# Mare starting to get nippy



## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

A few of contributing factors here:

- the horse has been changed from pasture to stall (and I assume she is at a new location as well?)
- the horse has a new owner

Yes, she is probably bored in the stall. But she also is in a new environment with a new owner. Naturally the horse is going to test you in small ways, as it's in her nature to see who is the lead mare in this herd of two.

Maybe try to get out to see her more often and do some groundwork/round pen work with her to establish leadership. Lots of transitions and backing. Show her you are the one that makes her feet move forward, backwards, left and right. If she's testing you at all, this will quickly halt that.

It's a win-win because not only are you working with her to establish your pecking order, but she's also getting exercise and time out of the stall!

EDIT: Also, are you going into the stall at feeding time? Or does she do this even when it's not dinner time?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I think you're on the right track.

Medical things are good to have in mind but this sounds like a combination of boredom and testing you.

If she doesn't respond to a bop on the nose you need to step it up. Don't let her play this game.

Do get her some toys (if you think she will use them lol) and lots of hay is a good idea.


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

WillowNightwind said:


> A few of contributing factors here:
> 
> - the horse has been changed from pasture to stall (and I assume she is at a new location as well?)
> - the horse has a new owner
> ...


I have gone into the stall at various times to see if she behaves different during different times. She hasn't done it during feeding time, she did it today while I was grooming her in her stall, and she did it once while I just went in there to check on her. I'm really surprised that she tried to while I was grooming her because so far, she has loved getting groomed. 
I've noticed that since bringing her in, shes wanting to nip/grab other stuff. Shes been grabbing my bags if they're close to her, brushes, lead ropes, or anything she can reach she just wants it in her mouth.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Maybe she has learnt that when you arrive she gets a smack in the face. I wouldn't be pleased to see you in that scenario either...


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## cheyennemymare (Oct 8, 2014)

AceyGrace, is she wouldn't nip/bite, she wouldn't get popped. A 'smack' and a pop are different. 

Now back to OP.

You're doing the right thing. Show her you're boss by establishing a pecking like horses do with each other. She is probably testing you because she thinks she can. Show her otherwise. Don't go all crazy animal abuser, just squaring up your shoulders in a defiant way. Talk to her sternly. 

When you groom or go in and she doesn't bite, make it a very pleasant time. Good luck!


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

AceyG - she only gets a smack when she nips from what I read.

kapbob - it really does sound like she is missing the turnout and testing you. I agree with others, up the discipline, take her out and get her stimulated as often as you can and keep hay in her stall. Toys work for some horses, and not for others. You'll just have to keep trying on the "stall activity" toys until you find something that entertains her.


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

AceyGrace said:


> Maybe she has learnt that when you arrive she gets a smack in the face. I wouldn't be pleased to see you in that scenario either...


Sorry, this just doesn't make sense. The OP only started smacking her because the horse tried to BITE her. The horse wouldn't think the way you described. Horses aren't like people, they don't dwell and resent like that.

OP, you should *absolutely* correct your horse when she tries to bite you. In fact, I condone a good whack on the nose when teeth that can do serious damage come anywhere near the handler.

EDIT: OP, you mentioned that when you got the horse she wasn't nippy at all. That means there is a 99% chance is a handler error. When she tries to bit/nip other things, like brushes, maybe give her lead rope a firm tug. This will disrupt her thinking process about wanting to eat things and get her attention back on you.

She doesn't need to bite things, but she doesn't know that. You need to communicate that with her.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Of course she will make an association between person entering stable and pain in the face. That's very basic learning - there's nothing advanced going on there.

She may have started nipping because she was bored/stressed/lonely etc but after consistent repetitions she has clearly learnt that you arriving means unpleasant events.

I think the toys are a great idea and as much turn out as possible. I am sure her demeanor would change if her environment changed. Any way of breaking the cycle of person arriving -> nipping -> smack.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

AceyGrace said:


> Of course she will make an association between person entering stable and pain in the face. That's very basic learning - there's nothing advanced going on there.
> 
> She may have started nipping because she was bored/stressed/lonely etc but after consistent repetitions she has clearly learnt that you arriving means unpleasant events.
> 
> I think the toys are a great idea and as much turn out as possible. I am sure her demeanor would change if her environment changed. Any way of breaking the cycle of person arriving -> nipping -> smack.


I am sorry, but that is complete bull. Before she would try to BITE again, she would think of not biting. She doesn't think that when the handler comes in she gets a smack. She thinks in the exact sequence you stated, but you're missing the point of your own statement. person arriving -> nipping -> smack. person arriving -> *nipping *-> *smack* It's not person arriving --> smack. I think she needs a harsher smack to be honest, not necessarily exactly that, but you should try, instead of just smacking, to yell loudly, square up, raise your arms, be menacing. Then just continue to groom. Drop it completely, until she does it again. Eventually she won't do it.


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

AceyGrace said:


> Of course she will make an association between person entering stable and pain in the face. That's very basic learning - there's nothing advanced going on there.
> 
> She may have started nipping because she was bored/stressed/lonely etc but after consistent repetitions she has clearly learnt that you arriving means unpleasant events.
> 
> I think the toys are a great idea and as much turn out as possible. I am sure her demeanor would change if her environment changed. Any way of breaking the cycle of person arriving -> nipping -> smack.


I still disagree with you very, very much. 

I was disciplined as a kid and you can bet that my mom took a wooden spoon to me for being a brat from time to time.

But not once did I ever fear my mother. Not once did I look at her and think "Oh my God she is going to hit me again isn't she". Instead I respected her because she stepped up her game and communicated with me that she wasn't going to take any more of my attitude. My mom and I had an inseparable bond until she died. She was my life.

I've said this once before: *abuse isn't necessary but discipline is.* When someone is abused (for example, if my mother were to have beaten me for no good reason) that instills the fear you are describing. But when an individual is disciplined, all that is instilled is respect.

I think it's very important that as horsepeople we understand this very key concept. Letting your horses walk all over you because you are afraid of hurting their feelings is only going to get YOU hurt. I can speak from experience.


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## MyBoySi (Dec 1, 2011)

I'd try and get her some more turn out, maybe a haynet. 

Also I'd get after her more then just a bop on the nose. I had a little colt that bit me once when I was going past his stall. I threw open that stall door, screamed at him and hit him several times as hard as I could. It all lasted maybe 5 seconds. Then I calmly left his stall and went back to what I was doing. Best believe that little guy never tried to bite anyone again. Sounds harsh but I know one girl who was partially scalped from a horse biting her head when she bent over and another girl who nearly lost several fingers. I don't tolerate a biting horse in my barn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> I am sorry, but that is complete bull. Before she would try to BITE again, she would think of not biting. She doesn't think that when the handler comes in she gets a smack. She thinks in the exact sequence you stated, but you're missing the point of your own statement. person arriving -> nipping -> smack. person arriving -> *nipping *-> *smack* It's not person arriving --> smack. I think she needs a harsher smack to be honest, not necessarily exactly that, but you should try, instead of just smacking, to yell loudly, square up, raise your arms, be menacing. Then just continue to groom. Drop it completely, until she does it again. Eventually she won't do it.


The other key part of that event chain is person arriving -> nipping. You can't just ignore that bit because it's not poignant to you. That is obviously her conditioned response and she has no way of know she can avoid the smack if the event chain never changes (that is - she never doesn't bite when someone comes to her stable). She can't associate the person arriving with anything nice because she doesn't know there are other options.

This is why ideally the environment needs to change.

classical conditioning = neutral stimuli becoming conditioned stimuli. Pair neutral stimulus with conditioned response enough times and you get a conditioned stimulus.

In other words person becomes smack.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Keep going with smacking her in the face and you will either have a dangerously nippy horse or a horse that is emotionally shut down to you entering the stable having learned that there is no way to escape the consistent chain link... This can often be misunderstood as 'submission'. It's learned helplessness.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Check what she is being fed as well, could be too hot for her in stall setting.

And if you are not there on grounds? Could be other people are causing this too.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Aceygrace, in order for classical conditioning to occur it must be the exact same every single time. Person comes, bite, get a smack repeat. But I find it extremly hard to believe it is happening like that every time. Person arrives, starts to brush me, I try to bite, smack. Person arrives, cleans out stable, I try to bite, smack. Person arrives, I don't bite, no smack, person arrives, gives me food!! Person arrives, I try to bite, smack. Ect ect. They are more then capable of understanding it's the bite that causes the consequences and not the person arriving. I can see that you are very familiar with behaviour and have had education in that area but what you are saying is crazy. I mean, when you said in the other thread that if your horse bolted you would pull on its mouth for the first time ever and expect it to stop that just set off the biggest alarm bells of my life. I horse that starts to bite can quickly turn into a very dangerous animal and to advise people not to correct them is just downright dangerous IMO.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Two things going on here.

First, this is a new horse and she is trying to establish her place in the classic 'pecking order'. She is vying for the top spot in your herd of two. Her nipping ia simply trying to get you to back off and yield ground to her. [He who backs off first loses.]

You must EFFECTIVELY discipline her and therefore establish YOUR place above her in the herd order.

Second -- Your method of disciplining her is completely ineffective -- period. It is only a game to her and she will escalate it to a point that she WILL win. I HATE hitting horses in the face. I refuse to do it for any reason what-so-ever, not for the reasons others have said but because of other negatives. I hate it when a horse ducks and dodges if a person makes a fast move toward their head. I hate it when horses try to play 'games' with people. This, in itself, is just another way that horses hold a human at the same level as they are in a herd. I want to be at the TOP of their pecking order, not an equal they play games with.
*
If you ever have to reprimand any horse for anything and you have to do it more than twice --- your method of discipline is ineffective. * 

My favorite way to reprimand a horse for nipping is to hold a nail in my hand and just let the horse run into it. It immediately stops the game the same way a horse running into an electric fence would.

Then, you have to fix the bigger problem. Your new horse has to see you as the herd leader. You need to spend more time making him back up, move over and do what you want him to do. 

Keep a halter and lead on this horse every time you interact with it. Then, you can give a jerk on the lead-rope to make it behave better. 

Next thing --- don't just nag or peck on your horse. Either get after it for doing something wrong or leave it alone. 

Stop hand feeding treats if you are doing that. You will never 'buy' your horse's love. You can only demand your horse's respect. and it will think as much of you as is possible in your horse/person relationship.

Stop petting your horse's face. Some horses love it and then they want to slam their head into people and rub their face on them. Other horses hate it and will start laying their ears back at everyone that approaches them. If you walk down the isle of a boarding stable and half of the horses there lay their ears back as you walk by, you can bet they are the ones that absolutely hate having their faces petted on and pawed on. Scratch them on the shoulder or withers instead and they will welcome your approach. Look at it this way -- would you rather have someone come up and start pawing on YOUR face or would you rather have them touch your shoulder instead? Just changing this one thing alone can make a lot of horses change their attitude in a stall. 

Just my thoughts on the subject. Cherie.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Cherie says it all!

I hate all this 'modern' training of ignore the bad and reward the good. Bad behaviour need instant correction in a manner to fit the crime. _I am not advocating beating any animal up just form far correction done in the instant._


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Yup-once again, Cherie took the words right out of my fingers. lol. Perfect post, Cherie. 
I would add that you need to look at the demeanor of the horse. When they are playing with brushes, etc, that, to me, is not a huge deal, and totally different than them swinging their head around trying to nip at me when I am grooming. I have one that can be mouthy also-IF ALLOWED TO BE. He no longer gets ANY hand fed treats-EVER, which has helped immensely, but he still likes to play with objects. Not really chew or bite them, but he might pick up a brush and drop it.

I would also suggest that when a horse starts nipping when being groomed you might want to assess when and why they are doing it. Some horses have sensitive skin and HATE certain currys. Some are particularly ticklish in certain spots, and some my be having pain in a certain area-like bad- and are sore when you brush or rub hard there…….just a thought. Not an excuse for bad behavior, ever, but perhaps the horse is trying to tell you something. Again-you still have to correct the behavior….but, look to see if there is a cause other than noes horse/owner and bored.


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## RockingSRanchKS (Jan 28, 2015)

I agree with stepping it up a notch. We just adopted a mare who started to push her weight around and nip as well. I studied mothers and how they disciplined their foals and they get harsher when the foal doesn't pay attention. So. I took that lesson back with me and it worked. Like the others mentioned, squared up at the shoulders, stern voice and a harsher pop. It's nothing their mama didn't do when they were babies. Its all in establishing who the leader is. Our mare hasn't tried to nip since. Good Luck!


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Lauren if that's all you took away from that thread then I'm really disappointed that you missed some really interesting and valuable information from a lot of members about many training approaches...

To clarify, my horses do not bolt because they are trained not to bolt. I just do it a different way to you. I have never had to pull on their (or any other animal in several years of training) mouths to interrupt a bolt. 

Saying this horse will not associate the owner with smacking is like saying my horse will not associate me with lots of treats. Obviously ridiculous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

That was an interesting thread and I can think of a heap of different examples besides the bolting but a bit off topic to go into on this thread. I'll try and explain myself a little better. Your horses associate you with treats, you said yourself if your horse gets worried instead of selling out it will demonstrate some known behaviours to recieve a treat. (Sorry can't use a quote on my phone but it was along those lines.) This is exactly the same principle but in reverse. The horse understands that it's behaviour is what causes the consequence. (In this case a good consequence because it gets a reward.) If they werent able to comprehend that their actions are what controls the outcome then they would never reliably perform the behaviour to recieve their reward.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Try smacking the shoulder instead of the face, not because it is mean to hit the face of a horse trying to bite you but because body shots count for more. Think of two male horses play fighting, they use their faces...until one bites the body & means it, then game over.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

AceyGrace said:


> Maybe she has learnt that when you arrive she gets a smack in the face. I wouldn't be pleased to see you in that scenario either...


Oh no, here we go again:-(


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

AceyGrace said:


> She may have started nipping because she was bored/stressed/lonely etc but after consistent repetitions she has clearly learnt that you arriving means unpleasant events.



So because the horse is bored, that gives them an *excuse* to bite a person? You should just let them bite you, because they don't like being in their stall?

Because a horse is bored, that gives them an *excuse* to kick a person in the face? Oh, but they were maybe just having a bad day. That's okay. I'll just go the ER and let my face be reconstructed. 

Because a horse is bored, that gives them an *excuse* to buck a person out of the saddle? So if the horse bucks, I should just quit and unsaddle the horse, because the horse doesn't like doing that, so I should just give in?

I don't care what "excuse" you want to make up for the horse acting the way they act. The bottom line is that the behavior is not acceptable. Period. No matter what the reason is. 

I will correct my horse's negative behavior when they do it and when they deserve to be corrected. Any biting gets a swift HARD hit to the nose, immediately. Hence, my horses know better than to bite and don't do it. And they aren't head shy from it.

I also hand feed them treats all the time. _*gasp*_

They very much know the difference between taking a treat nicely from my hand, and going for a bite of my flesh. Horses are a lot smarter than many people give them credit for. 

The horse in this situation is not an idiot. It's testing boundaries to see what it can get away with with the new owner. It doesn't think that a human = smack. It is well aware it's biting the human. Don't make excuses for the horse. 


While I agree that that OP probably isn't quite administering the "smack" quite correctly if she needs to keep repeating it ..... or maybe the horse is getting away with biting another person that visits her stall but doesn't correct her. If someone else let's the bad behavior slide, the horse will continue doing it. 

And while I agree that the horse needs more turnout due to this sudden change in her environment, I see nothing wrong with giving a smack to correct a bite. Been doing it for 25+ years. Hasn't failed me yet.

OP is everyone in the barn aware of this problem? If not, make everyone aware and only let certain people into her stall that are capable of fixing this problem. You don't want it to get worse.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

natisha said:


> Oh no, here we go again:-(


I kind of agree with you on this one lol. But the purpose of a forum is to share opinions and ideas not just recruit people who all agree with each other. I think its great that there is variation and I appreciate everyones input even when it doesn't coincide with my own beliefs. 

I also want to add that any training has to be done effectively. Throwing treats at an animal is just as ineffective as a poorly timed correction. I have respect for those of you who administer negative reinforcement in an effective way because it is a skill (even though not one I advocate). I am an effective reward based trainer which is just as much of a skill and deserves respect. Most of us train based on knowledge and experience and sharing that can only be a good thing when people ask advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

a good way to establish your place of dominance with a hrose is being able to move them off of their food.

the way they behave at feeding time is a strong barometer of how much they respect you. if you aren't the one feeding, her, just use some kind of treat and put it in her bucket/manger, but do not allow her to approach until she has backed up and stood with her ears pricked forward at you "asking",. then step away as if you've lost interest. 

then, come back after she's eaten some and move her off and re-claim the food. you may need a whip to do this, though you do not need to hit her. 

practice being proactive with her. moving her off the doorway before you enter the stall. backing her off to one side before grooming, making her stand in a "mother may I? " stance before giving any treat (in her bucket).


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

AceyGrace said:


> I am an effective reward based trainer which is just as much of a skill and deserves respect.


Do share. 

How would you have handled this situation?

You walk into the horse's stall and it bites you. What would you do?


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

beau159 said:


> Do share.
> 
> How would you have handled this situation?
> 
> You walk into the horse's stall and it bites you. What would you do?


I really don't want to have another huge debate about why I am wrong and you are all right but since it is relevant to the OP's question...

I would leave the stable. 

Of course this may be exactly what the horse wants so before I even put myself in the situation where I KNOW my horse will bite me (setting my horse up to fail) I would spend a few hours building up a history of reinforcement wherein the horse earns rewards for calm still behaviours OUTSIDE OF THE STABLE. 

I would put those behaviours (and therefore emotional responses) on verbal/tactile/visual cue and give those cues when entering the stable. If the horse offers a nip/ugly face instead of the calm stillness I ask for then I leave and take all the fun with me.

That way the horse has a fighting chance at knowing what to do because she already has conditioned responses.

This horse has unpleasant associations with the chain of events that continue to happen. Changing those events eliminates the behaviour.

As I said before forums should be filled with variety and the OP can choose whichever route he/she wants. It's nice to have options.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Sorry Acey-you cannot use treats to train every horse. Do that with mine, and you do nothing but encourage his mouthiness. I have had 3 trainers work with this horse for different things at different times. The most effective were the 2 who used good horsemanship to get respect and not the one with the treats in his pocket.

And out of those-the one who seemed to do the most toward finishing-was the good old fashioned reining trainer. Ride the heck out of him and put miles on him. No treats at all for a couple of months, unless I showed up and put one in his feed bin.

Mine has now, and likely always will have-a sign on his stall not to hand feed him, and I would suggest the OP do the same, for anyone else in the barn. It works really well, especially since mine actually chomped on one corner of his.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

AceyGrace said:


> I really don't want to have another huge debate about why I am wrong and you are all right but since it is relevant to the OP's question...



You were extremely quick to tell the "yes hitters" that we are wrong yet you did not offer any actual advice to the OP to fix the problem .... except not to hit the horse. 

So thought I would ask.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

If I retreated every time my stud bit me he'd end up killing me. He would rather be out grazing than having "fun" with me. He would learn that every time he bites I leave him alone. He's happy being alone. Eventually he would start chasing me out of the pasture, then he might come right through the fence thinking "I don't want to see you in this pen again, and I will teach you like I teach the horse in this pasture." With a swift kick in the head, which would kill or maim me. Id rather hit him and hit him HARD the first time, than risk him calling the shots. Because guess what? He would kill foals if I let him. If he would kill "little innocent foals" he wouldn't think twice about killing me.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

My grey mare boots the living hell out of our horses, chases them around to no end, but you know what? When she walks away they run after her and want to be with her. They coddle up to her and respect her leadership. They don't think "that mare kicked me, I'm going to stay away from her."


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> If I retreated every time my stud bit me he'd end up killing me. He would rather be out grazing than having "fun" with me. He would learn that every time he bites I leave him alone. He's happy being alone. Eventually he would start chasing me out of the pasture, then he might come right through the fence thinking "I don't want to see you in this pen again, and I will teach you like I teach the horse in this pasture." With a swift kick in the head, which would kill or maim me. Id rather hit him and hit him HARD the first time, than risk him calling the shots. Because guess what? He would kill foals if I let him. If he would kill "little innocent foals" he wouldn't think twice about killing me.


This might be a perfect example of different people having different skills.

Perhaps you struggle with timing/accuracy/criteria in reward based training which makes you think you horse could never learn in this way.

I very much struggle with timing/accuracy/criteria using pressure release and corrections because it is not a skill I have honed. I am more likely to create an overtly aggressive and confused horse by using this approach.

Both of us are good at what we do based on our own education and experiences. But that doesn't mean that the other way isn't effective and doesn't work at all.

I will never deny that smacking a nippy horse in the face could well result in a decrease in biting if done severely enough (positive punishment). I just prefer to avoid the fall out of that approach ie: shut down and learned helplessness.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> They don't think "that mare kicked me, I'm going to stay away from her."


umm... then what's the point in kicking them if they aren't going to stay out of her space? :s


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

AceyGrace said:


> umm... then what's the point in kicking them if they aren't going to stay out of her space? :s


Maybe the kick said, "I'm not ready for your love advances. Come back next week." He'll remember the kick but he won't care.


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

I really really appreciate everybody's help. AceyGrace, I do disagree with a lot that you have said and I don't want this to turn into a huge debate. I just want to bounce ideas off of other people so that maybe I can figure this out. 

I got this horse a little over two weeks ago. I have given her a few treats but have completely stopped that since she started getting nippy. She is now on grain for the first time in her life, so I expected to her to have more energy than before. She gets out everyday (as far as I know). I go out there about 5 days a week to work/ride her. 

I just want to make it clear to AceyGrace that by no means is this horse scared of me and "anticipating to get slapped." I ONLY slap this horse when she is putting me in danger, shes 1100 pounds and I'm 135. I think its pretty clear why I needed to slap her? In fact, I have only slapped her twice (when she did manage to nip me). Prior to that I caught her every time before her mouth came in contact with me and I would respond by putting my hands up and moving her feet away from me similar to how a alpha mare would out in the field. I let her know that it was bad, but now I have realized I probably should have been more stern.

I saw a post a few pages back about stuff possibly happening with other people. I have thought about it and I was actually concerned that the stall cleaners may have contributed to this behavior. I noticed that I can take her out of her stall and do the same exact activities and she is fine. Back in her stall, not so much. I have investigated a little bit and have noticed that SOME of the horses kept in stalls exhibit similar patterns of behavior. I have tried to stay around during stall cleaning time but I didn't see anything going on. I don't think they would purposely do something though in front of an owner. 
I am due to leave this barn in 2 months time though.
I'm going today to pick up a jolly ball for her and maybe some other toys. Will keep posted if that helps!


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

AceyGrace said:


> I very much struggle with timing/accuracy/criteria using pressure release and corrections because it is not a skill I have honed. I am more likely to create an overtly aggressive and confused horse by using this approach.


Why should I take advice from you when you are more likely to create an aggressive horse? Sorry but I would like a horse that respects my space, not a horse that is aggressive and confused. In my experience it is also very difficult to get a horse to the point where they are aggressive so I am very curious as to what you exactly do while training to be "likely to create an overtly aggressive horse".


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

AceyGrace said:


> I am an effective reward based trainer which is just as much of a skill and deserves respect. Most of us train based on knowledge and experience and sharing that can only be a good thing when people ask advice.]


I have recently been helping a forst time dog owner who has a year old Lurcher, a running X breed dog. She has spent the last year going to 'positive reinforcement' classes. 
I understand the principles behind this form of training but it never seems to me to address problems.

This pup is very excitable, she had him in a harness which when she was on her own he walked fairly well in, other dogs around and he pulled like a train. 

He travels in the back of her car and as soon as she opens the door he is out and gone. Her trainer told her to tie hi in and to reward him when he didn't jump out - how could he because he was tied? 

I showed her how to stop him jumping out just by blocking him. He stayed there but was excited and wanting to go run with the rest of the pack. She went to reward him for staying but doing so was rewarding a heightened level of excitement. Only when he sat and showed relaxing did I allow her to reward him and then let him out. Even when he jumped out I never let him go straight into running after the other dogs but again made him wait until he was calm. 

There was no hitting, yanking or holding his collar. Just determination and patience. He got the idea within minutes. 

Just that short session enabled us when walking back to have eleven dogs, all off leash, walking behind us quietly - we were going through an area where the are ground nesting birds. 
Prior to me calming him down there is no way he would have stayed behind. He knew exactly where he was in 'my' pack.


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

beau159 said:


> OP is everyone in the barn aware of this problem? If not, make everyone aware and only let certain people into her stall that are capable of fixing this problem. You don't want it to get worse.


I have told my trainer and let him know that she needs to get outside more, no excuses. I also let the other employees know, but it seemed like they didn't much care. 
I think I am administering the hit well. I hit her hard and let her know she did bad and then I continue on with doing what I was doing before she attempted to bite. I normally don't just hit her, I have started hitting her and then making her move to gain respect.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> I have recently been helping a forst time dog owner who has a year old Lurcher, a running X breed dog. She has spent the last year going to 'positive reinforcement' classes.
> I understand the principles behind this form of training but it never seems to me to address problems.
> 
> This pup is very excitable, she had him in a harness which when she was on her own he walked fairly well in, other dogs around and he pulled like a train.
> ...


I have no idea what trainers your friend went to so I can't comment on their applications of positive reinforcement or your understanding of said trainers methods.

What I will say is that if your friend had applied the principles of +R correctly the dog would have shown the desired behaviours. When we talk about quadrants of operant conditioning we are discussing science. To say +R does not work is the same as saying gravity does not exist. It must work or it would not be a quadrant.

Your method that you shared with the owner sounds reasonable but if it were my dog I would not have thrown him into such an excitable/difficult situation. This provides a really hard choice for the animal where he has to choose between a bit of food and a run. You always have to have the highest reinforcer until behaviours are conditioned. That dog was not conditioned enough to be given such a tough decision.

Let's not forget that any training takes time and consistency. I invest a lot of short low threshold sessions into my dogs/horses so that their responses are reliable. If I didn't I couldn't trust that they will give me the behaviour I want every time I ask for it without fail.

I do not settle for poor effort. I am always upping the anti with criteria but I always set my animals up to succeed.

As a side note - dominance theory and pack mentality was debunked in the early 90's. We now know that dominance is not a personality trait and dogs do not think in terms of hierarchy within a pack. I know you (and many others) will argue this but it is absolutely not even a topic of discussion for animal behaviour professionals. Any research done within the last decade will help you understand the absence of pack/herd mentality in animals as a form of learning. They learn from pain vs pleasure - not respect (a highly advance cognitive function)


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> She went to reward him for staying but doing so was rewarding a heightened level of excitement.


you cannot reinforce emotional states. This is why treating for fear improves emotional responses to stimuli not worsen it. You can only reinforce behaviours

Another example of different people have different areas of expertise ...


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

AceyGrace said:


> Your method that you shared with the owner sounds reasonable but if it were my dog I would not have thrown him into such an excitable/difficult situation. This provides a really hard choice for the animal where he has to choose between a bit of food and a run. You always have to have the highest reinforcer until behaviours are conditioned. That dog was not conditioned enough to be given such a tough decision.


What would you consider a easy situation? (if working with horses not dogs)


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

AceyGrace said:


> This might be a perfect example of different people having different skills.
> 
> Perhaps you struggle with timing/accuracy/criteria in reward based training which makes you think you horse could never learn in this way.
> 
> ...


I've gone over your posts multiple times trying to understand how your training works for aggression.
Reward based training works for things like tricks, walking a on bridge- stuff like that but I can't see how you would use it in this situation.
If you leave the stall when presented with aggression doesn't the horse think it chased you away? What do you eventually do to have the horse accept you?
How could you do reward training outside of the stable if you can't get the horse out of the stable? But let's say he runs out without needing to be lead. The only thing I can come up with to reward good behavior is chucking apples at him when he's not attacking you & hope he associates the apples with him not charging. What do you do if he does attack you? If you leave he's chased you off his turf, which was his intent. Why would he stop? 
I've been retraining brat horses for years & have used many methods but yours has me totally confused.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

kapbob8 said:


> What would you consider a easy situation? (if working with horses not dogs)


With my horses I work in places they feel comfortable when teaching new behaviours. That would be a sand school/round pen or stable or just in the middle of our yard when it's quiet.

Basically somewhere that's quite uninteresting and not novel so it's not so exciting and distracting that they can't focus.

I use the term 'under threshold' to describe the state of mind where my horse can still think and attend to what I am asking of him. If he goes over threshold for whatever reason it is impossible for him to learn.

Once they have learnt what is expected of them then we can go to slightly more exciting/interesting places and proof our behaviours there. Gradually we work up to highly exciting situations like pleasure rides or hunting. By the time we are at that point they know exactly what to do and are happy to do it because it's conditioned.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

natisha said:


> I've gone over your posts multiple times trying to understand how your training works for aggression.
> Reward based training works for things like tricks, walking a on bridge- stuff like that but I can't see how you would use it in this situation.
> If you leave the stall when presented with aggression doesn't the horse think it chased you away? What do you eventually do to have the horse accept you?
> How could you do reward training outside of the stable if you can't get the horse out of the stable? But let's say he runs out without needing to be lead. The only thing I can come up with to reward good behavior is chucking apples at him when he's not attacking you & hope he associates the apples with him not charging. What do you do if he does attack you? If you leave he's chased you off his turf, which was his intent. Why would he stop?
> I've been retraining brat horses for years & have used many methods but yours has me totally confused.


First you have to look at the cause of the aggressive behaviour. There will be a trigger and that is what needs to be addressed not the behaviour itself. Behaviour = antescendent + learned consequence.

You cannot reinforce emotions so frustration and annoyance that lead to aggressive behaviours cannot be rewarded. You can only change how the horse feels about a situation he has learnt to hate by counter conditioning (adding an appetitive to an unpleasant feeling). Rehabilitating any animal using rewards is the safest and most effective form of reliably changing how that animal feels about the situation.

How would you train a dolphin to move left? This is a social animal like a horse or a dog. How on earth are you going to force this 22000 lbs animal anywhere? How would you get him to respect you? How would you assert your dominance?

Animals do not understand respect. They learn behaviours based on their antecedents and consequences. To say they have an understanding of respect is to give they way to much credit in terms of cognitive function.

I always thought I could never have a horse because I wasn't goo enough at negative reinforcement even though I have years of experience training so many other species. When I stopped thinking about a horse as any different I knew what to do


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

Like natisha, I am confused how your method of training will help my situation. I think your method may apply to certain situations but not this one. 
Im also not teaching her anything new. I was simply grooming her in her stall, she went to bite me, I hit her, and then moved her to show I was in dominance. 
I don't think giving her a treat in this situation would help at all.


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

AceyGrace said:


> You cannot reinforce emotions so frustration and annoyance that lead to aggressive behaviours cannot be rewarded. You can only change how the horse feels about a situation he has learnt to hate by counter conditioning (adding an appetitive to an unpleasant feeling). Rehabilitating any animal using rewards is the safest and most effective form of reliably changing how that animal feels about the situation.


The problem with your method is that if I were to walk into her stall everyday and give her a treat to associate my presence as good, I would then end up with a very demanding and dangerous horse by the end of the week. Because then she learns that "Oh hey, there is my owner and when she walks in here she will give me a treat." The day that I don't do that, she will be bossy and run all over me trying to find her treat. 
This is NOT a good way to correct her nippy-ness.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Kapbob - you might also considered removing the grain. She is likely not active enough to warrant the extra feed. 

AceyGrace - positive reinforcement is a wonderful thing, training in happy areas is a wonderful thing. But not all things are wonderful, happy and familiar. A horse just has to learn once that it can get away with something and it will try it again. If it works a second and <gasp> a third time, you're in for some serious readjustment time. Jostling the relationship is what horses do. You can have the same horse for 10 years; 90% of the time no trouble, but that 10% needs to be corrected every time. No way would I ever try it your way. Too scary for me.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

kapbob8 said:


> The problem with your method is that if I were to walk into her stall everyday and give her a treat to associate my presence as good, I would then end up with a very demanding and dangerous horse by the end of the week. Because then she learns that "Oh hey, there is my owner and when she walks in here she will give me a treat." The day that I don't do that, she will be bossy and run all over me trying to find her treat.
> This is NOT a good way to correct her nippy-ness.


yep you're right - if you just give her treat with no guidelines then you will get a horse who thinks the right thing to do is barge all over you and that is not a good way to train. That is exactly why you apply conditions to the treats. 

EG: One of my horses gets a treat when she goes and stands right at the back of her stable let's me enter and put up her nets and do her water. She will stay there without fail because she knows that's how the game works. Another horse I have trained was taught to target a post in her field while her owner walked in through the gate. These horses will not move! They know what to do and they love doing it. If they don't do it they get nothing... why would they choose not to?!

I have trained many nippy horses and within a day or 2 the habit is gone and they are clear about the rules of the game.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

AceyGrace said:


> First you have to look at the cause of the aggressive behaviour. There will be a trigger and that is what needs to be addressed not the behaviour itself. Behaviour = antescendent + learned consequence.
> 
> You cannot reinforce emotions so frustration and annoyance that lead to aggressive behaviours cannot be rewarded. You can only change how the horse feels about a situation he has learnt to hate by counter conditioning (adding an appetitive to an unpleasant feeling). Rehabilitating any animal using rewards is the safest and most effective form of reliably changing how that animal feels about the situation.
> 
> ...


Move a dolphin? I'd throw a fish to the left (the apple for the horse). If the dolphin instead attacked me I wouldn't wait around to see if it would gently take another fish from my hand!

As for dogs not having a hierarchy, that's not true. Wolves certainly do, so do other canines, lions etc. I have 3 dogs, top dog, middle dog & bottom dog. No matter where they are when I open a door to let them out they go in that exact same order- every time. If I am also going through the door they go behind me, in the same order.

Sheep are the only animals I have worked with who never have a leader. Rats kind of do their own thing too.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

I find it interesting that whenever someone presents a hole in your reasoning it is ignored. You are constantly addressing how superior your training style is but when the going gets tough your answer is 'I wouldn't put my horse in that situation.' Here's why positive only training can not work as the only form of training.
1. It is great for teaching behaviours but absolutely useless for extinguishing behaviours. If the animal displays a negative behaviour it is managed forever instead of just dealt with.
2. Unless you want to spent your whole life with your horse in a controlled environment (eg a safe paddock or arena) your horse will never be reliable enough to ride safely. I say this because the horse has always had the option to choose what it wants to do. It has never come across the situation that is goes 'oh ****, I don't think we should do this' and had a calm competent handler say 'actually yes we are going to do this.' When push comes to shove and something out of your control happens the horse has never HAD to obey so of course it is going to take the higher reinforcer. Eg, bolting away from the object of death, OR taking off because you're riding with others and the other horses bolt, or rolling in the river because they would prefer that then a treat for standing quietly. 
3. In the same way you strengthen wanted behaviours using -P this horses biting may escilate the same way. Eg, horse bites, you leave the stable, horse bites, you leave the stable ect ect. the R+ (reward) For the horse is you leaving the stable. One day the horse bites and you don't leave the stable.
He goes, ok... This always worked before.. I'll try a bit harder. He might bite again, he might strike, he might kick. Eventually you have to leave the stable and the horse goes 'ah ha! That's what I have to do to get you out of the stable.' It's shaping but in reverse. You could spend forever treating the horse to stand quietly and getting him to enjoy your company but ultimately you are only there because he wants you there. The second he wants you out he knows very well how to achieve that.
I have no doubt that you are reasonably compitent in the training style you prefer and yes the purpose of a forum is so that people of different opinions can have a say. But if I suggested a training style and some of the extremely experienced trainers on here suggested to me that my training style probably was a little off and clearly pointed out holes I would be the first one to raise my hand and say. Oh yea, that makes perfect sense. I am very open to new training styles and techniques.
I would not decide that I was right and everyone else was wrong and whenever they clearly demonstrated holes I would not dismiss it. I guess what I am trying to say is that to advise the op to allow her horse to bite and just walk away is potentially an extremely dangerous situation. She might be able to forever manage the behaviour using R+ or it might escilate to the point the horse becomes a serious danger to others.


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

NorthernMama said:


> Kapbob - you might also considered removing the grain. She is likely not active enough to warrant the extra feed.


I have considered it but she is very underweight and needs the grain to put on weight. This is also the first time in a very very long time that she is getting worked regularly. When we got her she had been kept outside for 8 months while only getting ridden about one time a week. Prior to that situation she was a lesson horse who wasn't used a whole lot. She has pretty much no muscle and not a lot of fat on her body so I feel like right now, she needs to have grain.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

natisha said:


> Move a dolphin? I'd throw a fish to the left (the apple for the horse). If the dolphin instead attacked me I wouldn't wait around to see if it would gently take another fish from my hand!
> 
> As for dogs not having a hierarchy, that's not true. Wolves certainly do, so do other canines, lions etc. I have 3 dogs, top dog, middle dog & bottom dog. No matter where they are when I open a door to let them out they go in that exact same order- every time. If I am also going through the door they go behind me, in the same order.
> 
> Sheep are the only animals I have worked with who never have a leader. Rats kind of do their own thing too.


So if the dolphin attacked you you would retreat... I thought that was allowing the animal to dominate you? 

Animals are simply not capable of comprehending respect. Humans have a hard enough job with higher order cognitive functioning let alone other more simple mammalian brains. Trying to 'test' someone requires a huge capacity for mental processing including foresight imagination theory of mind a belief system etc etc the list goes on. Animals simply react to the stimuli they are given.

I won't go into dominance any further. As a qualified behaviourist I find it unbelievable that people still subscribe to this idea when it was thrown out by experts over a decade ago :s


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

AceyGrace...
What would you do in a difficult situation where your horse was not listening to you. Perhaps while riding, he bucked you off?


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Back to the R+ to train the dolphin then. A dolphin is contained at all times. (They can't very well get up and walk off.) I touched on this with horses. If you never need to take your horse out of the paddock or arena then good on you. If you took your well trained dolphin out into the ocean and it found some friends and swam around for a while then you gave it a cue to do a trick. My money is on it going stuff you buddy.


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

AceyGrace said:


> Animals are simply not capable of comprehending respect. Humans have a hard enough job with higher order cognitive functioning let alone other more simple mammalian brains. Trying to 'test' someone requires a huge capacity for mental processing including foresight imagination theory of mind a belief system etc etc the list goes on. Animals simply react to the stimuli they are given.


Lets take a herd of horses. 3 geldings and 2 mares. One mare is the alpha and the others follow behind her in the peeking order. Your saying that none of these horses respect the alpha mare? What your saying is that every single moment these horses are just reacting to stimuli and simply cannot remember that the alpha mare is "on top"? 

When I tell my horse to back up, she backs up. Its the same every single day. I don't start fresh every day training her to back up. She simply knows from training that when I tell her, she does it. There is a level of respect there. She respects what I'm telling her to do. If she didn't respect me, she would be telling me what to do. (which unfortunately is what I'm trying to correct with the nipping situation).


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

OoLaurenoO said:


> I find it interesting that whenever someone presents a hole in your reasoning it is ignored. You are constantly addressing how superior your training style is but when the going gets tough your answer is 'I wouldn't put my horse in that situation.' Here's why positive only training can not work as the only form of training.
> 1. It is great for teaching behaviours but absolutely useless for extinguishing behaviours. If the animal displays a negative behaviour it is managed forever instead of just dealt with.
> 2. Unless you want to spent your whole life with your horse in a controlled environment (eg a safe paddock or arena) your horse will never be reliable enough to ride safely. I say this because the horse has always had the option to choose what it wants to do. It has never come across the situation that is goes 'oh ****, I don't think we should do this' and had a calm competent handler say 'actually yes we are going to do this.' When push comes to shove and something out of your control happens the horse has never HAD to obey so of course it is going to take the higher reinforcer. Eg, bolting away from the object of death, OR taking off because you're riding with others and the other horses bolt, or rolling in the river because they would prefer that then a treat for standing quietly.
> 3. In the same way you strengthen wanted behaviours using -P this horses biting may escilate the same way. Eg, horse bites, you leave the stable, horse bites, you leave the stable ect ect. the R+ (reward) For the horse is you leaving the stable. One day the horse bites and you don't leave the stable.
> ...


it's kind of impossible for me to address every comment without taking over an entire thread lol. But I am happy to respond to them and don't feel I have ignored anything in particular?

Sometimes the training approach simply is that I would not purposefully expose my horse to something he is going to fail at. HOWEVER all behaviours can be proofed over time so that they are reliable in any situation. How is that avoiding the question?

You don't reinforce 'not behaviours' ie not biting. That's impossible. You ahve to teach an incompatible behaviour like the target and stationing cues I discussed previously. Why would this not be possible in the OP's situation??

My horses and all animals I train are 100% reliable. I couldn't call myself a trainer if I left a job half done :/

I am a calm and competent handler that says "yes we are going to do that". I just allow the animal to process and reward him for any progress. Not dissimilar from what many people here would say. My horses do have to obey because it they don't they don't get what they want. They would rather stay calm than bolt because the thought of a reward is better than the thought of running away. I have seen this happen many many times.

Once again your understanding of quadrants is clear as you say I strengthen behaviours by using -P. You can only weaken behaviours using -P. Leaving a horse when he wants you to leave would be -R ... and shaping is shaping ... there is no reverse 

My dogs are all clicker trained. After a life time of training they never need a treat to 'perform'. They get a cue and they do the conditioned response without needing the treat followed (though I do stick to variable schedules of reinforcement)


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

kapbob8 said:


> AceyGrace...
> What would you do in a difficult situation where your horse was not listening to you. Perhaps while riding, he bucked you off?


This is admittedly the hardest sort of scenario because sometimes unexpected things do happen no matter what you do. I'll give a couple of examples...

my 9month old filly goes on walks around the lanes with me. She isn't very brave and does find new situations a bit stressful so we do this little and often. The other day a huge truck pulled around the corner and she jolted. I clicked (her marker for receiving a treat) and she stopping in her track stood by my side looking at the truck waiting for her treat.

I rode my 16 year old retrained ex-hunter once and a herd of deer appeared out of newhere galloping across the open field we were in riling my horse up hugely. He span and bucked which is completely out of character but he was over threshold as discussed earlier. Thrown off balance I accidentally ended up jabbing his mouth and he shied sideways to avoid it (bad rider right here!) I gave him the verbal and tactile cues to stand and he stood still. I immediately clicked and asked for another behaviour. The deer were still in the field causing mayhem but he looked at me for his treat and walked on when I asked. The click got him under threshold in a second and we were all safe and sound.

My horses always listen because they have a solid history of reinforcement. There is nothing in it for them to not listen.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Actually that is incorrect. P- negative punishment is the act of removing something that the animal enjoys. Eg, I ask my dog a known command 'sit.' The dog does sit, eventually, but it's pretty sloppy and not as good as he normally does it so I withhold his treat. The dog things what? I sat? Where's my treat!? Maybe I have to try a bit harder or something different.. Next time you ask him to sit he sits instantly and very straight. You might jackpot him for that responce, thus strengthening the behaviour by withholding the reward.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

OoLaurenoO said:


> Actually that is incorrect. P- negative punishment is the act of removing something that the animal enjoys. Eg, I ask my dog a known command 'sit.' The dog does sit, eventually, but it's pretty sloppy and not as good as he normally does it so I withhold his treat. The dog things what? I sat? Where's my treat!? Maybe I have to try a bit harder or something different.. Next time you ask him to sit he sits instantly and very straight. You might jackpot him for that responce, thus strengthening the behaviour by withholding the reward.


Absolutely... the key part of that would be "something the horse wants" If your horse doesn't want you in his stable then to leave couldn't possibly be a punishment could it.

Also your application for -R in that scenario is more like a no reward marker. for -R to apply the dog would have to have the treat for you to take it away. What you describe is actually what I do when I raise criteria. If my dog can put his butt on the ground reliably and I want a better sit I will wait for him to offer a slightly 'better' one and reward that. That is the essence of shaping.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

AceyGrace said:


> So if the dolphin attacked you you would retreat... I thought that was allowing the animal to dominate you?
> 
> Animals are simply not capable of comprehending respect. Humans have a hard enough job with higher order cognitive functioning let alone other more simple mammalian brains. Trying to 'test' someone requires a huge capacity for mental processing including foresight imagination theory of mind a belief system etc etc the list goes on. Animals simply react to the stimuli they are given.
> 
> I won't go into dominance any further. As a qualified behaviourist I find it unbelievable that people still subscribe to this idea when it was thrown out by experts over a decade ago :s


Heck yes I'd retreat, not that it would do me much good. I'm assuming we'd be in water & the dolphin can swim faster than me so it is dominant. 
The difference with horses, beside both residing on land, is they don't know they can be dominant if trained correctly.


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

I would like to add in to this that while this technique works for dogs almost all the time, I dont think it would work for horses often. Horses are prey animals while dogs are predators. They have completely different brain wiring.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

natisha said:


> Heck yes I'd retreat, not that it would do me much good. I'm assuming we'd be in water & the dolphin can swim faster than me so it is dominant.
> The difference with horses, beside both residing on land, is they don't know they can be dominant if trained correctly.


what on earth does that even mean? lol!

Why would they not know they could be dominant if it's basically their sole purpose for interacting with us which is the impression I get from members of this forum.

Does that mean that if you are in the horse's home territory you can just deal with them being 'dominant'?

conservation training has been purely +R for a very long time. Try getting a tiger to put his tail to a cage for jabs by 'dominating' him. You are in for a tough time and a lot of pain! But shape placement of the tail by feeding meat and you have a happy healthy calm manageable tiger. A horse can cause far less damage and can be just as compliant no matter what you want to do with it.


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

AceyGrace said:


> Absolutely... the key part of that would be "something the horse wants" If your horse doesn't want you in his stable then to leave couldn't possibly be a punishment could it.


No but it definitely reinforces bad behavior.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

kapbob8 said:


> I would like to add in to this that while this technique works for dogs almost all the time, I dont think it would work for horses often. Horses are prey animals while dogs are predators. They have completely different brain wiring.


this is just another very popular myth among -R trainers to dismiss science. 

I have successfully trained all different types of animals in this way. Anything with a brain can be taught any lesson using any quadrant of operant conditioning.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

dolphin's, attacking?? I leave this thread for a day and it's changed to being unrecognizable!


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

AceyGrace said:


> what on earth does that even mean? lol!
> 
> Why would they not know they could be dominant if it's basically their sole purpose for interacting with us which is the impression I get from members of this forum.
> 
> ...



I think she is saying that she wouldn't know how to be dominant with a dolphin. Horses and humans both being land animals, it is much easier for us to convey dominance towards a horse. With a dolphin that would be kinda hard to do. Not even sure why a dolphin was brought into a forum about a nippy horse though?


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> dolphin's, attacking?? I leave this thread for a day and it's changed to being unrecognizable!


I agree. I think I might open a new thread and I welcome all who will talk about my nippy horse while staying on topic ! I can't possibly take anything good out of this talking about dolphins. Not helpful at all lol.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

kapbob8 said:


> No but it definitely reinforces bad behavior.


the horse can't know it is 'bad behaviour' if it is reinforced. 

leaving the stable would only be -P if the horse wanted you there. For the horse to want you there he has to associate you with good things.

If step 1 is not completed you can't use leaving the stable as a teaching method to address nipping.

So yes - If you don't plan on using +R properly then don't leave the stable. Continue to push your horse into learned helplessness. It's all or nothing.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> dolphin's, attacking?? I leave this thread for a day and it's changed to being unrecognizable!


because I was asked about using respect based training and how it applies. Marine animals are social animals that are not trained using dominance methods so I was illustrating that the OP does not need to smack her horse to get it to stop nipping.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

No the -P is you NOT leaving the stable. If the horse is used to biting you and then you leave by remaining in the stable when it bites you are withholding the reward it is used to getting. Thus encouraging it to escilate its behaviour to recieve the 'reward' of you leaving.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

OoLaurenoO said:


> No the -P is you NOT leaving the stable. If the horse is used to biting you and then you leave by remaining in the stable when it bites you are withholding the reward it is used to getting. Thus encouraging it to escilate its behaviour to recieve the 'reward' of you leaving.


I'm a little confused as to what you are saying :s

If the horse doesn't want you in the stable and you stay that is positive punishment.

If he doesn't want you there and you leave that is negative reinforcement.

I think you might be attributing a little too much to each quadrant. Withholding a reward would really be an aid in extinction. If the animal gets no reward the behaviour it displays simply extinguishes... A fantastic tool to use in +R

What are you taking away in your scenario to make it NEGATIVE reinforcement?


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

I have moved this to a new thread

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/new-thread-nippy-mare-566522/

Please stay on topic.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Learned helplessness can only occur if the animal anticipates a smack regardless of behaviour. I'm sure the op wasn't going around hitting her horse everytime she saw it regardless of what it was doing so no risk of that occurring.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

OP 
You were offered some good advice. And you should just ignore folks if the stray off a bit.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

AceyGrace said:


> Your method that you shared with the owner sounds reasonable but if it were my dog I would not have thrown him into such an excitable/difficult situation. This provides a really hard choice for the animal where he has to choose between a bit of food and a run. You always have to have the highest reinforcer until behaviours are conditioned. That dog was not conditioned enough to be given such a tough decision.
> 
> Let's not forget that any training takes time and consistency. I invest a lot of short low threshold sessions into my dogs/horses so that their responses are reliable. If I didn't I couldn't trust that they will give me the behaviour I want every time I ask for it without fail.
> 
> ...


How people train is up to them. Using the PR method seems to me that to get results you avoid issues until much later in the training, as with suggesting that you would avoid letting the dog get into the situation. I cannot agree with this, they have to learn to behave and listen under any situation.

I have not set about training as for obedience, any of my dogs. I have not gone out with an individual one and taught it to sit, stay, or whatever, yet they are all obedient. 
I have them walking off leash to heel or behind me before they are ever on leash, with a pup. An older dog, with bad habits, has to be leash trained before it will do as it is told.

Watch Clinton Anderson address a problem and he deals with it instantly whereas Parelli faffs around and results aren't seen for weeks. (Not that he is practising the tequnique) 

As for dogs not having a pack/ pecking order that is total and utter rubbish. Have three dogs of my own and also take my sister's 13 year old Springer Spaniel walking and she spends the day with me. There is absolutely no dispute that she is 'top dog' She is not a fighter but if she is lying in the porch and the Pointer keeps going in and out, stepping over her, she will take so much and then just with a look refuse to let him past. 

When I was working I fed the dogs, with the boss and the girl that worked with me, Foxhound pups. I was regularly feeding 18 plus, often 22. 
I only raw fed so would get the meat from the garage, have it on top of a metal rubbish bin and cut chunks for each animal. 
All the dogs would sit around me, giving me distance, wait for me to call their name and throw them their chunk. Non ever attempted to catch someone else's food even though it was thrown past them. 
When someone came to stay with their dog, it too would join the feed line. If it was excited and bouncing around, my GSD or Border Collie would go up to it and stand over it forcing it to stay still and calm down, knowing that nothing was fed until they were all behaving. I never taught them this, they learned it themselves. 
When you have a large pack like that, then you will see that there IS a pack order. 
It is the same with horses. I never always had the time to spend with the youngsters. They had the basics as foals and that was it. Often they only ever had halters on when the farrier trimmed them. They came in at night during the winter months into a big loose barn, they did this loose. 
By the time they were two years old they would stand for the farrier in the loose shed with others around them, without being held or tied. They would stand in the yard and allow me to hose the mud from their legs without being held or tied. They just learned it by watching the older ones go through the same process. To start they might well have been altered, as weanlings, the forst winter, but that was only for very minimal times. 

when training any animal I use psychology to understand where they are coming from. Being lazy if I have other animals, I use them to help me. An example would be if I was lon reigning a youngster out and met a tractor and trailer filling the road leaving only a few feet to go past, I would send the dog ahead past it giving the horse a lead without it realising so. I might be incorrect but I have the impression that you would, if the horse was worried about going past, take it back to where it could have more room to let the tractor pass. This, to me would be avoiding an issue.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> How people train is up to them. Using the PR method seems to me that to get results you avoid issues until much later in the training, as with suggesting that you would avoid letting the dog get into the situation. I cannot agree with this, they have to learn to behave and listen under any situation.
> 
> I have not set about training as for obedience, any of my dogs. I have not gone out with an individual one and taught it to sit, stay, or whatever, yet they are all obedient.
> I have them walking off leash to heel or behind me before they are ever on leash, with a pup. An older dog, with bad habits, has to be leash trained before it will do as it is told.
> ...


We have different understandings of avoiding an issue. Yes you are right I would not push my horse into a scenario where it felt anxious - thus increasing the chance of panic and flying off. But I do not feel the issue is avoided because I would 100% get that horse past that tractor without fail! As I have said many times I do not settle for poor training - that is when things get dangerous. 

I get the feeling that even though I explain my training process articulately and with examples that many members choose to envisage me coming up against problems/set backs and just giving up... Not sure how that impression was made because I am very consistent and diligent in my training.

The scenarios you describe with your dogs are very common in hunting hounds and I have had to rehabilitate many of these myself. This pack mentality as you see it is actually based on cooperation not hierarchy. Please do any research on dominance theory in dogs before discussing anecdotal evidence like "One time my dog did this so it must be true of all dogs". The dogs you describe have learnt those behaviours and it is likely they have learnt them from each other using some/all of the quadrants of conditioning.

I have said before and will say again that all quadrants of operant conditioning will work if applied correctly!

BUT this is not empirical evidence for respect in animals by any stretch of the imagination. Respect is a human construct which requires higher order functioning. Simple neuroscience demonstrates that both dogs and horses struggle with this concept.

Animals may have status in the relational interactions in the same way as any human does but they do not learn innately by seeking to gain and give respect.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

OoLaurenoO said:


> Learned helplessness can only occur if the animal anticipates a smack regardless of behaviour. I'm sure the op wasn't going around hitting her horse everytime she saw it regardless of what it was doing so no risk of that occurring.


The horse is nipping because she believes there is a reason to nip (though we have yet to discover what that is) so she has an emotional response to that trigger which is clearly an unpleasant one in her mind. If when she feels that emotion she receives pain and discomfort this will exacerbate her emotional state.

Learned helplessness occurs when the subject feels as though she cannot escape the emotional state she is in. Therefore the most beneficial thing to do is to shut down.

I really think it's great that you have clearly taken the time to research learning theory. Maybe try looking up some great +R trainers such as Karen Pryor Alex Kurland and the late Sophia Yin who actually experimented with all quadrants in horses and even talked about the benefits of -R in their training.

These people are scientists and behaviourists and experts in their field not because they do things I like but because they are impartial and objective. They genuinely couldn't care less if +R or -R is more effective as long as they get paid at the end of it. This is how we actually learn about behaviour - not by watching our pets for a while and drawing our own conclusions. Most people are not qualified to do that and don't know how to perform a proper experiment. We have to rely on science to teach us about how our animals learn or we are doing them a disservice. It's part of my job to stay up to date with modern research in behaviour. if I didn't do that how could I possibly give people advice about modern research in behaviour. It's as simple as typing learning theory into google scholar.... not sure why people are so against do that :/


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Watch Clinton Anderson address a problem and he deals with it instantly whereas Parelli faffs around and results aren't seen for weeks. (Not that he is practising the tequnique).


Also this is the reason I teach training lol. I am absolutely not a NH trainer and would never advocate using Parelli's techniques. He is a -R trainer exactly like Clinton (who's videos make me physically sick so I will refrain from watching them).

Both exercise escalating pressure and release and I have seen the Parelli's do some very detrimental work. I do not see him as a 'kind' alternative and do not preach his methods.

Most people when I say I am a +R trainer say "oh like Parelli" ... This is why I teach!


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

They learnt it by consequences. Harass the older dog, try to take its food, bad consequence, give him space, wait my turn, get fed, good consequence. Any animal that lives in a group, be it pack, family, herd ect will form some kind of hierarchy. Anyone who has spent time around a group of animals can see that with their own eyes. When a pack or herd animal dies or leaves the group the group will fall into chaos until a new order of some kind is established. They all have different roles and responsibilities. Here's a horrible example that I don't really like thinking about but it blew my mind so I'll explain it here. Disclaimer, this is an upsetting story..

As we all know a herd of horses has a lead mare. I spent some time many years ago working on a large property in central queensland. I'm talking over a million hectares large. They had wild horses, most of them pony sized and starving. Now let me be clear that I do not condone the shooting of wild horses.. I have three brumbies myself but that is how they were often managed up there. When shooting the horses they would always wait until they could identify the lead mare, they would then shoot her first. (If they couldn't identify her they would not take the shot and risk an injured animal or orphan foal) One of her crucial roles was to lead the mob away whenever there was danger. With her dead the rest of the mob would stand around and could be shot one by one without any of them running off. If they shot any but the lead mare first the whole mob would be gone in two seconds flat. That is how important and ingrained the herd mentality is. Did the horses understand what was going on? To some degree they would have to. But there boss didn't say go so they would stay. If there was no hirachy and it was every man for himself do you think they would stand around like that? Surely not..


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

One of the studies used to 'discover' learned helplessness was to put a dog in a cage with a small barrier they could jump over into another section. They would play a sound and then zap the floor. The dog quickly learned that by jumping the barrier when it heard the sound it could avoid the zap. They then made the barrier higher so the dog could not jump the barrier and when it heard the sound it recieved the zap. After a while they lowered the barrier and discovered that the dogs would not jump the barrier to avoid the zap even though previously they had been able to. - Learned helplessness. They previously could not avoid the zap no matter what they tried so they gave up. Animals learn behaviour by consequences, they can very easily work out that a smack follows a bite and can associate it as such. If they could not associate actions with consequences they would not be able to be taught no matter what kind of quadrant you used.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

OoLaurenoO said:


> One of the studies used to 'discover' learned helplessness was to put a dog in a cage with a small barrier they could jump over into another section. They would play a sound and then zap the floor. The dog quickly learned that by jumping the barrier when it heard the sound it could avoid the zap. They then made the barrier higher so the dog could not jump the barrier and when it heard the sound it recieved the zap. After a while they lowered the barrier and discovered that the dogs would not jump the barrier to avoid the zap even though previously they had been able to. - Learned helplessness. They previously could not avoid the zap no matter what they tried so they gave up. Animals learn behaviour by consequences, they can very easily work out that a smack follows a bite and can associate it as such. If they could not associate actions with consequences they would not be able to be taught no matter what kind of quadrant you used.


That's a great example of empirical evidence of learned helplessness 

To be clear - The horse in the OP's question is not yet a victim of learned helplessness. My point was that if you continue to relentlessly smack this horse when she is already in a negative mind set you will see learned helplessness because as far as she is concerned aggression begets aggression and that is a viscous cycle. The horse has no way of learning that there are other options that don't result in pain.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Perhaps.. If you could read your horses mind and gave her a smack every time she was in a negative state of mind regardless of behaviour.
But as long as she can exhibit a behaviour to avoid the smack she can not reach the point of learned helplessness. That's the whole point- regardless of their behaviour they can not avoid the consequence. The theory is built on actions not on feelings.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

I feel like I've said it a hundred times but I'll say it again. R+ is fantastic for teaching or encouraging behaviour. I use it (as does almost everyone) all the time. I'm not suggesting you walk into the stall and antagonize your horse until it bites so you can deliver a smack. Just to be very clear. But who would do that anyway?? You may walk into the stall, scratch her favorite spot, give her some food, tell her how clever and good she is, whatever. When she tries to bite she gets a smack. She's got plenty of options aside from bite and recieve a smack.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Just because you know all the options she has readily available to her does not mean she does.

If I came into your room having decided a behaviour I am going to punish and smacked you hard and pushed you around you would start to dread me coming into your room.

here is the sequence of events;

You are feeling stressed or are in pain (whatever reason the horse has to express her feelings by nipping)

I come into your room and fiddle around with all your things and get in your space.

You get annoyed and show me you are unhappy by pushing me away.

I smack you in the face.

You get more annoyed because now you are stressed and your face hurts.

I continue to antagonise the situation by touching you and your things more.

You get more frustrated and tell me you are unhappy but I ignore you and you push me away again.

I smack you even harder in the face.

Now you know that you cannot escape your feelings of frustration and unhappiness so you sit there and allow me to touch all your things and do whatever I want with you because you know there is no escape from those feelings of frustration.

The feelings do not go away - only the behaviours do.

Eventually you hear me coming to the door and your conditioned response is frustration but your behaviours do not show that.

Learned helplessness.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

You are assuming I am always in a foul mood every time I see you. Why would that be? Am I sick of being in my room? Lucky some days you come and get me out and take me for a nice walk, or let me out to have some free time outside. Pretty big assumption to assume that I am always so miserable. Perhaps I am not upset at all, and quite happy to see you. Let's also remember that if I decide to bite or kick you you may bruise. If a horse decides to bite or kick a bruise would be nice, getting scalped or killed is a real possibility.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

And as I mentioned earlier you wouldn't go into the stall and ONLY disipline. So if I displayed a wanted behaviour you might give me something nice or tell me I'm good. It wouldn't take me long to work out if I displayed good behaviours it was great when you came in. If I was a brat it wasn't so enjoyable. We also have the added advantage of being able to speak the same language. Horses can't communicate with us using words so we all have to communicate using a 'language' everyone understands. Good behaviour good things happen. Bad behavior is uncomfortable.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

It only takes one hard smack to shut a lot of animals down. I have seen many animals learn helplessness in 1-2 trials.

Essentially it is what the handler is looking for when they train in this way. Behaviour to stop regardless of emotional state.

A far more effective way of teaching behaviour is to change the subjects emotional state. Then behaviours change as a side effect of that.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

That's the difference, I understand R+ and all the benefit, and think it is great. But I also understand the flip side of training and can implement it when the situation requires it. As you said earlier you don't understand or can't implement P+ or any kind of negative consequence very well. And as a result you saw animals that did not respond well and possibly also saw plenty of learned helplessness. You mentioned in another thread that before you began positive only training you caused dogs to become so damaged that had to be euthanased. I can assure you that if used correctly it is very clear to the animal that it can control its environment by using its actions with zero lasting negative effects on their feelings. I for one would much rather my horse be upset for two seconds and then never try to bite me again then to spend weeks or months with the risk of losing my face or my life.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

I care about how my horse feels. If that makes me a 'bad trainer' in your eyes we really will just have to agree to disagree. 

I cannot fathom why anyone would choose punishment and pressure when there are other reliable options. You say you understand these other approaches and agree that they work... Why would you not choose to use them :s


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Because firstly I believe that if an animal, be it horse, dog, human ect never experienced any stress or anxiety then they are never offered the chance to learn how to control or manage that feeling. If they don't know how to cope with it in a controlled environment then when the unexpected happens you have already set them up to fail. Life's not all about sunshine and roses, I want to take my horse out on trails, out to the beach, ride it out to horse competitions. These are all unpredictable environments and I want to know that if a loose dogs comes charging over and bites my horse on the leg that he understands that Yep, this is pretty bad, it's scary, it hurts, I don't like this at all I am stressed but my rider will help to find the answer I need to relieve the pressure. If my horse kicks out through a fence and gets his leg stuck instead of totally selling out and ripping itself to threads it understands that ok, there is a pressure on my leg. Kicking and struggling will not help, I just need to stand still and someone will come and get me out. Yep, it's pretty uncomfortable and I am unhappy but if I just wait help will arrive soon. (Yep I've had a horse strung up with both back legs off the ground who stood patiently while we cut him free and he then calmly led out. Admittedly we were lucky but if he had no concept it would have been much worse.. He had a few superficial cuts but that was all.) I want to know that if I am riding with friends and their horses bolted my horse would understand that even though he really really really wanted to go running with everyone else and not stay there and be mountain lion bait he had to follow my instructions and wait even though at that time there was nothing in the world he wanted to do more. And I want to know that even if my horse is injured, having a bad day, frightened, collicing, or whatever else I can get to him, I can handle him safely, and I can help him. Have you ever seen a severely collicing horse? Because I have, I've seen one smash through four fences because it was in so much pain it was totally beyond reason and just trying to escape. It had to be euthanased and it wasn't a pleasant experience for anyone least of all its owners. If your horse only complies because it wants to, ultimately you are going to come across situarions when it doesn't or it can't (because the situation is to much for it) By using pressure and release in those situations of severe pressure the horse if far more likely to look to the rider/handler for the solution to the problem. A horse that has never been put under pressure will have zero concept of what is happening or how to make it stop. They will only panic further. Do I want my horse to be bitten by a dog, stuck in a fence or be hurt or uncomfortable in any way? Of course not. And obviously you would never physically harm a horse in training. Ever. But mentally my horse can understand that just because the going gets tough and things are a bit uncomfortable it doesn't mean it's the end of the world. All he has to do is listen to me and we will get through the difficult period and then it's all sunshine and roses again! My gelding is 12 years old now and it is extremly rare for him to require a correction. Mostly he recieves only positive reinforcement. He comes when he is called and gets a mandarin (he goes crazy for mandarins.) We might go for a ride and when we come back he gets a good brush and a scratch which he so loves. He has zero problems doing whatever I ask and is always happy to come see me when I'm in the paddock. I would say, when training I would use 90% R+ and 10% P+. Once you have passed the training stage I would use about 98% R+ and 2% P+. So it's not like I flog my horse like a crazy person. He knows full well how clever he is and how much fun it is to come up and go for a ride or do whatever. He also understand however that certain behaviours are not ok. But ultimately I think you are right. We will have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to convince you any more then you will convince me.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I am not going to enter into this conversation more than this one time. I have elected to stay out of the other 'positive reinforcement' training discussions because I find them rather irrelevant to actually training useful, well-adjusted horses that can happily perform the jobs that their owners need them to do. 

I agree that trick training and other interactions taken with horses, dogs, dolphins and whatever that involve teaching simple behaviors that are being added to an animal's performance routine can be taught to SOME animals with nothing but positive interactions with their trainer. I also have known (or at least been around) several of these trainers over the years -- simply because I was curious just what could be accomplished with these methods and wanted to incorporate as many of these techniques as possible into my horse teaching methods. 

I found that they just 'threw away' the animals that did not give the response they needed. They usually said that only a small percentage of animals are suitable for strictly positive training and the ones I found still used some scolding or negative reinforcement, even if it was only negative voice or tone. They looked for certain types of dogs and certain types of horses. They would work with a horse for a while and if it did not exhibit the desire for the P reinforcement or they found it too disinterested to stay engaged, they simply threw it away. I found several horses for one such trainer because I learned what kind of horses worked well for him. They worked because they were intelligent (not always a big+ in training) had a great curiosity and were very motivated by P+ reinforcements. It certainly did not work on all horses for any of the trainers I met.

But, in addition to these observations, AG, I will just ask you the same question I ask everyone I have run into that wants to use ONLY positive reinforcement:

Show me the horse you have taught beautiful flying lead changes to; Show me the horse you have taught to work cattle properly; Show me the roping horses you have taught to perform correctly and win at a high level; Show me the open jumpers or winning barrel racing horses you have taught their trade to; Show me the vicious attacking horse (not one that just nips or bites) that has crippled and almost killed one or more people that you made safe and useful that you 're-trained' with these methods of yours. I've trained several horses that have HAPPILY performed at high levels and several of them started out as very spoiled horses.  

There is a huge difference difference between 'playing' with animals and teaching them to do simple little things like standing in a certain spot or going forward past a scary thing and doing high performance activities that require great effort and perfection. [Heck, our babies will go anywhere we point them by there 3rd or 4th ride and we never have to hit them or antagonize them and they certainly are not 'helpless'. 

So, please post some videos of horses that you have trained to be useful horses happily performing a difficult job and please explain how you got them there without interrupting unwanted actions and without using any pressure and release training techniques. When I see that you have done this successfully, I will start listening to all of the rubbish about how detrimental pressure and release is and that there is no herd or pack mentality.

On that note, please post links to the accredited studies that show this pack and herd hierarchy does not exist. I, too, have observed such activity for more than 5 decades. 

I'm waiting -- but not holding my breath. Cherie


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

I feel like you are just not reading my posts lol

I have give explicit examples of my own horses and horses I have prfessionally trained when we have been in unexpected and potentially dangerous scenarios and their training has kept us all safe calm and HAPPY. You seem to think I don't ride or do anything with my horses lol. All the situations and activities you describe are well known to me and I mannage them effectively.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Excuse me! I carefully suffered through every post.

You didn't read MY post. Getting from point A to point B safely is not high performance. Show me the winning barrel racing horse to cutting horse or even a balanced or sliding stop at high speed. Getting safely from point A to B is stuff green horses should do after a few rides. Show me the competitive level horses you have professionally trained. Let me see their list of winnings.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Cherie I only just saw your post, I apologise. I'm on my phone and will post relevant information before the end of the day  thank ou for your interest and open mind. Though I see 2 posts there... Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

This is an article explaining learned helplessness in horses which is most common when inexperienced handlers try to utilise punishment and -R.

There's some ever popular anecdotal evidence that you guys love.

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This article highlights the improper application of ethology in training of modern day animals (ie: dominance theory)

http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/article/S1558-7878(07)00135-9/abstract


Just to demonstrate how easy it would be to educate yourself on the debunking of dominance theory in dogs this is the first page of google if you simply type in "dominance theory in dogs"

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sour...=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=dominance+theory+in+dogs



And because I am not (entirely) biased - this is an article demonstrating the productivity of ALL quadrants when teaching... but +R is the safest way to know that you are not damaging an animal from a welfare point of view.

Applying learning theory to the management of the horse: the difference between getting it right and getting it wrong - MILLS - 2010 - Equine Veterinary Journal - Wiley Online Library



Beginnings of clicker training the flying lead change.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYUxMqMpVOk


Dressage pure clicker training. Notice how most of the cues were taught to look like traditional equitation so Bella can perform her test like any other horse and you would never know she wasn't taught with pressure release.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5txrc4TkxCM


Although sports performance may be your primary goal the OP was about a behavioural issue - And of course no matter how well your barrel horse turns if you can't touch his head you have a huge issue.
Here is a short video with a small variation of behavioural issues solved with +R. Not masked or ignored - SOLVED.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lWmReUfgNU


Another fantastically useful horse who may not be grand prix but I bet her handler is grateful for her amazing learned behaviours. You can bet these weren't taught with domination.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a47ToWtrfY

I'm afraid I have no experience teaching western disciplines because I teach in the UK and we sadly don't do a lot of western but in terms of dressage I have successfully taught the principles of straightness balance collection etc. The horses I work with are mostly eventers and hunters. +R teaches them self control 'manners' and safe default behaviours as well as perfectly shaped skills that aid their sports performance. I want a tucked leg I reward a tucked leg. I want a should in I lure a shoulder in and reward it... It's not a difficult concept.

I also would like to mention the issue of correlation versus causation. Most horse people unfortunately mock and shun +R so there are fewer examples of their work. That doesn't mean it doesn't work it means people aren't interested in doing it. I can post a million examples of amazing performance in dogs taught without dominance and with purely +R but it would be great if you could do some research yourself


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/wolves-cooperate-each-other-dogs-form-hierarchies

To me saying that dogs don't form any fo of hierarchy is like saying the sky is pick. Seeing large groups of dogs living and working together I have seen it withy own eyes. So I'll just wait until they disprove the disproof of that.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Sorry, it's 4.45 in the morning here but hopefully you guys get the gist.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

http://news.sciencemag.org/brain-behavior/2014/08/wolves-cooperate-dogs-submit-study-suggests

http://www.vetmeduni.ac.at/en/messerli/science/cognition/staff/zsofia-viranyi/

http://www.wolfscience.at/en/aboutus/team/friederikerange/


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

It can be really hard to completely rethink something we believe so wholeheartedly so I am not surprised by your response 

The links you provided are a little confusing... It seems you have found one ethologist (already evidenced as a poor source of modern training by a previous study I posted) who may believe dominance is not complete rubbish. However you have not managed to find a single experimental study that can document this (ethology is by nature not experimental - this is why we try not to use it in modern science).

I assume you had to try very hard to get even that so well done  but hopefully that small bit of research has planted a seed.

Unfortunately the reason our animal training is so stunted at the moment in this industry is because people find letting go of dominance theory incredibly difficult. It has happened in the dog world and we are slowly getting there (the reason I am so dumbfounded to find so many intelligent trainers on this forum who still believe in its useful application) but sadly the horse world is still struggling with dominance and there is very little research in the area.

As a qualified behaviourist and researcher I can only hope that this myth reaches more people.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

If you felt like following the links you could read the reports and the study yourself. I also work in the behaviour industry and have seen first hand exactly what goes on. Any animal with a significant behaviour problems is deemed to have abnormal problems with its brain and is euthanased. Regularly. Every single day I see owners that are told euthanasia is the only option when I know from experience that three corrections could have that dog living out the rest of its days with no lasting negative consequences. EVERY DAY. So no, I'm not a big fan of positive only training. I think it's ludicrus to kill an animal rather then make it uncomfortable for a short period of time. And in regards to those articles no I didn't have to look very hard, I have already read them and found them extremly interesting. I would suggest you do too but there's not really any point since you have already decided that are rubbish. It's a shame because there are some really cool findings and great info there.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

I understand positive reinforcement to encourage a learned behavior such as is demonstrated in the video link posted


> Here is a short video with a small variation of behavioural issues solved with +R. Not masked or ignored - SOLVED.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lWmReUfgNU


. However, none of these behaviors are aggressive or dominating. 

I'd be interested in a demonstration of solving aggressive behavior by positive reinforcement. I just don't see how in blazes it could be done without putting people at risk. If a horse nips at me, or charges me, or knocks me down, or pushes me, rears, etc. am I supposed to click and give him a treat whenever he doesn't do any of those bad things? I think not - he's just going to run me over even more.


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

AceyGrace said:


> To be clear - The horse in the OP's question is not yet a victim of learned helplessness. My point was that if you continue to relentlessly smack this horse when she is already in a negative mind set you will see learned helplessness because as far as she is concerned aggression begets aggression and that is a viscous cycle. The horse has no way of learning that there are other options that don't result in pain.


You are seriously making me out to be a bad person. I DO NOT go around relentlessly hitting my horse. I love her dearly but I need to discipline her when she does something that is a danger to me. And trust me, I give her plently of time and space to make the correct decision so do NOT ever say again that I go around relentlessly hitting my horse. Don't assume things, especially since I have said before that I only hit her after she bites me so she knows its bad.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

It's ok kapbob nobody else thinks that. I can assure you that your horse will be no worse for-ware from a few well timed tune ups.


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

Update:

I went to the barn today and her nipping was much more under control. She wouldn't keep coming back to get me. I have continued with what I was doing before, hitting her when she tried to bite me and then moving her around. Nipping has gone down dramatically.

I also got her a jolly ball and put it in her stall today and she seemed to really enjoy playing with it. I think I will get her a hay bag so that her hay lasts longer throughout the day. She is also going out for longer (which I requested) and she seems to be much happier.


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## kapbob8 (Mar 18, 2015)

OoLaurenoO said:


> It's ok kapbob nobody else thinks that. I can assure you that your horse will be no worse for-ware from a few well timed tune ups.


Thank you!


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

OoLaurenoO said:


> If you felt like following the links you could read the reports and the study yourself. I also work in the behaviour industry and have seen first hand exactly what goes on. Any animal with a significant behaviour problems is deemed to have abnormal problems with its brain and is euthanased. Regularly. Every single day I see owners that are told euthanasia is the only option when I know from experience that three corrections could have that dog living out the rest of its days with no lasting negative consequences. EVERY DAY. So no, I'm not a big fan of positive only training. I think it's ludicrus to kill an animal rather then make it uncomfortable for a short period of time. And in regards to those articles no I didn't have to look very hard, I have already read them and found them extremly interesting. I would suggest you do too but there's not really any point since you have already decided that are rubbish. It's a shame because there are some really cool findings and great info there.


Since it is so easy to find up to date peer reviewed research that suggests the existence of dominance in dogs in controlled conditions could you post some studies? Not just anecdotal evidence and random people drawing their own conclusions about someone else's comparative research. No modern day researcher I know would take ethological observations into account when weighing up evidence. 

I have never known a dog to be put down because of poorly timed treat receiving. I have known many dogs be put down because they were trained with pain and aggression. Again I will emphasise the importance of CORRECT training. Of course a dog with no training will come up against behavioural problems that could result in euthanasia. You cannot blame +R for euthanasia! 

Kapbob I never said you relentlessly hit your horse. I was describing how learned helplessness might occur in a horse. I don't believe you hit your horse any more or harder than anyone else on this forum.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

https://dogsintraining.wordpress.com/2011/03/12/positive-bias/
Not a scientific study but still worth a read. (Except the bit about not tying up horses... This guy works with dogs not horses but hey, no ones perfect right?)  
Anyway, feel free to follow the links to the scientific studies if you so desire. Including the one about how the operant conditioning broke down readily in the face of instinctual behaviours.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

I have seen plenty of dogs euthanized regardless of how well times the treats are given, often for demonstrating behaviours like killing cats and other small animals. getting out and harassing the neighbors sheep. All natural behaviours and all self rewarding. Unfortunately no one ever mentioned to the dog could he please not do that. Instead one second he is merrily doing something he has no idea is wrong. Next second he's at the vet getting euthanased.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Nothing you are finding is up to date empirical research and I can't see any links to such research? :s

I also debate the quality of the author of that article as he/she does not understand the proper terms to use with regard to operant conditioning (ie: correction is not punishment - punishment is pointless) and is therefore unqualified to be teaching people about them which is implied by the link that you describe (which I can't see).


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Breland/misbehavior.htm

You didn't seem to have an answer to my last post. Why is it less cruel to euthanaise or forever contain a dog then to help them understand a behaviour like chasing and killing livestock is not ok? And in regards to the writing style, the article is not directed to profesionals it is directed at dog owners. I can understand why he would put it the way he did. Especially with all the positive only trainers who go around telling dog owners how cruel they are to their much loved family pets for considering disciplining fluffy for killing rabbits when really she had mental problems and had to be put to sleep. If something is published and it matches what happens in the real world we say that the theory matches the facts. When something is published that doesn't match up with the real world I can not accept it as fact. Not when my own eyes tell me it is wrong.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

When I said up to date I was looking for the last 5 years... I didn't think you would come back with reviews from 1961 ****! I would be doing a disservice to science by even reading that...

It is less dangerous to use appetitives to rehabilitate an animal than to use aversives because aggression begets aggression and the best you can hope for in many situations is learned helplessness in the guise of 'submission'.

That's the interesting thing about our own eyes... Our sensory perception is not anywhere near as accurate as empirical evidence. If we all simply blindly believe whatever we want then I may as well say the sky is pink because I won't allow evidence to tell me otherwise - my perception is the only important thing.

It is a shame that trainers like the one in the 'blog' you posted still exist to discourage open minded thinking in people who are already using far too many cognitive biases in their approach to training.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Here I'll get you started...

Dominance in domestic dogs revisited: Useful habit and useful construct?

But for now I think I am going to have to leave horse forum. I always manage to feel dissapointed with my interactions here and clearly it is not the forum for me.

Congrats on keeping horse forum insular archaic and uneducated  You guys win! Hopefully in a few years the horse world will keep up with the rest of us


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

That's ok. I think I'll stick with my outdated methods. My horse sure doesn't seem to mind.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I cannot remember what it was but recent animal behaviour research, for which the researchers were paid thousands of pounds, was something that anyone who had worked with animals could have told you in an instant. 

Pavlov came to the conclusion that if a bell was rung when the dogs were fed they would react if the bell rang at any time then, stop reacting after it rang and no feed. 

Don't exactly have to be Einstein to realise this is conditioning.

No matter what research these so called scientists come out with others will come out with something different weeks later.

My animals trust me, horses and dogs, they know I am in charge and they want to work with me in a partnership. 

Just yesterday the nutty Pointer I have from rescue, was hunting, I heard him yelp and he soon appeared holding a front leg up. I thought he had broken his front leg. He hobbled to me, sat and held the leg up. He had driven a blackthorn through his joint. I managed to remove it and the moment I did, off he went. That to me is trust, knowing that I would help him. 

One brood mare I had would call to me when she was about to deliver. She never did this when foaling away. 

How can scientific people know of these things when they are very unlikely to happen under research conditions because there is no realationship between animal and researcher.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

AceyGrace said:


> I care about how my horse feels. If that makes me a 'bad trainer' in your eyes we really will just have to agree to disagree.
> 
> I cannot fathom why anyone would choose punishment and pressure when there are other reliable options. You say you understand these other approaches and agree that they work... Why would you not choose to use them :s


I too have suffered through trying to understand what you are saying, but find it unbelievable that someone who professes to be a "trainer" (a) does not think horses "respect" (you have obviously never watched a heard) (b) but they have "feelings"? (c) still has not addressed how to stop an already established bad behavior.

I am with Cherie. And yes, I could not get past you and caring about how the horse "feels"….will now go back and finish reading further posts….hoping to actually see some thing of substance. (without dolphins and dogs, which obviously are NOT horses, and do not think like them.)


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I know! I still am just shaking my head.

Someone thinks that horses are so sensitive to 'feelings' that they won't correct one with dangerous habits and at the same time think they are too stupid to know the difference between a person disciplining them and just slapping and poking at them for the joy of seeing them jump in fear. Then, this same horse can reason like a person and dread seeing that person because they rationalize that they are going to hit them again for nothing. WOW! These are the educated experts teaching people how things work. I think I'll stay with uncommon COMMON SENSE and let the educated fools just teach away.

I have found that horses trust someone a LOT more when that person has set firm boundaries and that horses know where they stand at all times. The one thing horses do not understand is inconsistency which is why I preach 100% consistency all of the time. 

And why a person would ever think that there is a better way for a horse to learn than 'pressure and release', just blows my mind. This is the only thing 'natural' about 'natural horsemanship'. It not only is effective, with horses understanding it so well, horses can be conditioned to the point that the pressure can be very slight and they can 'tune in', listen attentively and respond without any fear at all.

I doubt there is anyone in the country that has 'happier' horses than we have. They meet us at the gate, they keep their ears up and do everything we ask them to do. They are totally respectful. Not one would even think of even laying an ear back at one of us, much less bite or kick us. Not a one will even duck or move its head if I wave my arm in its face or swing the end of a lead-rope right next to it. They have never been hit -- not one of them. They have no fear of us at all. If I could wave a magic wand today and make them do anything better, I do not know what it would be. I do not know what could be 'fixed', yet every single one will go anywhere I point its head and do anything I ask from it, with its ears up waiting to see if I want to do anything else. This is not helplessness; This is total trust coupled with total obedience.

I think training horses without boundaries is about as good of a plan as raising children without any boundaries. We all know how well that works.

Anyone who thinks we don't care about our horses is just on another planet. If people do not think there is a middle ground between abuse and boundaries, either has such a closed mind or has just never been around a good 'effective but kind' training program.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

I'm with Cherie could not agree more. Uncommon sense all the way.


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