# Conformation of TB Sire



## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Here is a very well bred, and very successful racehorse - and one that is quite affordable and has decent results so far - one that I'm thinking of using, certainly on a shortlist,

Any opinions on him regarding general conformation ? It's quite important because the only thing _wrong_ with him is that he's not very tall (I think they say 15.3 1/2), so I'd like to think he's very correct otherwise, (generally for a 3yo here we want 16'2, even 16' will turn away a lot of potential buyers)

Thanks.

(not that it's important, but if you want to see here he is:
Beat Hollow Horse Pedigree
and even more importantly there are lots of great horses (and sires) on his dam side (Oasis Dream, Kingman, Reefscape, Martaline, just to name a few ..)












Also, just as an aside - does anyone have an opinion on using a 'shorter / smaller' sire for a mare on her first covering ... I've heard different opinions on it, and it does seem to make some sense ?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

He is absolutely lovely! Not much to dislike about him, IMO. 

Nice shoulder angle, lovely pasterns (length and angle), nice straight front legs (a little tied in behind the knee, but nothing to write home about), nice hind leg angles. I like his neck and head, even though his throatlatch seems a wee bit thick, to me. 

Something about his back is bothering me, but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe just a larger wither than I'm used to (after all, my guy is ridiculously mutton-withered :lol: )?


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> (a little tied in behind the knee, but nothing to write home about),


Yeah, that's something you basically can't avoid in a racehorse anymore! .. it's just the normal now.



> Something about his back is bothering me, but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe just a larger wither than I'm used to


He is 18yo, so maybe a little bit showing his age and hollow-backed, (just a touch) ? .. I imagine when he was race-fit and young he was a lot stronger overall.


Thanks for the comments


Here's one more photo - you can see he's a real racehorse, and could probably still do a good job ! but that's maybe 'cos he's tidy (small ... )


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Yeah, I think what I'm seeing is age-related. 

He is really just lovely. One of my favorite colors, too. ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I like this horse but he is a bit long though the coupling and a bit butt high. That said, for racing and Steeplechase he looks a good one. I love his size.. but that is my own thing because it usually means sounder longer. 

I love his pedigree. How is is he disposition wise? A bit more Norther Dancer than is sometimes desirable.. but I think ND was smallish and very fast and passed it on. 

Out of curiosity was this horse better on turf or dirt or was he a hurdler?


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Elana said:


> I like this horse but he is a bit long though the coupling and a bit butt high. That said, for racing and Steeplechase he looks a good one. I love his size.. but that is my own thing because it usually means sounder longer.
> 
> I love his pedigree. How is is he disposition wise? A bit more Norther Dancer than is sometimes desirable.. but I think ND was smallish and very fast and passed it on.
> 
> Out of curiosity was this horse better on turf or dirt or was he a hurdler?


Looks like he was a top turf horse. Arlington Million, Grand Prix de Paris, Turf Classic, Manhattan Handicap . . . Nice nice nice!!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I asked so I did not have to look it up. Yup. I am a slacker. LOL

I wondered if he was a turf horse by his build.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Elana said:


> I asked so I did not have to look it up. Yup. I am a slacker. LOL
> 
> I wondered if he was a turf horse by his build.


In the UK and Eire there is no such thing as dirt racing, it is all on turf or a few tracks have an all weather surface.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Elana said:


> I like this horse but he is a bit long though the coupling and a bit butt high. That said, for racing and Steeplechase he looks a good one. I love his size.. but that is my own thing because it usually means sounder longer.


He is a nice looking horse, and really importantly his breeding is top-notch - like he did win good races, but there's lots of depth in his pedigree which if you get a filly you'd be very happy with. He's also a type that might give a good staying (2m) Flat horse (for which we have an excellent programme) and also a good hurdler (he's had a Grade 1 winner over hurdles).

Just, the one problem is for Steeplechasing, to sell well, you need them to be tall to make good money, and for all his good qualities in a sales environment there's no hiding place - when buyers are going through their shortlist and seeing top, scopy chasing types and they come across something just making 16' a line goes straight through it. That's really important !

The one aspect that makes him attractive to me is I might try him with a good tall mare for her first covering, just so she isn't carrying a huge foal first time, and maybe crossed with her own size and scope you could make a nice one.




> I love his pedigree. How is is he disposition wise? A bit more Norther Dancer than is sometimes desirable.. but I think ND was smallish and very fast and passed it on.


His horses are good mentally - saying the ND are small and fast I suppose if you're comparing them with N. American bred horses then I guess so - they usually come in about 16' and if you want to breed top class Steeplechasers it's sometimes best to go away from ND to get a bit more size and scope, but he's all quality and they make great racehorses.

Like, I don't if I might have posted this Sire before, but he's basically the Gold Standard for breeding a staying Chaser .. 16'2 and loads of scope, beautiful horse and his progeny can be incredible over the tall, stiff fences that are in the best races, (but you wouldn't get any speed from him, and you wouldn't get a Flat horse / dual-purpose). I think when you compare him to Beat Hollow you can really see the difference, they are both lovely horses but very different.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/robin+des+champs


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I like both horses - are you looking to breed a dual purpose LTG?
What sort of size of horse does Beat Hollow mostly have in his lineage on his sire and dam side and you mare have on both of her sides?
We had a little 15 hand TB mare that always produced really tall stock even when we put her to a 14.2 welsh cob stallion the result was 16.2


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Details of his results and his progeny

Beat Hollow | Details | Bloodstock Stallion Book | Racing Post


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I like both horses - are you looking to breed a dual purpose LTG?
> What sort of size of horse does Beat Hollow mostly have in his lineage on his sire and dam side and you mare have on both of her sides?
> We had a little 15 hand TB mare that always produced really tall stock even when we put her to a 14.2 welsh cob stallion the result was 16.2


Yes Jaydee, I'd love to breed a dual-purpose horse. The programme for races between 1m6f and 2m4f on the Flat is really attractive if you take in all the races in England also. Of course, if you don't quite make it to the level you want then you have probably a very good hurdler still. It's just very hard to get something that could be a chaser _and _have a chance as a Flat stayer.

The way the market for stallions here and in GB also makes it attractive because apart from the very very best there are brilliant sires that are very affordable given how good they are. All the commercial Flat sires are 1m and shorter, so something that's middle-distance (and even wins a Derby - like Beat Hollow was a beaten favourite at Epsom, but did win multiple Group 1s at around 1m4f) - those middle distance sires are very affordable for the quality you get.

We've bred really good chasers and really good hurdlers, and decent Flat horses - so it's the one thing that's kinda next to do, and Irish National Hunt trainers have had a lot of success with dual-purpose runners in the last few years so yeah, it's something I'm very keen on.

(basically, if a sire can't get a good % of winners at 2yo, and can't get winners at 1m, then their price drops like a stone, so there's a lot of value in breeding something from a staying / national hunt family by a really quality 1m4f-type stallion, imo).

e.g. http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/stallionbook/stallion.sd?horse_id=522845

Nayef at 5K is just unbelievable.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Nayef looks like another one you could consider then - I agree that breeding for both options multiplies your racing and selling opportunities
We had a son of Nijinski (retired from racing) that had won a bit on the flat, over jumps, did some point to points, hunting and then had some success as a 'fun' horse for show jumping, hunter trials and a great horse for just riding around the roads and trails. Essentially he always had a 'purpose'


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