would be endurance, but the horse has to walk. Up or down the hills which takes strength, and stamina. A large number of our horses are what we call station bred a cross with clydesdale for the bone size and some TB mixed in and over the years had become the NZ working horse on the high country sheep stations. I guess what I am saying is its good to see the discussion on the bigger horses. And this is my input to the discussion. THe biger horse may need more conditioning but over all I think, out lasts the finer bred when it comes to stamina. Could be wrong, but I have noticed on the longer treks its the finer and TB that generally fall by the wayside quiskest, with exceptions.


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## Fatty Lumpkin

I come from a culture that is very used to adults riding what you guys in Mainland UK call ponies and we call horses.

QH are well up to a lot of weight, as are all of the UK mountain and moorland breeds, but so many folk will tell you that you need 16hh plus if you weight more than 10 stone, when a good Island bred Shetland can carry 10 stone.

A 14hh Icelandic can carry 17 stone.

Why ride a draught horse???? maybe the temperament of the draught attracts folk.


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## BCtazzie

I am on draft cross due to two reason.
1) he is the challenge I want/ need
2) price point (are you going to knock back a free horse(paid $1)??)


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## Stan

Can't complain at that for a $1 Looks good

My horse below Savannah is part Clydesdale and the horse in the avatar has also got clydesdale in the breeding


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## its lbs not miles

My draft crosses don't have all the massive draft size, but they have large cannon bones and physical sturdiness from their Friesian sires, but some of the look (and unfortunatel a desire and ability to jump :lol from their Saddlebred dams.
A more valid question would be why wouldn't I, or anyone else want to train them to ride?


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## ilikehorses95

Because draft horses have a calm reputation, are good at dressage, and can handle (pardon the term) some people whom may weight more. They are also really in right now. Some draft mixes (depending on how drafty they are) are good at Eventing, Dressage, and Hunters like the feel of them because they put there legs up when they jump and also like the draft horses they can handle some people whom may weight more and are currently a niche.


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## demonwolfmoon

I bought my girl from someone who was selling a "Sport Filly"...they had her and her QH mom dropped on them from what sounds like the horse edition of a BYB, covering QH mares with a big Percheron stallion. I was at the point where I was considering not buying any horse, especially a younger one, when I saw her. She had not been handled at ALL, except for shipping off to the seller's house. I dropped a brush hard on the concrete, and this young thing twitched an ear. That's it. And this was with the seller having a hand under her belly, fiddling around.
So I got my girl, and she is a favorite at the boarding facility, everyone loves her, she may not be beautiful...she looks very drafty...but she learns fast, spooks in place, and has shown herself to be very gentle and willing despite the initial lack of training. Everyone tells me what a beautiful mare she will become, and I do not doubt them.
Personally, I always liked the way that Arabians looked...but I have learned throughout my life that personality counts for a LOT more than looks, and by chance, or by genetics (who knows?), some draft horses are worth riding.  It doesn't seem hard to understand to me at all that others might feel the same way.


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## Islandmudpony

we tend to think as draft horses as strictly pulling animals... but that is if we forget what they were originally bred for - carrying armored knights into battle. I had a European-bloodlined Belgian (they're kind of hard to find in Canada), and had him well started for dressage. Things I liked about him: nice free-flowing movement, tons of natural collection, and a topline any warmblood breeder would kill for. I never had to ask him to go on the bit - it was like he was born that way. Not all draft horses move the right way for dressage, just like not all draft crosses turn out nice. I don't beleive in using drafts or even some draft crosses (the heavier ones) for jumping because their bones are too heavy. Yeah sure, they can clear the obstacle, but the pounding takes its toll alot more than with a lighter horse. 

If we didn't have backyard draft riding enthusiasts... I hate to think of what would happen to the breeds. In mainland Europe, after the 2nd world war, they started breeding their drafts as heavy as possible. Not for pulling. For meat. 

I like to see good quality draft animals being bred and used (even if not for their "intended" purpose), and loved. Just in case we run out of fossil fuels someday and have to find another way to farm!


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## blacksplash

Cant speak for anyone else. But for me, I pull timber, hack, drive and treck. A draught is the only horse I could comfortably use for all of the above. I think one of their greatest assests is their versatility.

Btw- the way those horses were pulling in that video would not be considered the norm for everyday work here. Those horses are working to the maximum of their ability which makes good watching, but if I worked my horses like that all day long I wouldnt have a horse left. When working comfortably the horse leans gently into the collar with slow and steady being the aim, not fast and hard. 

The horses I use need to be able to work consistanly for 8 hours, not burn themselves out in 10 minutes. Even when under pressure they use all four legs, pulling with the front and pushing with the back, whilst leaning their weight into the collar.

I couldnt find a video demonstating this with one of my working horses, but I found one with a little pony we trained that shows what I'm talking about.The log is small, but it had to be pulled out from under a stack of logs. Even under pressure he uses his whole body, not just the back end. Hope it uploads..


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## Islandmudpony

wow backsplash, what a cute pony  what breed is it?


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## blacksplash

Thanks, he's sold now. He's a gypsy cob who thought he was a tractor.Would work for hours without breaking a sweat. Better than alot of horses twice his size. Still miss him but he just wasnt big enough.


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## Islandmudpony

awe, that's too bad you had to sell him if you didn't want to. I hope his new owners appreciate his work ethic as much as you do. I had to give up my brabant belgian, and I was really sad to see him go. The only consolation for me was the people who got him working, logging and plowing. I'd only just started him for harness and saddle, and I'm glad they put the work into him.


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## bsms

I have no opinion on draft crosses, since I've never owned or ridden one.

Being fond of history, however, I'll point out that drafts did NOT descend from horses bred to carry knights. The medieval war horses were around 15 hands. Medieval war armor typically weighed around 50 lbs.

"Recent research undertaken at the Museum of London, using literary, pictorial and archeological sources, suggests war horses (including destriers) averaged 14–15 hands, and were distinguished from a riding horse by their strength, musculature and training, rather than their size. This estimate is supported by an analysis of medieval horse armour located in the Royal Armouries, which indicates the equipment was originally worn by horses of 15 to 16 hands, about the size and build of a modern field hunter or ordinary riding horse."

Destrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, by 1600, the knights of armor were gone. It would be hard to maintain that 400 years of selective breeding that had nothing to do with knights was done to maintain an ability to carry heavy weight on the back.


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## Islandmudpony

Wikipedia does allude to the theory of Belgians having been descended from the Destrier (albeit without loaning the idea any credibility). 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brabant_(horse)

In order for the Destrier origin theory to make sense, you have to realize that the "Belgian" breed of draft horse, while part of the foundation stock of most other draft breeds, has changed drastically over the last 200 years. They were originally shorter (in fact, in Europe, most of their horses are under 16.5 hands), and much lighter built, with better movement (more like the warmbloods we have today), and plenty of endurance. 

Go have a pint with Mannu at PALM Breweries someday... he'll be happy to tell you all about it  Seriously, one of the best horsement I've ever met.


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## DraftyAiresMum

I seriously wouldn't consider Wikipedia the best source for information on any subject. Anyone can put just about anything up there. In fact, no universities or even high schools will accept it as a source for any type of paper (generally speaking, they'll just hand your paper back to you with a big fat zero or F on it if they even see Wikipedia among your sources).


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## demonwolfmoon

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I seriously wouldn't consider Wikipedia the best source for information on any subject. Anyone can put just about anything up there. In fact, no universities or even high schools will accept it as a source for any type of paper (generally speaking, they'll just hand your paper back to you with a big fat zero or F on it if they even see Wikipedia among your sources).


This is true. However, as with them, I will argue you up and say that: you can review the sources the people cited in the article to check up on their claims. If there are no sources cited, then you're best off looking elsewhere, as you say. Takes a little footwork, but it's doable.


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## bsms

DraftyAiresMum said:


> ...In fact, no universities or even high schools will accept it as a source for any type of paper (generally speaking, they'll just hand your paper back to you with a big fat zero or F on it if they even see Wikipedia among your sources).


I got my BS in '79, and my MBA in 2000. Wikipedia didn't EXIST when I was doing my MBA, and I used an electric typewriter for my BS. Heck, for my BS, I had to learn to program using punchcards. Hint - it was a good idea to number each card, since a dropped box of unmarked cards could lead a person to suicidal thoughts.

However, if anyone wants to spend the time, they can research it for themselves. I did once, and don't have the desire to spend an hour looking for stuff when I know it confirms what I quoted from Wiki.


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## bsms

"There is dispute in medievalist circles over the size of the war horse, with some notable historians claiming a size of 17 to 18 hands (68 to 72 inches (170 to 180 cm)), as large as a modern Shire horse. However, there are practical reasons for dispute over size. Analysis of existing horse armour located in the Royal Armouries indicates the equipment was originally worn by horses of 15 to 16 hands (60 to 64 inches (150 to 160 cm)), or about the size and build of a modern field hunter or ordinary riding horse.
Research undertaken at the Museum of London, using literary, pictorial and archaeological sources, supports military horses of 14-15 hands (56 to 60 inches (140 to 150 cm)), distinguished from a riding horse by its strength and skill, rather than its size. This average does not seem to vary greatly across the medieval period. Horses appear to have been selectively bred for increased size from the ninth and tenth centuries, and by the eleventh century the average warhorse was probably 14.2 to 15 hh (58 to 60 inches (150 to 150 cm)), a size verified by studies of Norman horseshoes as well as the depictions of horses on the Bayeux Tapestry. 

Analysis of horse transports suggests thirteenth century destriers were a stocky build, and no more than 15-15.2 hands (60 to 62 inches (150 to 160 cm)).Three centuries later, warhorses were not significantly bigger; the Royal Armouries used a 15.2 hand (62 inches (160 cm)) Lithuanian Heavy Draught mare as a model for the statues displaying various fifteenth-sixteenth century horse armours, as her body shape was an excellent fit.
Perhaps one reason for the pervasive belief that the medieval war horse had to be of draught horse type is the assumption, still held by many, that medieval armour was heavy. In fact, even the heaviest tournament armour (for knights) weighed little more than 90 pounds (41 kg), and field (war) armour 40 to 70 pounds (18 to 32 kg); barding, or horse armour, more common in tournaments than war, rarely weighed more than 70 pounds (32 kg)."


Medieval Weapons


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## bsms

This book is the main source most internet sites use for medieval horses:

Amazon.com: The Medieval Horse and its Equipment, c.1150-1450 (Medieval Finds from Excavations in London) (Volume 5) (9781843836797): John Clark: Books

$26. I'm both too cheap and not interested enough.


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## ladybugsgirl

I got my first belgian tb and love him to death. Hes so mellow and willing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ladybugsgirl

I got my first belgian tb and love him to death. Hes so mellow and willing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## its lbs not miles

bsms said:


> I have no opinion on draft crosses, since I've never owned or ridden one.
> 
> Being fond of history, however, I'll point out that drafts did NOT descend from horses bred to carry knights. The medieval war horses were around 15 hands. Medieval war armor typically weighed around 50 lbs.
> 
> "Recent research undertaken at the Museum of London, using literary, pictorial and archeological sources, suggests war horses (including destriers) averaged 14–15 hands, and were distinguished from a riding horse by their strength, musculature and training, rather than their size. This estimate is supported by an analysis of medieval horse armour located in the Royal Armouries, which indicates the equipment was originally worn by horses of 15 to 16 hands, about the size and build of a modern field hunter or ordinary riding horse."
> 
> Destrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Also, by 1600, the knights of armor were gone. It would be hard to maintain that 400 years of selective breeding that had nothing to do with knights was done to maintain an ability to carry heavy weight on the back.


Actually the Percheron, Belgium, Shire and Friesian were used for carrying armored knights. And some armor (mostly breast plates and helmets) was still being worn into the later half of the 1800s.
A 160 lb man (the armored knight was a robust man and 160+ was pretty robust back then with the avg height being shorter) with 50 lbs of chain and helmet, 2-3 lb sword (go with the general single handed sword used from horseback) 3-5 lb secondary weapon carried (mace, axe, etc...), shield, heavy saddle (the saddles used were heavy) and you're getting close to 300 lbs of weight on the horse. You can also add in the weight of any armor that might have been put on the horse (we'll skip the weight of a lance, since they usually didn't last long once combat started). They had to breed large, strong horses to carry that much weight and remain effective in combat.

Can't comfirm the other breeds, but Percherons and Friesains have always been ridden. Just because I horse can pull doesn't mean that's what it was bred for (and the same could be true of others too). Although some of course were. I believe the Clydesdale was created as a draught horse. Not all of these horses are the massive animals (over 17 hands and 2500+ lbs) that many people have come to assiciate with them. There are Belgiums here locally that are about 16 hands and used only for riding. I learned to ride on a Percheron. There were several at the stable in Germany where I started riding at 12. They were only trained for riding and were wonderful riding horses. Pretty good jumpers too. Although I doubt you'll see any competing in the Olympics :lol:.


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## bsms

its lbs not miles said:


> Actually the Percheron, Belgium, Shire and Friesian were used for carrying armored knights...They had to breed large, strong horses to carry that much weight and remain effective in combat...


I've presented my evidence to the contrary. What is yours?


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## northswedish

Love you post I am blessed my horse background has exposed me to harness horses, warmblods, ridingschool horses ,drafts,Arabians and more The drafts are and I now will state that the Northswedishhorse is a by older definition a cold-blooded horse but a bit lighter like Belgians or (Phersherons no spell check) 
they like the islandic horse or norwegian fjord or closely related Dölehäst have traits like The arabian horse that I consider pure as in a domesticated horse that has adopted to the specific environment they are true natives not bread on hunches or sometimes rigorous programs.The horses are less prone to health problems,respond great to local feed available go great barefoot.All breeds brag about the traits so In drafts in general I would say it is their way of reacting in slow motion to fears that is why some people say they do not spook but they do ponder and when they decide to go stir crazy they do in a less dramatic way.It does make it easier to respond and control your own fear of when things go bad.
In a way any horse should wear a shirt that states I am with stupid and the arrow...unless they are around a true oldtimer.I have a strong love for Arabian horses and never found stallions any more dangerous than other horse breeds my desire to ride my northswedish horse is that they are great mounts agile with a sturdiness kind of like when you get in a big truck and love it.The low gears the sound all the weight being moved around a bit of a macho trip really 
I write a book one day of my impressions of the Friesians, paso finos and all the in between a heavier horse has like a gentle giant that impressive intimidation factor that perhaps as a result people either train them better early or not at all handing out oats....I hate to admit it but I think horses also are teddybears so a bigger one to get along with like a bigger dog could also be a real reason.Then the wild animals also seem to have a better respect for the heavy horse in the field.


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## northswedish

On the topic of the non driving skills of cold-bloods purely economical just like we draft our husbands we use them to farm when not in war ...all punns intended I could go on and post historical documents to support either side i find it pointless 
in the days of a horse there was mostly hybrids as in we rode and drove all horses economical that way


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## northswedish

On the topic of the non driving skills of cold-bloods purely economical just like we draft our husbands we use them to farm when not in war ...all punns intended I could go on and post historical documents to support either side i find it pointless 
in the days of a horse there was mostly hybrids as in we rode and drove all horses economical that way


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## northswedish

*Newbie like me getting cheeky with super mod*




bsms said:


> I have no opinion on draft crosses, since I've never owned or ridden one.
> 
> Being fond of history, however, I'll point out that drafts did NOT descend from horses bred to carry knights. The medieval war horses were around 15 hands. Medieval war armor typically weighed around 50 lbs.
> 
> "Recent research undertaken at the Museum of London, using literary, pictorial and archeological sources, suggests war horses (including destriers) averaged 14–15 hands, and were distinguished from a riding horse by their strength, musculature and training, rather than their size. This estimate is supported by an analysis of medieval horse armour located in the Royal Armouries, which indicates the equipment was originally worn by horses of 15 to 16 hands, about the size and build of a modern field hunter or ordinary riding horse."
> 
> Destrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Also, by 1600, the knights of armor were gone. It would be hard to maintain that 400 years of selective breeding that had nothing to do with knights was done to maintain an ability to carry heavy weight on the back.


Well I would point out that you can see it like this the what was called the foresthorse is the motherhorse of cold/drafts that horse is today represented in the Northswedish horse a horse ca 15 16 hands that was exported according to a Olaus Magnus Vikingarnas skepp och hem
Sorry this old stuff is in swedish but google translator should do a decen job an you also have to scroll down.
And just like in Egypt the best horses was not to leave the country...
Story remains the same but I will agre on the point that horses was not selectively bread for war all natives had to keep them for other uses to even gingis khan himself but that is after all just my oppinion.BTW love your icon pic of my fav char !!


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## bsms

There is a book on Shires found here:

(1888) The Old English War Horse or Shire-Horse: Or, the Great Horse on Coins

King Henry VIII required those with extensive lands (one mile or more in compass) to own two mares of 13 hands or greater. Those mares could not, by law, be bred to a stallion under 14 hands, and special privileges were given to horses over 15 hands.

This again indicates the war horses of the day were not huge. I doubt the 'hands' measurement was standardized, but if you could breed a warhorse by crossing a stallion of 14 hands plus with a mare 13 hands plus, we're not talking about the modern draft horse!

Picture of armored horse from around 1550. If the guy is 6 feet tall, then I'd guess the horse at about 15-16 hands.










The armor worn after 1600 was typically a breastplate and helmet, although it weighed about as much (50+ lbs) because it was thicker.

Also see:

Seattle Knights (FAQ)


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## animalartcreations

Shires in particular have been bred much taller in the modern day than they were originally. I know this from talking to many top breeders. It took us forever to find a properly (ie: closer to the original) sized shire for my husband to ride. The shire breeders in our area take pride in 17+hand horses for use in wagon competitions. We prefer our shorter mare. She doesn't eat much more than our quarter horses and is the perfect size to ride or drive. She is trained to do both. I think that folks love half drafts because they are typically a bit shorter but have the chance of retaining the slow as you go draft horse temperament. We love full drafts of the more "farm" variety. Not so much the show animals. Every half draft that I have met has been wonderful. Calm, willing, and slow to react to scary things out on the trail.


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## Stan

Just to add a different slant. Was the knight of old short in comparrison to modern man. I was under the understanding a man standing 5'6'' was very tall and considered large and 6 ft a giant. 
One only has to look at the ceiling height of the dwellings. The handle of the pistols used in the west of that area, they are to small fore the size of the modern man. My brother was a western buff and gun collector. The handles of these authentic pistols were miles to small for our hands. So without documents to prove my observation, if the average human was 5', 5'6'' being tall and rode a horse 14 hands they would look in proportion and giving the impression a horse at 15 hands was larger than it really was. Optical illusion
Something eles to discuss.


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## animalartcreations

Good point, Stan! I never even thought of that. That sounds logical to me.


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## bsms

Human height varied with nutrition. During the industrial age, the average height of an Englishman was around 5'3", by memory. However, in 1000 AD, it was around 5' 9". Those who could afford a war horse were generally well fed. 6' was uncommon, but not heard of in the 1400s.

The size of pistols varied in the old west, too. I'm 5' 8" on a tall day, and a Colt Single Action Army feels pretty good to me. Oddly enough, I know a lot of 6' or taller guys who also like the feel of it. The curved shape makes it easier to fit a variety of sized than a double action Smith & Wesson.

My S&W Model 29 is the same size and shaped frame used since the early 1900s. It fills my hand ok, but the biggest difference is probably shooting style. Most guys now use a two hand grip. I shoot one-handed, which is more like what was done 100 years ago. I think that is why I like it, but most modern shooters hate it and buy oversized grips.


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## Stan

Given what you say about the pistol hand grip of old I must have a big hand as it was uncomfortable for me. The butt of the hand grip is inside my hand by a an inch making it very hard to aim and hold secure when firing. Perhaps that is where the saying came from. Could not hit as barn door at 20 paces. Could be because the gun was to hard to hold.


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## demonwolfmoon

I have to say guys...I think that we've wandered slightly OT. xD


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## Golden Horse

Just to keep wandering off into the wilderness, this is Henry 8th's armor, 










Just saying it doesn't always accurately represent all parts of the wearer:wink:


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## its lbs not miles

bsms said:


> I've presented my evidence to the contrary. What is yours?


Well, all you really gave was a link and opinions, so I'll give a variety of links and not bother to quote what you can read for yourself.
Visit Europe and look at the armor and horse models and you'll see that the horses that became these breeds, most didn't have "breed" names at the time, were reaching 16 hands and more. Just because some were under doesn't mean some weren't over. Many members of these breeds still are the same sizes as they were then. Not all are 17+ hands. The Friesian sires of my horses are 17 and 17.2 hands each. Tall, granted, but this beed runs from almost 15 hands - 17 hands, and was also reaching that size over 400 years ago when knights were riding them.

Cyber Tutor's Lounge - Cal U Middle Ages Days Oct 20-22
Destrier Horse


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## bsms

From your link:

"A destrier is an historical term for a knight's war horse. The term destrier is derived from the Vulgar Latin 'dextrarius,' meaning right-hand. The Destrier was usually an ungelded stallion, raised from foal specifically for the needs of war, and would not shy at loud noises or in the presence of armed men. The most famous depictions of destriers is on the Bayeux Tapestry, where horses of roughly 14-16 hands high can be seen being used as Norman mounts. The destrier was specifically for war use- when not fighting the Norman would utilize a sumpter horse to carry his spare war gear and a palfrey to ride long distances on- the destrier, despite being powerful, lacked endurance.

There are many theories as to what "type" and size destriers attained, though it now seems clear they were not enormous draft types. Equestrian statues in Italy suggest a "Spanish" style of horse that today would be referred to as Baroque. Modern attempts to reproduce destriers usually involve crossing a lighter, more athletic horse with something heavier. One example is the "Spanish Norman," bred by crossing a Percheron with an Andalusian. Modern estimates put the heights at no more than 16 hands, though with a strong and heavy physique."


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## its lbs not miles

bsms said:


> I've presented my evidence to the contrary. What is yours?


Well, all you really gave was a link and opinions, so I'll give a variety of links and not bother to quote what you can read for yourself.
Visit Europe and look at the armor and horse models and you'll see that the horses that became these breeds, most didn't have "breed" names at the time, were reaching 16 hands and more. Just because some were under doesn't mean some weren't over. Most of these "breeds" did not exist then, but these "breeds" came from these large horses later (much like the Saddlebred didn't exist as a breed over 150 years ago, but the Saddler, Saddle Horse, Kentucky Saddler, etc.... were different names for the same horse that ultimately became known as the Saddlebred).
Just as the Great Horse breeds of Europe that were associated with various areas, such as Flanders, Britain, etc... eventually were turned into the Shire, Percheron, Belguim, etc... (the Frisian is what it is, although it was lightened later in it's history after not needing to carry armored knights). The Frisian gives us one of the easiest for tracking, since it was known as a "breed" that far back, being one of the oldest actual breeds in Europe. There are records naming the Friesian by breed as being a much desired war horse use by knights.

Many members of these breeds still produce horses the same sizes as they were 400+ years ago. Not all are 17+ hands, but this beed runs from almost 15 hands to 17 hands, and they were recorded as reaching that size over 400 years ago when knights were riding them.

Cyber Tutor's Lounge - Cal U Middle Ages Days Oct 20-22

Cyber Tutor's Lounge - Cal U Middle Ages Days Oct 20-22
Destrier Horse

Friesian Horses as Destriers « Friesian Horses for Sale UK

http://www.paradisepercherons.com/history.swf

Horse breed facts: Percheron - by Linda Ann Nickerson - Helium

The Medieval War Horse

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/breedsofhorses/friesianhorse.html

Web sites are a dime a dozen. Common sense has to step in at some point. If you've ever put over 300 lbs on a 15.2 QH that was use to riding 30+ miles a day, and seen the effect it has after working for an hour you'd realize that the armored knight's destrier had to be a more powerful animal than that.

While it's easy to point that todays Percherons, Shires, etc... were not the actualy war horses of the past, it's because they did not exist as breeds then, and their ancestors were bred to produce even larger horses we often associate the breeds with today. But how your sources missed the records on the Friesians and their size does make me question them. Especially since todays Friesians are, according to the breed records, smaller than there were then. And todays Friesian are still pretty large even with the breeding done long ago to lighten them.

So there's some evidence to the contrary. Certainly more than you gave. And more supportable, since the one that existed as a breed still exists as that breed and is still large even after being lightened.


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## bsms

Web sites are a dime a dozen, but if the armor used by horses in the 1500s fits a 15 hand horse, then the drafts of today are NOT that way because they once carried armored knights.

If King Henry VIII in the early 1500s allowed stallions of 14 hands to breed his "Great Horse", then it is a safe bet the "Great Horses" differed noticeably from the drafts of today.

Where this is important is when people think, "It is a draft horse, so it must be suitable for my 350 lb brother-in-law. Let's go trotting!"

At some point, the horse's skeleton and joints have to support the total weight. The cross-section of a bone increases with the square, while the horse's weight increases with the cube. If the horse's weight is approaching it's skeletal maximum, then adding a very heavy rider might push it over the safe limit.

Sometimes, the proper answer to a 350 lb brother-in-law is, "No, you are NOT getting on my horse..."


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## bsms

its lbs not miles said:


> ...Common sense has to step in at some point. If you've ever put over 300 lbs on a 15.2 QH that was use to riding 30+ miles a day, and seen the effect it has after working for an hour you'd realize that the armored knight's destrier had to be a more powerful animal than that...


Knights did not go around riding 30 miles a day in their armor. They wore armor for battle. And battle armor weighed around 50 lbs.

My gelding - 3/4 Arabian - was ridden on a ranch by a guy who weighed over 200 lbs in his socks. Add gear for the day and a >40 lb saddle, and Trooper was carrying around 260, for an 8-12 hour day, in the mountains. Trooper has gained weight here, and he still only hits 830 lbs. He was probably around 770 when working as a ranch horse. 

From one of your websites - terrificpets.com - "This was no small feat, as a knight combined with his armor and harness equipment could easily tally up to around two hundred and fifty kilograms, or over five hundred and fifty pounds."

Whoever wrote that knew nothing about armor, knights, or history.


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## jumanji321

Golden Horse said:


> Just to keep wandering off into the wilderness, this is Henry 8th's armor,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just saying it doesn't always accurately represent all parts of the wearer:wink:


What time in his life did he wear that armor? He actually was considered quite fit and good looking for the time period as a young man and before he died he became quite obese. For the latter time period, I would say this would be very deceiving armor.


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## Stan

BSMs I weigh in at 220 on a light day,the saddle 30 pounds lbs, lunch and liquid refreshment probably top my combined weight to 260. I did not consider myself as an over weight rider but after reading some of the comments am beginning to wonder if I should shed a few pounds. 
Out of interest one could sale the weight of the horse down to my size and the same with a weight and cary it for 4 or 5 hours through bush country up hill and down dale and pushing through scrub. Would give a new perspective to the discussion.


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## bsms

Stan said:


> ...Out of interest one could sale the weight of the horse down to my size and the same with a weight and cary it for 4 or 5 hours through bush country up hill and down dale and pushing through scrub. Would give a new perspective to the discussion.


Well, the infantry in Afghanistan are normally running around with about 100 lbs of gear. On a 220 lb guy, that is still roughly 50% of body weight, and the hills and mountains of Afghanistan are as rugged as any in the world.

At 49, and weighing in at 160 (I was trimmer then...chow hall cooking can give one incentive to lose weight), I normally had around 60 lbs of gear on me on the rare occasions I got off the FOB. I did try a full infantry load once, but could barely stand. I'm a lot wimpier than the average soldier or marine, but I was also a lot older.

Those sorts of loads can do serious harm. My son-in-law did 2 tours in Iraq, Marine Infantry in Fallujah. In addition to damage from multiple concussions, he has damage to his shoulders and spine and knees from the loads he was carrying. He was over 6'1.5" when he went in, and now is right at 6'. He weighed 150-180 while deployed (irregular meals and heavy work meant he lost about 30 lbs each deployment), so he was carrying up to 70% of his body weight with full ammo and guns. The damage is clearly visible in X-rays and MRIs. With home cooking, he now weighs between 190 & 200 lbs.


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## Stan

bsms said:


> .
> At 49, and weighing in at 160 (I was trimmer then...chow hall cooking can give one incentive to lose weight), I normally had around 60 lbs of gear on me on the rare occasions I got off the FOB. I did try a full infantry load once, but could barely stand. I'm a lot wimpier than the average soldier or marine, but I was also a lot older.
> 
> Vietnam was my era (that gave away my age) so there is no way I am going to cary any weight on my back. Out of concern for my horse, to shed a few pounds would not do any harm, but on the other hand that is why my horse has clydesdale in the breeding to carry the little bit extra I have around my middle. Its used as a shock absorber when I unexpectedly hit the dirt.


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## Erfellie

I like the video  Ive never see drafts ridden for pleasure either. It seems in my area that drafts are just expensive yard ornaments LOL we do a have a tractor pull once a year thats always fun because they race tractor/vs drafts and the drafts always win


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## tasunke

I like drafts and drafts crosses because I feel secure on them and they make me look smaller!  My love of horses (drafts) started 12 years ago when I was introduced to Belgians.


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## Speed Racer

jumanji321 said:


> What time in his life did he wear that armor? He actually was considered quite fit and good looking for the time period as a young man and before he died he became quite obese. For the latter time period, I would say this would be very deceiving armor.


I believe GH is referring to the codpiece on that armor. 

I'd say it was a little _-ahem-_ exaggerated. :wink:


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## kevinshorses

Speaking as a man, I would rather have more room than less!


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## Speed Racer

kevinshorses said:


> Speaking as a man, I would rather have more room than less!


Erm, maybe. But why build a 5 room mansion for a vienna sausage and two grapes?


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## ShinaKonga

Speed Racer said:


> Erm, maybe. But why build a 5 room mansion for a vienna sausage and two grapes?


Possibly the best thing ever said on the forum. :rofl: :clap:


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## kevinshorses

If you had a sausage and grapes you would know how foolish that question is!


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## Speed Racer

I don't know how y'all walk around with those things, much less ride horses! :? :wink:


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## kevinshorses

The same way porcupines mate...carefully, very carefully.


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## demonwolfmoon

Speed Racer said:


> I believe GH is referring to the codpiece on that armor.
> 
> I'd say it was a little _-ahem-_ exaggerated. :wink:


Well...you never know! :shock:


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## Speed Racer

demonwolfmoon said:


> Well...you never know! :shock:


Actually, I saw a documentary about Henry VIII and his codpieces. His armor wasn't the only place he tended to 'stretch the truth' shall we say. :wink:


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## Golden Horse

Aha, I have a new Speed Racer quote for my siggy line:rofl:


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## xxBarry Godden

*Why mix a draft horse with a pony.*

I got to this thread a little late in the discussion. Sorry.

My present horse, a sharp, quick, intelligent, moody, good looking, sprauncy, self opinionated, dominant, light, fast, powerful mare is an Irish Draught/ Connemara cross. So she's half pony and half cart horse.

I suspect my fundamental problem is that the Connemara bit was a mare named Molly and in Dublin there is a statue in the honour of that lady of the night. 

Why did I buy her? Well she smiled and gave me a lick.

In just about a year she's gone from never ever having taken a dressage test to scoring over 70 in affiliated dressage at elementary level. She's a quick learner who can fly when she wants to. 
Next month she is moving up to Medium level.

Why did an Irish horse farmer put a ID stallion to a mare - well , I suppose the idea was to make some money. All he needed was to find some English sucker who would buy the progeny. Ultimately that was me.

One of these days I daresay I'll introduce her to a syringe filled with Lusitano semen - I might get a female bull fighter then.


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## Stan

Speed racer Vienna sauage and two grapes
Cut to the quick and mortally wounded all out of one little comment


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