# western bit question



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

A horse can almost always transition back down to a snaffle. Sometimes it's easier than others and this just depends mostly on how the horse has been ridden.


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## Cobalt (Jun 6, 2010)

Here's what the bit looked like. I can't understand why someone would choose this as their every day riding bit. It looks like it would be used on a horse with weak brakes. Like I said, he was very light and responsive, but I can't help but wonder what he's going to do when he feels the massive differeince between this and a basic snaffle. I'm wondering if there's a bit I should use inbetween this one and the snaffle just to do this the safest, most reasonable way. Any thoughts? I am so clueless when it comes to bits...I've always been a snaffle kinda girl. Appreciate the advice!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Do you have a round pen or an arena to ride him in the first few times? There will likely be a significant difference in how the horse responds to a regular snaffle as opposed to that.......thing. As bad as I hate to say it, most people don't put their horses in something like that when they know how to keep them soft. That being said, it can be done but it will likely take a bit of re-training for him. I would stick to a secure area until you know exactly how he is going to respond to your snaffle.


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## BarrelRacer86 (Jul 6, 2010)

That bit, as complicated as it seems to appear is actually not all that harsh. It's about 80% nose pressure and 20% mouth pressure. Since it has no shanks there's minimal curb pressure, depending on how tight the curb is. The gag in it allows barely any bit pressure. It's only a bump or so up from a normal snaffle. If you really want to take him to a normal snaffle, it all depends on the horse and how well he goes off of other aids. He might not like having full mouth pressure either.


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## Cobalt (Jun 6, 2010)

BarrelRacer, you seem to know something about this bit in particular. If I understand you, this bit is mostly acting as a hackamore, so I can expect the horse to react to a big increase in mouth pressure from a snaffle or other bit. He probably won't care much for a snaffle bit or a shank bit at first. Do you have any advice as to how to proceed to transition him? Or what you'd use? I'm in no hurry, and I'm not opposed to using this bit for trail riding if this is what he prefers. But for ring stuff, gonna have to use something different. 

As far as the horse goes, very responsive and sensitive to aids. I barely had to use any pressure to stop. But I wasn't sure if that was because this is a harsh bit or if he's just got a good "whoa." From what you're telling me this isn't all that harsh. 

Advice?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Where does the rein attach on that bit? How does that create any leverage for nose pressure? I am not certain how it works, tho I know that it isn't aas harsh as it might appear.
Look at Mikmar bits, they have similar stuff and might have something that's partway between the currant bit and your desired snaffle. Just a thought.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

The reins would attach to the circles below the mouthpiece. The small ones. 

My biggest problem is the twisted wire mouth on here. Also not a fan of rawhide nosebands. I agree that it isn't the worst I've ever seen and it is _possible_ that the former rider was using this bit correctly (IE not using it for an emergency break or letting it take the place of training)

But because this is rarely the case, I like smrobs idea of a roundpen or something similar.


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## BarrelRacer86 (Jul 6, 2010)

Cobalt said:


> BarrelRacer, you seem to know something about this bit in particular. If I understand you, this bit is mostly acting as a hackamore, so I can expect the horse to react to a big increase in mouth pressure from a snaffle or other bit. He probably won't care much for a snaffle bit or a shank bit at first. Do you have any advice as to how to proceed to transition him? Or what you'd use? I'm in no hurry, and I'm not opposed to using this bit for trail riding if this is what he prefers. But for ring stuff, gonna have to use something different.
> 
> As far as the horse goes, very responsive and sensitive to aids. I barely had to use any pressure to stop. But I wasn't sure if that was because this is a harsh bit or if he's just got a good "whoa." From what you're telling me this isn't all that harsh.
> 
> Advice?


I own that bit. What do you plan on doing with him to where he needs a different bit? It's similar to a hackamore but it doesn't have shanks. it's just a snaffle with a noseband and a curb chain. Mainly I'd stick with any type of gag bit, just because gags have that little extra time for the horse to react before becoming engaged. like a Jr. Cow Horse Bit, or if you need a curb bit for showing make sure it's reining bit, they have seperate sides and arn't acting as one. Just don't get a tom thumb. As for going to a snaffle, if he's that well with aids in this bit i'm sure he'll be fine with a plain snaffle. This bit is a bit most horses outgrown and can easily run through, it's not the strongest bit in the world. I showed an old gelding of mine in a snaffle in western plessure an did jumping with him, his regular bit was this, I had control of him just fine. Also you can get this bit with any mouth piece including smooth, and any gag bit like this needs bit gaurds as to not pinch the horses mouth.
Ring Combination Rope Nose Hackamore - The Tack Stop


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## Cobalt (Jun 6, 2010)

BarrelRacer86 said:


> I own that bit. What do you plan on doing with him to where he needs a different bit?


Hope to ride some dressage tests in the future. He's going to be making some huge transitions from western/rodeo to English/dressage so I know I need to go slow. I'm not familiar with gag bits at all. I ride in eggbutt or D ring snaffles pretty much exclusively. I had someone recommend a Clinton Anderson shanked snaffle (basically a Tom Thumb), but from the sounds of it, that's probably not the best idea. I've not used that type of bit either...and I feel like I need to stick to my comfort zone.

Thanks so much for your help. I guess my biggest fear is that this bit was a harsh bit and that I'd find out that I had zero control in a snaffle.


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## Cobalt (Jun 6, 2010)

BarrelRacer86 said:


> Also you can get this bit with any mouth piece including smooth, and any gag bit like this needs bit gaurds as to not pinch the horses mouth.
> Ring Combination Rope Nose Hackamore - The Tack Stop


By bit guards what do you mean? Same thing I'd think of in the English world?

So can you explain to me the way a gag bit works? My education in this is seriously lacking!


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## BarrelRacer86 (Jul 6, 2010)

Have you thought of a Baucher bit? It's like a snaffle, but it has poll pressure. No shanks, no curb chain, just poll pressure. And it's a dressage bit. I think that would work well.


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## BarrelRacer86 (Jul 6, 2010)

Cobalt said:


> By bit guards what do you mean? Same thing I'd think of in the English world?
> 
> So can you explain to me the way a gag bit works? My education in this is seriously lacking!


If you ever look at a gag bit, look at the mouth piece. It slides, so unlike say a tom thum the mouth piece isn't locked in right away, it slides up then locks in. Becomes engaged. So most horses will move as soon as the mouth piece begins to slide up, so theres never usually full mouth pressure. Unless the horse is really lacking in training and has the bit just thrown on for more control, though you'd know if this was the case because the horse would most likely have their head in the air fighting the bit. Being on the bit can be hard for a horse thats used to minimal bit pressure and is used to neck reining.

And bit gaurds, like the english ones but usually you need ones that open with either velcro or snap together, they normally have a smaller circle than the old anes anyway. Better in my opinion. you can find them on statelinetack.com


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## ridesapaintedpony (Apr 14, 2009)

Cobalt said:


> Here's what the bit looked like. I can't understand why someone would choose this as their every day riding bit. It looks like it would be used on a horse with weak brakes. Like I said, he was very light and responsive, but I can't help but wonder what he's going to do when he feels the massive differeince between this and a basic snaffle. I'm wondering if there's a bit I should use inbetween this one and the snaffle just to do this the safest, most reasonable way. Any thoughts? I am so clueless when it comes to bits...I've always been a snaffle kinda girl. Appreciate the advice!



I see the majority of local barrel horses in that bit.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

My dad used to always say "Don't go borrowing trouble with your horses. You'll get plenty without asking for more." Ride your horse in a snaffle and see how she does.


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## banman (Dec 14, 2009)

you might not find mch of a difference all my horses can go from bit to bit with no change really thay are so light mouthed, and the bit you are talking about is a harsh bit but you can control how harsh oyu want it to be but i probably change bits too


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## SissyGoBob (Oct 17, 2010)

Wrap the noseband in vet wrap and the bit isnt harsh. The twisted peices on the bit look bad, but when to consider how much that dit DOESNT rely on mouth pressure its not bad at all. I love those combinations. They do great jobs of keeping horses mouth's lite and supple


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

I HATE combo bits...too much going on IMO.

Start him out in a snaffle and see how he does


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

If I encounter a horse that works well in one, well, then Ill use it, but for the most part I try to avoid combos.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

honestly a tom thumb is alot less harsh than that bit, the twisted wire is ridged and will rub the tongue and mouth rough, along with the rawhide noseband (which is also rough...) with a tom thumb and a curb chain all you have to have is really light hands and it is alot less harsh than this one. but thats just my opinion and everyone had different opinions. i myself prefer curbs. but i also know how to use them. i say use your snaffle. and throw that thing in the garbage.


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

lilkitty90 said:


> honestly a tom thumb is alot less harsh than that bit, the twisted wire is ridged and will rub the tongue and mouth rough, along with the rawhide noseband (which is also rough...) with a tom thumb and a curb chain all you have to have is really light hands and it is alot less harsh than this one. but thats just my opinion and everyone had different opinions. i myself prefer curbs. but i also know how to use them. i say use your snaffle. and throw that thing in the garbage.


 Are you really suggesting a Tom Thumb?:shock::-x

That is THE most unbalanced piece of trash bit out there. While Im not a fan of combos, I would gladly use one before a nutcracker TT.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

ANY bit used correctly is a good bit. even the one posted. but my opinion is i'd use the tom thumb BEFORE the combo bit. not that i'd suggest it over all bits. i just said it was less harsh than the original. my i say go for a Snaffle. or even better a French Link! especially since the OP is switching to english anyway.


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

lilkitty90 said:


> ANY bit used correctly is a good bit. even the one posted. but my opinion is i'd use the tom thumb BEFORE the combo bit. not that i'd suggest it over all bits. i just said it was less harsh than the original. my i say go for a Snaffle. or even better a French Link! especially since the OP is switching to english anyway.


 We're not discussing humanity, we're discussing bits, and no...not all bits are created equal.:wink:

The TT is extremely unbalanced, and when pressure is applied, creates a nutcracker like action in the mouth. Its really a law of physics FAIL.

It doesnt matter HOW soft your hands are, its poorly engineered. Its more usefull as a barn decoration.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Streakin said:


> We're not discussing humanity, we're discussing bits, and no...not all bits are created equal.:wink:
> 
> The TT is extremely unbalanced, and when pressure is applied, creates a nutcracker like action in the mouth. Its really a law of physics FAIL.
> 
> It doesnt matter HOW soft your hands are, its poorly engineered. Its more usefull as a barn decoration.


There are probably more horses ridden in the tom thumb than any other western bit. I don't prefer them myself but they are not cruel or useless. Many nice, well broke horses are ridden in Tom Thumbs of one kind or the other. Educate yourself.


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> There are probably more horses ridden in the tom thumb than any other western bit. I don't prefer them myself but they are not cruel or useless. Many nice, well broke horses are ridden in Tom Thumbs of one kind or the other. Educate yourself.


 Since Im not educated enough for you, research the topic yourself.

Youll find various facts and opinions to back my statement.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

various facts and *opinions* back up either side. thats the way everything is. it's personal opinion.


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

FACT: Tom Thumbs deliver a nut cracker like action when pressure is engaged, causing bruising to the palet.

Lets look at the mechanics of a true Tob Thumb.










????


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## OneFastHorse (Jan 13, 2011)

I had a good laugh from reading this thread lol


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

There's a lot of misinformation in this thread.

Bouchers do NOT supply poll pressure. All they do is stabilize the bit.

Tom Thumbs ARE terrible bits, no matter what sort of rider you are. At worst, they're inhumane; at best, they're ineffective and confusing. That's not a matter of opinion--it's the simple mechanics of the bit.

OP, I'd try a snaffle and see what happens. If it doesn't work at first, I'd go for an elevator bit of sorts, and ride it on the shortest ring to start. That'll be closer to what the horse is used to. Try it with and withouth a curb chain. Or look at low-port Myler Pelhams. Those are amazing bits for any horse.

Here's a reference guide to "bitology": An Overview of Bits and Bitting - Horse Forums (HGS)


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> There's a lot of misinformation in this thread.
> 
> Bouchers do NOT supply poll pressure. All they do is stabilize the bit.
> 
> ...


Exactly, thankyou.

I wanted to post that link, but wasnt sure if it was allowed.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

You realize that the entire purpose of a bit is to create an unpleasant sensation in a horses mouth encouraging them to yield to pressure. EVERY bit has the potential to damage the horses mouth. I have personally seen in person real live horses not on the internet that have been ridden for many years in a TT without it destroying thier mouths and ruining thier very lives. If you don't like it then don't use it ( I don't) but it is not inhumane or cruel. Every broken mouthed curb has the same action as the TT.


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## Streakin (Jan 8, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> You realize that the entire purpose of a bit is to create an unpleasant sensation in a horses mouth encouraging them to yield to pressure. EVERY bit has the potential to damage the horses mouth.* I have personally seen in person real live horses not on the internet that have been ridden for many years in a TT without it destroying thier mouths and ruining thier very lives.* If you don't like it then don't use it ( I don't) but it is not inhumane or cruel. Every broken mouthed curb has the same action as the TT.


Your right, all my experience is from the internet.

There are better choices, not to acknowledge so is ludicrous.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> You realize that the entire purpose of a bit is to create an unpleasant sensation in a horses mouth encouraging them to yield to pressure.


True to an extent, but only to an extent. Yes, horses have to be taught pressure and release, and the initial introduction to and training in a bit will be different and unpleasant. But in the well-schooled horse, there is no longer a need to pull hard and squash the tongue and so on. A slight flick of the reins and jingle of the shank should accomplish all that is needed. 



> EVERY bit has the potential to damage the horses mouth.


True.



> I have personally seen in person real live horses not on the internet that have been ridden for many years in a TT without it destroying thier mouths and ruining thier very lives.


I don't doubt it. A TT is highly unlikely to break a horse's jaw, as some people claim. But the point is not so much that it is cruel as much as it is ineffective. Nothing about the bit mechanics are balanced right. The cues are inconsistent and very confusing to the horse. A well-trained, patient, saint of a horse will probably ride just fine in a TT, despite the crap going on in his mouth and the discomfort from the twisting mouthpiece. A horse who is initially broke to ride in a TT, however, will likely toss his head or gape his mouth. 



> If you don't like it then don't use it ( I don't) but it is not inhumane or cruel.


See above, and I won't use one.



> Every broken mouthed curb has the same action as the TT.


That is not true. See the link I supplied earlier. There is a segment comparing Tom Thumbs to Argentine snaffles--they absolutely do not work in the same way or have the same effect.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

the bit i use is a cousin of the tom thumb. and my horses mouth isn't bruised nor is she hurt. and we rode one of our saddle breds in a tom thumb and he did excellent in it and (= O) no bruises. if your hands are light (very little contact except for when needed) then it causes no harm. unless you are jerking and pulling. 
here is the bit that i use.


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## OneFastHorse (Jan 13, 2011)

^ That bit is nothing like a TT.

It has a very slight gag action, the shanks are not straight and it has a 3 piece mouth piece. That's actually a nice little bit.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Yeah, that bit is an Argentine snaffle with a dogbone mouthpiece. Doesn't matter what the manufacturer called it. Yours is a good bit--well fitted and balanced, with clear cues for the horse.


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