# What IS the appeal of this?



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am truly baffled as to how this sort of movement can be considered desireable. I simply do not get the whole tiny trot, dead canter, downhill like a whipped dog look. I am sure I am being prejudiced, but HOW is this appealing? really, convince me that this is a paragon of horse movement.
she won prizes, so someone thinks it's good. I just keep scratching my head and wondering how the super downhill horse, with tiny feet, who moves like a crippled zombie is something we breed for and give prizes to.

https://youtu.be/JGByVw5vDzQ


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Another example of form over function...

I think the answer is because at some point that started winning. If it's what everyone does it's what everyone does.

Aren't people awesome?


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## corgi (Nov 3, 2009)

When my mare moves like that, I know her arthritis has flared up. :icon_rolleyes:


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Don't forget the 'hair weave'. Just ugh.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Remember when this was the way to dress if you wanted to be in with the right crowd?










Same thing I think.


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

Not my thing either. But then I find Western Pleasure really bizarre as well...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Luv equins (Oct 10, 2014)

I know. Right... I really do not understand this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxVlxT_x-f0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, first of all that horse is a yearling-so a downhill build is not judged at that age.
A stock horse is not expected to have a level topline until the horse is two
It is yearling lunge line, meant to show a horse with aptitude for western pl
Sure, you won't have the same frame and drive, as when you are actually riding that horse, able to use legs, but that horse shows a heck of alot of relaxation, cadence , rhythm and ability that can be worked with, in the future, when ridden
It takes a heck of a lot more self carriage and good attitude, for a young horse to move slow, just lunged off a halter, then to be tearing around, leaning on that lunge line, doing laps!
I never watched the entire clip, as I have a limit on my download data, but watched all three gaits in one direction.
No doubt, most here are more used to seeing horse tearing around, running into the lope out of forward momentum, and if that is what you like-go for it?
In fact lets see some of your horses lunging!


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

I don't get it either, never have. I did notice that it seemed to take half a circle for the horse to pick up the lope. Seems sloppy to have that slow a response to a cue.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

This is definitely not a style that we care for. We have tried to make good saddle horses out of some of the 'flunk-outs' and there is not much they can do. They are an example of breeding for a specialty and carrying it to an extreme. It is not much different than the tiny 800 # cutters that wear 000 shoes and have cannon bones the size of my thumb. They are quick footed and super cowey but have no practical use at all that we have found. They cannot carry a grown man for a day's work on a ranch -- yet they started out being bred for a big facet of cow/ranch work. It is a real shame to me that a slow lope became this kind of lope. For the people that like it, more power to them. It is just not for me or any of the people we are around. 

I do not appreciate horses tearing around and I only like very controlled longeing -- but I like more natural and useful gaits. The slow lope circles of a reining horse are much more to my liking. A jog that can actually get a horse across rough ground is my goal. That is a LONG way from uncontrolled tearing around and the horse can be just as relaxed and happy without looking like it is going to fall on its nose. Sorry. Not my thing.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Thank you for reminding me, once again, why I have always been "just a trail rider"

Now I have to watch the news so the last thing in my head isn't ^^^^THAT:beatup::beatup:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Regula said:


> Not my thing either. But then I find Western Pleasure really bizarre as well...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you don't like western pl, then don't watch it.
I don't really like the 'jerk and spur classes, know as gymkana, nor the dressage horse, held on tight contact, foaming at the mouth, and certainly not BIg lick classes, with the pasterns sored, nor do I get the built up shoes used for Saddlebreds. 
I find in funny that people with not idea of a discipline, feel they are qualified to 'bleacher judge"


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

I think we all agree that extremes of just about anything are bad for horses. Fine boned cutting horses, halter horses with no feet, rolkur, soring, etc are all bad for a horse's long term usefulness.

What IS the idea of WP? I know dressage and reining are to showcase balance, responsiveness, and precision, barrels are about speed and turns, cutting, etc. I would think WP is about showcasing a horse that is a pleasure to ride? Is that defined as smoothness/minimal jarring for the rider? In that case, the minimal movement in the horse starts to make sense to me...

My AQHA horse's trot is NOT a pleasure to try to sit (perfect for posting). In comparison, those guys look pleasurable, for a minute anyway. Wouldn't get very far at an endurance ride at that pace.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Honestly, I could not ride that slowly long enough to train a WP horse.....I suppose now you can at least surf the web while you ride.....


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

walkinthewalk said:


> Thank you for reminding me, once again, why I have always been "just a trail rider"
> 
> Now I have to watch the news so the last thing in my head isn't ^^^^THAT:beatup::beatup:


 Well, the funny thing is, I can both trail ride and show my horses.
Trail riding is not without things that can't be critiqued either,as I have seen some pretty severe bits used, by people with no idea as to how to ride correctly with abit, tie downs on, ect
In the end, a truly good horsemen can recognize a good horse in any discipline, and at least takes some judging clinics, before they feel qualified to judge events they have never never show in, or they have a horse they can't rate on a loose rein, is a lousy mover, gets beat by a good western horse, and instantly that horse, even if moving correctly, is a called a peanut roller, a 4beater, ect
Not saying there aren't some bad things in western pleasure, as in any discipline, but the good horses, trained correctly, are exceptional athletes with great ability.
I am not saying this as someone who has only been involved in western pl, as I have shown in reining, working cowhorse, western riding, trail, HUS, as well as having ridden trails few people here have ever ventured on,gone on pack trips into remote wilderness, with our horses also packing out elk
Seldom admit it, but I did 'chase cans', did pole pending and flag picking, but using a snaffle, as my horses were broke


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Sharpie said:


> I think we all agree that extremes of just about anything are bad for horses. Fine boned cutting horses, halter horses with no feet, rolkur, soring, etc are all bad for a horse's long term usefulness.
> 
> What IS the idea of WP? I know dressage and reining are to showcase balance, responsiveness, and precision, barrels are about speed and turns, cutting, etc. I would think WP is about showcasing a horse that is a pleasure to ride? Is that defined as smoothness/minimal jarring for the rider? In that case, the minimal movement in the horse starts to make sense to me...
> 
> My AQHA horse's trot is NOT a pleasure to try to sit (perfect for posting). In comparison, those guys look pleasurable, for a minute anyway. Wouldn't get very far at an endurance ride at that pace.


I would just die of boredom. I'm sorry I don't care if it really was a "real" WP horse and a joy to ride. I just could not move that slowly.. If I can walk faster than your horses normal canter I don't want to ride it!

I am not one to diss something just because I don't understand it. At least I try. That said, no it's not my thing. But the problem is the extremes (seen in ALL disciplines).

I'm not quick to judge "trail riders" though I completely agree with Smilie's sentiment. I just think more people who have absolutely no idea what they are doing trail ride and it's not a discipline whereas the issues seen with the disiplines (WP, dressage, jumping, etc, etc, etc) can be seen even in the upper levels by people that do deserve SOME credit and are not completely clueless even if you disagree with their methods of training. Judge the riders, not the discipline.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sharpie said:


> I think we all agree that extremes of just about anything are bad for horses. Fine boned cutting horses, halter horses with no feet, rolkur, soring, etc are all bad for a horse's long term usefulness.
> 
> What IS the idea of WP? I know dressage and reining are to showcase balance, responsiveness, and precision, barrels are about speed and turns, cutting, etc. I would think WP is about showcasing a horse that is a pleasure to ride? Is that defined as smoothness/minimal jarring for the rider? In that case, the minimal movement in the horse starts to make sense to me...
> 
> My AQHA horse's trot is NOT a pleasure to try to sit (perfect for posting). In comparison, those guys look pleasurable, for a minute anyway. Wouldn't get very far at an endurance ride at that pace.


Okay, once more, since you asked a reasonable question, I will try to answer it in the same light
The showring is an exhibition of ability, and does not have to directly apply to what you do outside of it. My horses can compete in western pleasure,and also go out and chase cows, and have no difficulty keeping up with any horses on the trial, and I have ridden with gaited horses

As in any other discipline, western pleasure got tougher, more specific. If you don't believe this, watch an old reining stop, with that horse jamming front feet into the ground, on a tight rein, head in the air , mouth open, or hopping around in the spin
Any well trained horse can go along and perform three gaits, on a slightly loose rein, and get all transitions, moving on.
Western pl, at the breed and NSBA level has upped the difficulity, by rewarding a horse that can keep topline, collection, rate speed all off of seat and legs , while moving slow legged BUT CORRECT. Any horse can perform a three beat lope while moving on.
A four beat lope is man made, when a horse is slowed beyond his ability and training, to keep that second beat from breaking down into two
Barrel racing has no practical application, and many of those horses are run using very severe bits, with contact, with two hands on the reins, and a tiedown. Hey, but that's great right, as they are moving at speed!
I love reining, and have several horses That I put superiors on in reining, but what purpose does a reining pattern have?
4 spins and the cow is long gone. Ditto for that sliding stop/. it, like western pl, shows ability and training
What purpose does th BIg lick have, never mind the techniques used to get that exaggerated front leg action
What purpose does fox hunting have? 
The showring is a place where level of ability is shown, outside of practical working application
Ever wonder what purpose golf, football or hockey have?
If you want practicality/work application, go to Cuba, and other places where horses are still used as major horsepower, for transportation, working the fields


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> I would just die of boredom. I'm sorry I don't care if it really was a "real" WP horse and a joy to ride. I just could not move that slowly.. If I can walk faster than your horses normal canter I don't want to ride it!


 Then don't.
Do you not get the fact that when i ride my horse out, that I show in western pl, they can ride out as well as any horse, and better then most, as they are well trained!
I can also ride the same horse in HUS and have shown Smilie open English, against traditional English breeds (TBs Arabians ) , under a judge with a dressage background, and won the class. I also show the same horse in judged trail
In fact, come ride with my pleasure horse in the mountains, and you might be very surprised, of left at the bottom of a steep climb or on the bank of a fast flowing river.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Yes you may have a "real" horse that is well trained and functional and athletic. And that would not be their "normal" gaits but what was trained for that purpose. I don't have a problem with that..

I would not want to ride one in the show ring but I would be more than flattered to take one of yours out on a hack!

But yes, I will pass in the show ring lol. Maybe once just to say I did it?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You don't ride a western pl horse out, in show ring mode. They do know the difference in expectations and can move out, well as any horse
The difference being, they have the training and ability to move like a western pl horse , when asked to, although it is always easier to speed a horse up, then to slow him down, esp if that horse is asked to rate speed on a loose rein-try it!
I do know where some of you guys are coming from, as when I was training and showing reining horses, doing cattle events, I thought western pl to be an easy class anyone can do. Not until I got serious about western pl, trying to show at the breed level, did I relaize how very difficult it is. Your horse has to remain calm, not speed up, on a loose rein, as horses come up and pass.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Smilie I like the videos you have been posting as lunging examples much better than the video in question


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Smilie,

you don't have to take personal umbrage to this. no one is attacking "your" horses.
I am just being bold enough to say, via only one video (there are tons of them) that I am utterly baffled as to why and how this ever became admirable or prize worthy.

to me, it looks like a horse from whom all life has been stripped, so that he moves without any of the joi d'vivre that a young equine should have. self carriage? I do not see any, except that as long as he stays without any bend in his body, with his head down and with mincing steps, without any flexion in his hocks, he will be in balance. only in those conditions, in none others.

why? why take away the power, the elegance, the spirit of the horse, and make him move like a whipped dog? I don't see the attraction or pleasure? 

is it pleasurable?


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

I know nothing. The rear legs look very stiff on that horse. She has very unusual coloration.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Not that I'm a huge fan of the way western pleasure horses move these days but I think folks are being a little harsh on this particular video. Like Smiley said, "It's a yearling" and all immature horses are butt high off and on during their growing process no matter what breed or discipline they are. As far as it's movement goes I've seen a whole lot worse and for some horses the slow speed is perfectly natural no harsh training methods required. I just didn't see an unnatural gait in this video but did see controlled lunging.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Remember when this was the way to dress if you wanted to be in with the right crowd?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you telling me I am not wearing the right outfits anymore?


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## Werecat (Aug 23, 2015)

that was very boring... ugh, people.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

This video is, perhaps , not the best example, and I'm not trying to rip just this particular video to pieces, but rather to comprehend the attraction to this whole style of riding and breeding. What I see is so dull and so anathema to what I feel is beautiful and desireable. And yet, an entire industry, an entire horse culture is built around this, so it must be appealing to some, somehow. 

But, I cannot comprehend how. Asking for real explanation as to why this is seen as beautiful.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Smilie said:


> If you don't like western pl, then don't watch it.
> I don't really like the 'jerk and spur classes, know as gymkana, nor the dressage horse, held on tight contact, foaming at the mouth, and certainly not BIg lick classes, with the pasterns sored, nor do I get the built up shoes used for Saddlebreds.
> I find in funny that people with not idea of a discipline, feel they are qualified to 'bleacher judge"


Whoa! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! 

Anyone is entitled to an opinion whether they know anything about it or not - as with the Hempfling thread.

With dressage the movements are natural, you will see horses performing them naturally in a field. With WP amd this sort of showing you will not see a horse moving as these are trained to do. Very unnatural and false. 

I will lay odds on that you, Smilie, do not go out trail riding and expect your horses to move so I actively and slowly as these do. 

What is the point of it?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

What is wrong in my view with the extremes of horse sport is that they are injurious to the horse. Training a horse to move as if he is lame and on the forehand is wrong, because over time it can lead to the horse being lame. It also suppresses a horse's spirit because he is forced to subdue himself to an unnatural state. Horses do not travel at that pace when they are not grazing unless they are sick or lame. It is the same with horses that are forced to display unnatural expressiveness for long periods of time as in park classes. What we do to animals is wrong, and humans are very selfish and superficial to purposefully breed cats, dogs and horses with dwarfism, flat faces that mean our pets can't exercise and breathe, and fragile legs with tiny feet as underpinnings for a 1,000 lb animal.


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## WestCoasted (Jan 19, 2016)

*To each his own*



Foxhunter said:


> With dressage the movements are natural, you will see horses performing them naturally in a field.
> 
> I've never seen a horse piaffe in a field. I've also never seen a horse change leads every other step. I have a high respect for dressage, but lets not pretend it doesn't have unnatural movements.
> 
> ...


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## MrsKD14 (Dec 11, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> What is wrong in my view with the extremes of horse sport is that they are injurious to the horse. Training a horse to move as if he is lame and on the forehand is wrong, because over time it can lead to the horse being lame. It also suppresses a horse's spirit because he is forced to subdue himself to an unnatural state. Horses do not travel at that pace when they are not grazing unless they are sick or lame. It is the same with horses that are forced to display unnatural expressiveness for long periods of time as in park classes. What we do to animals is wrong, and humans are very selfish and superficial to purposefully breed cats, dogs and horses with dwarfism, flat faces that mean our pets can't exercise and breathe, and fragile legs with tiny feet as underpinnings for a 1,000 lb animal.



I'm with Gottatrot on this one (but then again I find myself doing that on a lot of posts [emoji12]) we do a disservice to the animal. I want my guy to move as naturally as he does in the pasture. He is a big guy with a massive personality to boot. I think I would dissolve in tears if I ever saw him moving along in any other way. 

I get breeding for specifics. I really do. I work in an animal clinic and see some stunning specimens on a daily basis. But then I also see the ones who win at shows but can't pass their puppies bc they are bred so small. Or my chow who is a reject bc of her hips. 

And before someone flames me, I don't have the answers and I know that I don't know you or your horse's. They may be happy in their jobs. I just know my guy wouldn't be and I tend to look at other horse's as if they were him. And that is why I rarely go to shows anymore. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MrsKD14 (Dec 11, 2015)

WestCoasted, we must have been commenting at the same time. Lol 

I will be the first to admit I know nothing about western pleasure. I could see how they look relaxed and obedient. And they may be, I don't know much about the discipline. I just know that even my husband has only been around horse's since we met, has asked what's wrong with them. It may not be, but to the untrained eye, it looks rather painful as if it is limping. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

Earlier in this thread I said I know nothing, which is pretty much true. However, the lesson horse I ride was trained in Western Pleasure and he's pretty darned good as a lesson horse. Quiet, calm, forgiving, plods along but listens to your aids. He's not super responsive, but I think that's probably a good thing for a lesson horse. So, WP training created at least one good lesson horse who's doing that job in his golden years. I guess it was good for something.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

If my horse lunged like that I would be one unhappy person. As Tinyliny says, I just don't see the point in taking away a young horse's natural joie de vivre and replacing it with that sad tired shuffling. Yes, maybe it takes a lot of expertise and discipline to get it to move like that, but why bother? That sort of movement can't be beneficial to the horse and doesn't seem remotely functional either - unless we're after some sort of animated stool to enable us to get from A to B VERY slowly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

One doesn't have to know much about WP to be able to read a rulebook and see if people are complying with the rules to win. Simply said, AQHA saw that there was a real problem with WP many years ago and put rules in place to correct these problems. Sadly, people are ignoring these rules and the judges continue to pin these horses, because the trainers demand that they do.

These are 2014 champion WP horses. The AQHA rules demand that the tip of the ear is never continually lower than the withers, or face elimination.....but they CONTINUE to pin these illegal horses. Until the judges start disqualifying these horses, WP will continue to face criticism



















Reasons to dismiss WP horses;

(1) Head carried too low (tip of ear below the withers consistently)

(14) If a horse appears sullen, dull, lethargic, emaciated, drawn or overly tired

(16) If reins are draped to the point that light contact is not maintained.

Western pleasure has, for a long time, been it's own worst enemy.

Competitive dressage is going through the same pains, and I hope they also decide to follow their newer rules.


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

WestCoasted said:


> I've never seen a horse piaffe in a field. I've also never seen a horse change leads every other step. I have a high respect for dressage, but lets not pretend it doesn't have unnatural movements.


Actually, I have seen our mare do two-tempis (changing her canter lead every other stride) across the diagonal while turned out loose in the arena. She did about four of them. It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen. I have also seen a few steps of piaffe or passage type movement in a few horses while interacting with others in the field -- stallions especially seem to do a little bit of it when flirting with mares.

Dressage certainly refines and extends these movements more so than they might appear under normal circumstances.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

WestCoasted said:


> Foxhunter said:
> 
> 
> > With dressage the movements are natural, you will see horses performing them naturally in a field.
> ...


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I have not read pgs. 3&4, but I finally got to watch the video, and I think that horse is lovely. If she did not go any slower than that, I would ride her! Her trot was two beat her lope 3 beat....


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Allison Finch said:


> One doesn't have to know much about WP to be able to read a rulebook and see if people are complying with the rules to win. Simply said, AQHA saw that there was a real problem with WP many years ago and put rules in place to correct these problems. Sadly, people are ignoring these rules and the judges continue to pin these horses, because the trainers demand that they do.
> 
> These are 2014 champion WP horses. The AQHA rules demand that the tip of the ear is never continually lower than the withers, or face elimination.....but they CONTINUE to pin these illegal horses. Until the judges start disqualifying these horses, WP will continue to face criticism
> 
> ...


These two get an "F" in saddle fit!! Are the horses so downhill that the saddles have to be jacked up in the front ???


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

those photos were taken at the last beat of the lope, where the head is at the lowest, and , when a horse must use it's head flinging up and down to GET the lope, it's going to be pretty far down at that last beat of the canter sequence.

it doesn't look like it's the last beat of the lope sequence because there are three legs weight bearing at one time, instead of the normal one leg, which is the leading leg , that strikes last and bears all weight for the last beat of the canter, for a mear split second.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

I hesitate to get into this discussion, because I try to keep things lite here on HF. However, and I have tried to make this point on other places on the internet, there would be no backyard horses if not for the horse show industry. Sure, some of it is laughable, but most show horses do just fine. The real bad people do get caught. Who do you think supports vets, feed stores, tack stores, etc. if not the show industry. We who keep backyard pets are the beneficiaries of this.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

i am not trying to dis the show industry. just wondering how this sort of movement came to be considered beautiful. I mean, in the first video, you hear people hooting, out of appreciation, I guess. for what?


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Yea, but look how many people are in the stands. Seems like a lot of horse shows are watched only by those who participate.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

One of my horses Piaffes at the gate when she wants to come in faster than I can get down there to satisfy her

There is nothing natural about a horse that's staggering along with its head on the ground in some corrupted form of canter/lope and nothing practical either, anything that 'downhill' would fall over on rough terrain and that was what the breed was supposed to be about
I found plenty of pictures of yearlings that weren't downhill like that one, that is selective breeding at its worst. 
They should be breeding and training to produce a horse that has the conformation to do anything - not just limp around a show ring with its nose by its knees


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> i am not trying to dis the show industry. just wondering how this sort of movement came to be considered beautiful. I mean, in the first video, you hear people hooting, out of appreciation, I guess. for what?


And I wonder how anorexic fashion models are considered beautiful. 

:icon_rolleyes:

To each his own.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

whisperbaby22 said:


> I hesitate to get into this discussion, because I try to keep things lite here on HF. However, and I have tried to make this point on other places on the internet, there would be no backyard horses if not for the horse show industry. Sure, some of it is laughable, but most show horses do just fine. The real bad people do get caught. Who do you think supports vets, feed stores, tack stores, etc. if not the show industry. We who keep backyard pets are the beneficiaries of this.


I doubt this reasoning would stand up to scrutiny. Showing is a small subset of horse ownership activity, and the majority even within that are amateurs intermittently showing their own horse/s, not all that different than the non-showers. There are somewhere around 5 million horses in the US. I would bet 95% are not show horses. They are stock horses, feral horses, race horses, amish working horses, or (by far the largest category) purely pleasure horses. 

It is true that showing influences many trends in horse breeds, care and ownership. Much like the tiny show dog world's outsized influence on the vast pet dog world (almost always to the detriment of the latter by the way). 

I am quite sure that I support the vets, and feed and tack stores as much as any other horse owner! At least my bank account thinks so.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I know several people that work in the AQHA office in Amarillo. I have had several discussions with them about the show industry and why shows had gotten smaller and smaller while the Ranch Horse, Stock Horse, Foundation Registries and other QH and All Breed Association shows have gotten HUGE. 

More than one of them admitted that it has been very difficult to change the judging standards in the WP, HUS, Trail and WR, Equitation etc classes. The general thinking in Amarillo (I was told) was that to travel THAT slow and that extreme takes a very professional trainer that knows how to make them that extreme and still have a 2 beat jog and a 3-beat lope. Almost all of the judges are trainers and almost all of the professional trainers are judges. This is perpetuated to keep their barns full and keep them in business. The World caliber WP horses cannot be maintained at home. It is truly rare to see the Amateur / non-pro / Youth that maintains their own WP horse in the AQHA as well as the APHA and shows at a World Show level. [I will not speak to the Appaloosa industry as I have never been to their World shows, but I have seen few (or none) of them in the open shows like the NRHA or NCHA shows. Again, I have not been to any open Snaffle Bit WP Futirities in several years but they were absent. When I last attended the huge Richert Celebration, I saw none of them ridden at a high level.

For about 10 or 15 years, the people in Amarillo were frantically trying to figure a way to get showing back to the horse owners and get entries numbers back up. They tried the Ranch Versatility first and the big ranches just hired full-time trainers and dominated it. The shows were so expensive and far-flung that the Amateur division was dominated by wealthy owners that had horses hauled to the shows by a BNT and ridden by them between classes. It failed at getting ordinary owners back into showing -- but the open and Foundation Shows just kept getting bigger and bigger. I was the President of the Oklahoma affiliate of the Foundation Q H Registry in 2004 and 2005 -- that last two years I tried to ride and show. We were getting 600 entries at a show while the AQHA Shows around here with twice as many classes were getting half that many entries. 

As the President of the Association, I had several calls from AQHA. I kept telling them that people wanted to be able to show 'All Around' horses and get back to a style of riding that was compatible with recreational riding. I was not the only one that told them that. Several judges (some that I knew personally) quit judging or started judging with 'restricted' cards, judging only Reining or Cutting or Over Fence classes, etc. They refused to judge horses that moved like the pleasure horses were being judged the way the judge/trainers wanted. They could not judge what they personally liked or what the rule book said. They could not give a horse with 3 World Championships 'the gate' so they quit judging them.

So, thankfully, these 'old' judges and people like myself preached long enough and hard enough for AQHA to set up the Ranch Classes. At many shows, these are now the biggest classes at a show. The Open Ranch Riding class at the 2015 World Championship show had 120 entries in it and the Amateur division had 88. By contrast, the AM WP class had 32 entries and the Open had 30.

There is a huge demand for the well trained, soft and compliant horse that travels natural but can still run, stop change a lead and ride smoothly at all gaits on a loose rein -- not a rein draped to a horse's knees. Like the Foundation Shows, Silver is not permitted and any clean, neat working saddle and dress is wanted. I wish I could still ride and show. I would be at every show near here that had the Ranch Riding classes.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

I used to handle a stallion who did a wonderful, natural piaffe in anticipation of the mare I lead him to. Numerous times, I've seen horses of all ages and backgrounds do flying lead changes across the field, and my own drafty gelding once did a capriole while I was watching him play first time in the summer pastures and fresh grass that year. He's never been taught that as a special element of training, just did it out of free will, energy and spunk - naturally. 

On the other hand, unless the horse is lame/sick/injured/ancient/extremely tired, I haven't observed healthy individuals stumble across the field as in the video in the first post or others alike. 

That, to me, sets things how they should be.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

Hasn't this topic been covered ad nauseam?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

^^^^
Then, you need to click on a different subject that you enjoy reading.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

I know plenty of people who do WP. They used to disagree with the poll being below the withers. Then they decided they liked winning enough to make their horse four beat and drag its head. I have never seen horses walk so slow in my life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

Cherie said:


> ^^^^
> Then, you need to click on a different subject that you enjoy reading.


What a great response for the OP. Watch videos of horses you enjoy.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

The OP had a legitimate question. It has been discussed with several different opinions.

Yours is simply a complaint about the discussion. Completely different, I think. 

I know I do not complain about or even read threads that are on subjects I know that I do not want to discuss or cannot add something thoughtful to.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Sometimes the only way to make a difference and bring about change is for people to talk about things that they feel isn't right
Otherwise you're stuck with the 'shut up and put up' situation


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Exactly. If people hadn't started talking about it and questioning the practice, Rollkur would still be more commonly accepted!


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

To those saying horses never perform none of these movements naturally - YOUR horse might not, but many do. My guy is the opposite of the typical WP horse. He's an OTTB with professional hunter training, that I had purchased to event on. He might not have the cringy 3-beating or the ridiculous slowness, but he certainly has natural "low and slow," which is why we made the switch. Heck, I've seen videos of him jogging immediately after a race! 

He likes WP work SO much more, although his favorite seems to be Trail. My current trainer is a multiple World and Congress champion trainer/rider/breeder, and she loves him. You couldn't ask for a better, braver trail horse, either. We're going to foray into the mountains this summer. Certainly not going to ask for pleasure movement there.

This was his first very first ride (with a different trainer than my current one), being asked to carry himself. Obviously behind the vertical and not super pretty, but he's gotten so much better.









The biggest problem IMO is when horses don't learn to move FORWARD and how to carry themselves before they're taught to go so slow. Particularly the futurity horses. That's when you have the ones that flip over and don't know what the outside of a ring is.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

EliRose said:


> The biggest problem IMO is when horses don't learn to move FORWARD and how to carry themselves before they're taught to go so slow. Particularly the futurity horses. *That's when you have the ones that flip over* and don't know what the outside of a ring is.


I've just been following along with the conversation as this is a world I know nothing about, so hold off commenting on. However...can you clarify what you mean in the bolded part above??? Are you saying that the downhill movement actually causes horses to somersault, or am I totally misunderstanding what you meant?


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

egrogan said:


> I've just been following along with the conversation as this is a world I know nothing about, so hold off commenting on. However...can you clarify what you mean in the bolded part above??? Are you saying that the downhill movement actually causes horses to somersault, or am I totally misunderstanding what you meant?


Misunderstanding  There are some trainers who rush straight to trying to get finished movement, so there are HUGE training holes. There are several successful trainers around here who are well-known for having their bitted-up colts flip UP and over because they tie them so tight and they panic. My best friend has one of them, and while she is a very quiet horse that does well in the show pen, she has gaping holes in her training. As well as substantial physical problems.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

EliRose said:


> Misunderstanding  There are some trainers who rush straight to trying to get finished movement, so there are HUGE training holes. There are several successful trainers around here who are well-known for having their bitted-up colts flip UP and over because they tie them so tight and they panic. My best friend has one of them, and while she is a very quiet horse that does well in the show pen, she has gaping holes in her training. As well as substantial physical problems.


Ah. Got it. I pictured a bunch of nose dives into the sand. Not sure that going up and over is better, but... 

Anyway, carry on everyone, sorry for the distraction


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Sahara said:


> What a great response for the OP. Watch videos of horses you enjoy.



I didn't mean to say "is this right or is it wrong", but rather I wonder how it came to be considered beautiful and desirable. what about that kind of movement is appealing? appealing enough to gather hoots of appreciation. why can't I see it that way? if someone could really explain it, then convince me . if there is real value, then you should be able to explain it so that others can at least go, "oh, I see what you are talking about".


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> I didn't mean to say "is this right or is it wrong", but rather I wonder how it came to be considered beautiful and desirable. what about that kind of movement is appealing? appealing enough to gather hoots of appreciation. why can't I see it that way? if someone could really explain it, then convince me . if there is real value, then you should be able to explain it so that others can at least go, "oh, I see what you are talking about".


This is where the boiled frog comes in. Competition always without any exceptions rewards extremes and exaggeration. You start with just cleaned-up stock horses in their church clothes, loping gently around an arena showing how *pleasurable* they were to ride. Forty years later, you get "Western Pleasure" being so far removed from where it came from it doesn't even seem like it's related to its origins. 

I'm sure Big Lick was once just ordinary plantation horses showing off their smooth riding qualities. And now look. 

The reason, if you come in cold, it gives you a shock of dismay and disbelief, is that you're like the frog that just got tossed in the hot water instead of being very gradually poached. 

I have found that those inside that world (whatever slowly boiled frog world it is), have no means of explaining to outsiders what the charm is, by and large. They are inside, they can't see what we see. Any more than we can see what they see.


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## tjtalon (Apr 26, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> I didn't mean to say "is this right or is it wrong", but rather I wonder how it came to be considered beautiful and desirable. what about that kind of movement is appealing? appealing enough to gather hoots of appreciation. why can't I see it that way? if someone could really explain it, then convince me . if there is real value, then you should be able to explain it so that others can at least go, "oh, I see what you are talking about".


I've been following this (to try & learn something, 'cuz that's just me). But, I kept wondering, & have wondered, how it came about in the first place.

So, in thinking about it: I wonder if the whole thing came about from some fascination with the simple walk/lope practiced by (US) western cowboys...when they just wanted a slow-going, while traveling along with the cattle herd. Just a nice easy walk, & the horse would lower his/her head naturally (in withers line, I'm thinking...), relax & just plod along.

I could be quite wrong here, but kinda wanted to answer tinyliny's "what you are talking about" from a different perspective.

Just thinking of how all this c**p may have come about in what's become the practice/discipline. God knows western Europe is crazy with it, including major bling (has been for quite awhile).


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## tjtalon (Apr 26, 2013)

Avna;8569873 You start with just cleaned-up stock horses in their church clothes said:


> I was writing/posting while Avna said this. I think that's it, nutshelled.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I didn't mean to say "is this right or is it wrong", but rather I wonder how it came to be considered beautiful and desirable. what about that kind of movement is appealing? appealing enough to gather hoots of appreciation. why can't I see it that way? if someone could really explain it, then convince me . if there is real value, then you should be able to explain it so that others can at least go, "oh, I see what you are talking about".


Are you still talking only about the video in question?

Or WP as a whole?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

The value is in dollars. It started pretty much with the 2 year old futurities. There was a lot of money in the Futurities. That developed into big stakes classes for WP horses. Then it gradually turned into a contest of what horse could go the slowest. If you had to pull a horse off of the rail to pass other horses at any gait, you just did not place very well. They got slower and slower and slower.

People started breeding for horses that moved very flat kneed and slow footed. They were naturally very very slow and unmotivated to move any faster. Trainers found that if they put horses in draw reins very early they could encourage low head carriage in horses not bred to move that way. They became the disconnected 4-beat horses at the lope that also drug their toes at the jog. They also found out that horses bred to travel that slow and flat did it much easier and nicer.

The horses that flip are often the result of using the kind of mechanical walkers that they all have. They are set up in a fenced circle with fencing on the outside of the circle and on the inside of the circle. They have 6 swinging partitions between the arms. The horses are not tied to them like most walkers. They are put in these cages all bitted up, often with vary long-shanked bits. The walker is turned on at a 1-2 MPH 'walk speed'. Then, it is turned up to a jog speed. The fence panel behind them hits them in the butt if they slow too much or stop and they learn to go the exact speed of the walker with their head about chest high.

I watched a 'many-time World Champion trainer' (very well known) work 3 of his horses at his ranch in Purcell, OK (50 miles from me) in his arena. He had a Mexican barn hand drive a four wheeler that had a big aluminum ladder wired across the back of it. It formed the same kind of barrier the horses had on the walker. With the reins mostly draped loose, he spurred and spurred these horses to stay in a lope and lope slow enough to stay behind the 4 wheeler. They did not wiggle their tails with all of the spurring because all of their tails had been blocked with alcohol. 

It is like anything else when you get to a very high level where a lot of money and fame can be made. It is why there are urine and blood tests for forbidden drugs, test for 'killed' tails -- which the trainers that are good at it can get around. It is why there are AQHA representatives walking constantly through the barn areas and distant work and exercise rings, looking in every stall and watching every horse being ridden. 

A lot of money seems to corrupt about every venue starting decades ago with horse racing. I guess it is inevitable.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Cherie said:


> It is like anything else when you get to a very high level where a lot of money and fame can be made. It is why there are urine and blood tests for forbidden drugs, test for 'killed' tails -- which the trainers that are good at it can get around. It is why there are AQHA representatives walking constantly through the barn areas and distant work and exercise rings, looking in every stall and watching every horse being ridden.
> 
> A lot of money seems to corrupt about every venue starting decades ago with horse racing. I guess it is inevitable.


It's not just horses. In any sport you have people going for the extreme to win. Sad but true. Money and fame makes people do crazy stuff.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Absolutely! Look what human athletes will do. Heck, it happens for a lousy ribbon, much less great fame and fortune.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

But humans make that choice for themselves.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> those photos were taken at the last beat of the lope, where the head is at the lowest, and , when a horse must use it's head flinging up and down to GET the lope, it's going to be pretty far down at that last beat of the canter sequence.
> 
> it doesn't look like it's the last beat of the lope sequence because there are three legs weight bearing at one time, instead of the normal one leg, which is the leading leg , that strikes last and bears all weight for the last beat of the canter, for a mear split second.


This is Zander, a two year old reserve champion at TROT. No mistaking this illegal head carriage.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Here is the horse in question a bit later

https://youtu.be/UctslGplxag


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

And again in a warm up. Quite the difference.


https://youtu.be/IuJTKG3htSY


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

natisha said:


> Here is the horse in question a bit later
> 
> https://youtu.be/UctslGplxag


That just looked painful to me.

It is just my preference, but that low head would make me feel like the horse was going to fall forward or was going downhill. Glad I never really got the competition bug.


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## WestCoasted (Jan 19, 2016)

Didn't people say the same thing about Hambletonian's Cat hips?
yes, yes, I know different time and place.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

is that really a pleasure? ^ to ride a horse who has his head so low that you are sitting on top of a slope, with nothing in front of you? that goes so slow , that exhibits no enjoyment or energy in his surroundings? How can that be ? why would one take an animal whose very being is one of movement, and make them into something so like a machine? and call it "pleasure"?


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

I admit, I do enjoy a slow lope, but I'm not into western pleasure that much. Trouble has a nice jog that he does very slowly, naturally and it still doesn't look anything like the western pleasure jog. His lope is slow too, and when it's collected it's a very nice slow lope, but again STILL nothing like the WP lope. I don't really know if I'd want to make him move much slower, as anyone can clearly see with those gaits he is collected and relaxed, and not tearing around on the line. Why the need to slow it down more? Although this isn't my cup of tea, everyone's entitled to an opinion. I don't think dressage is very nice either yet you have to have a certain amount of respect for someone who takes the time and has the skill to train to such degree of collection.


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## WestCoasted (Jan 19, 2016)

*Try it before you knock it*



tinyliny said:


> is that really a pleasure? ^ to ride a horse who has his head so low that you are sitting on top of a slope, with nothing in front of you? that goes so slow , that exhibits no enjoyment or energy in his surroundings? How can that be ? why would one take an animal whose very being is one of movement, and make them into something so like a machine? and call it "pleasure"?


I'm sure there are some WP barns up in Washington. Maybe you can arrange a short ride on one. I'm sure if you rode one, you could see that they enjoy their jobs and their spirits are quite intact.
:cowboy:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Cherie said:


> I know several people that work in the AQHA office in Amarillo. I have had several discussions with them about the show industry and why shows had gotten smaller and smaller while the Ranch Horse, Stock Horse, Foundation Registries and other QH and All Breed Association shows have gotten HUGE.
> 
> More than one of them admitted that it has been very difficult to change the judging standards in the WP, HUS, Trail and WR, Equitation etc classes. The general thinking in Amarillo (I was told) was that to travel THAT slow and that extreme takes a very professional trainer that knows how to make them that extreme and still have a 2 beat jog and a 3-beat lope. Almost all of the judges are trainers and almost all of the professional trainers are judges. This is perpetuated to keep their barns full and keep them in business. The World caliber WP horses cannot be maintained at home. It is truly rare to see the Amateur / non-pro / Youth that maintains their own WP horse in the AQHA as well as the APHA and shows at a World Show level. [I will not speak to the Appaloosa industry as I have never been to their World shows, but I have seen few (or none) of them in the open shows like the NRHA or NCHA shows. Again, I have not been to any open Snaffle Bit WP Futirities in several years but they were absent. When I last attended the huge Richert Celebration, I saw none of them ridden at a high level.
> 
> ...


 well, Cheri, Chocolatity won the Reichardt, against all breeds, and he is an Appaloosa

Some of my friends show ranch, and yes it has a demand, as a horse does not have to be as specialized, highly trained, as when he competes in open reining, open cutting, open western pl, ect
In fact, the ranch horse classes are much as is seen as open type shows, far as caliber. Great, if that is the type of horse you want, but don't knock the horses that are specialists.
There is a place for both the all around horse, and the specialist, competing at the top open venues of their discipline, be in NSBA, NRHA, NRCHA , ec t
Yes, breed shows are loosing entries-why?
IT HAS MORE TO DO with the number of classes a horse can enter at those speciality shows,, and the money payback. A reiner maybe has tow classes he can enter in an AQHA show. (his age group-open, plus non pro ) At an NRHA show, he can enter many more classes, and earn money, not just points.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

WestCoasted said:


> I'm sure there are some WP barns up in Washington. Maybe you can arrange a short ride on one. I'm sure if you rode one, you could see that they enjoy their jobs and their spirits are quite intact.
> :cowboy:



that is a good idea.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

And this is beautiful , folks, at the World cup level.
Yup, that Blue tongue and Rolkur certainly puts dressage miles above western pleasure!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k
Lots of appeal in that jerk and spur gymkana events-ha -ya!

Shame in the Horse Show Ring: You can't out run stupid

Wonderful appeal of the Big Lick, an dhow it is produced!

What Is Soring? : The Humane Society of the United States

Great appeal in that animated way of going, in Saddlebreds, with built up shoing

Any dressage queen is welcome to ride mountain trails, with my pleasure horses, and that might end the debate, as action speaks louder then words
I mean, I can google until hell freezes over, post links, and sure ask, where in the hell is the appeal


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

we aren't talking about your horses. I mean, you've made it abundantly clear that you do not school in this manner.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

If you're trying to prove that western pleasure is better or with out fault because other sports have faults, you shouldn't bother; we all know every horse sport has faults !

My show horses can trail ride too, that's not really the point of this thread though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Smilie said:


> And this is beautiful , folks, at the World cup level.
> Yup, that Blue tongue and Rolkur certainly puts dressage miles above western pleasure!


Go ahead and pass on the misinformation about this video. You won't be the first. What caused this "blue tongue" was the fact that the horse got it's tongue between the two bits of the double bridle. Not because of the rollkur. What I criticize the rider for is that he didn't catch the problem sooner. If he had been very attentive, at all, he would have felt when the horse became less responsive. 

When I was riding at the FEI levels, I had this happen a couple of times. It is not hard for the horse to do this. The difference was that I felt it immediately and dismounted and corrected it.

I am NOT a rollkur fan and have never employed this practice. It was working it's way into the norm when I threw my hands up and left competitive dressage.

But, passing an unfortunate accident off as being standard practice is like ME saying that you are likely no better than the peanut rollers....without knowing any better.






> Any dressage queen is welcome to ride mountain trails, with my pleasure horses, and that might end the debate, as action speaks louder then words
> I mean, I can google until hell freezes over, post links, and sure ask, where in the hell is the appeal


Dressage queen? Slamming much?

My upper level event horses packed game out of the West Elk Wilderness in Colorado every fall. They also guided pack trips, in between competitions. So, only western horses are versatile? Whatever.....


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Oh, I forgot this photo of my prelim horse going over a scree field on West Maroon pass. She was nice and fit for that high altitude riding. And, she could sure jump anything that got in her way.....



Oh yeah...one early spring she actually helped round up cattle in Gunnison to drive them to another pasture.




But, I guess horses doing dressage are only good for the show ring?



I would have put this dressage queen ridden show fluff against you WP horse any day, my friend.


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## Sherian (Aug 28, 2012)

No discipline is innocent, and sometimes the view of an outsider is what makes the problems visible, and we all need to man up and say "this is a problem in our discipline and this is what it really should be like and this is what we are doing about it". It's easy to slam another discipline, takes balls to own up to the problems in your own discipline


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

Allison finch- I am at a dressage barn now where ALL the horses MUST trailride up in the mountains for their training. Gives them good spacial awareness, and I love how the dressage fits them up for the long rides.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

GAWD, it is like a turtle race...like I said, I guess they surf the web while they ride.....

That poor horse now looks lame to me. She certainly doesn't have an even, 4 beat walk.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

There's a barn around here where the WP horses don't get to leave their stall unless they are going to be ridden. They don't want them to have any ambition to even walk to the water tank.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WestCoasted (Jan 19, 2016)

Sorry, Sorry I know I'm going to catch hell for posting this. But, wow, there is alot of hate in this thread.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

maybe this thread really IS pointless. it's a bit like asking someone to explain to me the appeal of Rap music, something I find utterly without appeal, such that I could also find it appealing, or at least imagine I find it so.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

gypsygirl said:


> There's a barn around here where the WP horses don't get to leave their stall unless they are going to be ridden. They don't want them to have any ambition to even walk to the water tank.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And, I know dressage horse that can't be ridden from one arena to another, at a facility.
This discussion is getting way ridiculous
First,a, 
I know as wella s anyone that every discipline has bad actors, and all my responses here have been pretty much knee jerk kinda responses
First, I did not post a video of western pl, or lunge line and ask for opinions, like in the klaus H thread

Second, if I had, I would have selected one that was a better example, showing what is actually desired, and what makes a great western pl horse, versus a mediocre one, that TT posted, just surfing the web, I suppose.

I can also search video clips and find bad examples of various other disciplines, and just to be clear, I have ridden in many other disciplines besides western pl
One year, at the Canadian Supreme, ,a reiner was disqualified, as he was seen hitting his horse between the ears, with a bat, to get that low head set stop

I did not start this thread, but I sure as hell am going to respond.
No, I do not think all western pl horses are ridden correctly , trained correctly, nor do I think it is THE discipline.
I have ridden working cowhorses, reiners and my western pl horses aren't one trick ponies, as I also show them in HUS, trail and western riding
Best dressage horse I have seen ridden, was actually at Cavelia, performing some upper movements without a strangle hold on his head
When people get attacked, by people outside of a discipline, it is common to counter attack, and I fell prey tot hat natural instinct.
Note, I have never started a thread, with a horse ridden in Rolkur and asked, what the heck to do think of this technique and form?

Yup, my pleasure horse can also show hunter in hand-a real dead beat!













My old reining mare in this pic



Hubbys horse


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Anyway, as I said before, I hate getting into these defensive type discussions, and am more that crystal that all disciplines have the good and the bad
I have always ridden my horses out, whether they were reining horses or western pl horses. In fact, I got caught on top of a high ridge, with my reining mare, when it hailed. She had minimal slide plates on, and had a heck of a time coming down, falling several times,while I led her.Last time i rode with slide plates in the mountains
Since we raised horses, I admit to not taking my show horses, pleasure bred or reining, on late fall pack trips, as I do not particularly want to leg picket them.
They all went on rides in the mountains, though, but admit to preferring to tie them to a tree or the trailer over night, versus leg picketing them to graze and paw in the snow. 
We have other horses, that we just trail ride, and where a blemish is not a big deal, that we thus shod with borium smears in the fall, for Elk and Bighorn sheep hunts


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

smilie, your horse is indeed a lovely specimen, and I admire how you and they capably navigate such challenging terrain.

the video I posted was just one that happended to come up on another thread. I don't even really remember where. but, I've been wondering what I said a long time, kind of feeling like I was on the outside, not being able to even comprehend why that sort of body type and movement is so well perceived. I see photos of horses for sale, positioned with that head down, legs all tightly tucked together, standing so downhill, and I shake my head. it's just freakin' wierd in my eyes, without any appeal. like, let's see how we can make a nice looking horse look as bad as possible. 

that's what I am asking. what am I missing here?


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> that's what I am asking. what am I missing here?


I do not think you are "missing" anything. 

You came across a horse moving unnaturally. It's owner being given an award for making it do so.

You find it unlovely, and said so. You wondered why someone would be awarded for such a thing, and the answers don't satisfy.

Personally, I see nothing western in WP and love rehabbing the poor things into energetic horses again.


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## Spec (Jun 13, 2015)

I can see where people get all the bad opinions of western pleasure. There are a lot of bad examples out there.
I show in WP, western riding, horsemanship, etc... I have seen the good and the bad. I have seen riders who cheat and use draw reins and bump their horse with a cathedral bit, intimidating them into going slow and have an unnatural gait and headset. Unfortunately, bad judges at weekender shows sometimes pick these horses to win. This is by no means how WP should be judged or executed. Anyone with some sense and knowledge of the pleasure horse industry knows that. 
On the flipside, good western pleasure trainers do not use shortcuts and will outright tell you if your horse is just not built for western pleasure. A true WP horse moves like that naturally. Yes, training and conditioning accentuates their graceful, smooth, "slow" gaits, but for the most part they are built to do what they do. And I must add, "slow" is not the goal. At all.
A real WP horse is far from "dead" or "numb". In fact, they are light and extremely sensitive. They are ridden on an extremely draped rein because riders need little contact with the bit to communicate with their horse. Good WP horses move just as well in a bosal as they do in a fancy show bit. Good WP horses listen to voice commands and the slightest calf pressure, and will move out and extend the lope into a faster paced, bigger gait if asked. Good WP horses are sane, intelligent, and far from dull. They are versatile animals that can go from the show pen, to crossing creeks, to galloping down the fence line, to being naughty and racing around the roundpen . 
Of course there are terrible riders, judges, breeders and trainers out there who give WP a bad name, as with any equestrian sport. Hatred comes from misunderstanding. Here's a good representation (I think) of how real western pleasure is judged: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8Tt2c-r4Tc


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Well, let's all go show under her! She has the right idea.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I have been sitting on the side lines and watching this discussion evolve, the good, the bad and the ugly.

Personally, I like dressage. It has taught me a lot about control of both myself and my horse. Dressage helped me appreciate the art of movement.

I also did WP back in the old days when “relaxed’ simply meant a horse that looked like it was enjoying itself, at least as much as his rider. I enjoyed that. It taught me patience and to feel my horse.

You know what I recently discovered? Both my favorite horse and I like jumping. Yes, at the ripe old age of 47 he and I are starting to train jumping and again, I find it showing me many new perspectives. 

You know how I discovered he liked jumping? Lots of trail riding! 

Does anyone else see how all of the disciplines can flow and link to compliment one another? 

Each type of riding, instead of closing all of the other doors, opens new ones by developing an ability to try something more, something new, something fun. To see something through SOMEONE ELSE’S eyes. 

It does not have to be a battle of one is “better” than the other or is somehow superior in merit or “THE way” of producing a horse that can be happy, versatile and a joy to ride. As the old saying goes "all roads lead to Rome".

To get into that circuitous argument is to close your mind to possibilities, to exploration and to growth. It makes us all akin to the horse who won’t leave his pasture because he is afraid of what he doesn't know is out there. All that horse knows is he likes it right where he is.

More than why one discipline values a certain type of movement, as is the case here, I more often find myself scratching my head as to why we horse people so often don’t want to leave our pasture and check out the world outside. JMO


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Tiny if I had to guess, and this is just a guess because I've never had the show bug, one year someone entered a wp class on a horse with natural slow movement. It stood out to the judges because it was different than the others and won grand champion. So everyone started buzzing about it, people with more money than sense sent their wp prospects to trainers and told them to train their horse to move like the one that was grand champion that year and thus a fad was born. 

I had a mare who was naturally a slow mover. She had this little dog trot that you could stick the corner of a piece of paper under one of your butt cheeks while riding bareback and that paper wouldn't have fallen off because your butt didn't move her gait was that smooth. Heck, your butt didn't even move if she was feeling frisky and threw in a crow hop because everything she did was smooth. That same mare was also scary fast if she had a reason to be. I also watched her break through a 2 strand electric drop gate and scatter a herd of about 20 cows with calves to cut out the bull because his bellering all night long had her irritated. LOL While she wasn't the one I preferred to saddle up and ride out on the trail, when I did I could still appreciate her natural talent. Actually she was the best to saddle up and ride when life had me down and I needed to just ride and contemplate. She was never a lazy horse.









This was the best picture I could find that shows her feet and as you can see tiny feet aren't a requirement. She wore a size 1 shoe.

Out of her 4 sons only one inherited her natural slowness and the one that is in the picture with her moves out at a good clip.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

I go with Avna and the boiled frog theory. The weirdness evolves gradually into something incomprehensible to outsiders. And as to why WP started to select for slowness? I know nothing of this, but I imagine because many other disciplines already select for speed. In western riding you have barrel racing and in english riding we have TBs. So in order to be different, they decided to go to the opposite extreme and select for slowness. Maybe there is some bizarre, boiled-frog logic there. 

But I can't for the earth justify the hoots of appreciation and enthusiasm for a horse that looks like it's about to stall out and fall on its face.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

good ideas. it is strange that one would spend a ton of time and money training a horse, an animal that is born for speed, and have it go as slow as possible without falling over sideways. 
I am no speed demon, and I like a trot that's small enough to sit, but where it's so slow that it really isnt a trot, but rather a horse that is exchanging one paired diagonal legs with the other, at a sort of "walk/job", with not even a milisecond of suspention, then it's just plain artificial. it is smooth, but is it a horse?


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> maybe this thread really IS pointless. it's a bit like asking someone to explain to me the appeal of Rap music, something I find utterly without appeal, such that I could also find it appealing, or at least imagine I find it so.


Basically. 

I cannot see the appeal in eat fish. I can't stand coffee. Anime makes my skin crawl. I could list hundreds of things which I cannot find the appeal in. There is no amount of convincing that could make me like anything I don't find appealing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

gypsygirl said:


> There's a barn around here where the WP horses don't get to leave their stall unless they are going to be ridden. They don't want them to have any ambition to even walk to the water tank.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is not why some show horses are kept inside!


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

natisha said:


> That is not why some show horses are kept inside!


Pretty crazy, huh ? Never would have thought that would be a reason to lock a horse up, but apparently it is !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

gypsygirl said:


> Pretty crazy, huh ? Never would have thought that would be a reason to lock a horse up, but apparently it is !
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Apparently you read my post as shock to your post but I really meant, "No, that is not why they are kept inside" as a disclaimer to your post.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

natisha said:


> Apparently you read my post as shock to your post but I really meant, "No, that is not why they are kept inside" as a disclaimer to your post.


They told me that was why, it's not like I assumed or guessed ! They said they didn't want the horses to have any ambition to walk forward so they would walk slow enough in the show ring and basically not know any other way. 

You can say "no that's not why" if you want, but that is their reason at this barn, so there's not really anything for you to disagree on with me.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

gypsygirl said:


> They told me that was why, it's not like I assumed or guessed ! They said they didn't want the horses to have any ambition to walk forward so they would walk slow enough in the show ring and basically not know any other way.
> 
> You can say "no that's not why" if you want, but that is their reason at this barn, so there's not really anything for you to disagree on with me.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not disagreeing that they told you that. If you say they did then I believe you but I don't believe them as I know why show horses are kept in & it's not so they don't learn how to walk fast. They are horses, they are born knowing how to go fast.

If slow was a real reason then why are show Saddlebreds often kept in? They sure aren't expected to go slow or sedately but the reasons they are kept in are the same (except for the addition of big shoes).


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

I'm not saying it makes sense or that's why other people do it. That is just how they do it at that barn. The trainer thinks it's stupid, but he puts up with it for more business.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

gypsygirl said:


> I'm not saying it makes sense or that's why other people do it. That is just how they do it at that barn. The trainer thinks it's stupid, but he puts up with it for more business.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now you're getting it. Business.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

I never wasn't getting it....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

My good friend grew up showing and winning in western pleasure. she went to a show for the first time in almost 10 years a year ago. she was disgusted. she would look at the best mover and it would lose. so she started picking the most dead/lame looking ones. All the ones she picked after that would win. She competed on an old style QH too. the main thing i cant stand about how they are breeding the horses is their legs. the halter/wp type horses (the extreme high level horses) kinda gross me out. I would compete in western pleasure but i would never Breed a horse with legs like this










This is Bearskie (Reg names Black's Bear). He looks good for 24 years old (22 in the pics)


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

To me these horses often look lame on all four legs! 

There is always a lot of controversy over racing two year old horses but when a two year old is being ridden like this it has obviously been in work for many months. 

It seems to me that it is a case of 'it ain't what you know but who you know.' 

It could all be stopped in a season of the AQHA wanted to. They have rules and of these are not adhered to then the judge is banned from judging. Plain and simple. If a couple were banned then the others would fall into line.

I cannot get my head around US showing, it is so different from this side of the pond. 

No ridden classes for horses under four years that season, no drugs of any sort and there is random testing. Judges are not allowed to judge a horse they have owned or bred. No in hand classes for horses over four years except for Arabs and Native Ponies and brood mares - which must have a foal at foot. 

Young in hand horses are not lunged but led in hand at walk and trot. 

Ridden horses are also ridden by a judge and have to also be stripped of the saddle and led up in hand.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Sounds like i need to move to the UK and show there! seriously i hate seeing a 2 or 3 year old showing high level. the darn things live for 30+ years, can't you wait 3?


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

gypsygirl said:


> I never wasn't getting it....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, you believe they are stall kept so they go slow....so, yeah.

"They don't want them to have any ambition to even walk to the water tank"...your words


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

natisha said:


> Well, you believe they are stall kept so they go slow....so, yeah.
> 
> "They don't want them to have any ambition to even walk to the water tank"...your words


That's what the owners said. Not my thing and not my horses. I would never do that to a horse because it makes no sense. I'm not sure you really read my posts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

KigerQueen said:


> Sounds like i need to move to the UK and show there! seriously i hate seeing a 2 or 3 year old showing high level. the darn things live for 30+ years, can't you wait 3?


The UK is still battling with its show ring problem of wanting horses to be produced like fat stock but at least the problem is recognized and keeps getting shouted out

What I don't get in these WP classes is this very slow pace - where is that ever a desired thing? Sure a horse needs to know how to slow down and it has to know how to shorten a stride - part of what collection is about, but collection is about shortening a stride without losing energy and impulsion. Those horses look as if they're ready for the knackers yard


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I think this may be one of the areas where it isn’t about the usefulness of something but the challenge of it.

Less about the purpose for a rider and more about the training challenge it creates.

Kind of like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4-y_dBvMQ8

What riding purpose is there for that other than it is (IMO) darn cool or perhaps some guy using his horse’s feet on the cobblestones to call a gal he is sweet on over to her window! 

No real modern practical riding use though. 

We humans sometimes do things just because we can.


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

Luv equins said:


> I know. Right... I really do not understand this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxVlxT_x-f0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That didn't take long......


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

jaydee said:


> What I don't get in these WP classes is this very slow pace - where is that ever a desired thing?



In my limited experience, we never pushed cattle very hard, and cattle don't get in any big hurry when they don't have to. so slow is a little more desirable, but the rest of it is a joke.

Jim


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I think this may be one of the areas where it isn’t about the usefulness of something but the challenge of it.
> 
> Less about the purpose for a rider and more about the training challenge it creates.
> 
> ...


I think you are right. It is the challenge of it along with being able to win a lot of money and recognition for being really good at it. It is no different than breeding halter horses with a certain extreme 'look' that have so much muscle and such straight (and useless) legs that have no practical riding purpose what-so-ever. Is it different than trying to breed the smallest mini -- just for the sake of having the smallest mini, even if it is so inbred that it is unhealthy?

The lack of integrity that comes from both trainers and owners with a LOT of time and money invested in a horse is what causes a lot of the problems. This is why we see blocked tails and a lot of drugs. This is why we see crippled horses ridden in competition. It can be in racing, Dressage or jumping just as much as in western classes. Money and fame corrupt a lot of otherwise good people.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> And this is beautiful , folks, at the World cup level.
> Yup, that Blue tongue and Rolkur certainly puts dressage miles above western pleasure!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k
> Lots of appeal in that jerk and spur gymkana events-ha -ya!
> ...


Yup, every sport has their issues. I, personally, like the difficulty in Dressage. Sure, I'm sure there is difficulty in WP, but it's not my cup of tea nor would I even attempt to turn my horse into one.

And heck yes. As a "dressage queen" I'll hook up my trailer right now and meet you on those mountain trails. I'd even go so far as to allow my green as grass husband to ride my "dressage diva" mare hiking up those mountains. We may not have mountains here, but we do live in a hilly region. And my mare has never once said no to a good trail ride.

I see where TinyLiny is coming from since I never understand the appeal, but it's a good thing we all like something different. It'd be extremely boring if we all did WP. Or all did Dressage. Or all did jumping.

Anyway, that's my .02. WP is not for everyone just like Dressage is not for everyone. And saying the whole sport is abusive (regardless what sport) is quite rude. I can guarantee my mare has no clue what Rolkur is, and she'd probably kill someone attempting it on her. I have friends who ride WP (only the Arabian world, not the QH world) so I usually refrain from any remarks against their style.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> is that really a pleasure? ^ to ride a horse who has his head so low that you are sitting on top of a slope, with nothing in front of you? that goes so slow , that exhibits no enjoyment or energy in his surroundings? How can that be ? why would one take an animal whose very being is one of movement, and make them into something so like a machine? and call it "pleasure"?


My old mare had a western pleasure jog. It was almost four beats at times. When she did jog no matter how many beats it was the smoothest thing in the world and she could do it for HOURS and not tire. However, she could also move out when she wanted to. I never limited her to a 'pleasure' jog or 'forward' jog. She could do a western pleasure class and then go sort cows and rope, she was just a versatile horse (as most pleasure horses were when I was showing regularly.) I've ridden pleasure horses that had really slow canters but were the smoothest things. 

However this new 'style' is not comfortable, it's not right in my opinion. So if you get the chance to ride a CORRECT pleasure horse I would do so, they're like rocking horses! ;-)



Smilie said:


> And this is beautiful , folks, at the World cup level.
> Yup, that Blue tongue and Rolkur certainly puts dressage miles above western pleasure!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k
> Lots of appeal in that jerk and spur gymkana events-ha -ya!
> ...


Smilie I ride Saddleseat, dressage, western pleasure, reining, trail riding and driving. In ALL of these disciplines there are good and bad and mediocre things. The Appeal in ANY of these disciplines is when it's ridden right. My park horses are not 'built up' in shoes, they're all natural. My pleasure horses are not winning but they have an even headset, nice collection and are trained right and not 'burnt' out. 

Not one discipline is evil but you have to admit that when you see horses being the bad examples of it, it throws a lot of people away. I can't count how many people have asked me how I sore my horses for park or how much weight is in their shoes, or accused me of 'hyping' them up. In my case it isn't true. But it's an opportunity for me to admit the failings in my discipline and show people a different (and kinder) way to do things. 

There's no appeal in bad riding/training/showing. 



Sherian said:


> No discipline is innocent, and sometimes the view of an outsider is what makes the problems visible, and we all need to man up and say "this is a problem in our discipline and this is what it really should be like and this is what we are doing about it". It's easy to slam another discipline, takes balls to own up to the problems in your own discipline


THIS THIS THIS!! 
I could go on for days about all the bad in my disciplines, and I will be the first to admit that they're not faultless. I'm a big advocate for improvement. 

Smilie I don't think anyone's attacking your personal horses or methods or even the discipline itself but I think people are more curious as to WHY this is seen as acceptable and 'right'.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

It is a horse sport. I don't like it, but no one makes me train or compete in it. I initially liked watching dressage, but now I don't. So...I don't watch dressage.

If someone says X must train or compete in horse sport Y, run away. But if someone WANTS to compete, and they treat their horse with respect - and some do and some don't - then leave them be.

I'd as soon be emasculated as ride WP or dressage in circles around an arena. But others love it, and would HATE riding a horse through a neighborhood or out in the desert. If rider and horse are happy, and the horse is not harmed by the training - and there are terrible and abusive trainers in all sports, and in trail riding - then be happy for the happy horse and happy rider.

There are people who would hate being in this saddle:










I like it and my horse seems happy, so we do it. It is neither better nor worse than any properly ridden horse sport.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

It's human nature to show their dominance over the natural. We do this is almost every facet of competition. We take things to the extremes because it shows one person's mastery of the extreme, over other people's mastery.

Look what we have done to dogs. Going to such extremes that some breeds cannot even give birth, without surgery, any more. Some have such genetic health flaws that they could never survive without human care. What is the usefullness of a dog like this, except to show mastery over nature?










The same goes into equine competition. The halter horses have become unservicable freaks, in many shows.......the jumps in eventing have become unrealistic obstacles that no horse should be asked to jump.......the movements in dressage have become so exxagerated that they surpass normal.....I could go on with EVERY discipline aiming at extremes. It is "training one upsmanship" at its finest!!

It is human nature, but it should be curbed, before it is too late for the health and usability of our equine partners.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I am not even going to read any more posts here, but will post this video, in western pl judging, for those that really want to understand abit more, verus just bashing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMP9OMMEmW8
Every discipline has it's good and bad, and there are people in every discipline that will do anything to win,
However, great horsemen recognize the good in any discipline, put the horse first, and never just winning
The truly good western pleasure horses have a great deal of ability, natural good movement, brought out by trainers that realize how to create correct movement, versus forcing any head set, know to build strength, you do move western pl horses out while training, long trotting, counter canters, half passing etc
Horsemen also realize that the way a western pl horse is asked to move in the showring, ups the degree of difficulty, when every horse there can easily pick up all gaits, go on a fairly loose rein
Why do you raise jumps in a jump off?" The concept is no different
To then conclude that a trained western pl horse, can't move out like any other horse on a trail, run in the pasture, buck and play , is just ludicrous
No, I don't show at the World level, but at the regional breed level, and I also show my pleasure horses in classes considered 'all around', for a western pl bred horse(trail, western pl, horsemanship, western riding and HUS) That allows me to ride my horses out, as I doubt a world level western pl horse is regularly trail ridden, any more than an olympic dressage horse!
I have taken enough clinics with good western pl trainers, that I know what it takes to get correct movement, and it sure as hell isn't forcing a head set, just getting slow, without regard to correctness, aimlessly going round and round on the rail.
If people are going to critique western pleasure, at least make the effort to read, watch vidEOs on what is considered good, and read some traiNIng programs by good western pl trainers, like Dana Hokana, Doug Carpenter, Steve heckaMAN.
nOPE, HAVEN'T SHOWN at the World level, but have earned ROms and ApHC regional awards, shown successfully NSBA futurity against all breeds, while keeping my horses happy, riding them out, no hock injections or alcohol blocking of tails


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Yes I am surprised at how long this has gone on, seeing that is has been done to death in other areas. I will try to repeat myself, the way of going is appealing to those who show in it, not many others would be interested. And yes, the show (and I include racing in this) industry does largely support horse ownership. If all racing and showing were to disappear overnight, our backyard horses would become so expensive and hard to keep because the veterinarian advances that we have would become far and few between, that not many of us would have horses.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Smilie, I think you're the exception, not the rule.

How is making the lope a four-beat, lame-looking gait "upping the degree of difficulty"? That makes ZERO sense. There is no impulsion there. There is no collection. I've watched NUMEROUS World-level WP videos and it's all the horses dumping along on their forehands, looking lame.

Yes, there are extremes, but when those extremes are what is winning, then it becomes a problem.

I don't have a problem with the way the filly in the original video is moving. She looks like she would be a nice ride when she's older...if she were allowed to keep those gaits and not have them grossly exaggerated.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Smilie, I think you're the exception, not the rule.
> 
> How is making the lope a four-beat, lame-looking gait "upping the degree of difficulty"? That makes ZERO sense. There is no impulsion there. There is no collection. I've watched NUMEROUS World-level WP videos and it's all the horses dumping along on their forehands, looking lame.
> 
> ...


Actually, if you go to the World Show in OKC you will see that the high placing horses are no longer four-beating. They ARE collected, to a point. They are not collected enough and putting enough weight on their hind ends to keep them from the extreme head-bobbing, but they are much better than the 'peanut rollers' and '4-beaters' of the 90s. 

The jog is so slow at the big shows that it often gets corrupted to a 'broken' 2 beats with the hind foot landing slightly before the opposite front foot. 

These are not natural gaits, but the horses are naturally low headed and naturally slow footed. Then, the high level horses are trained to an extreme.

Much of the low head carriage seen in both reining and WP comes from breeding for it. The modern WP broodmares seen out in pasture rarely lift their heads, even when they perk their ears and are looking at something. It is just what they are.

I know from experience that the flunk-out WP horses (trained only for WP Futurities and rail classes) are VERY difficult to make into good trail horses and saddle horses. Granted, the horses coming out of the BNT barns have never been ridden out like Smilie's horses have. They have been ridden 100% of the time in very smooth, manicured arena footing. They do not know how to pick up their feet and look where they are going. I have had several near wrecks (horses on their knees) and husband had one fall on him and pin his leg. Some finally learned to pick their feet up a little, and some made very nice horsemanship horses, but they have been such terrible saddle horses that we quit buying them. We still bought flunk-out reiners and cutters but had to really watch for soundness in their hocks and stifles.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Smilie, I think you're the exception, not the rule.
> 
> How is making the lope a four-beat, lame-looking gait "upping the degree of difficulty"? That makes ZERO sense. There is no impulsion there. There is no collection. I've watched NUMEROUS World-level WP videos and it's all the horses dumping along on their forehands, looking lame.
> 
> ...


Four beater do not win, in upper competition , under good judges. 
A western pleasure horse on his forehand, does not win. It takes a great deal of lift, and if you ride one, going correctly, you will feel like you are sitting higher
Please, no impulsion! There is a reason many western pleasure horses have to have hock injections, same as many dressage horses, because they are really using that back end
There is bad movement in any discipline, but unfortunately, more apparent in western pl
i hAVE a book , written by an English person (always picking up horse books, at book sales ),l that states many dressage horse, even at very upper limits , are heavy on the forehand.
I see all kinds of ads in Gaitpost, an horse sale Mag, mainly dedicated to English disciplines, and see countless horses hollowed out, ridden on tight rein contact and behind the vertical. Unfortunately, because these horses are moving out, most of those ;bleacher judges', don't recognize the faults
If you never have ridden a good well bred western pl horse, you have no idea as to how they naturally want to be slow legged, pick up the lope, versus trying to trot into it out of forward momentum
You can watch a bunch of young horses playing in field, and seeing some racing around, trotting faster and faster until they pick up the lope. The NATURAL WESTERN PL HORSE, will instead, rock back and pick up a lope form behind, moving with cadence, versus churning legs
I have trail ridden both working bred horses and western pl horses, and there is no comparison as to smoothness
If all western pl horses were on their four hand, they would not be able to change over to western riding, performing cadenced fly changes
All to often, any western pl horse able to lope slow, is automatically sais by the uninformed to four beat. This is absolutely not true. 

Video: AQHA Western Pleasure Judging

Western Pleasure: First, Be Correct | Horse&Rider

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hREmgyk4DoE

https://www.unce.unr.edu/publications/files/ag/other/fs9610.pdf

Maybe, read these links, become more informed as to what you are seeing, and use open clasess, not novice classes to try and truly evaluate those world Champions

There was a video, can't find it now, and am in a hurry. It had different coloured leg wraps on pleasure horse, to help those that could not really tell when a horse was moving slow, but correct, verus just slow, and four beating
Be careful, before you call a \horse a four beater, really watching those foot falls. When a horse four beats, he has been slowed beyond his ability to keep a true three beat lope, and the second beat of that second stride( outside front, and inside hind, hitting ground at same time ), breaks down into two beats.
It is impossible for a horse to move slow and correct, on his front end


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Cherie said:


> Actually, if you go to the World Show in OKC you will see that the high placing horses are no longer four-beating. They ARE collected, to a point. They are not collected enough and putting enough weight on their hind ends to keep them from the extreme head-bobbing, but they are much better than the 'peanut rollers' and '4-beaters' of the 90s.
> 
> The jog is so slow at the big shows that it often gets corrupted to a 'broken' 2 beats with the hind foot landing slightly before the opposite front foot.
> 
> ...


To add to this, watch some reiners in that slow circle, they are definitely 4 beating, but are not marked down, as in western pl.
In fact, Bob Avila, a renowned working cowhorse and reining trainer, in an article in western horseman, suggested to put some western pl lope training on reiners, to clean up their lope
Far as any elite upper show horse, few make great trial horses, if just arena ridden. 
You can get ex race horses trail ridden, but i have found them never to be great trail horses
Each one of us, has to decide if they want that upper elite specialist, or a horse that can do several things, successfully, and show at a regional level
I don't care if that is a reiner or a cutter, or a games horse, a dressage horse or a pleasure horse. If they are only arena ridden, how the heck can they be great trail horses?
At the same time, take some of those horses only trail ridden, subject them to the atmosphere of a show ground,, and they can loose it
I re call one ApHC judge, being given a World Champion trAIL HORSE, to ride out. He said that horse almost killed him, and would have walked off a cliff, if asked to do so!
I do know, that I will ride a pleasure horse out any day, to one that has been race trained or gamed Maybe they are out there, but personally, have yet to see a gymkana horse that is a pleasure to trail ride


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

to elaborate on trail riding itself, I know darn well that Cheri could ride any trail I ride, but I very much doubt, she would take any dude string riders on the trails I ride with my husband, who is atrophy hunter. Certainly, you never, ever see any organized trail rides on those hunting trails, nor even the average recreational rider.
few riders climb above the tree line, on frozen steep trails with sheer drop offs.
Takes a different degree of trail riding, to have a horse, negotiating those steep trails, where any spook, stall out can mean disaster, or even a mis step for that matter
You need a horse 'more broke, then one just fitting into a dude string, and then it does matter, if that horse blows his mind, crossing a bog, climbing an icy steep trail, where a stall can mean a horse slipping backwards, as in that example of "Un branded'


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## Fahntasia (Dec 19, 2011)

WestCoasted said:


> I've never seen a horse piaffe in a field. I've also never seen a horse change leads every other step. I have a high respect for dressage, but lets not pretend it doesn't have unnatural movements.
> 
> To defend WP, A fully trained WP horse is a pleasure to ride. They are specifically trained to be relaxed, calm, and obedient. The speed is designed to be the most comfortable to ride in....without posting. There are much better WP LL videos out there. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1J6UqDXRuI
> 
> I think this filly might just be a bad example. Here she is being ridden. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYJ2E-WYoxI


Well then you have never seen my TB mare on a rampage in her paddock LOL! she piaffes like nobody's business, has NOT been trained to it yet. She will swap leads willy nilly like a silly goose as shes running around making sure those gremlins dont catch her :rofl: AND she does the most gorgeous caprioles! So is dressage natural to horse in movement? YES it is.
:runninghorse2:


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Smilie said:


> It takes a heck of a lot more self carriage and good attitude, for a young horse to move slow, just lunged off a halter, then to be tearing around, leaning on that lunge line, doing laps!


Agreed! Very poised, VERY well trained and listening extremely well. ALSO, beautiful turnout.
With GREAT apologies, though to those of you who are fighting weight, it doesn't look good for the horse to be a good weight and the handler look like she couldn't get on an (adult) horse without help.
It reminds me of the Pro Football coaches who aren't in good shape, either.
This young a horse should never be asked to collect and carry themselves, unless they are in turnout, because the bones haven't set yet.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

What an unnecessary comment Corporal. Idk what weight has to do with WP. . .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

That was a bit mean...


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Why, is that person here on THIS FORUM? I meant no offense to anyone HERE, and I said so!!!! Go back and READ my post.
I'd want to look my best showing off such a well trained filly.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Still not sure what weight has to do with doing well at a show. Unless the judge is judging on LOOKS (which lets face it if they are they're not a good judge lol) your ability to ride should have 110% judging. 

As a slightly heavier rider I can safely say my weight has no impact on my ability to ride well. Now of course I won't be doing any bikini barrel races but no judge should point me down for that.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

That wasn't the point of my post.
Still, I guess everybody now accepts people showing that don't look like athletes.
Didn't used to be that way.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Smilie said:


> I do know, that I will ride a pleasure horse out any day, to one that has been race trained or gamed Maybe they are out there, but personally, have yet to see a gymkana horse that is a pleasure to trail ride



I just wanna chime in with the photos that speak for themselves before I make a response that's actually on topic. 

These are my partners and I's two horses. The bay one is mine, she is a finished barrel horse. She knows every gymkhana event. Poles, speed barrels, flags, figure 8, biwrangle, whatever. She is coming ten, and is currently slaughtering the field out here. She has been running for coming three years after her last career. She has won a lot of money, especially in the past year. Here's some video proof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1zOhm1hIlU

Now this is Spud, he is eighteen this year. Andrew got him as a five year old, patterned himself, competed for YEARS. This is a 19 second pole horse. In our closet, it is littered with buckles Spud has won. Jackets, spur straps, headstalls, halters, and the blanket Selena currently wears says "Andrew and Spud - Hi Point TDSC 2011".

Here's some photos of them being simply amazing trail animals.

*Remember, perpetuating stereotypes of others while trying to debunk stereotypes of another is wildly ineffective. *

At the end of the day, it comes down to what you want from your horse, and the time you spend with them. No horse can be expected to be good at something they have never been exposed to, or trained for. Just as any barrel horse who comes through my barn is expected to be a calm, model citizen - I would hope if you wanted a pleasure horse who could stand up and break the stereotype, you would make one. As I see you seem to have done already.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I am going to totally ignore Corporal's comment because I don't even have words to respond.

Anyway.

I believe a good show horse is a good show horse. As BSMS said earlier, a happy rider, happy horse - Who cares? Be good at what you love. Make your horses what you want them to be. Have a relationship with them. I could sit down and make a list of all the things in the horse world I don't like - Yet, I don't have to partake in ANY of those things. It's a huge, diverse sport - Find your place in it, and unless you see legitimate abuse to an animal, perhaps you ought to keep your mouth shut and be happy for those who have found a different place in it than yours. Less competition in your side of it anyway at that point.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Love that name, "Spud"!! Reminds my of my dog, "Pygma" (Pyg)
How DO you girls keep your hats on?!?


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Corporal said:


> Love that name, "Spud"!! Reminds my of my dog, "Pygma" (Pyg)
> How DO you girls keep your hats on?!?


Ah the cost of hats. Lol.

I pin them along the brim until my head practically bleeds. And when I run, I have to tilt my head down because the wind pulls the hat back and in turn pulls my hair. It's rather uncomfortable, but the photos always look great.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

All my fiance's horses trail ride and they were all trained for barrels. even the 30 year old tb. His worst offence is his wanna be Dressage act on the trails (he has a kick butt passage. HE even has the skill of cantering in place as well). With the way western pleasure is going i would show in it. My fiance's paint has an amazing slow jog that he can do naturally without training. And i am glad i have been seeing improvement in WP. I have seen a positive movement in alot of western shows since the introduction of the Ranch horse classes (Ranch horse conformation, Ranch horse under saddle and Working Ranch Horse.). I see alot more aplea in the Ranch horse Classes as i feel its their way of taking a few steps back to basics.

This is Odies trot. he can go from sport horse to WP in a few strides on his own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LwyyxPRrYc


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

WestCoasted said:


> Foxhunter said:
> 
> 
> > With dressage the movements are natural, you will see horses performing them naturally in a field.
> ...


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## AriatChick772 (Feb 13, 2013)

I train barrel horses, but I've ridden hunters, cutters, reiners, exercised racehorses for a while, WP horses, jumped some, even ridden some country English pleasure Arabs (which BTW is SO MUCH FUN) and gaited horses too. Every single one of these takes incredible skill on the horses part. It's easy to judge them, but if you go and work alongside a GOOD trainer in each of these disciplines you will see just how talented all of these these horses are.

My time with pleasure horses was so fun. I, like many people here thought it was absurd but boy was I wrong! They are just as much an athlete as my barrel horses. I thought I'd be bored riding one as I typically deal with high speed performance horses but it was quite the opposite experience hahah. Those horses are SO precise and sensitive. I got to help with the training of some WP Arabs at one time too and they are by far my favorite pleasure horses.

With that said, I have never and will never agree with the Tennessee Walking horses and the Rackers, I showed a few flat shod classes with a TWH but I couldn't physically make myself go back and see the ones on stacks and the look of fear in all of them.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Corporal said:


> Agreed! Very poised, VERY well trained and listening extremely well. ALSO, beautiful turnout.
> With GREAT apologies, though to those of you who are fighting weight, it doesn't look good for the horse to be a good weight and the handler look like she couldn't get on an (adult) horse without help.
> It reminds me of the Pro Football coaches who aren't in good shape, either.
> This young a horse should never be asked to collect and carry themselves, unless they are in turnout, because the bones haven't set yet.


Yikes!! :shock: 

But no own bats an eyelash when men who look like line backers ride their tiny little reiners...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

My gymkhana ponies competed in dressage, show jumping and hunted plus hacked out most days, I see no reason why a Games pony that's properly trained can't be versatile
While its good to see that some WP horses are out riding trails in a normal gait with a normal head carriage it just takes me back to the same question - why the exaggerated look for the show ring?
What is the advantage in having that really low head carriage?


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## MajorSealstheDeal (Jan 4, 2011)

AriatChick772 said:


> I train barrel horses, but I've ridden hunters, cutters, reiners, exercised racehorses for a while, WP horses, jumped some, even ridden some country English pleasure Arabs (which BTW is SO MUCH FUN) and gaited horses too. Every single one of these takes incredible skill on the horses part. It's easy to judge them, but if you go and work alongside a GOOD trainer in each of these disciplines you will see just how talented all of these these horses are.
> 
> My time with pleasure horses was so fun. I, like many people here thought it was absurd but boy was I wrong! They are just as much an athlete as my barrel horses. I thought I'd be bored riding one as I typically deal with high speed performance horses but it was quite the opposite experience hahah. Those horses are SO precise and sensitive. I got to help with the training of some WP Arabs at one time too and they are by far my favorite pleasure horses.
> *
> With that said, I have never and will never agree with the Tennessee Walking horses and the Rackers,* I showed a few flat shod classes with a TWH but I couldn't physically make myself go back and see the ones on stacks and the look of fear in all of them.


Please don't throw all TWH enthusiasts in the same bucket. Those of us up here in Alberta, don't even have performance classes (stacks/chains/gimmicks) at our shows. I'm sure you didn't mean that, but I think it's important to shine a light on those who love gaited horses and are proud of them, for their _natural abilities_. TWHBEA and their magazine, The Voice, is not an honest representation of the majority of us who own, ride and show walkers.


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

Same thing happens in the dog show world. The breed standard is set, and year after year everyone is trying to outdo what was done the year before. If the standard calls for a short nose and long hair, they keep breeding shorter noses and longer hair until you get this: 










Or shorter hind legs and lower backs, until you get this: 










In the WP world, everyone's trying to get longer, lower and slower. Same effect.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Corporal said:


> Why, is that person here on THIS FORUM? I meant no offense to anyone HERE, and I said so!!!! Go back and READ my post.
> I'd want to look my best showing off such a well trained filly.


Good for you. But it's absolutely none of your business, and you're not the judge, who obviously didn't care. Someone is supposed to drop a ton of weight to show LUNGE LINE???? Good grief, she's not even sitting on the horse!

If you don't see how your comment was offense and potentially very hurtful, then no one will be able to change your mind. Doesn't matter that the owner isn't on the forum.

Saying "no offense" will never make something unoffensive.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

SlideStop said:


> Yikes!! :shock:
> 
> But no own bats an eyelash when men who look like line backers ride their tiny little reiners...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some people do. Just not the blinkers that matter.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

elle1959 said:


> Same thing happens in the dog show world. The breed standard is set, and year after year everyone is trying to outdo what was done the year before. If the standard calls for a short nose and long hair, they keep breeding shorter noses and longer hair until you get this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That first dog! :rofl: At least with a normal haircut that dog could probably look normal. I feel bad for the shepherd. Dog breeding is really bad when it comes to genetically making the dogs uncomfortable. Bull dogs have so many skin & breathing problems, for example. So sad.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Jan1975 said:


> That first dog! :rofl: At least with a normal haircut that dog could probably look normal. <snip>


No, it couldn't. The whole dog is deformed under the hair.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Ah, western pleasure. Even with as many problems as I have with my horses, I can always feel good in the fact that they don't move LIKE THAT. Kind of like, no matter how bad your life is, there is always somebody worse off that you are. So yeah, my horses might be wild out of their skin for not being worked all winter, but at least they don't move LIKE THAT.

So yeah, I totally believe it is the boiled frog principle. They have been boiling for so long, they don't even know it. (It's amazing sometimes what people can't see). 

As much as I don't approve of Big Lick, at least those horses move out. And I feel like if you took the stacks off there might be a fun riding horse hiding in there. 

The Paso Finos, the same thing. They remind me of a sewing machine, all up and down with no forward movement. But I have a feeling that if you let them move out, they would actually have a very nice gait.

So maybe it makes me a bad person, but Western Pleasure makes me feel better about my own horses. They aren't always well behaved, but at least they move normally and don't look lame. :thumbsup:

PS. Did anyone notice in that one video, of the same yearling only when she was older and under saddle, that there was an actual normal moving horse in the class? A guy riding what looked like a nice ranch-type Quarter Horse, riding on the inside passing all the beaten looking WP horses? I wonder how HE placed?


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## WestCoasted (Jan 19, 2016)

*A call to arms*



Fahntasia said:


> Well then you have never seen my TB mare on a rampage in her paddock LOL! she piaffes like nobody's business, has NOT been trained to it yet. She will swap leads willy nilly like a silly goose as shes running around making sure those gremlins dont catch her :rofl: AND she does the most gorgeous caprioles! So is dressage natural to horse in movement? YES it is.
> :runninghorse2:


I love all these animations!! :loveshower:

Anyway, I've heard alot of "my mare does it on a rampage", "my stallion does it while breeding", or "mine does it when shes antsy." Makes me laugh every time. That's not a collected piaffe, that's a ****y horse jigging. (Que the flames) A true piaffe takes years of in-hand training and practice. As does alternating lead changes. Both are so beautiful to watch, but are not the activities of an untrained horse. I'm not knocking dressage. I think it's a gorgeous, artistic sport.

Back to the point of this thread, action creates difference, not words. Rolkur was/is fought with letters, emails, protests, organizational lobbying, and inside out campaigning. A large number of dressage professionals, high and low, came together, gathered empirical evidence, and took ACTION. Forum posts are dangerously close to slactavism.

So, I'd like to issue a challenge to the dissenters on this thread. *What are you willing to do?* What ideas do you have? Will you protest events, like the anti-big lick folks? Are you willing to beat pavement and collect signatures? Will you print or hand out leaflets? Could you start an action group in your area? Have you contacted a veterinarian to provide decisive proof of the injury? Maybe you could start a website to provide the data and evidence to the horse public? Every cause has big and small things that help. 

Given the length of this thread and others like it, I think it time to go or get off the pot. What was the quote about tyranny triumphing by good men doing nothing?

I showed WP during the 80's; in the black days of cut tendons and draw reins in stalls. It's improved a great deal since then by people* getting involved*. I don't have a problem with WP. I don't see it as any worse than any other major equine sport.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

WestCoasted said:


> So, I'd like to issue a challenge to the dissenters on this thread. *What are you willing to do?* What ideas do you have? Will you protest events, like the anti-big lick folks? Are you willing to beat pavement and collect signatures? Will you print or hand out leaflets?


When my kids wanted to show *I was willing* to tell them "no" to WP and HUS.

Now that mine are grown and two of three are involved in functional areas of the horse industry, the third only riding when I need a hand, I find many other ways to support better riding.

I, as part owner of a grazing association/ranch, loan horses to kids not fortunate enough to have their own. The ranch pays their fees and hauls them to area shows if they want to compete in classes like working cow horse or trail. The kids, in return have to have an adult from their family with them and sign up for any three or six or more organized project days during the more temperate months.

Letters have been written. Petitions have been signed. People have stopped showing and ended their membership over this. But the AQHA knows there is still a large market for these poor horses and ignores the opposition. They are a business first and foremost. Not an altruistic agency protecting the purity and heritage of the Quarter Horse breed.

I think it's great that Ranch Riding has gained popularity. Though honestly when in the southeast a few years ago and watching a few of those, I could not tell a difference between what I was seeing there and the AQHA WP classes. Completely non-functional movement by the horses. Nothing western about them.


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## WestCoasted (Jan 19, 2016)

Textan49 said:


> I have to agree with Foxhunter, I haven't seen a piaffe yet but certainly have seen horses changing leads perfectly for three or four strides. I also saw our thirty two year old Trakener mare do a capriole in the pasture. I don't think that was any accident because she seemed to position herself before hand and concentrate on what she was doing.


I think there is a strong possibility that your mare was trained to capriole at some point. Especially if she's setting herself up first and focusing. Sounds like a great mare.

Also, I think it's wonderful that you have a 32yo mare. I love seeing people keep horses well into old age.


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## WestCoasted (Jan 19, 2016)

boots said:


> Letters have been written. Petitions have been signed. People have stopped showing and ended their membership over this. But the AQHA knows there is still a large market for these poor horses and ignores the opposition. They are a business first and foremost. Not an altruistic agency protecting the purity and heritage of the Quarter Horse breed.


Are you saying it's hopeless or that you've given up? I hope not. Change takes consistency and dedication. 
So two things that you did, didn't work. Or maybe somebody else tried and you got discouraged. You obviously feel strongly, so try and try again. I'm sure their is something more you can do.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> Ah, western pleasure. Even with as many problems as I have with my horses, I can always feel good in the fact that they don't move LIKE THAT. Kind of like, no matter how bad your life is, there is always somebody worse off that you are. So yeah, my horses might be wild out of their skin for not being worked all winter, but at least they don't move LIKE THAT.
> 
> So yeah, I totally believe it is the boiled frog principle. They have been boiling for so long, they don't even know it. (It's amazing sometimes what people can't see).
> 
> ...


 Go back, read my other posts. You do not have to like the way a good western pl horse moves in the show ring, nor understand what makes a good one, as I;m sure you don;t have a Judge;s card, buT the idea that a horse western pl trained, can't ride out , move out, is just plain stupid and ignorant
If you know me at all, you know I ride trails , many here would never even dream of riding. I can chase cows on my pleasure horses
Does a human ballerina, move down the trail like that, not be able to walk an hike normally?
If you were more informed, you would know what is used to achieve that BIg LickMoving normal? Give me a break!So sore that they are rocked back onto those hind legs, snapping those painful front feet up, high and fast as possible.
Yes, there now are inspectors to check for soring, but they can't be everywhere, and hose offenders are back, soon as those inspectors are gone. There was a big investigative article one year, in Horse and rider
Those pasterns are ;cooked; with a chemical, then wrapped in plastic. Horses often down in stalls, moaning in pain between classes, bloody pasterns covered up with a salve
Then there is pressure shoing, where borium or some other substance is put between the hoof and the shoe
The fact, that you would consider the BIg Lick, to be better, more 'normal, where pain is purposely inflicted in those horses to get that Big Lick, negates any validity to anything you have written!
You know, I was going to stay away from this post, made an honest effort to try and post info on how a good western pleasure horse moves, have shown enough times that I ride my pleasure horses, in some stuff I;m sure you would not go with your horse, having read how 'broke' it is. That my horses move out on trails with the best of them, can long trot and gallop, and in fact, use that as part of conditioning, but when you suggest that Big Lick horses, somehow move more natural and better, completely ignorant about pressure shoing, or soring, my fingers just had to hit the keys again!
This is pure and simple, bashing a discipline you do not understand, and in fact, being quite ignorant about some techniques used to get the bIg Lick.
Yup, a horse moving out, flicking those front feet high, rocked back to avoid that laminitic pain in those front feet, is just moving so much better then any pleasure horse.
Just galloped my pleasure horse out over the snowy fields this afternoon, doing flying lead changes-how did your horse ride?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

boots said:


> When my kids wanted to show *I was willing* to tell them "no" to WP and HUS.
> 
> Now that mine are grown and two of three are involved in functional areas of the horse industry, the third only riding when I need a hand, I find many other ways to support better riding.
> 
> ...


How about also working on having HYpp pos horses ineligible for registration
I had a different rule for my kids-no gymkana, esp before you learn correct equitation and have good hands
THe AQHA ,like any registry, has to make policies,according to membership vote 
They have no legal clout. You must re-call the law suit that occurred, when embryo transfer first was possible. At the time, AQHA allowed only one foal per year to be registered from a mare. Well, all at once these big Cutting breeders had several foals by one mare, and wanted them all eligible for registration. A law suit happened, AQHA lost, costing them plenty.
Surely you understand how a registry works?
Better campaign also, as to how those rope horses are jerked into the ground, suddenly,
Sour grapes, usually occur, concerning western pl, because those people are unable to rate a horse on a loose rein, and somehow think a horse moving a long at some schooling show or 4H level of western pl, is somehow superior
They then try to find every bad example that they can, and completely ignor trying to become more educated,actually taking some judging clinics, just bashing what they don't understand.
I;m not someone ;that is a buckle bunny', only having ridden some trained pleasure horse, maintained by a trainer , down the rail, but some one who has ridden and trained horses in several disciplines, plus has extensively trail ridden

I have taken many judging clinics, taken part in Horse improvement evaluation show, so I think I know a little more as to what is involved in training a good western pleasure horse
Right now,all my horses, including my show horses,a re out all winter in the snow. I ride my pleasure horse just out now, across snowy fields, and except for them being good movers, I dare you to even recognize they can move like a pleasure horse when asked to
How about taking severe bits and tie downs off of polo horses, allowing no bats for games horses,and no spurring, where you can see air between the rider's legs and the horse. !


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> Ah, western pleasure. Even with as many problems as I have with my horses, I can always feel good in the fact that they don't move LIKE THAT. Kind of like, no matter how bad your life is, there is always somebody worse off that you are. So yeah, my horses might be wild out of their skin for not being worked all winter, but at least they don't move LIKE THAT.
> 
> So yeah, I totally believe it is the boiled frog principle. They have been boiling for so long, they don't even know it. (It's amazing sometimes what people can't see).
> 
> ...


Yep, I saw him too. Kept looking for him. Too bad we don't know the placings.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I am going to be busy tomorrow, getting a turkey ready to eat, that has been living in my freezer for a year,thus won't have time to read and reply to all the 'informed comments'
Therefore, Boots, and some others, I am leaving you with some food for thought, given to me by a reining trainer, some years ago, when I was showing reining and working cowhorses
At the time, I was complaining as to how halter horses no longer reflected future athletic ability.
No what his answer was? Well, I will fill you in!
he told me if I bred like to like, did not breed out to halter horses,what did it matter, as it would not affect me
He told me if those people just wanted to lead and feed those horses, they had every right to do so, just like any one of us had the right to pursue any discipline
Thus, I try never to start a thread, bashing some discipline,but I'm sure as hell going to respond when a discipline, and the horses I love,are attacked, often by people nor where near even qualified to judge. Yup, I am then human enough to find faults in other disciplines, and counter attack
People like Cheri, although not involved in western pl, have the horse experience to give at least a fair opinion. That does not apply to many that are most vocal here, on the subject
If I sound bitter, so be it. 
I read many posts here, by people I darn well know have horses not near as broke, doing what my horses do, yet feel justified in knocking a discipline, thinking thsoe show ring expectations are the only way a pleasure horse can move, when I have posted enough pictures riding those horse out, the fact that they also win in trail and western riding, have shown then successfully OPEN AGAINST ALL BREEDS IN ENGLISH PLEASURE< JUDGED BY AN ENGLISH JUDGE
Yup, I am cranky, an dam going to bed. If I lost friends here, so be it, but I have always felt the need to speak for what i believe in.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Trailrider, you can hardly get your horse ridden on a trail, yet are self qualified to judge western pleasure. Unbelieveable!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> All my fiance's horses trail ride and they were all trained for barrels. even the 30 year old tb. His worst offence is his wanna be Dressage act on the trails (he has a kick butt passage. HE even has the skill of cantering in place as well). With the way western pleasure is going i would show in it. My fiance's paint has an amazing slow jog that he can do naturally without training. And i am glad i have been seeing improvement in WP. I have seen a positive movement in alot of western shows since the introduction of the Ranch horse classes (Ranch horse conformation, Ranch horse under saddle and Working Ranch Horse.). I see alot more aplea in the Ranch horse Classes as i feel its their way of taking a few steps back to basics.
> 
> This is Odies trot. he can go from sport horse to WP in a few strides on his own.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LwyyxPRrYc


 Sorry, did not see that. Just see a horse trotting, strung out. A western pl jog has cadence, flat kneed and slow legged. Western pl experts just coming out of the wood work!


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

I honestly feel like this thread could have been informative. 

It could have been : Is this something that WP riders look for, how do they train, what is acceptable and what isn't... etc etc.

Instead it's turned in to a bun fight of "WP IS MEAN" "NO ITS NOT" "YES IT IS".

I have VERY little idea about WP. I'd much prefer to learn about it and understand rather than watch a video.

I love dressage.

Cross country gives me the heebi jeebis and I certainly cannot understand why anyone would go at speed towards solid fences. Do I rant and rave about it? No. I try and find out the training these horses and riders go in to to prepare for it, how they keep their horses fresh and fit and well minded.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Sorry, did not see that. Just see a horse trotting, strung out. A western pl jog has cadence, flat kneed and slow legged. Western pl experts just coming out of the wood work!



I think that's a bit off base. Kiger was trying to be supportive of you by saying she'd like to try doing WP, and you seem to be mocking her.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

It is perfectly fair to ask why a certain discipline considers a certain , seemingly artificial movement, appealing. This can be asked of Big Lick, saddle seat, paso finds, dressage, HUS. No discipline is sacrosanct . This is a horse forum , so discussion of our opinions is what it's about. Personal insults are another story altogether, but if one expresses distain or bewilderment regarding the videos that purport to show champion WP , that does not mean it just all out bashing


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

I'm not saying that the original question wasn't valid, I think it's digressed massivley however.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Smilie said:


> Sorry, did not see that. Just see a horse trotting, strung out. A western pl jog has cadence, flat kneed and slow legged. Western pl experts just coming out of the wood work!


Why would you attack someone trying to add to your stance? Not every WP horse is at the World level, nor should they have to be. That's just silly.

My horse isn't going to beat your horses, but we can certainly go out locally and have fun, even pick up checks in Thoroughbred Western Pleasure, Horsemanship, and Trail classes that are getting more popular. He's just a handy horse.

https://www.instagram.com/p/82gUrMPB-A/?taken-by=elirose17

Disclaimer before I get jumped: Yes yes the reins are too short, they were brand new and I hadn't had the time to oil them. Big guy also had an hour long chiro adjustment the next day and was very sore at the time.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Um wow. People like you are why i dont WANT to show western pleasure most of the time. I think about it but then i get a snide remark from people who DO show it. I have nicer people in an open halter ring when my arab was up against stock horses. at least those people compliment me on my non-spooky well behaved arabian.

And i dont think his trot is too bad considering he is green underweight and under muscled, raised in a stall and has never lived in turnout (meaning he never got to be a horse). he knows how to walk trot and lope, stop and back up. that's it, nothing else, not finished. he hardly even lunges. 

I have been debating on weather i should use him as a hunter or a all round western horse with some western pleasure training. Guess i won't be going that route since the expert does not like his trot.

On a serious note i would honestly like to know why the overly slow gait is preferred. I understand being a nice slow willing pleasurable mount. But why not have an faster/extended gait? why such a low head carriage? these are honest questions and i would appreciate if they were answered without someone getting overly defensive and their feathers ruffled.

Ruffled feathers leads to closed threads and no one learning ANYTHING! Why answer a question if you are going to get defensive anyway? or go after the people trying to see your side of things.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> to elaborate on trail riding itself, I know darn well that Cheri could ride any trail I ride, but I very much doubt, she would take any dude string riders on the trails I ride with my husband, who is atrophy hunter. Certainly, you never, ever see any organized trail rides on those hunting trails, nor even the average recreational rider.
> few riders climb above the tree line, on frozen steep trails with sheer drop offs.
> Takes a different degree of trail riding, to have a horse, negotiating those steep trails, where any spook, stall out can mean disaster, or even a mis step for that matter
> You need a horse 'more broke, then one just fitting into a dude string, and then it does matter, if that horse blows his mind, crossing a bog, climbing an icy steep trail, where a stall can mean a horse slipping backwards, as in that example of "Un branded'


You're right, I probably wouldn't go on those trails. Not because I don't trust my horse and where she puts her feet. But rather I am absolutely terrified of heights and would prefer to not go to some crazy high peak to prove a point.

I am rather shocked you bashed on Kigerqueen when she was trying to side with you. You are essentially doing to the rest of us what you think everyone is doing to you.

If the chance presented itself I'd take a crack at riding WP, but I'm also not going to seek out a chance to do it. I've ridden a few different Paso Finos because the opportunity presented itself. I rode my best friend's Half Arabian English Pleasure horse and had a heck of a time on her. But I didn't seek either of them out nor were they really planned. Totally spur of the moment.

Izzie trail rides, does Dressage, and plenty of rail classes (Arabian classes). She also will pack my kids back from a halter class (where she essentially be snorting and blowing and totally unmanageable if we're going with stereotypes here) and show in leadline with the kids directly after showing Native Costume.

But you're right. Man, I should really train her better so we can scale tall mountains together. Seems that's the only way to prove a horse's worth to you.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I think this has been a very useful debate. I think it shows just how unpopular slow footed WP really is. This is why I got the phone calls I did from AQHA back in the late 90s and 2000s. This is why big shows had WP classes go from 80 entries down to 10 or 15. This is why horse shows shrunk in size in both halter and judged western classes after the 'all-around' horses and natural moving western horses disappeared. Casual show goers and recreational riders stayed away from the QH shows in droves as did trainers and riders that had shown stock horses in halter and pleasre. Instead, they flooded the Stock Horse, Ranch Horse and Foundation Horse shows where the all-around horse still ruled. These people (myself included) just stayed away from QH shows in droves. 

Cutters, reiners and cowhorse people stayed away (unless they went enough AQHA Shows to qualify for the World). They just showed at the NCHA, NRHA and NRCHA shows. When the QH shows faltered is when the NRCHA grew and became a huge force. This led to AQHA approving 'events' if they included AQHA classes at their shows. Most of the World Show qualifiers now get their AQHA points at non-AQHA shows. 

AQHA has tried every way they could to get their 'old' show base back. Adding the 'Ranch Horse' division is their most recent ploy and is going to be their most successful. As a matter of fact, their 'rules' are copied almost word for word out of the Foundation Registry Rule Book.

There are people that hate the 'slow-footed' WP and people just love it. There are people that hate Ranch Pleasure. Neither is 'right ' or 'wrong'. They are just different styles and different events. While the slow styled WP has its advocates, about 10X a many people (some very good horsemen among them) prefer the ranch style movement and still like the all-around horses that were so popular before the specialty classes took over. Those percentages hold up here as well.

It is not a matter of right or wrong. It is totally senseless to try to 'convert' people. It is totally senseless to try to argue why you like one or the other. The people that have a low opinion of the slow-footed horses are still going to hate that 'look'. The people that only think a natural moving horse looks good are going to continue thinking so. It is what it is.

I do think this has been a valuable thread in that it explains the difference to a lot of people that did not live through this transition from normal movement to super-slow movement and now back to natural movement. One is just not better than the other. People just have their preference and are going to keep it. People that do not like one style or the other are not incompetent or trying to 'judge' it. They just simply do not like it. They have a preference for a different style. It is like arguing whether Saddle Seat or Hunt Seat is better. Is green a better color than red? Same thing.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

This is an article that was on a forum dedicated to western pleasure. It shows that there is full knowledge that drastic change is needed. I found that the fact that this was an article by the forum, not just members, spoke volumes.

I am not anti western pleasure. I have spent too much of my life in a western saddle to not feel that the movements, however, have been trained to the extremes as a "one upsmanship" kind of training. I would not want my mountain horses or working hoeses moving like that, so what really is the point?


The article;



> Western Pleasure: It’s Time To Move Forward And Straighten Things Out
> March 12th, 2015 10:25 AM | 28 Comments
> 1.4K
> Originally appearing in March 2015 issue of Show Horse Today
> ...


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Love it. I am so happy that respected professionals like Tom Chown are finally addressing the 800 # gorilla in the room. The thing that has made AQHA address it has been the declining numbers of people willint o participate in it.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

WestCoasted said:


> *What are you willing to do?*


I personally no longer show Western Pleasure. When I teach WP or showmanship to my lesson kids I promote the good aspects of these disciplines and inform them of the debatable sides. My kids know that while they CAN get a 'peanut' pusher they need to ask "SHOULD I?". They know how to collect a WP horse and go into a western pleasure class, but they also know how to move that horse out into a more 'ranch horse' form. 

When I had a quarter horse and was a member of AQHA I signed petitions, went to meetings, endorsed trainers who had the same view I had. I do believe that the 'problem' with western pleasure. (And I don't mean a problem in the discipline itself but a problem in the 'bad' riding) is very ingrained. At this point I think the change has to come from an up and coming generation of riders and judges. It's a lot like Saddleseat. All the old timers had this notion that the flashiest, highest stepping horse wins, and there will be no restrictions on how to obtain that. 

Then over time when my generation and younger generation became judges and trainers we started to dismantle that. It no longer became the highest stepping horse wins but more about collection, technique and conformation. The discipline still has it's problems but it's taken a few leaps and bounds because trainers showed a better scheme to their riders. 



Smilie said:


> Thus, I try never to start a thread, bashing some discipline,but I'm sure as hell going to respond when a discipline, and the horses I love,are attacked, often by people nor where near even qualified to judge. Yup, I am then human enough to find faults in other disciplines, and counter attack
> People like Cheri, although not involved in western pl, have the horse experience to give at least a fair opinion. That does not apply to many that are most vocal here, on the subject
> If I sound bitter, so be it.
> I read many posts here, by people I darn well know have horses not near as broke, doing what my horses do, yet feel justified in knocking a discipline, thinking thsoe show ring expectations are the only way a pleasure horse can move, when I have posted enough pictures riding those horse out, the fact that they also win in trail and western riding, have shown then successfully OPEN AGAINST ALL BREEDS IN ENGLISH PLEASURE< JUDGED BY AN ENGLISH JUDGE
> Yup, I am cranky, an dam going to bed. If I lost friends here, so be it, but I have always felt the need to speak for what i believe in.


Smilie I don't think a lot of us are bashing western pleasure. I know I personally am not. I show western pleasure in Morgans, I've shown it in Quarter Horses, I've shown it locally and at circuit shows. 

I think western pleasure has a lot of good points. It focuses on collection, on control and posture. It helped me a lot with riding other disciplines because I could have a dressage horse or park horse that would be able to go, compete and win, but also had the ability to collect down and really listen to the rider. My park horse riders have 100% control over my park horses because I've taught them things I've learned from western pleasure and held them to certain standards. 

The issue I see in the discipline is that we're getting away from these good points slowly. I have seen and been in classes where the slowest horse has won the class, not because they were the best but simply because they were slow. I've had these peanut pushers come in with no brain, completely soured and really inept to do any other work outside of go slow around an arena. 

Am I saying that this is the norm of western pleasure? No. Not at all. This is just a few bad eggs. 

The sad part is that these few bad eggs are creating a bad image of our discipline. When people who are not involved with western pleasure see the bad eggs they get thrown away from the discipline. It's a lot like Saddle Seat. The people who have sored and hyped up their horses have made others who wanted to try the discipline out, turn away from it and wonder 'what's the reason'? 

I know I would be fine with 'peanut pushers' if in the class they added in an extended jog and extended lope, (and of course held a true headset). 

In short this has been a useful debate, and I really don't think it was anyone's intention to bash this discipline. Different strokes for different folks y'know? Its great that you like the horses like that its great that I like them a bit more out. Doesn't mean I hate the discipline, just means I like a different style in it.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't think you have to be an experienced rider to recognize that something looks wrong if you are a person who spends a lot of time appreciating all that's right/beautiful/useful/natural in the way a horse moves. Horses can leap, twist, turn, change leads, perform all sorts of acrobatic feats at liberty - we as riders just harness all that talent

I don't think that we need to be told that the piaffe seen in the dressage ring is achieved from years of hard work and training - but anyone who has an athletic horse with the ability from breeding knows that training is just drawing on their natural talents. Horses can leap, twist, turn, change leads, perform all sorts of acrobatic feats at liberty - we as riders just harness and refine it

If someone is using good training methods to produce a horse that will work so slowly and so low then kudos to them if they can see a point in it but when breeders are producing horses that are starting to look deformed so they can work like it more easily just to satisfy a fashion in the show ring then that's wrong
When you consider that the AQH was bred for speed over a short distance and toughness and agility the WP classes seem like a complete opposite to that as they prove nothing at all to support what the horse is supposed to be about
Why treat such a versatile breed that way? They can turn a hoof to pretty much anything


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

DuffyDuck said:


> I honestly feel like this thread could have been informative.
> 
> It could have been : Is this something that WP riders look for, how do they train, what is acceptable and what isn't... etc etc.
> 
> ...


This subject has been beaten into the ground, and unfortunately you rarely see it take a good turn. I am glad at the end here, this one seems to be doing better.

I remember my first western pleasure horse that I rode. He was awesome. His name was Zippin Charmer and he would just flow. A rather wealthy woman bought him from a renowned trainer around here and used him as a trail horse because her back was bad. When she needed help, she called me - And I rode him for her for about a year or two after that every weekend. 

He could do that slow crawl gait like the best of them. I thought it was fun to ride - But when I asked, he would run. No hesitation.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I hate a lot of barrel racing practices. However that doesn't mean I don't barrel race. It means i have to pose an example of how I think we should ride, and there's a couple girls I call my friends who agree with me - Between us, the local girls have almost abolished flopping around, excessive kicking and whipping, and have gained body control of their horses instead. It all started before I knew i wanted to train. I have a friend who rides just like me, but she's older. We learned from the same people growing up and spent a lot of time together. 

One day at a show, some lady came up and said "I love how your horse runs. You always seem so with her. How did you teach that?"

Instead of getting up on her "I'm better than you" high horse, my friend just smiled and said, "I could show you if you wanted."

A couple years later, that girl rides a lot differently than she used to, and she is one of our good friends.


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## Spec (Jun 13, 2015)

Bondre said:


> But I can't for the earth justify the hoots of appreciation and enthusiasm for a horse that looks like it's about to stall out and fall on its face.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I'm sorry your impression of western pleasure has been like that.


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## Spec (Jun 13, 2015)

I've been following this debate because it interests me. I have so much respect for anyone who gets on the back of a 1000 lb animal and teaches it spin, piaffe, cut a cow, drive in a team, run fast, jump, _and move beautifully and gracefully, even slowly_
I love WP, and all western disciplines for that matter. That being said, I do NOT get offended when people bash WP. I know where your opinion is coming from, because I see it too. I think it is important to realize, though, that every individual in pleasure (as with any discipline) breeds, trains, and rides differently. There _is_ a good side, believe it or not. 
There are many pleasure breeders who are adamant about producing nothing short of excellent (conformation-wise) and know that many of those horses will have a life way beyond show pen and need to be sound, sane, and versatile. There are many pleasure trainers who refuse to start a leggy two-year-old and do not cut corners or force a horse into anything unnatural for their build. There are many judges who see right through the artificial training, shortcuts, and gaudy outfits, and really appreciate a real, good pleasure horse. 
I really wish people would see the good side of WP like I and many others do, but unfortunately it is crapped on by watered down trainers, shallow judges, irresponsible breeders, and riders who would be better off riding a stick horse. :icon_rolleyes:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

SorrelHorse said:


> Between us, the local girls have almost abolished flopping around, excessive kicking and whipping....



You mean like this?











Gotta give that rider credit though, quite the display of flexibility! :wink:


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## tjtalon (Apr 26, 2013)

I appreciate the information from Allison Finch & Cherie. I've been following the thread, as I like to really learn (for real).

I too have never understood the slow, whipped-dog-going thing, but I wanted to know WHY, & those above mentioned have provided that information.

Looking forward to actually LEARNING more (as I have studying what TWH horses have gone though)...although I do actually understand the sniping whatever that has gone on (turn off as that may be). Hot subject...

Rather glad that this thread didn't get off'd...


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Yes, this tends to be more of our riding posture around here. Lol


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

^^^^Beautiful!


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I LOVE IT! THAT is making a change in your discipline! Its like halter horses and lip chains. every stud i have ever handled NEVER needed a stud chain. why on earth would you need a lip chain for a stock horse, especially mares and geldings? I have used a stud chain on a friends gelding in the show but it was inactive and not in his mouth. 

Showing in ALL disciplines has gone off into left field i think. even arabian halter shows/horses. Some of the extreme halter horses look like aliens. Same for the stock halter horses too. floppy riders in speed events, penutrollers, Hyperflexing behind the vertical, unethical training and shoeing practices, the list goes on.

My friend who grew up showing english has never shown western untill last year. She has a beautiful paint she when she did show she ended up showing in 5 classes (not including me showing him halter first). he did fantastic considering he had never been shown ethier. it was an open show and a bit more forgiving. She LOVED it! he placed in working ranch, equitation and 2 Western pleasure classes as well as halter.

I would show Odie at open or pinto shows (fiance sees no point in registered horses so never sent in his paper work to the APHA. so odie is now a grade). I would show him in english pleasure, sport horse in hand and western pleasure. I think he has the talent for it. he can slow down his jog slower than in the vid. he can crawl if he wants and he dose that all on his own. no training (did i mention this horse is just broke enough to ride on the trail? i dont think he even side passes.)


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

tjtalon said:


> I appreciate the information from Allison Finch & Cherie. I've been following the thread, as I like to really learn (for real).
> 
> I too have never understood the slow, whipped-dog-going thing, but I wanted to know WHY, & those above mentioned have provided that information.
> 
> ...


it IS possible to hold a discussion on a practice in the horseshow world, without it becoming a witch hunt.


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## tjtalon (Apr 26, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> it IS possible to hold a discussion on a practice in the horseshow world, without it becoming a witch hunt.


This is good to know...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

It is possible, when people outside a discipline, actually try to understand another discipline, and far as western pl, if you don't like it a upper end, then don't ride in it. There now are western pleasure classes with less degree of difficulty, and show western dressage so show in them
There is a need for both the speciality horse, and the more all a round horse. Ranch horse caters to those that just want a good using horse, and that is great, but why harp on the western pleasure specialist
Ranch horse pleasure, is not the only thing keyed down in Ranch horse competition, as ranch cutting sure is not at the same level as open cutting.
Nothing wrong with that, allowing people to use their horses as they like, as long as there is no abuse, and I can assure you, I, and many others train a pleasure horse using a plain snaffle, seat , legs and feel
Beauty is also in the eyes of the beholder> A nice western pl horse, moving flat kneed,, slow legged and correct on a loose rein, hardly looks like a whipped dog

Showring exhibits degree of difficulty,Any horse, with a decent mind, decent training can perform all three gaits, get leads, ect at that level.You don't separate horses at that level by blown gaits, chargy way of going, ect.
It is also easy for any horse to perform a three beat lope, moving on. That is kindergarten
When a horse is slowed either beyond his ability or training, to keep a true three beat lope, that second beat( I assume everyone here actually knows how to count beats, and their order in that three beat lope), that second beat breaks down into two, thus the 4th beat,and why those horse loping true and slow, are a class above.
I posted some videos on western pl judging, so anyone here, that wants to actually try to learn (you know, you get that learning by actually going to judge
ing seminars
Because western pleasure horses in the showring,are asked for that degree of difficulty, anyone not educated to really evaluating true movement, bash pleasure horses.
If those horses weren't using their hocks very engaged, many pleasure horses would not need hock injections, same as reiners and dressage horses
Sorrel horse, your horses seem to be running happy, and yes, I know it can be done,a si used to run games,m and in fat have Regional ApHC hi pt year end in games, and a national Championship in flag picking
I also know some western pl horses , are not trained correctly, same as you know and must admit, seeing games horses, refusing to enter the arena, rearing, because they have learned to associate running with pain. I know you are knowledgeable enough, to know many games horses are jerked and spurred, rather than guided, with severe bits , including bicycle chain mouth pieces
I see those games horses all the time, but because they are running, no audience outcry at the bad games horses
This is not any attempt to prove any discipline better then another, but asking for equal respect, and for people to actually understand why upper pleasure horses move as they do, for degree of difficulty. They are not whipped, but happy horses, the ones I know anyways> They are also great movers, because they day the western pl was just an entry level class , and quality of movement did not count, are gone
If you don't like how that degree of difficulty is exhibited, don't show western pleasure, don't breed to western pleasure horses, afterall, I don't breed to a cowhorse, to get a western pleasure horse, even though I have some of those, from my reining/working cowhorse days
Show the kind of horse, where you want, and with a ranch horse pleasure, western dressage, open schooling shows, there are many places to show a western pleasure horse that does not need the degree of training or ability of an upper western pleasure horse.

Catch words for an English sale horse add, seems to be, has three good gaits, auto changes
Well, a good western pl horse is described as deep hocked, flat kneed and slow legged
No, those horses don't look like your local 4H horses going around, or those open shows, nor even breed Arabian or Morgan,as expectations to self carriage movement are greater. If you don't like it, understand it, then don't watch it, own one or ride one, but be a horseman'woman enough to admit, that maybe you don't know it all, and a few judging seminars, taking in some western pleasure clinics, might actually broaden your horse knowledge and judging ability
I have ridden and showed reiners, working cowhorses have run games, done cattle penning, shown trail, western riding, ridden some extreme trails, Bighorn sheep hunting, shown geldings , stallions and mares, so perhaps, give me some credit when I tell you that an upper western pl horse is far from a whipped dog, just because you don't understand it, nor bothered to
Do you just expect me to sit back and let you bash a discipline, because of un informed prejudice ?
Seems western pleasure is the witch hunt and free for all!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, we also raised cowhorsess. My son, below


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, we also raised cowhorsess. My son, below


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

lovely pics^


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

"give me some credit when I tell you that an upper western pl horse is far from a whipped dog, just because you don't understand it, nor bothered to" quote to Smilie.


well, I was trying to understand it, and it's appeal. what you do and what I see on videos seem to be a bit far apart. I admit ignorance, that's why I am asking to hear why , and for jsut what reason, it's so appealing to others. It LOOKS as it does to me. i am depending on the knowledgeable persons to explain , for example, why extreme slowness is so valued. no other discipline values a horse that is as slow as possible. cant you see how that has got to be baffling to an outsider?


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

For the love of everything, we get it. Do you not get that no one is attacking or your horses, while you insist on attacking everyone else and their horses - INCLUDING OTHER WP RIDERS!!

Do you not see the problem, and idk, maybe why people are turned off by breed showing in general?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Yes! We get it. We get that your horses are more versatile and more useful while most WP horses are not. We get that you like WP as a discipline. We get that it is difficult to train a horse to work at that level. 

We are not all ignorant and uneducated about it. WE JUST PLAIN DON'T LIKE IT!!! It is not our thing.

Tom Chown gets it. Did you read his article?

AQHA even gets it or they would not have been calling everyone that quit showing and moved on to other associations and show circuits. If they didn't 'get it', I would not have gotten half a dozen phone calls from them. They would not have started new classes and a whole new division to try to get some of their member 'back'.

I was showing almost every horse I trained in WP. All the professional trainers did before we went on to reining, Western Riding, trail, cattle classes or whatever. In the late 70s, this became impossible when Impressive changed the face of halter. WP became its own discipline with big futurities and big purses. At that point it became a discipline. Peanut rollers and 4 beaters started winning and most of us quit showing WP. We just plain didn't like it. Impressive did more to fragment the breed into 5 different directions that any other single thing. 
All of the BNT that had been training and showing All-Around horses picked the event they liked best or had the most clients interested in. I went toward reining and cattle classes and never showed another WP class. My neighbor, Jerry Wells went to all halter horses. Matlock Rose went back to cutting. Gil and Jody Galyean had been training All-Around horses. Gill went to WP and Jody went to Cutting. We all went a different direction, most away from WP and it became one of the smallest classes at a show.

You can go to a huge show like the World in OKC and when the practice ring is full of WP horses getting ready to go over to the Colosseum or the pleasure judging is going on in the Colosseum, the stands are empty. People come in and watch the horses for a minute or two and they are literally revulsed, make a quick exit and do not even want to watch them work or show. They are all shaking their heads and mumbling about how awful it looks. This is the reaction they get from horsemen and visitors alike. This is why the stands are empty for the pleasure classes and full for the reiners and for the cattle classes. Most people just plain don't like it, even when they understand what the goal is and understand how difficult it is. Even respected professionals like Tom Chown get it.

The last time I stayed around to watch some of them, I saw the same thing I see in the U-tube videos of the top horses. I saw many horses that went so slow that they looked completely artificial and really looked like they were crippled, particularly at the lope. While they were not 4 beating, their gaits looked completely artificial. One of the worst things I keep seeing over and over is horses that are traveling 'canted'. Many are traveling very crooked. Their hind ends are a horse width or even more to the inside of the ring. 

Most high level trainers train horses to do a lead departure by pushing a horse's hind quarters to the inside and teaching them to strike off in the lead hind end first with their heads down. This keeps horses from trying to 'lift' their front ends and 'hop' into a lead. But, as soon as the horse learns to keep his front end down and always strike off hind end first, it is our goal to get them to do a lead departure as straight as possible and to lope with their bodies straight. Many high level WP horses, even at the big AQHA shows, DO NOT lope completely straight and lope artificially slow. 

The bottom line is that a whole lot of true and educated horsemen do not like the way WP horses are being shown and judged. It is simply a matter of taste. 

I'm done with this one.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

What I don't understand is AQHA has rules and regulations regarding the extremes.
The judges say they don't approve of it.
The trainers and professional riders say they don't approve of it.
Many spectators say they don't approve of it.

Who does?


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Woodhaven said:


> Who does?


That is a very good question.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I want to end this on a good note for myself. Here's AQHA's definition of western pleasure, I have paraphrased for length's sake but you can follow the link to read it in it's entirety: "*(a) A good pleasure horse has a free-flowing stride of reasonable length in keeping with his conformation*.*..... Ideally, he should have a balanced, flowing motion, while exhibiting correct gaits that are of the proper cadence. The quality of the movement and the consistency of the gaits is a major consideration...with his poll level with or slightly above the level of the withers. He should not carry his head behind the vertical, His head should be level with his nose slightly in front of the vertical, He should be shown on a reasonably loose rein, but with light contact and control.* * Maximum credit should be given to the flowing, balanced and willing horse that gives the appearance of being fit and a pleasure to ride......**Penalized Faults: Excessive speed (any gait)**Excessive slowness in any gait, loss of forward momentum (resulting in an animated and/or artificial gait at the lope)** Head carried too high* *(8)** Head carried too low (tip of ear below the withers**..... horse appears sullen, dull, lethargic, emaciated, drawn or overly tired (15) Quick, choppy or pony-strided**(16) If reins are draped to the point that light contact is not maintained.**(l) Faults that will be cause for disqualificatio**(1) Head carried too low (tip of ear below the withers consistently)"
*Here's the Morgan Horse Association's Western Pleasure standard. I know that these are two very different breeds (a Morgan being more 'up' and forward than a Quarter Horse) but as the discipline is striving for the same basics I'm going to consider just the GAITS and CADENCE and JUDGING CRITERIA: 

*"Light, calm contact with the rein is absolutely paramount in the presentation. A judge must severely penalize presentations which include: long, loose, draped reins;of symmetry with balance in the arrangement of the parts relative to the conformation........The head carriage will vary from individual to individual. It should never be exaggerated to allow the perfect body balance.........**The Walk should be elastic and ground-covering, with a four-beat balanced cadence. The Jog Trot is a two-beat gait that is free, slow and with cadence and balance, without mixing gaits. The Lope should be smooth, slow and straight, with a three-beat cadence. The Extended Jog should be energetic, balanced, and ground covering with a definite lengthening of stride, resulting in an increase of speed without a sense of racing Extreme speed SHALL be penalized."*
While I am not a fan of the 'peanut pushers' and I just mean that descriptively, I realize that others enjoy that style of horse. My issue is that the rules (to my knowledge) have not been changed to fit that standard. Thus judges are placing horses who are clearly violating everything that western pleasure 'is' to place these horses. I feel that if your going to judge by a new standard, you need to change the rule book. 

All that being said I said I wanted to end this on a good note so I'm going to provide two videos of western pleasure that show the good points of both breeds and styles. For me personally I enjoy watching a Morgan Western pleasure class. I personally have not felt that any horses were judged on slowness or head position alone, I also personally feel that it represents on a gait and cadence level (and judging level) what AQHA western pleasure used to be. Which for me is why I switched over and stopped showing AQHA (as I believe many others did as well). 

That being said, I will recommend that EVERYONE go try out a good western pleasure horse. They are exceptional animals and the discipline might look easy but it's very hard to train and ride correctly. Western pleasure horses no matter the breed really are a pleasure to ride (and about as smooth as gaited horses! ;-) ) There are good and bad points to these videos but it just boils down to what an individual likes. 

1)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yP1egescmw
2)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QdpyNFOxQU

AQHA rules: http://services2.aqha.com/iphonedev/www/sections/sectionIV/rules/464-483/465b.html
AMHA rules: https://www.morganhorse.com/upload/photos/2692014JudgingStandards_WEB.pdf

*Just to add a disclaimer. I am in no way attacking or 'bashing' any individual, discipline or style. I am trying to convey my own personal feelings and ideas on what western pleasure should be, as well as promote it as a discipline that people should try. If anyone feels this post is attacking I want to apologize as that was not my intention.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I said I wasn't coming back but I will try to explain WHY.

Fist of all, the modern WP look is NOT going to go away. There are now trainers, many of them young and new enough, that have grown up in this style, and specialize in WP. There are now breeders that breed specifically for the slow-footed horses and the 'look'. AQHA is not going to 'kill' their industry. They register horses, they advertise in the journal, they have their 'niche' and AQHA is not going to kill it just like they are not going to 'kill' halter horses that carrying one copy of the HYPP gene. It would put too many people out of business. That would be bad for AQHA.

Secondly, as I said earlier, most of the trainers are also judges and most of the judges are trainers. Even when the written rules change, it is to their advantage to judge horses the way they show them. They also know that 'paybacks are hell'. What they give to other judges showing in the ring is what they will receive when they are showing. For this reason alone, change has been very slow.

So what they decided to do is bring back the 'old' style pleasure horse and the all-around horse (because of popular demand) by adding the Ranch division. That way the people that hate modern WP and other slow western classes can do 'their thing' and the people that have been complaining and leaving for other associations for the last 35 years can now do 'their thing' at AQHA Shows. 

So, AQHA is the winner. All-around horses and versatility trainers are winners. The Foundation Associations and possibly the ranch horse associations will be the losers. WP trainers will still have their clients and classes. Now, when we come upon WP horses and training methods, we can be happier knowing that there is a whole show division that we like and can enjoy. 

So, no one should feel like they have to 'convert' someone or 'make' them like their way. It has been like politics; Horsemen had to vote one way or the other. Now it is like both sides can win the election and can be happy instead of there being a need to convert someone. 

That's how I see it, anyway. Cherie


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Sorry for the crappy font in my post. I have no idea how that happened and my attempts to fix have failed!!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Bottom line, one can look at any discipline and find negatives, and that is a fact.
IF YOU DONT LIKE IT< DON"T SHOW THERE.

I do attend equine seminars, where professionals,like vets, give presentations.
One presentation this year, was on aggressive riding. The horse that were studied, were gymkana horses. Stress indicators were used, as how that horse reacted coming in, number of body languages like head tossing , tail wringing, ect
Yes, I used to run games, and yes, I know that some here, as they also have posted pics, have barrel horses that are trained first, run without fear, ride out ect, but that does not mean I, or many like gymkana in general, and I also could post lots of pictures of gymkana horses not happy. 
Want to go on bashing, well that becomes a two way street.
I get it that you don't like western pleasure, so why in the hell, not do just your own thing, and perhaps look what is wrong in all aspects of the horse industry-like most of the race horses, run on lasix, because their lungs are never really conditioned, so they all become bleeders.
Some here, need to get out more, and get a view of the 'big picture'
God, even a reining trainer, once told me, when I complained about halter horses, asking me my it bothered me. He said that if I id not breed to halter horses, in order to get a performance horse, it did not impact me in the least
Maybe, instead of just worrying about rules, looking at vested interest, read some of the veterinary research and presentation, on competition horses in general
Now, if you want to cut down one segment of the horse industry, in a ll fairness, lets have a discussion as to what is wrong in all segments of the horse industry, instead of sitting on your 'virtual white horse, and we can have a balanced and fair discussion
I also get it that you don't like western, so can we get past that also.Thank you1


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Except this is a discussion on WP.

Btw, most racehorses are not bleeders and have never bled in their lives, it's just an excuse to use the "last performance enhancer" that hasn't been banned. Lasix is a diuretic to get the horses to drop excess water weight, and the US is the _only_ country to allow its race day usage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie - telling people to ignore or avoid this extreme WP style because they don't like it is like telling dressage people to ignore that discipline because they don't like Rolkurr - instead we made a lot of noise about it to see it banned
I also don't know why you keep defending your horses because they don't look at all like the sort of WP horses that we're questioning the purpose of
Compare yours to one that's far too low to be useful or to move properly.
I've also put one in of an AQH ridden in what I suppose would be called 'Hunt Seat' - but what on earth does a horse ridden in that frame have to do with fox hunting or even English riding?
And then there's the problem they create when they train these horses to spur stop...........


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, this is a discussion on western pl, because someone wanted to make it so.
Anyone can start a similar topic on any other discipline-great way to divide the horse community!
Far as the entire race horse thing, I know exactly what lasix does-yes it is a diuretic, meant to lower blood pressure, thus prevent those compromised lungs from bleeding. I attended an entire seminar, given by Dr Sid Gustavson on the ethical treatment of performance horses. He is also the official vet that looks into the welfare of racehorses, and teaches equine behavior courses
But lets get back tot he BIG PICTURE

The horse industry in general, has to support each other, not run different =segments down. Our true competitors are not other horse people, different disciplines, but the huge recreational market out there. The ATVs, ect.
By discussions like this one, bashing one discipline, all we are doing is hurting ourselves int he long run
We are past the Baby boomer age, who are mainly retired, Generation X, which came after, and even the generation beyond that, did not grow up with the Lone Ranger, Black Fury, BOnanza, , ect-they
grew up with transformers, Star Wars ect
Our market share is getting smaller, and by attacking various other disciplines, all we are doing in the end, is hurting the entire horse industry, and ourselves in the end.
THis topic has also been discussed, as a general open subject at many of these horse conferences, not by people with individual vested interest in various disciplines, by by the leaders of horse Industries in General, whoa re able to look at the big picture and not their narrow little mind field.
What is going on here, is exactly what they are campaigning against
I am a recreational rider also,and if you doubt the big voice of the ATV lobby, doubt no more! We in Alberta, still have areas of true wilderness, where access is only possible on foot or on a horse. I have attended many meetings , where there is a huge united strong lobby from the ATV community for more access.
meanwhile, the horse industry focuses on destroying each other
So, before your fingers set to typing, knocking a discipline, thinh=ka again as to what you really are doing tot he horse industry, versus your self righteous stance


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Yes, I used to run games, and yes, I know that some here, as they also have posted pics, have barrel horses that are trained first, run without fear, ride out ect, but that does not mean I, or many like gymkana in general, and I also could post lots of pictures of gymkana horses not happy.
> Want to go on bashing, well that becomes a two way street.


I feel like I have to repeat myself, even though you are a grown adult.

*Trying to alleviate the bashing from one discipline by bashing another is wildly unhelpful.*

To me, this is childish and I am not afraid to tell you that. If you wanted to inform about WP, and are so dang upset that someone else could think this about your discipline, WHY would you keep coming back and insisting another is horrible and just awful and you hate it SO MUCH just to prove your point?

We took this thread to an educational side, you seem to be determined to drag it back to the fire in which it brewed from. 

If you want people to understand, and you want to remove the stigma on WP, stick around and add some educational comments. If you don't, why are you here, quite frankly? We all get your point.

I'm with Cherie on this one. My post earlier was advocating for WP and stating that people in the horse industry should be allowed to have freedom to do as they wish - So it's not like we're even on different sides.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I surrender. I give up.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

So based on your logic Smilie I shouldn't condemn the use of Rolkurr in dressage or all the abuse seen in TWH horses and all the other bad stuff that goes on in the name of sport because by doing so I'm damaging the horse industry?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

SorrelHorse said:


> I feel like I have to repeat myself, even though you are a grown adult.
> 
> *Trying to alleviate the bashing from one discipline by bashing another is wildly unhelpful.*
> 
> ...


I agree, and sorry if I used gymkana as an example, as I know you and beau, like me, also do other things with your horses.
However, I could have started a post, showing a gymkana horse, rearing, refusing to enter for a run, to start a discussion, with the heading'where is the fun in this for the horse' that I;m sure, as already noted, would have you running to defend
Simply defending western pl, posting vidoes of expected ways of going, showing what is good and bad, fell on death ears, so where else did that leave me to go??????I should just meekly have agreed that all those horses are poor movers, beaten in submission, four beats and peanut rollers? That would have been okay-tight?
Yes, we are on the same side, and I thought your original post to be very reasonable. Too bad many here, some that don't even show, were not of a similar mind set, as these discussions then tend to go in the direction that this one has. It is human nature
On another board, I am talking with a recently graduated vet, who also happens to show AQHA western pl and HUS. She is looking for a good western pl /western riding sire, and I can assure you that her ideas on western pl horse sis completely different from many here.
because the majority of people here are not involved in western pl, want to ride working horses in pleasure classes, their view point is not without bias,
They have classes to ride in, for how they want a horse to 'ride pleasure, without being a pleasure horse per say' Why is that not enough?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

just wanted to put something positive in here. I applaud Smilie's efforts to keep ATV's out of wilderness areas. ATV's and Snowmobiles can shatter the wilderness atmosphere for miles around with the roar of their engines. Ive ridden both, and they are totally a hoot to ride, but they cannot be allowed in every corner they can reach.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Cherie said:


> I surrender. I give up.


Yes, lets just call a mutual surrender, as you want me to agree that all western pleasure horses at upper end are poor movers, and refuse to recognize the good ones, so how can I just bow my head and say, 'yup, absolutely right


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> just wanted to put something positive in here. I applaud Smilie's efforts to keep ATV's out of wilderness areas. ATV's and Snowmobiles can shatter the wilderness atmosphere for miles around with the roar of their engines. Ive ridden both, and they are totally a hoot to ride, but they cannot be allowed in every corner they can reach.


Thank you. Yes, there are areas , where they had access, that they have completely destroyed. A fun game seems to be, to try and roar up a steep slope, seeing how far you can get, before stalling out.
Yes, there are some responsible ATV riders, but unfortunately, too many of the other kind, where those ATVs are a chance to get out of thew city, tear up the wilderness and party.
Most horse people, pack out any garbage. Areas open to ATVs have the usual empty beer cans and other garbage.
How do you hit a wild horse at two in the morning, with an ATV, killing your passenger? Well, you party and then ride.
Then there are those trucks, outfitted with a snorkel, crossing rivers, tearing up those crossings. You see them parted later, at a bar in Sundre, covered in mud, top to bottom
We have some true wilderness left, but the likley hood of it being there for our grandchildren to enjoy, isd quickly disappearing
To be quick, before I am jumped on again, there are responsible ATV riders, that we meet in multi use areas, who will slow or even shut off their quad , when horses approach. I in no way wish to ban them from the access they now enjoy, but do believe some wilderness has to be left, where only a horse or your feet will let you explore it!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> So based on your logic Smilie I shouldn't condemn the use of Rolkurr in dressage or all the abuse seen in TWH horses and all the other bad stuff that goes on in the name of sport because by doing so I'm damaging the horse industry?


No, that was not my point Jaydee.
I would have been more open had some of the bad training used in western pleasure, been discussed,like to try and force a horse to become a pleasure horse, or by a trainer being forced by the owner, to meet expectations, in relationship to training fees spent, thus trying to make a pleasure horse out of one not suitable, using gadgets

Yes, I know some used head hanging, over night, there was the time blood letting was used by some of these unethical trainers, just like Rolkur was used by some noT all dressage trainers., like,according to a vet that regulates drugs used, dressage horses given cocaine, then shown when on a downer-we could have had an entire discussion of ethics in the horse industry!This hurts the bad trainers that are in every industry, but not any discipline as a whole, and the good conscientious horse owners in those disciplines, as winding up as colateral damage.
However, those verbal against western pl, just because that showring movement requires a horse to be able to move slow and correct,and thus that horse does not appear as he or other horses would, moving in pasture ect
, the assumption was made that ALL those horses in UPPER OPEN western pl, were hense poor moving intimidated horses, trained by people with no idea of impulsion, true beats in a lope, ect, and which I simply know is not true, just as you know all dressage horses are not trained with rolkur, all those games horses are not afraid to run, associating running with pain, all TW are not being sored-that was my entire point-some attempt to actually understand western pl, and not paint the entire discipline blck, just because they move slow and relaxed. sOME ATTEMPT AT WATCHING THOSE WESTERN PL JUDGING VIDEOS, actually trying to understand, with an open mind, verus just bashing in general, something you don't understand
At least, lets agree to disagree that there are good western pleasure horses, and not knock the entire discipline, just because they go different then you like ahorse to go-okay?


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Yes, lets just call a mutual surrender, as you want me to agree that all western pleasure horses at upper end are poor movers, and refuse to recognize the good ones, so how can I just bow my head and say, 'yup, absolutely right


Sigh

You refuse to see what we are saying, it seems. NO one is saying ALL WP horses are poor movers. What we are asking, and no one has answered, is WHY these movements are supposed to represent the epitome of western horse movement.

What has been pointed out, that seems to have raised your angst, is that AQHA HAS set some rules to govern the movements, yet many judges and trainers seem to be refusing to abide by these rules.

I see the photos of your horse, that you have posted, and I would point to your horse as what I would LOVE to see winning the WP classes. Lovely horse who seems to have really nice, and natural, movement.

This, however, is not what I often see at the highest show levels, or the videos I have seen of the big champs.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> What has been pointed out, that seems to have raised your angst, is that AQHA HAS set some rules to govern the movements, yet many judges and trainers seem to be refusing to abide by these rules.


I just recently read this: Might be appropriate for this "discussion".
GoHorseShow.com | 15 Questions You Always Wanted to Ask the Judge with Stephanie Lynn - GoHorseShow.com

Taking out a key area:



> *Question #6 – What about the horses that continue to win that do not perform the gaits correctly?*
> 
> A: APHA Director of Judges, Dave Dellin, answers this best, “I think the real key to understanding placings revolves around looking at the class as a whole, not judging a single horse’s performance and especially not picking out a negative fault of a single performance.”
> 
> ...


I agree that you still see "peanut rollers" and "4 beaters" winning at the big shows. But you have to keep in mind that a judge can only place horses based on the class in front of him/her. 

Yes, maybe that horse did have the poll below the withers. But maybe that horse had a better cadence then the horse that had the poll even with the withers and "scored better" that way, leaving that horse with an overall higher score and placing higher. Or maybe the horse that had the poll even with the withers broke gait twice, whereas the peanut roller did not.

Or maybe every horse in the class had their poll below the withers. One might say "_well disqualify the whole class!_" but it's not that simple sometimes. There are shows out there that *require* their judges to place 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. And there are some shows that will let you place on how you see fit; so if the judge didn't see a 1st place performance, they don't have to place a horse there. 

I agree that I don't like seeing peanut rollers continue to win classes. But you have to look at the entire class and the entire performance of everyone in that class. Maybe the peanut roller winner had a very low score ..... but that score was still higher than everyone else. 

Unless you see the judge's card, you just don't know how the whole class placed relative to each other.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have seen much the same comments on a dressage result where a horse was often BTV but still placed above one that wasn't because they scored higher in other parts of the test

The only way to penalize people who's horses are very much too low is to set a rule that would eliminate them from the competition altogether
It concerns me as much that there are horse being bred that are deformed in their body shape, so downhill that they will have no useful 'life after WP' if they fail to make the grade or not enough WP buyers to even find them a home.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Just throwing this out there...haven't read everything since I posted last, so maybe somebody already has shown this.

This is the 2013 PtHA World Show WP championship. The lady on the blue roan pinto won (the one who is followed for the entirety of the video). Now, her horse's gaits are better than A LOT of what is seen out there (and even within that class) and obviously, this isn't AQHA or APHA, but from what I can gather the PtHA World Show is a pretty big deal, too, and their standards conform to those of AQHA and APHA pretty closely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhyWlU-HS3g

I don't know how World shows work. Do you have to win at lower levels to make it to the Worlds? So, you'd have to champion out at local, then regional, shows and so on in order to make it to Worlds? If that's the case, SOMEONE SOMEWHERE thought that the horses in this class deserved to make it to the top. When the majority of them can't hold a gait to save their life, are troping horribly, have a stiff ugly jog, and even their walk kinda sucks. 

Compared to this. This is the 2015 AQHA Congress (up there with Worlds, I assume). While still a little stilted in some places, a lot of these horses look MUCH better than in previous years. There's an actual LOPE there, not some weird "trope" thing. Those horses look like a pleasure to ride, for the most part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sb9fHztSNo

So, there's proof that things are heading in a better direction. 

But then you see crap like this and you have to wonder what the heck is going on for there to be such distinct differences in what's winning between classes in the same show (2015 AQHA Congress).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnCD-yN4aTQ


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It just looks painful.
And the award goes to the rider with the fanciest outfit and the horse that looks the most like a lifeless brain dead zombie........................


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

This is an honest question- and I have read the rules, watched the judging guidelines posted here, etc.- why are all the horses in the last video loping by traveling on two separate tracks? I can't even call them "counterbent" because there's not bend in their body anywhere, but their front end is on the track closest to the rail, and their hind end is cocked one path to the inside. They are all doing this, so that makes me think this is how they are trained to do it? Why?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Thank you Beau, you have pointed what what is accepted fact,far as classes where there are placings, versus a score
Unless that Judge really wants to stick his neck out, gate the entire class, or starting placings from , say, 3rd on down, he has to place those horses, where none arr truly performing as they should be
Unless one has also judged a rail class, maybe that person does not relaize how difficult it is (impossible ) to watch each horse all the time, and many exhibitors are very good, at 'fixing' their horse, behind the judges back. I have ridden in a class, where a horse that broke, won, simply because that judge did not see that break
Classes that can be scored (ie,individual runs ) are much fairer then a subjective rail class.
Trail western riding, reining, horsemanship, all have scores, Depending on the competition, a horse with a lower score can still win, if he is the best horse there.
That is why the Alberta horse Improvement show, held a great deal of appeal for me.. It was designed to show future athletic potential in young horses,and not discipline specific
The performance patterns were for three, four and five year olds
Three judges were used.One from a western background, one from an English background, and an equine vet
The vet only judged the conformation, which was 20% of the total score, and was based on 'form to function, with major and minor faults noted, and the horse moved out on a large triangle
However, there were no placings, just an evaluation score.
For ahorse to get a "classic' designation, he had to score an average of 75% and greater.
A score of 85% and greater , was premium, with very few horses earning that
Thus, one year , in day, Appaloosa three year old performance, you might have several horses score classic, and other years none

Smilie scored Classic, in the three year old performance test, which was much like a dressage test, and could be ridden either English and western.
The big point was though, that there was only one point difference in my score, between that of the English judge,and that of the western judge, with their written comments very similar
Anyway, I still believe there are some great western pl horses out there, that the entire western pl industry is not made up out of poor movers. I have been to the World Appaloosa show,in Texas, just to watch, and there were some really nice pleasure horses, moving as per rule, deserving to win, and with the good horses being rewarded
I took clinics with an AQHA trainer, who has won at the world level in trail, western riding and western pleasure. I know how well his horses moved, and when he let me ride his one pleasure horse, it was like riding a cadillac with the lift at the lope, almost moving you out of the saddle, and a mere touch of a leg, giving instant transitions, or a flying change, depending how you used that leg,
Thus, I fully relaize and accept the fact that at time, you can have an entire class where none of the horses are really moving correctly, with the judge taking the logical way out and placing that class , from first. I have seen a few cases, where a judge started his placings lower down, brave enough to make a statement
It also takes time for all the judges to become knowledgeable, and to have bad judges removed. Thsu, those that really see a problem with the way a class is placed, have to have the guts to make a formal protest, thus put their money up, not just their mouth. If the protest is upheld, money is refunded, and bad judges, given enough protests against them,a rew removed
Those that run against the clock, have to worry about none of this!


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> It just looks* painful.*
> And the award goes to the rider with the fanciest outfit and the horse that looks the most like a *lifeless brain dead zombie*........................


With this comment coming from a moderator ...... What exactly does a comment like this "add" to the discussion except more bashing of WP?




jaydee said:


> The only way to penalize people who's horses are very much too low is to set a rule that would eliminate them from the competition altogether


But then what do you do with the horse that had a correct headset but spooked at the gate, broke gait 3 times, picked up the wrong lead twice, and had a very uneven pace at the jog?

Whereas the horse who had the headset that was too low, but performed perfectly otherwise?

Each horse had faults. Who's faults were greater to result in a lower score and lower placing? Which faults are grounds for elimination?

That's the conundrum. 




egrogan said:


> This is an honest question- and I have read the rules, watched the judging guidelines posted here, etc.- why are all the horses in the last video loping by traveling on two separate tracks? I can't even call them "counterbent" because there's not bend in their body anywhere, but their front end is on the track closest to the rail, and their hind end is cocked one path to the inside. They are all doing this, so that makes me think this is how they are trained to do it? Why?


It is one way to get a horse to go slower. (in INCORRECT one, I may add) In the new AQHA rules, what you are describing is considered a fault. I can't recall the exact technical term they call it. Maybe Smilie can.



smilie said:


> Those that run against the clock, have to worry about none of this!


Which is why I LOVE running barrels. There's no politics or judges opinions. :wink:

It's simply whoever is the fastest.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

THIS is what we are talking about

This is what we dont like. the head incredibly low and the awkward slow gait. I even have a beef with arabian WP because the horses are behind the vertical.

























If my mare was to walk like this on trail rides ror in the arena i would get on her and make her bring it up. she is bound to trip over herself.


this frame looks ALOT like your horses frame and i LIKE IT. 

















My issue with the movement of the horses here is not even the speed. its how the move. if my horse started trotting like that the vet would be out. My question is WHY is an gait that looks lame a disirable thing? why? I know you do itherthings with your horses and other disciplines do this and that. thought arguments are fallacies. you are pulling a read herring. this discussion has nothing to do with what other disciplines do or dont do. i dont CARE what they do in regards to this discussion. I like showing arabian halter. some halter trainers are cruel in their training methods. some use ginger under the tail to make then raise them up. Do i condone that? HECK NO. will i continue to show arabian halter? you bet i will and i will do my best to win without any of the cruelties that others do. same with qh and paint halter. i will not show my friend's gelding with a lip chain. he does not need it, MOST horses dont. i used to run barrels and poles. did i flop around and lick like a maniac? no i learnt to ride from Tommy Francois. he is an old time cutting trainer who focused on your seat. He also trained mules and had a couple mule cutters. he learnt how to get the result without being forceful or unjust in his methods. I know that my seat and riding is incredibly important regardless of what im riding. on the trail or in the arena. rail or pattern. 


So please stop derailing and steering AWAY from the questions. If someone asked me WHY arabians are set up with one leg out and not square i would tell them because it helps make their croup look flatter. why are their necks arched like that? Because it helps show off the refinement and beauty of their necks. THAT is the type of answers we are looking for. Not well i can also take my halter horse on a trail ride through the mountains halter is not evil and i can do other things with my horse.

Your overly defensive and aggressive argument fulled with fallacies stops the reasonable decisions people are trying to have. and therefore causing an equally heated response that is now attacking your discipline as you have attacked others. you are looking for something in the comments that is NOT THERE and angering people creating what you ARE LOOKING for! So for the LOVE of my sanity and for people being ALLOWED to have an actually decent and honest discussion stop. if you cant stay on topic or say something constructive please dont comment.


Here is what we WANT TO KNOW
Why is is desirable to have a horse be able to move that incredible slow?
Why have they been slowed down to the point of an unnatural movement?
Why is the horse supposed to carry its head so incredibly low. 
Why is that winning if its against the rules? 

These are reasonable questions and no one is attacking your horses with them.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> My question is WHY is an gait that looks lame a disirable thing? why?


I know you may be directing this much more at Smilie, but I'm bored at work. :wink:

It is NOT desirable to have a gait that looks lame. Usually the ones that look lame are the horses that are being forced to go slower than they are physically capable of doing.

Yes, it's a shame it is *still* being awarded in the show ring and I don't agree with it. Little more about that in just the posts above this. Change takes time. And takes gutsy judges willing to stand up for change.

To see a horse who _IS _athletically capable to go that extremely slow is an amazing thing to see, and a very cool thing to ride and feel that horse "floating" under you. It might not look like it, but it does take a very athletic horse to carry themselves in such a way.



KigerQueen said:


> . Do i condone that? HECK NO. will i continue to show arabian halter? you bet i will and i will do my best to win without any of the cruelties that others do. same with qh and paint halter.


Maybe I missed it in the pages and pages of responses, but I didn't see where Smilie condoned the horses that didn't look good for WP.




KigerQueen said:


> Why is is desirable to have a horse be able to move that incredible slow?


Why is it desirable to have a dressage horse do a piaffe?
Why do I desire to run around 3 barrels as fast as I can?
Why is it desirable for have a reining horse do a sliding stop?
Etc. 

I don't know why you NEED to have a reason for people to desire to show WP. And I don't know if there is a reason. It's just their interest. That's what they want to do. Like most other events or disciplines, there's really not any real reason for it anymore, but it may be what the horse is good at and what the rider/owner enjoys doing. 

I personally won't ever be showing a real WP horse. Too slow for me. Not my cup of tea. But I can certainly respect the people that do enjoy WP and _do it well.

_Having a WP horse that is truly talented and a trainer who does things the right way is an excellent combination, and a huge challenge. It takes a great deal of athletism to be able to travel that slow and still look like it is effortless and flowing. 

As the entire reason for this thread, of course, not all horses look like that. And some look like they are dead lame instead. I think as it has already been discussed, that's not what anyone here desires (the lame look) or agrees is correct. 



KigerQueen said:


> Why have they been slowed down to the point of an unnatural movement?


I don't know that it's been slowed down to the point of unnatural movement. I think it's more a matter that people are trying to slow down horses SLOWER than that particular horse is able to go.... or maybe using the wrong training methods to get there. Only the extremely talented horses can go _that_ slow and still look good doing it. The "lame look" comes when the rider is trying to force the horse farther than it can go and/or using wrong training methods to get there. 

What the trend should be (and what is very, very slowly trying to be "fixed") is for the horse to go as slow as THAT horse is capable of going while still looking and moving good.

People DO see what's winning. And they see the super slow horses. So they try to force their horse to do the same as the winning horse .... without considering their horse actually _looks better_ going slightly faster.



KigerQueen said:


> Why is the horse supposed to carry its head so incredibly low.


They're not. As been discussed just a couple posts above, it is a fault for the horse's poll to be lower than the withers. BUT you have to look at the entire class and the entire group of horses. Which is a bigger fault? The peanut roller headset ... or the horse who broke gait and has an uneven jog? Which gets scored lower?




KigerQueen said:


> Why is that winning if its against the rules?


Again, check the couple posts just above. It's not so simple as that. 

There are other things are against the rules too and considered faults. The judge has to look at each horse in THAT particular class, and place accordingly based on score. 

What if one horse in the class had a good headset, but they were 4-beating at the lope?

What if another horse had a good headset and a good lope, but they spooked at the gate every single time they came around the arena and broke gait?

What if another horse had a good headset but loped on the wrong lead twice?

What is another horse was a peanut roller headset, but got all their leads, didn't spook, had a good lope, and did great otherwise?

Who had the most "faults"? Who is going to have the winning score?


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

I was watching one of the videos Drafty just posted of the PtHA show and the QH shows. My non-horse husband (who has seen me ride exactly twice, not in shows) came up behind me and asked what I was watching. I told him "a horse show". His reply was "Why is that horse limping"? He thought the horse was sore and was having trouble.

When I saw Smilie's pictures I was puzzled as to why she has had such a reaction on this thread. It is obvious her horses don't travel like the horse first posted that Tiny was asking about.

I am also looking for the answers to Kiger's questions, well put. I am wondering what the practical application is to the extreme slowness and low head, or if like a previous poster wrote, it is desired just because it can be done.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

You pulled the same red harring that smille did to a cuple of questions. THANK you for answering the way you did though .

i dont care "Why is it desirable to have a dressage horse do a piaffe?
Why do I desire to run around 3 barrels as fast as I can?
Why is it desirable for have a reining horse do a sliding stop?"

I want to know why the goal is to go slow. i also dont doubt that it takes skill on the part of the horse to go slow. just in a ranching standpoint (that's where the AQHA came from) why slower would be beneficial. its an honest question.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Just throwing this out there...haven't read everything since I posted last, so maybe somebody already has shown this.
> 
> This is the 2013 PtHA World Show WP championship. The lady on the blue roan pinto won (the one who is followed for the entirety of the video). Now, her horse's gaits are better than A LOT of what is seen out there (and even within that class) and obviously, this isn't AQHA or APHA, but from what I can gather the PtHA World Show is a pretty big deal, too, and their standards conform to those of AQHA and APHA pretty closely.
> 
> ...




I'm not seeing much difference between video 2 and video 3.
In video 2, which you gave as an admirable example, I literally could not tell if the horses were jogging or walking upon their entry to the ring, at start of video. That vid didn't have sound, so I couldn't hear the announcers voice telling me what gait it was supposed to be.


After all this discussion, and hearing from members who remind us that the horses are trained, highly trained to do these gaits, yet can move out when asked, I was coming to feel more appreciation for what I don't understand. However , then I view these videos and I come right back to finding the look incomprehensible as anything appealing. It just looks like a horse that is being crippled and crabbed. If you had no idea this was a standardized way of showing, had never heard of WP , and you saw one rider riding this way, you'd think, "what's wrong with that horse ?"


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

^i was confused after I looked away from the video for a minute, I also could not tell if they were jogging or walking...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Tiny, I was speaking more to the lope than anything else. I do agree that the "wog" is still there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> You pulled the same red harring that smille did to a cuple of questions.
> 
> i dont care "Why is it desirable to have a dressage horse do a piaffe?
> Why do I desire to run around 3 barrels as fast as I can?
> ...


Because that's the definition of western *pleasure*. 

When you go take a leisurely walk in the park on a summer day .... do you speed walk? No. You amble and walk slow and take in the scenery and enjoy the walk. Because it's a _pleasure_ to do so.

Same concept, in my mind, for WP. It is suppose to be a "pleasure". A relaxing slow ride. Thus, SLOW gaits. 

Not sure why it has to be any more complicated than that. 

And there's no reason I can't compare WHY you go slow in WP to WHY you do other things in other events. It's simply part of the event and it's "what you do".


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

I feel like these threads are just beating a dead horse, so to speak. If you don't like western pleasure, western stock showing, or the western types, then nobody is holding a gun to your head saying that you have to own that type of horse, or show that type of horse, or ride that type of horse. You enjoy what you do, let others enjoy what they do.


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

QHDragon said:


> I feel like these threads are just beating a dead horse, so to speak. If you don't like western pleasure, western stock showing, or the western types, then nobody is holding a gun to your head saying that you have to own that type of horse, or show that type of horse, or ride that type of horse. You enjoy what you do, let others enjoy what they do.


It isn't a question of "liking" or "not liking" the western riding disciplines or the stock type horse. The original question was regarding Western Pleasure *competition* at the high level breed shows.

So what I am getting out of the last comment by beau, and there is some truth to that, the extreme slowness is for the pleasure of the rider, the slow gaits being easy to sit without necessarily having an educated seat (anyone can ride) and not being in any hurry to get to a destination.

I am sure my opinion won't prevent anyone from doing what they do.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Thank you for answering. that answer makes sense. its alot different then why do this do that. it was a very credible reason. that was all i wanted i clean cut answer, not a tangent into left field. 


All i was trying to get at with the red herring is that if someone asked me a question i would answer it. NOT compare it to something the person may not know about. The explanations of going for a nice slow pleasurable ride is a good one. no a Why do people run horses around barrels at speed? that dose not answer the question. you really cant answer a question with another. you are simply directing my attention away from the original question.

I love these types of threads. i feel like i can learn something from more than just a google search. i'm getting straight from the source so to speak. 

So far i have the answers to my questions.


*Why is is desirable to have a horse be able to move that incredible slow?* Because the idea of a pleasurable ride is akin to a nice slow walk through the park. smooth to ride and not in a hurry to be anywhere.

*Why have they been slowed down to the point of an unnatural movement?* That is caused from a horse being slowed down beyong their ability to do the gait. some horses can truly be able to do it but quite a few cant and just skirt by getting away with it.


*Why is the horse supposed to carry its head so incredibly low?* Its supposed to reflect the appearance of a relaxed horse (im assuming?). but not so low as to be considered a peanut roller.

*Why is that winning if its against the rules?* as explained before. some of it is there are judges too ingrained to rule against it. and it could be that combined with what horse 's points add up to win over others that had a few faults.

I feel a little better about western pleasure now. and it makes sense to me a bit more. i feel that too many trainers are slowing horses down beyond their ability to do so creating these unatural looking gaits. i feel maybe a change is in order. that the horse should only be slowed enough that it still is a nice slow ride but the gaits are not broken down doing so.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Mia had an incredible western slow jog. She did everything else fast, and would cheerfully trot fast too, but when she was in a good mood she would break into a light jog. Her walk was probably about 5-6 mph, and her jog might have been slower - she sometimes did it when I was walking her in the desert, so maybe 3.5-4 mph jog? I've stopped her while leading her and had her jog in place at my shoulder.

It was NOT a true WP movement, and this is the only photo I have of her:










As for what was the point...I guess you would have to ask her. I never knew her to do it when she wasn't happy.

"_the slow gaits being easy to sit without necessarily having an educated seat (anyone can ride)_"

I don't think not having "an educated seat" has anything to do with it, and I'm sure most WP fans would not think of themselves as being ham-butts. I hate to watch WP and don't, but if Mia's "Happy Feet Jog" felt something like a WP horse, then I could understand the "pleasure" part.

But it really boils down to my not needing to understand it. If horse and rider are both happy doing it, I'll be happy for them and go my own way. I've never had a WP fan tell me I had to follow her example...:wink:


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

beau159 said:


> I agree that you still see "peanut rollers" and "4 beaters" winning at the big shows. But you have to keep in mind that a judge can only place horses based on the class in front of him/her.


On this point, I will disagree. I have seen videos of classes where the slowest won, when there were others in the class that seemed to be moving appropriately. The winning horses should have been shown the gate, if the rules were NOT being respected.

Many of the judges ARE also trainers. They work to keep the "hard to attain" poor movements as the prize, IMO.



> Yes, maybe that horse did have the poll below the withers. But maybe that horse had a better cadence then the horse that had the poll even with the withers and "scored better" that way, leaving that horse with an overall higher score and placing higher. Or maybe the horse that had the poll even with the withers broke gait twice, whereas the peanut roller did not.


The rules say continued violation of the rules mean the gate. If they are splitting hairs, the rules mean NOTHING.



> Or maybe every horse in the class had their poll below the withers.


All it would take is a judge, with real cahones, to say that they were ALL in violation of the rules and, therefore, there is the gate...to show people that the AQHA means business.





> One might say "_well disqualify the whole class!_" but it's not that simple sometimes. There are shows out there that *require* their judges to place 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. And there are some shows that will let you place on how you see fit; so if the judge didn't see a 1st place performance, they don't have to place a horse there.


Then that "requirement" means their rules mean nothing.....



> I agree that I don't like seeing peanut rollers continue to win classes. But you have to look at the entire class and the entire performance of everyone in that class. Maybe the peanut roller winner had a very low score ..... but that score was still higher than everyone else.
> 
> Unless you see the judge's card, you just don't know how the whole class placed relative to each other.


I would be upset too, if I were you. YOU produce good working horses that have nice movement. But you are being squashed, on the world level, by the violators. Until the AQHA makes a HUGE stand....nothing will change. There is too much money at stake. And, until that money is really at risk, nothing will change. YOU, and others with good working WP horses, are the ultimate victims here.


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

bsms said:


> Mia had an incredible western slow jog. She did everything else fast, and would cheerfully trot fast too, but when she was in a good mood she would break into a light jog. Her walk was probably about 5-6 mph, and her jog might have been slower - she sometimes did it when I was walking her in the desert, so maybe 3.5-4 mph jog? I've stopped her while leading her and had her jog in place at my shoulder.
> 
> It was NOT a true WP movement, and this is the only photo I have of her:
> 
> ...


You totally misunderstood what I wrote. By uneducated seat, I meant that ANY beginner, novice, non-horse person (i.e. uneducated seat) etc. would be able to ride a horse doing the gaits that slowly and therefore have a pleasurable ride.


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## Spec (Jun 13, 2015)

KigerQueen said:


> You pulled the same red harring that smille did to a cuple of questions. THANK you for answering the way you did though .
> 
> i dont care "Why is it desirable to have a dressage horse do a piaffe?
> Why do I desire to run around 3 barrels as fast as I can?
> ...


First of all, the goal isn't to go slow. That's a misconception made by people who have nothing to do with WP, and a misconception made by people who ride WP but don't really understand what it really should be.

Why is it desirable? Some see it as pretty. I see it as a building block.

Have you ever tried doing a complicated trail pattern on a horse who wants to do a jig while you try to get through the rope gate, race around the cones, and can't extend his lope when asked because the lope he always does is already as extended as it gets, and have his head stuck in the air like a scared idiot? Well I have, and it's dang hard to not make mistakes. A horse that has real gears is just plain easier to ride and easier to do a full day of showing on. I think that is the appeal to a lot of amateur weekend-show riders (which is who the majority of WP riders are).

As a whole, the fundamentals of WP are things that I think EVERY horse and rider on the western side should be able to do. Walk, trot, lope, reverse on a loose rein, back up effortlessly, lope on both leads, communicate quietly and discreetly with your horse, work with your horse so that he moves in a quiet and relaxed manner on a hot show day, and to just demonstrate overall good horsemanship.

As for the extreme cases like the peanut rollers and the sideways rail snails... I can't tell you what the appeal is. It's something that kind of snowballed. Fads come and go. *the only way to change a discipline is to BE the change*. Many judges, riders, etc. that I know (on the local level) are way ahead of y'all on this thread and have been working on making WP a functional class again here for years now. It does no use for outsiders who have no involvement with western pleasure (who think they know it all because they watched a YouTube video of a crappy pleasure horse) to sit here and complain on the internet. However, people who ride, train, and show in western pleasure, are the people who really have the ability to make a difference in the discipline.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

For the people that still think people should like what Western Pleasure has morphed into, I would like you to go to an article written Tom Chown in the March, 2015 issue of the on-line magazine, 'Show Horse Today'. Allison Finch first posted this on page 18 of this thread. http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/what-appeal-660857/page18/

While there are a few people that like the style and what it represents and trainer / judges keep perpetuating it despite the rule changes by AQHA, it is is overwhelmingly disliked by most horsepeople and about all lay people alike.

*Perception IS reality!

*If 90% of the people exposed to the style dislike it. Then that IS the reality. AQHA and many of their respected directors and management team recognize it is the reality. They 'get it'. They recognize that people have abandoned AQHA shows in droves over this. Please read what Tom Chown, a very respected judge, trainer, AQHA Professional Horseman and AQHA representative has to say about this 'style'. Tom Chown 'gets it'!​


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> As for the extreme cases like the peanut rollers and the sideways rail snails... I can't tell you what the appeal is. It's something that kind of snowballed. Fads come and go. *the only way to change a discipline is to BE the change*. Many judges, riders, etc. that I know (on the local level) are way ahead of y'all on this thread and have been working on making WP a functional class again here for years now. It does no use for outsiders who have no involvement with western pleasure (who think they know it all because they watched a YouTube video of a crappy pleasure horse) to sit here and complain on the internet. However, people who ride, train, and show in western pleasure, are the people who really have the ability to make a difference in the discipline. :grin:


This has been done. It has not worked. Rules have been changed to no avail. AQHA has really tried. Directors from many states have tried. It does no good to keep spending thousands of dollars to show a horse that is moving like the rule book says only to keep getting the gate over and over and over. I has not worked to "Be the change". No one wants to spend this kind of money to literally 'beat a dead horse'.

The reason 'local shows' are better is because those horses do not come out of professional BNT show barns. The owners and local trainers don't know how to make one or don't want a useless 'rail snail'. What about those of us that showed big shows, qualified horses for the World, went to the Congress and the big Stock Shows? Do you want us to go back to the 4-H / local show level? The last World Show that I hauled exhibitors to was 1981. The last Youth World Show that I hauled a youth to was 1982. [One youth qualified in 4 events -- WP, Trail, Reining and Working Cowhorse). She missed qualifying in halter by 1 point.] I qualified 'open' horses in 1985 and 1986 and did not go.

So, everyone of us that hates the style, quit showing at AQHA shows or quit showing WP classes. Most of us that hated the halter and pleasure horse that were winning, went to other associations altogether. We tried to make the change for years and finally had to leave AQHA showing to the few people that like it and make their living from it. Thankfully, AQHA finally came up with a solution by initiating the Ranch Horse Division but it is too late to bring back the NRHA, NCHA and stock horse association members that abandoned AQHA Shows in droves. If they show at all in the AQHA, it is in one class, just enough to qualify for the World. It's too late for me but some people will come back to the Ranch Horse classes. Even 4-H now offers 'Ranch classes'. 

So, as I said above, *Perception IS reality! * Cherie


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

*Question?*

Do judges have to be approved by the AQHA?

If this is so then it is quite simple, get them off the approved panel for not adhering to the rules. Set up a panel of new judges who understand about the movement of the horse.


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

Closed for moderators' review.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

It should be that simple but it isn't. There are many breeders that register a lot of horses every year that now breed for the slow-footed way of going breed for the style. Most of the big trainers also have judge's cards. Most of the judges are also trainers or breeders. They cannot afford to pull the plug on that many people that make their livings doing this. Meanwhile, they have kept the registration business and advertising business of all of the people that quit showing at their shows over this. They just lost them to showing. 

The same thing happened to halter. Those classes have gotten tiny. Fewer and fewer people wanted to raise horses that could only show at halter and could not ride with that pitiful conformation. Only the few that excel at halter ever get shown. Most of the others do not ride and end up in Mexico. But, there are so many that people register to get the halter 'look' that they gave up there, too. They started 'Performance halter' where a horse had to have a show record under saddle to qualify. It has been marginally successful but not great.


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