# The war horse



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I have read this a number of times in different books. Usually written my englishmen who were in the cavalry in one of the arab countries. They are old books written in the mid 1800's
Books on what it was like back then when horses were used as war horses.
I just found this interesting. While way overboard for us maybe back then when your life depended on your horse.
Like the king who said "" My kingdom for horse""

Anyway copied from one of those books, don't know for sure which but I believe it was Horses of the Sahara, I beleive


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

When your life depends on a horse you will do what you need to do to make sure the horse will not fail you. Your average bedoin wouldn't have the luxury of dismounting and doing a little ground work or playing the porcupine game when his horse refuses to cross an obstacle while hoards of rival tribesman are bearing down on him. American Indians used different but equally harsh techniques for training thier horses.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Awesome thread Kevin. 

I enjoy reading about the Polish Hussars because of my Polish heritage. They were phenomanal horsemen and the funny thing when you read about them is that nowhere does it talk about cavalry soldiers going through horse after horse looking for the ONE. Like all soldiers going into battle they had a horse and they made it work, I have never come across discussions on the nature of the Hussarian battle horse although there is a lot of discussion on the prefered confirmation. I believe the general belief was that if a horse was physically capable then it would make a battle horse, whether the horse wanted to be or not wasn't really up for discussion.

Now days many horse riders underestimate the capabilities of the horses they ride and considering all the problem horses that crop up on this forum it is definitely to the horses detriment. There is the same mentality cropping up in horse training as there is in raising children. This weird belief that there should be a choice. Which I don't subscribe to in any way shape or form, for my horse and my child there are no choices in some aspects of life. When horse riding I choose the direction, speed, pace that we go - no discussion and do what is required to get my way. With my daughter I dictate the rules all day and there is no choice for her. Now I have a horse that goes anywhere and through anything regardless of circumstances, I also have a young daughter who is happy, polite, outgoing, confident and well behaved. 

I know I have gone off on a bit of a tangent I just believe that in this new politically correct world we seem to live in, the lines of true authority have been lost. That small piece of text kindly shared by Kevin is very revealing it is about the lives of people who couldn't afford to worry about the sensibility of their horses and the horses were better for it.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kiwigirl said:


> Awesome thread Kevin.
> 
> . That small piece of text kindly shared by Kevin is very revealing it is about the lives of people who couldn't afford to worry about the sensibility of their horses and the horses were better for it.


Yes thank you Kevin for posting that.:lol::lol:

I beleive a horse forced into something becomes the more reliable in the end. A horse that never tries and then fails is never really dependable.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

I dont really like the sound of that training method, There are other ways to make a fearless horse. but the cavalry has lots of horses and theyre in war... so it would be a little hard to use the longer training methods, haha.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> I dont really like the sound of that training method, There are other ways to make a fearless horse. but the cavalry has lots of horses and theyre in war... so it would be a little hard to use the longer training methods, haha.


 I don't think I agree with the statement that there are other ways to make a horse fearless. I believe that you can get a horse to tolerate certain things in certain situations through long careful exposure however that doesn't beget a brave horse. That is a horse that is ok in some situations but basically unpredictable. A brave horse is one that goes forward into ANY new situation with no hesitation, absolutely trusting that what ever is ahead can be coped with. My horse is like that, I am riding on my own more and more because I am sick of being limited in the scope of my rides by people who have horses that are too scared and untrusting to do what I know they can do easily - after all my horse does it.

I am a very brave rider who has been riding in rough country since I was a kid, I know what a horse is capable of handling in the environment we live in and that is what I expect my horse to do. If my horse said "no way, I can't do that the water is too dirty and deep and that bank is too steep and slippery to go up or down!" I would never go anywhere. I don't give my horse the choice because she would probably choose not to go forward which would leave me looking like a **** with a long walk home. I can't see any other way of teaching a horse how to be brave other than putting them in a situation and making them face up to it - whatever that takes.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

im not saying not make them face up to it, but I am saying different ways other then make their sides bleed. 
haha and sorry, i didnt quite mean fearless, just brave, haha there isnt a horse out there that is fearless, they have to many instincts for that.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

wow. I agree with most of you, but does that mean if my horse won't cross somthing on the trail, I force them too? Seriously, what do we do about that modern times?


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## PechosGoldenChance (Aug 23, 2009)

haha you know whats funny, riding a horse the next morning with a hangover. Once they spook good, your totally awake and alert lol. I just had to say that since this thread is about fearless and what not. If our horses were fearless, than we would never be awake while riding them like we are now haha. I'd rather ride my horse to sober up than to drive, driving with a hangover makes me even more tired.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I don't agree with the entire method (like the rubbing in of salt or gunpowder) but in situations like that, that is a quick and effective method to get a very obedient horse. That isn't the way that I do things, I don't believe in inflicting injury unless I truely have to. But then again, I have more time to get my horses trained than they probably did. I like to think that any one of mine would willingly charge into a bunch of men wearing armor and carrying swords but unless they are ever called to, I guess I'll never know LOL. However, I do know that they will face down a charging angry momma cow or pull anything that I can put a rope on and that's what I need. So I'm pretty happy with how mine behave and I have never had to draw blood with a spur to get them there.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kiwigirl said:


> I don't think I agree with the statement that there are other ways to make a horse fearless. I believe that you can get a horse to tolerate certain things in certain situations through long careful exposure however that doesn't beget a brave horse. That is a horse that is ok in some situations but basically unpredictable. A brave horse is one that goes forward into ANY new situation with no hesitation, absolutely trusting that what ever is ahead can be coped with. My horse is like that, I am riding on my own more and more because I am sick of being limited in the scope of my rides by people who have horses that are too scared and untrusting to do what I know they can do easily - after all my horse does it.
> 
> I am a very brave rider who has been riding in rough country since I was a kid, I know what a horse is capable of handling in the environment we live in and that is what I expect my horse to do. If my horse said "no way, I can't do that the water is too dirty and deep and that bank is too steep and slippery to go up or down!" I would never go anywhere. I don't give my horse the choice because she would probably choose not to go forward which would leave me looking like a **** with a long walk home. I can't see any other way of teaching a horse how to be brave other than putting them in a situation and making them face up to it - whatever that takes.


YOu and I think alike. There is nothing that I know of that my horse refuses to do. He goes where he is pointed and no is not in his vocabulary.
Yes we have fought over things in the past but he lost every battle and no longer thinks of refusing. I believe that a force trained horse is a reliable horse.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> I dont really like the sound of that training method, There are other ways to make a fearless horse. but the cavalry has lots of horses and theyre in war... so it would be a little hard to use the longer training methods, haha.


 
If you life depended on your horse? If killing him meant you might escape with your own life ? Would you kill him??

You bet your butt you would.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Good article, but entirely besides the point. As smrobs said, we DO have the luxury of making it a little easier on them now. Perhaps back in the day they didn't have any choice and needed a fearless animal, due to a life and death matter, but now you're just comparing apples to oranges. Horses are a luxury and not a necessity now, and I really don't believe for an instant that delibrating torturing an animal makes a better horse. I really hope you're speaking in general terms about being tough with a horse as opposed to actually believing that salt should be rubbed into his wounds for "being bad".

Modern methods essentially exist because we no longer require a horse to live in mortal fear of us, and we have the luxury of taking some time. Obviously people can take this too far and create an obstinate and spoiled horse, but there is obviously a happy medium to be found.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> If you life depended on your horse? If killing him meant you might escape with your own life ? Would you kill him??
> 
> You bet your butt you would.


 I would have zero faith in the cavalry if they waited to train there horses until the enemy was chasing them. if they did that you might as well blind a bunch of men and send them into a raging battlefeild.:wink:


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> im not saying not make them face up to it, but I am saying different ways other then make their sides bleed.
> haha and sorry, i didnt quite mean fearless, just brave, haha there isnt a horse out there that is fearless, they have to many instincts for that.


Ever see some of the bull fighting horses up close after a bull fight? If you did you would see blood on some of them. I too thought is disgusting to see blood but it is there.

As for a horse being fearless?? Nothing I know of frightens Rio. Shadow had no fears and my old guy Strider refused to spook at anything.
So yes horses can be fearless. I think this prey thing is over done

I saw a german shepherd enter the field with my horse and I thought the dog was going to be killed. I guess the horse forgot he was suppose to be the prey?


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Ever see some of the bull fighting horses up close after a bull fight? If you did you would see blood on some of them. I too thought is disgusting to see blood but it is there.
> 
> As for a horse being fearless?? Nothing I know of frightens Rio. Shadow had no fears and my old guy Strider refused to spook at anything.
> So yes horses can be fearless. I think this prey thing is over done
> ...


 so your saying if a mountain lion came after your horse, your horse wouldnt run? like hell it would. haha i think we have different definitions of fearless :wink:


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

thunderhooves said:


> wow. I agree with most of you, but does that mean if my horse won't cross somthing on the trail, I force them too? Seriously, what do we do about that modern times?


If my horse refused to cross something on the trail that is exactly what I would do. If he refused to cross a stream I would force him across. If he refuses to cross a small pedestran bridge I would force him. In short he would be forced to go anywhere I want him to go.
IN the end you end up with a horse that doesn't know NO

Force a few issues and you beat every issue in the future.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> so your saying if a mountain lion came after your horse, your horse wouldnt run? like hell it would. haha i think we have different definitions of fearless :wink:


 
Our local park had a bear in a cage. A big brown bear and I walked my horse up to the cage. The bear reared up on the wire putting his claws throught the wire. My horse stretched his nose out and sniffed at the claws.

Sorry no mountian lions around here. But if one ever comes around I will let you know how it turns out.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Our local park had a bear in a cage. A big brown bear and I walked my horse up to the cage. The bear reared up on the wire putting his claws throught the wire. My horse stretched his nose out and sniffed at the claws.
> 
> Sorry no mountian lions around here. But if one ever comes around I will let you know how it turns out.


theres no mountain lions in ontario? haha shows how much i know about the otherside of my country, haha. anyways, yes, you let me know how that goes, because I can tell you one thing, I would rather see a huge grizzly while out trail riding then a cougar, they are significantly more scary then bears.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> theres no mountain lions in ontario? haha shows how much i know about the otherside of my country, haha. anyways, yes, you let me know how that goes, because I can tell you one thing, I would rather see a huge grizzly while out trail riding then a cougar, they are significantly more scary then bears.


I live in southern ontario. We have NO bears, NO mountain lions, tigers, no nothing dangerous. NO poisonous snakes, spiders, no nothing.. Boring.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Geez, lucky. Not that we have that much more here. Rattlers, coyotes, and the occasional mountain lion or bobcat (though I haven't seen one of either in years).


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

you guys should join us in alberta! we have moose (which for some reason sooo many horses are terrified of!?) cougars aka mountain lions, and all kinds of bears! im not sure if we have rattlesnakes though.... I will have to check up on that, haha.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

Frankly I don't care what a book says about this, I shan't be digging spurs into the sides of a horse with salt rubbed on unless it's a life or death situation, but I can't imagine a scenario where that would be the best option.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

roro said:


> Frankly I don't care what a book says about this, I shan't be digging spurs into the sides of a horse with salt rubbed on unless it's a life or death situation, but I can't imagine a scenario where that would be the best option.


 thats hwat im thinking.. My horse has a mind of her own, and if i dug my spurs into her that hard you can be sure I would be halfway to the moon beforei realized she bucked me off. she would never put up with that kind of stuff. :lol: haha so i would have a choice: have my horse teach me a real good lesson in manners because i got full of myself, or work it out so that she was willing to do what i want for me and try her best to do it.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

We don't have bears, lions, cougars, or anything of that sort, thank god!

We just have a lot of really poisonous snakes :S


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

they dont have cougars in australia? geez, i always thought they did! im glad we dont have poisenous snakes here, i deal really badly with tiny things that bite, haha i would rather be worried about bears XD but thats probably only because ive always grown up with bears and cougars in the brush, and snakes and spiders would be new to me. haha its probably the opposite for you.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> thats hwat im thinking.. My horse has a mind of her own, and if i dug my spurs into her that hard you can be sure I would be halfway to the moon beforei realized she bucked me off. she would never put up with that kind of stuff. :lol: haha so i would have a choice: have my horse teach me a real good lesson in manners because i got full of myself, or work it out so that she was willing to do what i want for me and try her best to do it.


Ditto.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Snakes scare the bejeebys out of me, but only when they are near the shed or the horses. Dad killed two snakes near our shed last year. Out in a paddock they don't bug me so much :]

Cougars would terrify me! We have dingo's in some parts of Australia but they are essentially just wild dogs and generally wouldn't bother a horse.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

cougars dont really scare me to much, horses know, and cougars rarely come around ranches and stuff looking for horses or farm animals, haha we have to many yummy deer running around that they would bother with a horse. cougars only scare me because they sit in trees and wait to hunt something, bears basically just wonder around looking for berrys, haha. but cougars like meat, and the look in their eyes can be terrifying. i wouldnt be so scared of them if they didnt jump from trees and aim to break their preys neck, because if you act bigger and stronger then them they usually run.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

At the risk of sounding arrogant I really do dig my spurs in when my horse is reluctgant to do something. When it is riding time she has no choice. What is the point of giving a horse the choice to work or not? I mean you know given the choice they are not going to do something uncomfortable. Someone earlier said something like they won't make their horse cross an obstacle on a trail that the horse doesn't like. What is the point of riding if you are only willing to go where a horse wants to go? Your better off walking because then you can go where YOU want to go. I don't believe that a horse should have a choice in work, I lead, horse follows. How can you be a strong leader if you let the horse decide where or what it will do. And sometimes there is a battle to establish leadership and a good dig with the spurs can resolve that battle very quickly, and if a horse completely revolts at a riders attempt to be the leader ie wont go somewhere it doesn't want to go, bucking you off when you assert authority then I don't think that you can call yourself the leader at all. There does come a time once the battles have been fought and won, as Riosdad pointed out, and the horse concedes to the rider as a leader then you and your horse can go anywhere as a happy and coherent working team - maybe even into battle.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

kiwigirl said:


> At the risk of sounding arrogant I really do dig my spurs in when my horse is reluctgant to do something. When it is riding time she has no choice. What is the point of giving a horse the choice to work or not? I mean you know given the choice they are not going to do something uncomfortable. Someone earlier said something like they won't make their horse cross an obstacle on a trail that the horse doesn't like. What is the point of riding if you are only willing to go where a horse wants to go? Your better off walking because then you can go where YOU want to go. I don't believe that a horse should have a choice in work, I lead, horse follows. How can you be a strong leader if you let the horse decide where or what it will do. And sometimes there is a battle to establish leadership and a good dig with the spurs can resolve that battle very quickly, and if a horse completely revolts at a riders attempt to be the leader ie wont go somewhere it doesn't want to go, bucking yo.u off when you assert authority then I don't think that you can call yourself the leader at all. There does come a time once the battles have been fought and won, as Riosdad pointed out, and the horse concedes to the rider as a leader then you and your horse can go anywhere as a happy and coherent working team - maybe even into battle.


i make my horse go through something they dont want to, i just do it without making her bleed (i am in no way saying you do) but horses know when they are being unfairly punished, and if i kicked my horse that hard with spurs because she is honestly scared of something then she would drop me in the dirt because i wasnt being fair. lets rethink this: if you were honestly scared of going through a dark creepy looking place or something, and someone came up behind you and tazored you in order to make you go through that scary place, you would be very uptight and not that happy to go there anymore. but if you were in war and you had 100 loud, scary people chasing you, you would go through faster then ever. so i still dont find the need to make them bleed to go through/over something. but hey, are horses must be different, because when rena sees something shes terrified of she stops dead, looks at it, and from my seat aid, she will walk towards it, there really isnt any need to use spurs IMO. im not against them, they can be a good training tool if used properly.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Rather or not my horses sides bleed are entirely dependent on what my horse decides. My favorite horse, Biscuit, came along very nicely in his training untill I took him to gather cows one day in the fall. He decided to try backing up at random times and the more I would spur him the faster he would go backwards. Some of the places that he tried this were pretty rough and dangerous and it had to be stopped immediately. I spurred him and whipped him on the butt with the tail of my rope untill he shifted gears and went forward again then I would leave him alone. It took the better part of a really long day before he would quit doing that but he has never done it since and he will go anywhere I point him. I scratched his sides up a little and bruised him along the belly bad enough that it swelled up a little. I have never spurred a horse that bad before or since but I didn't spur one time after he stepped forward again.

I think most people let thier horses get away with WAY too much. If your horse refuses to cross water when you are out on the trail you absolutely should force it across. The more times you prove to your horse that you are scarier than the tree stump or plastic bag the braver your horse gets. The book that was quoted in the OP said that if a horse refused after it was fairly far along in its training then they would bend hooks on thier spurs and bloody thier sides. They did not do it to every horse and they did not do it to a young horse at the beginning of its training. 

Sometimes a horse has to realize that the monster on its back is the one it needs to be worried about instead of the one hiding down the trail. Once this happens then the horse gets much braver and also much less stressed by fear.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I agree with Kevin. While I do understand what you are saying ridergirl I don't subscribe to it. My whole point of riding is for fun and adventure, I like challenging rides (which is just as well!). The thing is I never put my horse into something that she can't do, I have absolute confidence that my horse can traverse things safely. I don't give a crap if she is scared because I KNOW what we are facing is safe as long as she keeps moving forward steadily, the minute she tries doing something silly like refusing or backing THEN we are going to be in trouble. So yes she may feel fear but I don't give a tiny rats because I am the leader and I know what is required to be safe more than she does. And if safety (for both of us) requires that I drive her forward THROUGH her fear using fair means or foul then that is exactly what I do.

We can discuss dangerous animals to until we are blue in the face. I live in a country where there are no predators, no snakes at all, nothing venemous or that bites. Yet I know horses here in New Zealand shy at bushes and noises as if a tiger is going to leap out at them. I know there is nothing dangerous here in this country so should I subscribe to my horses imagined fear or impose my own absolute certainty that there is no predator? And if I do let my horse treat every bush as if there is a tiger in it when I know for a fact there isn't then what kind of leader am I? I know not everyone lives in such a safe country and some of you do have to deal with predators but lets be honest how many times have people had horses refuse to do things when there is no predator or valid reason and the rider knows it - but still lets the horses fear take the lead?


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

haha oh dear you guys. I am pretty sure were on the same page but just different parts of the page. Haha I'm a little softer and approach it a different way, but were getting the same thing done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

smrobs said:


> I don't agree with the entire method (like the rubbing in of salt or gunpowder) but in situations like that, that is a quick and effective method to get a very obedient horse. That isn't the way that I do things, I don't believe in inflicting injury unless I truely have to. But then again, I have more time to get my horses trained than they probably did. I like to think that any one of mine would willingly charge into a bunch of men wearing armor and carrying swords but unless they are ever called to, I guess I'll never know LOL. However, I do know that they will face down a charging angry momma cow or pull anything that I can put a rope on and that's what I need. So I'm pretty happy with how mine behave and I have never had to draw blood with a spur to get them there.


Ditto :wink:


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## Amir (Nov 18, 2009)

You guys should come join me and Wild_Spot in Australia! We've got tons of poinonous snakes and spiders to share around!
Apparently we also have panthers in the outback, but I really don't know how true that is...

I'm all for forcing your horse into something that they think is scary, so long as it's safe to do so.
I once had my 3 year old rear up in fear and protest at going forward to investigate a LEAF that was stuck in a cobweb :shock:. Epic rear, but he went forward and then just stopped and sighed as if to say "oh...... that's it?"
I really believe that the more exposure, especially at a young age, the better. The sooner my horse realises it's pointless to say "mum I don't wanna", the better it's going to be for the both of us.

I would never bloody my horses sides. I don't use spurs unless I'm doing dressage with a particularly leg-ignorant horse and they're only 1cm long dummys. He's just about weaned off the spurs for dressage now as well.

My horse leapt over a white line painted on the ground because he thought it was going to jump up and eat him. I turned him around after laughing at him and then walked him over it until he didn't hesitate. I'll take 20 minutes out of our 45 minute riding time to wave a tree branch around until he doesn't give a hoot. He's figuring out that I'm not going to stop because he wants me to.

So long as we're smart not to cross the line to flat out abusing our horses, there's no problem. Horses need a strong leader.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

What amazes me is that everyone focuses on the 'blood'. *GASP* Heaven forbid that blood may be drawn on the horse! Is that really the only thing that people have gotten from that little book excerpt? Kevin pointed out that the horses were given the training to be an ameniable animal but didn't conform and so training went to the next level. The Bedouin had a goal for their horses and went to the lengths neccessary to achieve it. Honestly if my horse performed in a way that was potentially dangerous for us YES I would not hesitate to draw blood with my spurs (not that mine are sharp enough). Drawing blood is not the worst thing that can happen to a horse, geez I draw blood on a day to day basis because of the work I do, I haven't rolled over and died yet!


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

yes, if an animal was acting DANGOROUSLY I wouldn't hesitate at kickin it's butt if it was trying to hurt me or harm anyone, but when was that dangorous part mentioned?

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Well this is the bit where you have to use your common sense and realize that for a waring people ANY kind of unpredictable behaviour exhibited by a horse can not be tolerated as it is potentially life threatening. LIFE in the Sahara was dangerous I would imagine at the very least you would want, NEED, a steady reliable mount.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Also wanted to reiterate my point that it is not up to the horse to decide what is dangerous and what isn't. That is the job of the leader.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

I think some are trying to get at the point that perhaps this technique was necessary during that time but now it isn't, just from different directions. I'm not going to jab at my horse with spurs because I have other methods that work just as well without it.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

kiwigirl said:


> Well this is the bit where you have to use your common sense and realize that for a waring people ANY kind of unpredictable behaviour exhibited by a horse can not be tolerated as it is potentially life threatening. LIFE in the Sahara was dangerous I would imagine at the very least you would want, NEED, a steady reliable mount.


In my eyes, and maybe it's because of the kind of horsesive been around, if I tryed to make them a steady mount using that method, I would end up with a nervous wreck of a horse. Horses are always unpredictable, no matter how much work you do with them, there is always,and will always, be something out in the world that will send them into a state where they don't even remember the rider is on his back. 

Haha yes exactly roro, you get the point I'm trying to make across in a better way, haha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jagman6201 (Mar 13, 2009)

What I find ironic is the fact they they (the author of the book) are desiring a "fearless" horse, but in fact are creating a VERY fearful horse. Just, that the most fearful thing in the world to the horse is the rider and what the rider can inflict. 

Now, that being said -- I believe it is just a choice of the kind of relationship you want with your horse. My belief is in the times when this method was employed, friendship and a partnership with the horse wasn't the desired result. They were work horses. 

But now, we use horse for pleasure and some desire a certain partnership-like relationship with our horses. So, like myself - when Jag and I come across something that he is frightened of we confront it, but with only encouragement from me. In the end it is his choice (well, he thinks it is at least) to confront the object. I won't physically force him to, but I will take my time and dismount if necessary to lead him to the "scary" thing show him that it doesn't hurt me, so he can be assured that it won't him. Once he touches the object or goes where I want (such as a stream), we continue like nothing happened. I personally believe this makes a more self-confident horse and it at least works for me and my gelding because we have not confronted any "scary" things in a long, long time and we too are adventurous trail riders that like to explore.

That being said, I have the luxury of taking the time to work with my horse and I strive for a different relationship with him rather than a war or work horse. This does not mean one is better or "right", they're just different.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

jag, I want to hug you right now, you put it perfectly into words! Haha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> American Indians used different but equally harsh techniques for training thier horses.


Just curious, like what? 

I agree with the post though. When horse is a necessary part of life one must rely on in tough situations (and not fun or luxury like for lots of us) it's treated differently and there are good reasons for that.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Jag6201 said:


> But now, we use horse for pleasure and some desire a certain partnership-like relationship with our horses. So, like myself - when Jag and I come across something that he is frightened of we confront it, but with only encouragement from me. In the end it is his choice (well, he thinks it is at least) to confront the object. I won't physically force him to, but I will take my time and dismount if necessary to lead him to the "scary" thing show him that it doesn't hurt me, so he can be assured that it won't him.


I was taught a good lesson once from person who does lots of training of unhandled horses (including BLM mustangs) on trails. On my horse's first ever trail ride she refused to walk into the stream. That person made me get off, took the branch and smacked her butt forcing her to put front feet in stream. Did it hurt her? Not at all. Was her mind changed - SURE, I was able to get on and ride through the stream, she lost her fear of it because she realized it won't kill her. 

With that being said this approach would not work on my other horse, but it was a right one for this particular one.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> Horses are always unpredictable, no matter how much work you do with them, there is always,and will always, be something out in the world that will send them into a state where they don't even remember the rider is on his back.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Horses do not have to be unpreditable. There are very few suprises in my life anymore. I know my mount, he knows me and we ride in harmony.
While I personally have never drawn blood with spurs and don't think I could because of the nature of my spurs I wouldn't hesitate to bump him as hard as I could if he refused a gentle nudge.
If you fight a few battle at the beginning establishing dominance the road in future is alot smoother.
I fought a 5 or 10 minute fight over a mud hole way back in the beginning and that fight has never been fought again. NO matter what, I say forward and the horse moves forward.
Fighting a battle doesn't make a nervous horse, it makes a strong horse, a more confident horse.
I don't know how old you are, how experienced you are, how good a trainer/rider you are but listen to the older more experience riders, the ones without the problems and maybe, just maybe they can teach you something.

I have bet my life many a time on my horse, many a time.

One false move of a few feet means instant death to both of us.

No horses do not have to be unpredictable.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Horses do not have to be unpreditable. There are very few suprises in my life anymore. I know my mount, he knows me and we ride in harmony.
> While I personally have never drawn blood with spurs and don't think I could because of the nature of my spurs I wouldn't hesitate to bump him as hard as I could if he refused a gentle nudge.
> If you fight a few battle at the beginning establishing dominance the road in future is alot smoother.
> I fought a 5 or 10 minute fight over a mud hole way back in the beginning and that fight has never been fought again. NO matter what, I say forward and the horse moves forward.
> ...


 All horses can be unpredictable at times, and no matter how much training there will always be something out there that scares a horse, i can promise you that. Because as long as theres something out there that scares a human, there will be something that scares a horse. Horse are unpredictable unless you can predict the future, because not even they know exactly what they are going to do ahead. 

I have bet my life many a time on my horse, many a time

i have too, and will continue too, but that doesnt mean they arent unpredictable, some are more predictable, and you can be sure what they are going to do, but you cant be sure what the world is going to do, hence, not being able to predict the exact way they are going to do something.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> Horses do not have to be unpreditable. There are very few suprises in my life anymore. I know my mount, he knows me and we ride in harmony.
> While I personally have never drawn blood with spurs and don't think I could because of the nature of my spurs I wouldn't hesitate to bump him as hard as I could if he refused a gentle nudge.
> If you fight a few battle at the beginning establishing dominance the road in future is alot smoother.
> *I fought a 5 or 10 minute fight over a mud hole way back in the beginning and that fight has never been fought again*. NO matter what, I say forward and the horse moves forward.
> ...




Like you Riosdad, when Walka encountered his first stream crossing, he was very unsure if he should or not. While I wouldn't use the word battle for what I did, I did persist with calm and steady guidence that, yes we are crossing this stream and we are crossing right here where your nose is pointing at. 

So , while I agree with what you have stated, perhaps it's the "battle" that I wonder about, as my battles to the observer, are quite boring to watch. Still accomplish the task, and haven't had to revisit the lesson since with Walka, but I keep the "energy" calm and steady. Both my horses see me as the leader, but I am a calm/steady leader and have two very calm and steady horses. 

I suspect your horse is also a reflection of your energy and handling. Rio , I suspect , trusts you and does as asked because you have proven that you are a confident and trustworthy leader. Does he fear you, I suspect he obeys because he knows the concequences for disobeying, but even that may not be fear based. Could be he knows the right answer is soooo much simplier than the wrong!

I also believe that knowing your horse and riding in as many situations as possible can create a very predictable horse. Even when a horse gets scared, it should look to it's rider to determine what if anything should be done. That is what I work on with Walka, and so far he has demonstrated that he defers to me to decide. Oh yes, he shows by his ears, gait and muslce tensing that he is concerned, but he listens to me and it's fine. Maybe I'm just fortunate to have two "thinking" horses instead of "reactive" horses. Or , maybe its in the partnership between us. That would make an interesting study.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Walkamile said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> 
> I also believe that knowing your horse and riding in as many situations as possible can create a very predictable horse. Even when a horse gets scared, it should look to it's rider to determine what if anything should be done. That is what I work on with Walka, and so far he has demonstrated that he defers to me to decide. Oh yes, he shows by his ears, gait and muslce tensing that he is concerned, but he listens to me and it's fine. Maybe I'm just fortunate to have two "thinking" horses instead of "reactive" horses. Or , maybe its in the partnership between us. That would make an interesting study.


I do agree that riding in as many situations can make your horse more predictable, but there will always be things your horse hasnt seen, or experienced, But to me that unpradictablity, if i dont know weather my horse is going to turn right of left in a surprise situation, i call tha unpredictability. oh the difference in training methods and veiws on things :lol: haha


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Jag6201 said:


> What I find ironic is the fact they they (the author of the book) are desiring a "fearless" horse, but in fact are creating a VERY fearful horse. Just, that the most fearful thing in the world to the horse is the rider and what the rider can inflict.


I found that interesting too! Thank you for saying that in a better way than I ever would have. Haha

I agree with most everyone on this thread, all in different ways. I agree that I don't think a horse should ever realize that "no" is an answer but I also don't think drawing blood is necessary. 
Lacey's previous owner taught her that "no" was an a-okay thing to say and now I'm fighting a 25 year old battle to change that. 
We'll go out on the trail and she'll see a ditch she doesn't want to cross or a puddle she doesn't want to go through, and she will try to refuse. I, of course, don't let her do that and it usually boils down to a bunch of kicking and smacking with the end of my reins, but she goes over/through whatever it is eventually, now. 
Of course, sometimes she refuses to do something and that causes me to rethink what I'm asking her to do and I realize that it really isn't safe. If that's the case, I then ask her to get as close to whatever it is as possible, stand there, and then turn around only when I tell her to. I turn it into my idea so she doesn't realize that my intention was something different.

After being consistent for two years, she now doesn't fight me nearly as much as she did, but it would have been so much easier if she didn't know that "no" was an answer.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

ridergirl23 said:


> I do agree that riding in as many situations can make your horse more predictable, but there will always be things your horse hasnt seen, or experienced, But to me that unpradictablity, if i dont know weather my horse is going to turn right of left in a surprise situation, i call tha unpredictability. oh the difference in training methods and veiws on things :lol: haha


I see what you're saying and I certainly didn't mean that you could possibly expose your horse to everything out there. But, I do know that I can disengage my horse if needed and can control it so there will not be an explossion over anything new and scarey.

Only once has my girl T has actually been terrified. She was shaking all over. But, she listened to me and we stayed safe. To this day I don't know if it was a mountain lion or a bear that she caught wind of. Our foundation and miles together was something that I could count on. Especially now that her sight is leaving her. You'd not know it out on the trail. But I felt the difference in the saddle. Very little movement on myy part to get a response. 

This type of relationship takes time to develop. I am working on this with my other horse Walka. So far we have been tested and he responded instantly to my direction. Staying calm no matter what I truely believe has helped me in many hairy situations. I also focus on the moment and "shake" latter. :lol:

And I gotta agree about all the different training methods and views, but sometimes they really aren't that far apart. Just the "terms" used can conjour up a totally different impression. Like the word "battle". Like I said, my "battles" are down right boring to watch. They look like a chess match! :lol:


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> I do agree that riding in as many situations can make your horse more predictable, but there will always be things your horse hasnt seen, or experienced, But to me that unpradictablity, if i dont know weather my horse is going to turn right of left in a surprise situation, i call tha unpredictability. oh the difference in training methods and veiws on things :lol: haha


In the beginning I plan training runs every day to incorporate scary situations. I am fortune in that I have a construction company near, a huge dairy farm full of cattle, tractors and farm impliments.
I have a train, lots and lots of cars, trucks, busses and I incorporate all of them in his dialy rounds.
I have a forest, swamps with mud, steep grades and open fields.
He gets saturated with things. Even a mound of tires. I ride on garbage day and we use the garbage as obsticles.

He gets saturated with scary things , right from the beginning. He has to walk past running equipment, even passed under the shovel of a large power shuvel digging a hole. Walks throught the massive cattle barns.
Runs parks, crosses foot bridges, traffic lights, tunnels under the roadways.
In short. He runs into everything, he has to handle everything.
He quickly learns he can not refuse. he learns he can not spook, he must hold regardless of what is thrown at him.
Walking over plastic, small foot paths over rivers? all in a days work.

I have reached the point that I can't find anything left of do. Nothing frightens him, absolutely nothing. He doesn't spook when a big tom turkey comes right out the bush at his feet, deer leaping up, nothing.

What do you do after that??


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

Visit your local zoo!? :lol:


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

haha I do the same thing roisdad! "oooo that could be scary! lets go walk through it!!" 

but your horse hasnt handled everything, lets face it, theres no wild elephants in canada  haha i wish there was.

haha i think this little disagreement isnt training anymore, its started to be more of a veiw on things, haha. so lets just agree to disagree


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Rio, to me, that is the time to be the most careful. When you think that after so many experiences, that nothing in the world will spook him, that is the time that your guard comes down and something that should never bother him, does.

I'm nursing a pair of broken ribs from just that sort of thing.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

iridehorses said:


> Rio, to me, that is the time to be the most careful. When you think that after so many experiences, that nothing in the world will spook him, that is the time that your guard comes down and something that should never bother him, does.
> 
> I'm nursing a pair of broken ribs from just that sort of thing.


If you ride long enough, have a good enough seat you can sit just about anything. I do not ride with my legs clamped to his barrel. I ride relaxed, reins drooped but if he were to suddenly jump other then a slight sway I would budge.
I have been at it too long to be caught by a sudden movement and be thrown.
As for bolting he couldn't make a jump before I would have him hauled back on his haunches.

Again I have been around too long, spent to much time on a horse.

If I think back over the past 6 months I can't think of a single time he really spooked at anything. Given time , experience you can condition a horse to not spook , to not refuse because you are stronger, a better leader then them.

At no time does my appearance in the field bring anything but a horse coming to meet me.
A strong dominate leader doesn't instill fear in the horse.

The beduins loved their horses and often shared their tent on a cold night. They were noted for their horses.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

You know, I think most of you are missing something from the original post, and that's culture. Here you have a culture in which cruelty is a virtue, and kindness a sign of weakness. Naturally, people raised in this culture are going to be inclined towards what the culture teaches them. If they could get the same results with the same effort with "natural horsemanship", they would still chose their methods, because that's what their culture teaches them to enjoy.

Same reason Romans watched gladiators, or (some) Americans watch football, or go in for dog fighting.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> If you ride long enough, have a good enough seat you can sit just about anything. I do not ride with my legs clamped to his barrel. I ride relaxed, reins drooped but if he were to suddenly jump other then a slight sway I would budge.
> I have been at it too long to be caught by a sudden movement and be thrown.
> As for bolting he couldn't make a jump before I would have him hauled back on his haunches.
> 
> ...


ok, im going to say something, tha ive really wanted to say for a while, and it probably isnt going to sound great, but i just have to say it. haha

Riosdad, you sstrike me as one of those people who always thinks theyre right no matter what,and thinks they know everything. Your not right about everything and you dont know everything. 
Lets face it, no one does. 

so lets just all agree to disagree and have our own/different opinions. Most horse peolple do anyway :wink:


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

While I agree that "no" should not be an option I am always willing to listen to their option as long as it's valid. If we're galloping and there's a hole in front of me and my horse jumps it or yields around it, I'm not going to haul on their face and make them go in it. I have seen horses taught by the "fear the leader" method that would run right in that hole or over a cliff because "the leader said go this pace in a straight line". To me that's not a horse I want to be riding because it's dangerous. I am also ok with galloping my horse up a hill and he doesn't want to go in a perfectly straight line or wants to bow out a bit if he doesn't like the look of a fence line. But if I say you go straight through this narrow opening at this pace, he will do that too and respect that I say do it this way or else. I also don't always ride my horse with no leg or rein aids but I can and do on occasion. I have the option with my horse to let him do his own thing in the direction I have pointed him and the pace that I have set. But I also have the option to sit down, add the leg and the contact and be able to place each foot exactly where I want it and with my weight cue have him place it at the exact time I want. This was accomplished with many "battles" (some more spectacular than others), a lot of repetition and a lot of miles but I never had to bruise, bloody or instill fear in my horse. That's not to say crops, spurs and the occasional tree branch were not used to "bite" him when he needed it. The big difference IMO between requiring respect and instilling fear are when and how you go about doing it. If a horse stumbles or stops to look at something and you beat it mercilessly then it's going to be afraid of you not respect you. If a horse refuses to move forward and you put pressure on them and keep increasing the pressure on them until they move forward then they will respect that when you say forward they do it or it's going to get real uncomfortable for them fast. And once they move forward and whatever imaginary demon they thought was there isn't encountered then they learn even more respect for you because in their mind you vanquished the scary demon. 

I also think that the number one thing people have to remember is that there are now two different types of riders. There is the rider that doesn't want to be the leader, for whatever reason, and spends more time trying to figure out what their horse will spook at and trying to desensitize their horses to everything under the sun than they do riding. And when they do ride they are constantly looking for scary things and most times the horse picks up on this and acts the same way. Then there are the riders that get on and ride and expect their horses not to spook so they ride in a confident and relaxed manner and VOILA! they have confident and relaxed horses. Yes there is the training that needs to be put into a horse to make it "invincible" but if you put a timid, nervous, easily scared rider on a 100% trained "bombproof" horse and a confident, relaxed rider on a greener, spookier horse you can bet that they will probably act close to the same in any given situation. A nervous and timid rider can cause even a made horse to react in certain situations.

So for those that think their horse and their training is god-like I challenge you to find the most timid and nervous riders you can and put them on your horse and see if they can get your horse to do everything that you can (keeping safety in mind) and see how well that works out. And remember, nervous and timid riders are generally not the beginner riding group. In my experience, the intermediate riders are the most dangerous riders out there because they known enough about what can go wrong but don't have the skill set to fix a potential problem. Also, I think the training methods of the Bedouins have been beaten to death so I won't comment on that but remember they were practically born on horseback so they were all very skilled and knowledgeable horsemen that were training these war horses. I don't think they would have allowed unskilled novices to perform this kind of "training" on a horse, especially not a "problem horse". I have no problem with harsher training principles on a horse that truly needs them to become a functioning member of equine society but only in the hands of qualified and highly skilled individuals. In the hands of a skilled professional force is a wonderful training tool but in the unskilled hands of a novice it is abuse.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> Riosdad, you sstrike me as one of those people who always thinks theyre right no matter what,and thinks they know everything. :wink:


That's because I have never been in a barn or rode with anyone that had a horse that could beat mine in almost any area. NOt in obedience, manners, steadiness or training. I always had the best, always showed others how to do things.
Find me a partner to ride with that has the better horse and I will back down. Even as teenagers I always had the better horse, better trained, faster. It comes from 50 years of not having to look up to anyone.
And beleive me over those years I have been around alot of people , alot of horses.

I also spent 12 years in the obedience ring with dogs and almost never got beat no matter what the discipline. Held 13 titles at one time. Dogs, horses they are all the same.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

haha you should come to alberta! meet some of the great riders 'round here, except lots of them are in florida right now, and i have a feeling you would never get along with a bunch of the cocky cowboys around here, haha.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> haha you should come to alberta! meet some of the great riders 'round here, except lots of them are in florida right now, and i have a feeling you would never get along with a bunch of the cocky cowboys around here, haha.


If they are in Florida it means their horse are probably on long lay offs. My riding partner goes to Florida for 6 months, then comes back and rides with me for 6 months.
How dedicated does this make them to their horse.
The LONGEST layoff for me ever was 3 weeks when my wife made me go to Europe. That is by far the longest layoff I have ever had and it bothered me. I don't beleive in laying off anything.

I am also not a big fan of haw who cowboys


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> If they are in Florida it means their horse are probably on long lay offs. My riding partner goes to Florida for 6 months, then comes back and rides with me for 6 months.
> How dedicated does this make them to their horse.
> The LONGEST layoff for me ever was 3 weeks when my wife made me go to Europe. That is by far the longest layoff I have ever had and it bothered me. I don't beleive in laying off anything.
> 
> I am also not a big fan of haw who cowboys


 oh lord no, haha theyre down in florida training for two monthes with their horse, and theyre coming back in like, 15 days or something, with their horse. I dont know the longest lay-off her horse had wasnt longer then 2 weeks, maybe not even a week.She might go travel around europe doing shows with her horse sometime... we will see how that goes, im not sure if she will or not.

haha ya, there are quite a fewof those cowboys around here :? they can get annoying sometimes. haha


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Oh Geez, I'm late again, darn. I am going to be with RiosDad on this one I do believe. My guy has been with me through what some would call some pretty trying situations, he will never refuse to go where I tell him its ok. He has been attacked by dogs with me on his back, yet he didn't panic, I'm pretty sure the dogs were hurting a little more by the end of it, I just had a few wounds to tend to on his hind end. 

I think its funny how people say "all horses are different, all horses have their own personality", yet they can't get away from the human emotion of "all force and all pain causes fear to any horse". You see, there are different actions do that go into different categories of behavior. Bucking, rearing, and disrespect of space or refusal to move forward are all fight characteristics, all of which are described in that book. I did not read that they would spur the crap out of a bolting horse, which would be a fearful horse already in a fearful state. Horses that are already in a "fight" frame of mind are asking for just that, a fight. To get rid of the fight, you must instill flight (even on as small of a level as "move from pressure") to make progress. What do we always say? Increase pressure until you get the desired response? Yes, we have the luxary of time on our side, but if I come to an obstacle that I know is safe, I will be crossing it. A horse that is sticking, refusing, or even moving backwards is already in a fight frame of mind. If that horse is showing fear of what is in front of it, then backing off and saying "its ok, we will sit here until you are used to that scary looking piece of trash", is not going to give it confidence. When any horse that I'm on or handling shows fear towards anything, my main focus is to get their attention back on me, back on the leader, because they need to be looking to me before reacting. If their focus is on something else, then there is a chance that when they react, they could land on me. So yes, I will use whatever means necessary however hard as may be necessary to bring that horse back to me.

So no, I know that this does not instill fear in the horse because what you are seeing as fear is misdirected. I remember as a teenager when I took on a project of retraining an ex-bucking horse (rodeo bronc) that had been through 3 trainers prior to me. I had done plenty of ground work with him, but I'd seen this horse give his best bucks and I was afraid to get on his back. My Dad made me, he told me "get on that horse, I won't let you get bucked off". I did't want to, but he didn't let up until I was on his back. I sold that horse as a solid trail horse, and got compliments over a year later when someone at his barn found out I had trained him. You see, the fear that I had was directed towards the horse, my dad was that old war horse rider, pushing and pushing me until I faced my fears and defeated them. Had that horse bucked me off, I would have lost faith in Dad, but he didn't let me get hurt, and I trust him completely to keep me safe. Just as the horse does when the rider makes the horse face its fears. You aren't instilling fear of the human in the horse by making them do something. If they were that afraid of the human, then they wouldn't be so worried about that stupid trash can. If I knew then what I know now, I could have read that old bucking horse a lot better and known just what I was getting into as I climbed on his back, but that came with that experience. If I had not been pushed, then I don't know if I would have conquered my fear on my own and that horse may still be sitting in my pasture and doing groundwork. But I was pushed, I learned new things, I made progress, and I was scared out of my mind, not of who was pushing me, but what they were pushing me into. Dad knew that I would be ok, and I had to trust that. Since then, I've trained the untrainable more times than I can count, but Dad's still the one pushing my line, making me face that fear so that I can make progress. Come to think of it, he was the one that jacked those fences up the other day when I was schooling a pony even though I haven't jumped in almost 10 years...... 

As far as the violence is strong, kindness is weakness, yes, that is how people used to be, yet, that is still how horses are. They don't follow the kinder horses, they follow the horse that they know is capable of keeping them safe.

Knowing how horses minds work, I do think the salt and gunpowder stuff is a bit overkill. However, I think a lot of horses (and a lot of kids!) would be better off if they were pushed through their fears a little more often by a good leader.

Also, notice that in the book, it said that the horse would follow the handler like a dog after they had been spurred, similar to how that new horse in the pasture follows my lead horse even though he just took a chunk out of her butt for bad behavior. 

I'd love to go for a ride with you one day RiosDad, I'm sure that I could learn a lot.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

jamesqf said:


> You know, I think most of you are missing something from the original post, and that's culture. Here you have a culture in which cruelty is a virtue, and kindness a sign of weakness. Naturally, people raised in this culture are going to be inclined towards what the culture teaches them. If they could get the same results with the same effort with "natural horsemanship", they would still chose their methods, because that's what their culture teaches them to enjoy.
> 
> Same reason Romans watched gladiators, or (some) Americans watch football, or go in for dog fighting.


Totally agree. And some think that riding through raging rivers and driving snow is superior to developing a decent piaffe.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Beling said:


> Totally agree. And some think that riding through raging rivers and driving snow is superior to developing a decent piaffe.


 
Who said you have to choose one over the other? :wink:


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Thank you flitterbug! I have been trying to say that all along. As a human we can rationalise fear better than a horse so it is up to us to push them through their fear. As riosdad says, and I agree, it only takes a handful of small battles early on to get the horse to realise the rider knows best, has never put them in harms way and protects them from danger. Also as Kevin has stated it is up to the horse to determine the level of the battle that ensues. Letting a horse decide what is dangerous on a ride is silly and makes no sense, when a person knows that everything the horse fears is infact all in the horses head. I think that a big part of training a horse is to teach it that your instincts are better than the horses therefore you are a far more capable leader - teach that and all the battles disappear.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Of course natural horsemanship had to come up. Why is what the bedouin did so far removed from natural horsemanship? As I understand it a big part of natural horsemanship is about making the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard or am I thinking of good horsemanship?

I found it really interesting when I went to Buck Brannaman clinic. I only made it for 1 day out of 3 but that day was very, very interesting. During the course of the afternoon the horse that Buck was riding developed a very strong and innapropriate bond with another horse in the arena. Buck made jokes about the two horses being in love and it was obviously annoying and distracting as the two horses called to each other and tried to be together all the time. So he fixed the problem he deliberately rode his horse to the other, when they were together he then gave his horse a MIGHTY - and I mean a legs up and down as hard as he could - jab with his spurs, while at the same time smacking the horse on the *** with his rope, his horse kicked out and caught the other horse and for a couple of minutes it became chaos. He did this periodically through the session and funnily enough the two horses that were magnetically attracted suddenly didn't want to be together anymore because being together was painful and uncomfortable. I dont see how this is much different than the Bedouins.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Amen to Flitterbug - Pretty much encapsulated my thoughts, perfectly :]


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> There is the rider that doesn't want to be the leader...


Remember, though, that there's a difference between being a leader and being a dictator. As you said earlier, I don't want a horse that'll run straight into the guns at Balaclava if I tell it to: I want one that'll say (nicely) "Sorry, boss, but I just can't do that."

Maybe I'm just showing my ignorance, but I figure a horse is like a dog in at least one way: both have senses that work differently than mine. Better noses, better night vision (there've been many nights when I hiked a last mile or two of trail in the dark, following a waving white tail), and in the horse, better peripherial vision. If I'm not taking advantage of these senses... well, what does that say about me?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Dictators are usually very effective leaders. They get things done quickly and simply without alot of waiting around and voting i.e. Autobahn, Great Pyramids, Great Wall of China. We have a representitive democracy and can't get a couple hundred miles of fence built to keep out pregnant mexican woman and fruit pickers.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> *Dictators are usually very effective leaders.* They get things done quickly and simply without alot of waiting around and voting i.e. Autobahn, Great Pyramids, Great Wall of China. We have a representitive democracy and can't get a couple hundred miles of fence built to keep out pregnant mexican woman and fruit pickers.


Sure, if you're a fan of corrupt politics and oppression. Fan of Mao?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

roro said:


> Sure, if you're a fan of corrupt politics and oppression. Fan of Mao?


I never said they were nice. I said the got stuff done. Dictators are also fairly efficent at murdering a few million of thier own people. I was not speaking about morals of leadership only the efficency. Dictators are efficent leaders right up to the revolution when they have thier headless corpse dragged though the streets to the cheers of peasants.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> We have a representitive democracy and can't get a couple hundred miles of fence built to keep out pregnant mexican woman and fruit pickers.


that made me laugh! 

I think the key point to this post is that a horse should have enough respect/trust in their rider/leader to face anything which their leader tells them does not pose a direct threat to their life. While I personally wouldn't go to the lengths of drawing blood, I will become more forceful if my horse acts in an unacceptable way. And I'm sure that if my life absolutely depended on that horse doing what it was told to do, the way it would in the midst of a war, then I wouldn't see drawing a little blood as the worst possible outcome.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I never said they were nice. I said the got stuff done. Dictators are also fairly efficent at murdering a few million of thier own people. I was not speaking about morals of leadership only the efficency. Dictators are efficent leaders right up to the revolution when they have thier headless corpse dragged though the streets to the cheers of peasants.


Are you kidding? Dictators such as Mao knew squat nothing about economies and politics. The great leap forward was nothing but a complete and utter catastrophe. Are you saying that if you ride like a dictator, you will make your horse do everything but in the end they will kill you? I'd advise you not to use this metaphor since it makes little sense. I get what you mean about the rider being an efficient leader, but any rider that rides like a dictator is a crappy one in my opinion.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

roro said:


> Are you kidding? Dictators such as Mao knew squat nothing about economies and politics. The great leap forward was nothing but a complete and utter catastrophe. Are you saying that if you ride like a dictator, you will make your horse do everything but in the end they will kill you? I'd advise you not to use this metaphor since it makes little sense.


I think you're making a geo-political mountain out of a tongue-in-cheek mole hill. All my horses and I are conservatives (I had a moderately liberal horse but I sent it to slaughter) and we do not support the opression of any ethnicity (or breed) and will shout (or niegh) our support of freedom for all people (and horses) from the highest mountain.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I think you're making a geo-political mountain out of a tongue-in-cheek mole hill. All my horses and I are conservatives (I had a moderately liberal horse but I sent it to slaughter) and we do not support the opression of any ethnicity (or breed) and will shout (or niegh) our support of freedom for all people (and horses) from the highest mountain.


Really? I thought I was being historically accurate, nothing more. The metaphor was flawed, and I pointed it out. Simple as that.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Mountain ^ Molehill .


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

jamesqf said:


> Remember, though, that there's a difference between being a leader and being a dictator. As you said earlier, I don't want a horse that'll run straight into the guns at Balaclava if I tell it to: I want one that'll say (nicely) "Sorry, boss, but I just can't do that."
> 
> Maybe I'm just showing my ignorance, but I figure a horse is like a dog in at least one way: both have senses that work differently than mine. Better noses, better night vision (there've been many nights when I hiked a last mile or two of trail in the dark, following a waving white tail), and in the horse, better peripherial vision. If I'm not taking advantage of these senses... well, what does that say about me?


Yes that is a very valid point. I think that this is up to a rider to demonstrate common sense. Where I live slips and mudslides are normal and common, after a good rain I go for a ride expecting to come across slips on the tracks. I weigh up the width, depth and content of a slip on a track, if I can't see over it that is a pretty good clue that we wont make it across. If it is a small sliip but full of boulders and tree limbs I wont try it, if it is a sloppy muddy mess but not very big we will forge on through, I use my common sense and I make the decision as to cross or not to cross. I dont think that anyone is suggesting that being a kamikaze rider is demonstrating good leadership.


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## Marrissa (Feb 4, 2007)

While yes my horse will do what I tell him to do I'm not about to torture him to do it. If you're leaving marks, scars, and bruises on your horse with your "training" you are being abusive. Whipping them till they get welts will probably get the job done faster yes but they'll end up whip shy. I don't want my horse always eyeballing me to try and predict if I'm going to whip him again. 

My last horse didn't feel like going down the bank into the water and out the other side. I kept asking and nudging him till I got to kicking (no spurs on) and clicking till he went in. He certainly was not sore after it and soon found out I wasn't asking him to walk into a black hole.

My current horse is scared of cows. Every way we go for walks (he's only two) we have to walk past cows. We do a lot of stop and go. Staring at the cows and inching forward. It takes longer but if I were to pull out the whip that'd only make the experience unpleasant while I'm showing him that they aren't anything to be scared of. That's like spanking a kid for being scared of what's under the bed.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

I like to think of myself as a benevolent monarch and not merely a dictator but the philosophy is quite the same. When push comes to shove there is no vote, there is no try and there is no room for argument. There is a horse doing what I want or there is hell to pay and how much hell is completely dependent on how much they want to fight or refuse, no more and no less.

Now what I meant about not wanting a horse to run over a cliff just because I told it to is a double edged sword. If I am not 100% confident in a situation then I don't expect my horse to be either. And I'm not stupid or naive enough to think that my senses and perceptions are always right. If I think my horse knows a better way out of a predicament or rough terrain or whatever then I will hand over the reins so to speak and let him get me home or at least to relative safety. But that doesn't mean that I let my horse make every little decision on the trail. Whether or not to pass the scary stump, go into the dark woods we've been through a million times or whether or not to go through the mud puddle is not debatable, not contestable or arguable. He WILL go where I tell him if I am 100% sure that he will be safe doing so. And I will back this up with as much intensity as he gives me. There were days in the beginning of our relationship where we danced, piaffed, reared, struck out, bucked, etc in place for 10 minutes because he refused to go forward and I refused to accept anything less. As stated by others, after a few of those days he generally accepted that at least 9/10 times he wasn't going to get me off and he was going to waste a lot of energy,be very uncomfortable and still do what I wanted so he might as well go along with it. And then magically he found out that being a brave little trail horse is actually quite fun and he enjoyed it. Trail riding = no arena work and he has come to appreciate that fact.

Does he fear me? Definitely not. Does he respect me? Yes. Does he occasionally still test me just to make sure that I'm sure that's what I want and to make sure I'm still awake up there? Oh yea. But it's more of a game with him now to double check my sincerity about stupid things and when push comes to shove in serious situations he's right there with me. Could he be a more uncomplicated ride? Sure. Do I like him the way he is? Yes. It's all personal preference as to how you want your horse to act and how much you want to allow them a say in matters. But for everyone it should boil down to; if you tell him to jump then he needs to ask you how high when the cards are on the table at the very least, if not all the time.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

jamesqf said:


> Remember, though, that there's a difference between being a leader and being a dictator. As you said earlier, I don't want a horse that'll run straight into the guns at Balaclava if I tell it to: I want one that'll say (nicely) "Sorry, boss, but I just can't do that."
> 
> Maybe I'm just showing my ignorance, but I figure a horse is like a dog in at least one way: both have senses that work differently than mine. Better noses, better night vision (there've been many nights when I hiked a last mile or two of trail in the dark, following a waving white tail), and in the horse, better peripherial vision. If I'm not taking advantage of these senses... well, what does that say about me?


 
I remember a paint gelding that I was working with years ago. He was very intelligent, and definately tested who was in charge. We had come along well together and one day we were coming to cross the same ditch that we did every day, usually a couple feet deep in water. He usually crossed with no hesitation, but one day he stopped in his tracks and would not move. Part of being a good leader is not just telling, but also listening. Recognizing some horse language is completely bazaar to some people, but I looked at this guy and knew something was wrong. He wasn't showing signs of stubborness or fear, and he never turned and tried to go back, he just wanted to wait. So I listened to him, I sat and waited. About 30 seconds later, a rather large water mocassin came down the ditch, swam right by us standing on the waters edge and continued on its way down the ditch. I gave the horse a squeeze and he walked right through with no hesitation. How he knew something was wrong is beyond me, but I knew him well enough to know that he would not refuse my judgement unless he knew better. You have to look beneath the surface to have that conversation with a horse, they are not like something that comes with a solid set of instructions.

This is why I don't believe in anyones "methods". I've worked with dangerous horses that think its ok to try and kill people. I've also worked with horses that thought that a person was the scariest thing in the world. The amount of pressure that is used on each horse is going to vary. I've used a lot of pressure on those horses that reared up and started striking at the sight of me. I've never hesitated to put a formerly fearful horse in their place when they realize I'm not a predator, but a herd member that they have to figure out where I am in the pecking order. Just because one person can get a horse through something with a certain amount of pressure does not mean that the same amount of pressure will be used for every horse. Matching the pressure to the situation is an acquired skill and why trainers get results with horses so much faster than a novice because they are able to adapt to the situation that much faster.

Another thing to remember is that horses communicate through body language. If the original language isn't acknowledged, it is followed with physical force. I don't see a horse being afraid of cows and hitting it to push it through similar to spanking a kid for being afraid of whats under the bed because its not punishment, its guidance, its a form of communication that the horse is already familiar with. For a horse, that physical reinforcement would be more like telling the kid "I am here, I am setting this path, and I will not let anything hurt you, just follow me". If I'm on a young horse that is afraid of something on the right side of the road, I push forward, if they are simply bending away from it, I will use my left leg, keeping their mental breakdown under my calm control.

Something else to ponder, I know when I first brought my QH filly out to work cows, she was a little unsure of herself, I guess no one ever told her that her grandpa was Blue Valentine. I pushed her through them, and the next thing I knew, she was thinkin "check this out, I can push these things around!". That filly was bred for that work and she was bred to fight. She was bred to have the confidence and the strength to make the decisions of a working horse. These horses were bred to hold up to hard work and keep good muscle, be highly pain tolerant with minimal room for complaining. With that, these horses also get the idea to ask "why?" of their human. I'm sure that these war horses were bred for their purpose, if you want a horse brave enough to fight, you can only assume that these horses had a lot of fight in them that probably had to be met with more pressure than we have to use on our every day horses.


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## Marrissa (Feb 4, 2007)

I still don't see how whipping him to get him past the cows would work. He'd just be even more tense to go past them. He'd end up being even more flighty around them and be trying to watch me to see if he's going to get the whip again and watch the cows to see if they'll eat him. I used that comparison because the kid would be scared and the parent spanking them for being scared wouldn't make the kid any less afraid of what's underneath the bed. 

I don't let my horse decided whether or not we do something. I just make his life hard when he decides we shouldn't until he agrees that we should. I don't want a horse to just obey me without a question. Like mentioned I want feedback from my horse. He's got sharper senses than me. I don't want my horse afraid of me either. When walking past the cows I like that he's always watching me to check make sure I'm not worried of them. If I keep walking unafraid forward he's more keen to follow right behind me to make sure he doesn't get left with the cows by himself.

Edit: To add I'm not against using the whip to reprimand a horse. If he gets shovey he gets a good smack. A alpha horse would give him good kick for that. Just punishing a horse for being afraid doesn't make much sense to me.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*Excellent posts!*

Every rider should have the story of the water moccasin engraved on his heart! Listening to your horse's horse sense can save your life! I read another, years ago: in a war, a mounted soldier was riding down a road, & his trusty mount suddenly stopped & wouldn't proceed for all of the efforts of the soldier to get him to. Then a bomb exploded a short distance ahead! :mrgreen:


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Dictators are usually very effective leaders. They get things done quickly and simply without alot of waiting around and voting i.e. Autobahn, Great Pyramids, Great Wall of China. We have a representitive democracy and can't get a couple hundred miles of fence built to keep out pregnant mexican woman and fruit pickers.


Sure, that was my point: dictators force things to be done without worrying whether it's a good idea to do them. Couple of those examples you cite didn't turn out so hot, now did they? And of course there are others, the mention of which would violate Godwin's Law. Whereas building a wall to keep out fruit pickers means the fruit doesn't get picked, and I rather like having strawberries on my breakfast cereal


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Marrissa, its all in how you look at it. Remember, two different riders can give the same command to the same horse and get different results, its all in the meaning behind it, that sense that many people have forgotten to use, yet animals can interpret so well. We tend to think of mechanical actions, when what they are reading most is body language and inner feelings.

Working in a rescue facility, I see a lot of people that immediately interpret any kind of physical contact as abuse or punishment. I see it as that, but more so as communication. A whip is an aide, it doesn't have to be used as a tool of punishment, but can be used as a tool of communication. I do not punish my horses for not passing something. If you do that, then your focus is on whatever it is they are afraid of, all they interpret from your emotion is that there is something there that warrants interest. If a lead horse wants to go somewhere and another horse is in their way, they will push that horse out of the way. They are not seeing it as punishment, they are seeing it as communication. Remember, their brains don't work like that. In fact, I've used my horse to push insecure horses through things before when that horses rider isn't up to par. Its not punishment, its encouragement in a manner that they already understand. Even though the actions may look the same, its all in your intentions behind it. I don't think "bad horse, you are scared of cows". I am thinking "there is nothing to be afraid of, so go where I ask you to go." The horse will interpret your meaning easily, as long as you really know what you want.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I live in Canada. Water mocassins, road side bombs don't exist in our country. There is absolutely nothing dangerous nature wise, nothing dangerous from man other then getting hit by a car.
No I don't want my horse using his instincts. I want him to carry on regardless of where I point him.
I am 12 times his age, smarter and know the country far better then he does. I use my head to decide if something is safe. He has no choice, doesn't even try to express an opinion and he is a happy boy.

sort of like me trying a tell my wife on what to wear.:lol::lol: I am way out of my league.
We should all stick to what we know best.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Really interesting reading, Rios, and great responses! 



NittanyEquestrian said:


> *I like to think of myself as a benevolent monarch and not merely a dictator but the philosophy is quite the same. When push comes to shove there is no vote, there is no try and there is no room for argument. There is a horse doing what I want or there is hell to pay and how much hell is completely dependent on how much they want to fight or refuse, no more and no less.*
> 
> Now what I meant about not wanting a horse to run over a cliff just because I told it to is a double edged sword. *If I am not 100% confident in a situation then I don't expect my horse to be either. And I'm not stupid or naive enough to think that my senses and perceptions are always right.* If I think my horse knows a better way out of a predicament or rough terrain or whatever then I will hand over the reins so to speak and let him get me home or at least to relative safety. But that doesn't mean that I let my horse make every little decision on the trail. Whether or not to pass the scary stump, go into the dark woods we've been through a million times or whether or not to go through the mud puddle is not debatable, not contestable or arguable. *He WILL go where I tell him if I am 100% sure that he will be safe doing so. *And I will back this up with as much intensity as he gives me. There were days in the beginning of our relationship where we danced, piaffed, reared, struck out, bucked, etc in place for 10 minutes because he refused to go forward and I refused to accept anything less. As stated by others, after a few of those days he generally accepted that at least 9/10 times he wasn't going to get me off and he was going to waste a lot of energy,be very uncomfortable and still do what I wanted so he might as well go along with it. And then magically he found out that being a brave little trail horse is actually quite fun and he enjoyed it. Trail riding = no arena work and he has come to appreciate that fact.
> 
> *Does he fear me? Definitely not. Does he respect me? Yes. Does he occasionally still test me just to make sure that I'm sure that's what I want and to make sure I'm still awake up there? Oh yea. But it's more of a game with him now to double check my sincerity about stupid things and when push comes to shove in serious situations he's right there with me. Could he be a more uncomplicated ride? Sure. Do I like him the way he is? Yes. It's all personal preference as to how you want your horse to act and how much you want to allow them a say in matters. But for everyone it should boil down to; if you tell him to jump then he needs to ask you how high when the cards are on the table at the very least, if not all the time.*


^This is about the closest to my feelings on the matter, and you've put it much more eloquently than I could have, Nittany. Some things are just not up for discussion, and my horse will say yes eventually, no matter how many times in a row I repeat myself, I will not take no for an answer once I ask the question. However, if the level of encouragement that I would need to give him leaves cuts or welts behind, I tend to reevaluate how I'm asking the question. 

I'm a bit of a history nut, and I really enjoy reading older horse training books. I have one published around 1915 on general training and riding, with a chapter on some upper-level dressage and jumping, and it definitely has a military flavor to it (the author was military of some division... I can't recall off the top of my head). However, there is a world of difference between ye olde warhorse and my jack-of-all-trades-to-be pleasure/recreation mount. I almost wish I could go "THEN" and see the horses in action, and compare them to the modern-trained horses I know across the spectrum of methodologies that we have today, and see what I see. :wink:

Great thread, looking forward to reading more!


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Goggle Commanche?? He was a war horse and stood while recieving numerous wounds but still held his place. Should he have decided for General Custard when to leave????

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comanche_(horse)


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

This thread started with a description of training a fearless horse for use in war. Here are a few facts to keep you interested.

Yorkist King Richard 3rd lost his crown and his life at Bosworth in 1485 because he was knocked off his horse and could not run away when he was surrounded by Lancastrians. 
Hence: 'my kingdom for a horse'. 

In 1854 during a pointless war in the Crimea, the Light Brigade made a useless charge against a battery of Russian artillery largely because the aristocratic officer in charge misunderstood the orders. Capt Nolan was partly the reason for the misunderstanding but he paid the ultimate price and was himself killed during the charge. Ironically it was the same Capt Nolan who had devised and organised the fast training of cavalry remounts for the British Army. His system was designed to produce within a few months a horse for the cavalryman which would charge en masse against anything: rifles, artillery - you name it. On the other hand, the officer's horses were trained to act independently - indeed in that era many officers bought and trained their own 'chargers'.

The charges of both the Light Brigade and the Heavy Brigade were a complete failure during which a third of the cavalrymen were killed for no positive gain - except perhaps immortality. The number of horses lost was not recorded but most likely they filled the need for food. They would have been eaten either by the British or the Russian troops. 
Later Lord Tennyson wrote a poem which glorified the stupidity of the Light Brigade but we Brits are like that. 
22 years later, Custer, another cavalry general, made his last stand He too will probably be immortalised. 

In the First World War the British shipped in 1914 a significant force of cavalry to the Western Front in France, the idea being to exploit any breakthrough but whilst there were one or two minor charges, horses were used largely for transport or recreational purposes. The machine gun and later in 1917 the tank had made horses obsolete as a weapon of war. 

Horses were use in Hitler's Army during the second world war especially on the Eastern front where roads were non existent but by then a horse was regarded as being a beast of burden rather than a weapon. Whenever a horse died in war then it could be eaten. 
In 1939 the Polish cavalry charged gallantly the invading German tanks of course with no good result. 

In 2010 the British keep in London a regiment of cavalry and a company of horse artillery to amuse the tourists but those same soldiers are currently fighting in Afghanistan and are riding about in light tanks. The magnificent horses are stabled in central London and can be seen by visitors. 

Today the real descendants of the war horse are those used by the Mounted Police. You'll see them in London monitoring demonstrations. The horses are specially selected, specially trained and very carefully looked after. They don't have to fear tigers, snakes or any wild animals, but they do have to cope with wild humans from all over the world and the horrendous traffic of one of the world's most congested cities. Police horses have to face: ball bearings, mace, broken bottles, knives, bricks and the occasional petrol bomb. The training of these magnificent and fearless creatures takes years.

Come over and see them for yourself. The Pound is cheap.

Barry G


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Goggle Commanche?? He was a war horse and stood while recieving numerous wounds but still held his place. Should he have decided for General Custard when to leave????
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comanche_(horse)


 Ummm.... didn't Custard die? So the answer to that question could be yes!:lol: (I am being a smart **** by the way)


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## Marrissa (Feb 4, 2007)

FlitterBug said:


> I am thinking "there is nothing to be afraid of, so go where I ask you to go." The horse will interpret your meaning easily, as long as you really know what you want.


lol this is what I'm trying to say. So I think we're meaning the same thing just putting it different ways.  I give him a pat when he starts trembling (he did this the first dozen times going past them) and keep walking forward. Sometimes we just stop and I let him eat the weeds while watching the cows. I don't make the cows a big deal just include them on our outing. I don't see his fear as something to be punished I just try to show him whatever he's afraid of is not scary. There've been times that I've totally agreed with the horse in his assessment of "lets get out of here as fast as possible!". Like when we had a pack of dogs chasing us that weren't afraid of getting kicked or ran over by my horse and they wouldn't stop with me yelling at them to go home.

My original posts were mostly referring to the replies of the use of spurs to inflict pain and using the whip the point where you leave bruises. I think of them as aids that more attention should be taken when using them as to not be abusive. I've competed against cowboy type guys at the rodeo kicking their horses as hard as they can with huge spurs on. That's not fair to the horses. 

Sure if the horses isn't going forward ask and keep escalating it until they do what you ask but be fair about it. I have no problem with using the whip or spurs. I myself use them (though I don't use spurs that much mostly just a crop).


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

KiwiGirl - Comanche wasn't even Custer's horse  Besides that there other surviving horses (and even a yellow bulldog apparently). I read a book about Comanche as a child, but it wasn't entirely factual.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Dad, please admit that the two stories cited show that the human ain't always smarter than the horse!


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Goggle Commanche?? He was a war horse and stood while recieving numerous wounds but still held his place. Should he have decided for General Custard when to leave????


You know, I think that link, filled with errors as it is, pretty well demonstrates my point. A horse that hadn't been trained to absolute obedience would most likely have taken to its heels on seeing a couple of thousand Lakota & Cheyenne warriors heading its way, thus displaying far more sense than Custer did


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Mountain ^ Molehill .


I wouldn't want anyone to believe such a ridiculous statement and that's why I pointed it out. It's okay to be wrong sometimes.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Wow, this topic has taken off. Sad facts, Barry. Horses have been so very important to humans, and we continue to abuse him. And often as not, those who are interested in some alternative way, are ridiculed. As for teaching a horse to accept pain and death. . .well, I've never quite understood the human race.

Flitterbug, my comment wasn't about survival vs art; but the attitude that one was MORE IMPORTANT.


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## Kaioti (Dec 3, 2009)

Oh, it is all about context isn't it. WAR HORSE. A horse for war. Shouldn't it be more afraid of it's rider than what is going on? If it wasn't how could it be trusted...And you get that obedience anyway you can.

...It bugs me to hear people who sound like they aren't in charge of their animals...that's an accident waiting to happen. Sorry kids...no rainbows and butterflys. 

Try some WORK. Work is the middle ground between your broken inexperienced neck and abuse. I like work.


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## Rule of Reason (Feb 11, 2010)

riosdad said:


> general custard


lol lol


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Kaioti said:


> Oh, it is all about context isn't it. WAR HORSE. A horse for war. Shouldn't it be more afraid of it's rider than what is going on? If it wasn't how could it be trusted...And you get that obedience anyway you can.
> 
> ...It bugs me to hear people who sound like they aren't in charge of their animals...that's an accident waiting to happen. Sorry kids...no rainbows and butterflys.
> 
> Try some WORK. Work is the middle ground between your broken inexperienced neck and abuse. I like work.


 what were all trying to say is there is more then one way to get an obiediant horse. Just because some people dont "be in charge" of their horse the same way you are doesnt mean they arent. same goal, different ways to get there


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> what were all trying to say is there is more then one way to get an obiediant horse. Just because some people dont "be in charge" of their horse the same way you are doesnt mean they arent. same goal, different ways to get there


I feel and this is from being around boarding barns for a few decades and I do get a good cross section of people , that the majority MAJORITY of people never get there. There are very few people who have obedient horses under all situations. Every horse I can think of in the past has had flaws, things that set them off, things they did regardless of what their owners wanted.

I think back on my long past and none of them had quirks, not a one.
Why do you think that was?????


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

ridergirl23 said:


> what were all trying to say is there is more then one way to get an obiediant horse. Just because some people dont "be in charge" of their horse the same way you are doesnt mean they arent. same goal, different ways to get there


These were war horses, not someone's pet. These people did not have time to play 7 games with them and turn them into circus horses. They had a very important and dangerous job to do, not just carry a child around on a pink saddle. The difference is astronomical and to compare it to what we need them for today is just silly.

Oh, and "yes" ... you are either in full control of your horse's every movement or you are out of control - there is no middle ground.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I feel and this is from being around boarding barns for a few decades and I do get a good cross section of people , that the majority MAJORITY of people never get there. There are very few people who have obedient horses under all situations. Every horse I can think of in the past has had flaws, things that set them off, things they did regardless of what their owners wanted.
> QUOTE]
> Ive seen that a lot too, oh god, haha ive spent to much time helping people catch their runaway horses at shows *slaps hand to forehead*
> or ive seen people say there horse is behing disrespectful, so they take them in the ring and pretty much scary the bejesus out of them by hitting them with the flag.... i have no idea how they think that gets respect...:-|


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

iridehorses said:


> Oh, and "yes" ... you are either in full control of your horse's every movement or you are out of control - there is no middle ground.


But if I wanted full control of every movement, I'd buy a dirt bike.

As I think of it (and again, I might just be displaying my own ignorance), I don't actually want to have to have full control of every movement, because a horse is a lot better at being a horse than I'll ever be. What I want, in some ideal world, is to be able to trust the horse to do its job of being a horse, which includes telling me about things I may not see, or that some task I'm asking of it is beyond its abilities. That in turn means the horse needs to trust me to listen, and do the job of being a rider.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

jamesqf said:


> But if I wanted full control of every movement, I'd buy a dirt bike.
> 
> As I think of it (and again, I might just be displaying my own ignorance), I don't actually want to have to have full control of every movement, because a horse is a lot better at being a horse than I'll ever be. What I want, in some ideal world, is to be able to trust the horse to do its job of being a horse, which includes telling me about things I may not see, or that some task I'm asking of it is beyond its abilities. That in turn means the horse needs to trust me to listen, and do the job of being a rider.


If you truely have full control of your horse you don't need to have control??? 
I fully have control of Rio and yet on my almost daily rides I exercise very little control. He knows what has to be done and I trust him to do his job but a simple verbal command is all it takes to get immediate response. There is no pulling on the reins, bumping him or anything else. Just horse and rider moving throught the fields and woods with very little visual communication but a strong bond, a strong leadership non the less.

The person that doesn't have control is the one pulling on the reins, tapping with the whip or whatever.
A true riding team show very little leadership, the horse seems to go of his own accord but deep down it is the will of the rider that is guiding the horse.
If you could be a fly on my shoulder tomorrow morning you would see a horse and rider wandering the bush seemingly without guidance. That is control.

I think it is the 3rd commandment that I beleive in the strongest.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> I fully have control of Rio and yet on my almost daily rides I exercise very little control. He knows what has to be done and I trust him to do his job but a simple verbal command is all it takes to get immediate response.
> .


Exactly. It isn't necessary to be pulling at your horse's mouth or banging his sides every moment of the ride. You've taught him his job and he knows what you want. That is control.

Lack of control is having to constantly correct your horse or to keep checking his gait because he doesn't know his job.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

On this Forum there is a broad range of experience. Our abilities range from lifelong horseman to novice. It is unrealistic to expect the same degree of control over a horse from a relatively new rider who often believes that if they sit correctly and give the right cue that the horse is going to do what it is told.

Sometimes I watch a couple - horse and rider - in complete harmony performing either in the ring or out on the trail as a partnership. I watch with a smile on my face.
Sometimes I watch a horse and rider perform despite each other and then I look on trying to work out what is going wrong.

The harmonious couple came together with time. Human respects and trusts the equine and vica versa.

The pair at odds with eachother have a problem in that before good work can start the effects of bad work have to be negated.

Some riders are very dominant over their horses - which may well accept the positive and firm leadership
Other riders seek to control their horses with quiet positive confidence and soft hands. 
Many riders don't have a clue of what I am talking about. The horse is tolerating the rider because it probably has little choice.

We humans are not all the same in temperament and ability
and likewise not all horses will respond well to unsympathetic harshness be it by rough hands, a whip or a strident voice.

In most cases the lack of harmony starts at the moment of pairing - in other words the rider may have bought the wrong horse. But often that is because the owner did not know better or perhaps did not recognise the actual nature of the horse being taken on.

My own feeling is that if the partnership is not working - then do what humans do - get a divorce - in the long run everyone is happier.

What happened to horses in byegone wars is no longer relevant. Luckily in the twenty first century horses have rights and humans are expected to respect the right of an animal to have quality of life.

Being owned and ridden by an ignorant novice human rider perhaps could be seen as an abuse of animal rights. 

If a knowledgebale rider wants to go down the dominance route then so be it.
If a knowledgeable rider with a soft touch 
is prepared to allow the horse more freedom of thought - then as long as noone (rider, horse or onlooker) is in danger -then so be it.

But one riding system doesn't fit all.
Neither humans nor equines are all made the same.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> If you truely have full control of your horse you don't need to have control???
> I fully have control of Rio and yet on my almost daily rides I exercise very little control. He knows what has to be done and I trust him to do his job but a simple verbal command is all it takes to get immediate response. There is no pulling on the reins, bumping him or anything else.


 
This is one of the reasons why it is so important to work on understanding a horse as well. A horseman needs to learn when to trust his horse's instincts and when he is just being snorty or obnoxious over something unfamiliar. On a young horse, I am a thorough dictator and they will obey every single command regardless of their feelings about it. However, I am careful to try not to put them in a position that would be likely to get them (or myself) hurt. I ask them to do difficult things but I know they are things they _can_ do. Once they have figured out their job and are confident in it and in me, I allow them a little bit more of an opinion. I allow them to mention it to me if their instincts are saying something is wrong, then I decide whether or not to proceed. Doing this has saved me more times than I can count.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

smrobs said:


> This is one of the reasons why it is so important to work on understanding a horse as well. A horseman needs to learn when to trust his horse's instincts and when he is just being snorty or obnoxious over something unfamiliar. On a young horse, I am a thorough dictator and they will obey every single command regardless of their feelings about it. However, I am careful to try not to put them in a position that would be likely to get them (or myself) hurt. I ask them to do difficult things but I know they are things they _can_ do. Once they have figured out their job and are confident in it and in me, I allow them a little bit more of an opinion. I allow them to mention it to me if their instincts are saying something is wrong, then I decide whether or not to proceed. Doing this has saved me more times than I can count.


 very very good point!


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

If a knowledgebale rider wants to go down the dominance route then so be it.
If a knowledgeable rider with a soft touch 
is prepared to allow the horse more freedom of thought - then as long as noone (rider, horse or onlooker) is in danger -then so be it.

I have been thinking about my horse riding a lot lately as I find myself unable to get a riding companion to keep up with me. Too many of my friends end up in dangerous situations because they wont take charge and step into a dominant role as leader. I am coming to the conclusion more and more that for myself personnally I dont think the term partnership applies in my relationship with my horse. A partnership implies that my horse has equal decision making rights as we ride - and she doesn't. Barry you have talked about a rider going the 'dominance route' what does that mean? Also what sort of freedom of thought does a horse actually require on a ride? 

If a horse thinks that an obstacle is dangerous but the human rider with the cognitive brain KNOWS that it isn't surely the human rational wins out over the horse flight instinct? And if it doesn't then how can a horse ever feel safe in the world. I guess you could say I have let my human intellect dominate my horses fright/flight instincts, for me this is a good thing. Pheonny and I do have a compromise system in the sense that I decide what and where we are going but when we get to a difficult piece of ground I drop the reins and she gets to choose how she wants to negotiate it. Whether or not she wants to negotiate that terrain is NOT up for discusssion.

I guess I am trying to decipher what the term partnership means when it comes to horse rider relations. Should a horse get to choose the direction of a ride, the speed, the distance? Becuase forgive me if I am wrong but isn't when a horse does get these choices we end up with threads like "Barn sour horse what should I do?", "Horse wont stop..Help" and " My horse wont walk forward how do I make it?". There are some people, I guess I am included, who feel that the answer to these questions is to step up, be a strong leader using the means neccessary. Therefore letting your horse be what it really wants which I believe is to feel safe and guided by a good firm leader. I believe a horse wants that than they want a 'friend'.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Barry, I always enjoy your replies. Thoughtful, elegant, and spot-on.

War: where men are fashioned as close to the "dirt bike" as possible.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Kiwi
I have reread your post and each time I come to the conclusion that you are answering your own questions. 

I dont think the term partnership applies in my relationship with my horse. 
A partnership implies that my horse has equal decision making rights as we ride - and she doesn't. 
There is nothing about a partnership agreement that need say the partnership is equal. There will always be unequal partnerships. 

Barry you have talked about a rider going the 'dominance route' what does that mean? 
A dominant rider to me is one that never allows the horse to make any decisions about how to carry both itself and its rider. Such a rider is constantly chastising the horse for the merest misdemeanour. 

Also what sort of freedom of thought does a horse actually require on a ride?
On a trail ride the horse must carry itself and the rider. It must be left to chose where to put its feet. Its neck must be free so that the head can look down. It must be able to look about to watch out for those wild tigers.

If a horse thinks that an obstacle is dangerous but the human rider with the cognitive brain KNOWS that it isn't surely the human rational wins out over the horse flight instinct? 
Horses chose to run away because they are good at running. Sometimes when they meet some new but inoffensive they might chose to run first and look back - then obviously it is for you the rider to stop the horse from running. You have to show the horse there is nothing to be afraid of. 
But don't make the wrong choice - if the horse is hurt by the new obstacle
then you will have lost face in the trust stakes. If you have been the trainer of the horse in other matters then it will accept the lesson in the same way as it will learn not to fear walking on a plastic sheet during a lesson in the training arena.

And if it doesn't then how can a horse ever feel safe in these worId.
It can't ever feel safe in this dangerous world and neither can you the human.
But you can teach it to face SOME of its fears. The constant battle for the owner with a horse is to allay its fears. A more difficult problem is sometimes to make it fearful of things it should be fearful of ie wire fencing.

I guess you could say I have let my human intellect dominate my horses fright/flight instincts, for me this is a good thing. 

Pheonny and I do have a compromise system in the sense that I decide what and where we are going but when we get to a difficult piece of ground I drop the reins and she gets to choose how she wants to negotiate it. 
That is exactly what you should do

Whether or not she wants to negotiate that terrain is NOT up for discusssion.
and neither should it be

I guess I am trying to decipher what the term partnership means when it comes to horse rider relations. 
Well it doesn't mean 'equal'. It means you the human do what you are good at and the horse does what it is good at. You can't carry the horse and the horse can't read a map. 

Should a horse get to choose the direction of a ride, the speed, the distance?
No, not unless you want to find the quickest way home 

Becuase forgive me if I am wrong but isn't when a horse does get these choices we end up with threads like "Barn sour horse what should I do?", "Horse wont stop..Help" and " My horse wont walk forward how do I make it?"
You are not a novice rider Kiwi. Such questions must be expected from new riders. Some of those novices unless they receive some help on the ground will give up and probably rightfully so. 

There are some people, I guess I am included, who feel that the answer to these questions is to step up, be a strong leader using the means neccessary. 
Of course

Therefore letting your horse be what it really wants which I believe is to feel safe and guided by a good firm leader. I believe a horse wants that than they want a 'friend'.[/QUOTE]
Horses used to live in a herd environment where one mare and one stallion would come forward and make the decisions for the group. Your role as owner is to replace that inherited urge in all horses for positive leadership. The horse will not see you as a 'friend' but they might see you as a 'companion in riding'. Your role is to provide food, shelter, safety and continuity. An owner who does not do the stable work for their horse shares the relationship with the stable hand. The owner should always personally feed the horse and groom it if circumstances allow. A young, very capable rider often takes my horse into the arena for schooling. The pair look good together. But I make sure that she never feeds DiDi and only in rare circumstances does she ever groom her.


Some horse rider/owners never achieve harmony with their horse and mostly you can't teach them how to. Some riders seem to think that the louder you shout the faster the horse will behave - it doesn't work that way.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Barry Godden said:


> Kiwi
> Pheonny and I do have a compromise system in the sense that I decide what and where we are going but when we get to a difficult piece of ground I drop the reins and she gets to choose how she wants to negotiate it.
> That is exactly what you should do
> 
> .


Here again the horse doesn't make the decision on how to negotiate a dangerous piece of ground. If he did he could easily jump that stream and end up in more serious trouble.
I pick the route, I pick if he is to jump or not. I use my head to decide on the best way to get across.

Left to the horse they tend to rush, tend to jump things they should walk through.
Again I am more knowledgable then my horse. I know the terrain better then he does. I can decide how to take a bad section in steps, break it down. I know what he can do, what he will do when I tell him to.

He gets to take me for a ride all the time. I pick the pace, drop the reins and just sit and enjoy the ride, he has been given a task and I leave him alone to do it but anytime anytime I choose to take over my will is dominant.. Like a simple stop while jogging along the trail, Pee break, a simple HO and he is planted.

I don't micro manage but he has been taught how to micro manage himself.
I give him a task, his training will allow him to carry out this task so I can sit back and enjoy the ride.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Here again the horse doesn't make the decision on how to negotiate a dangerous piece of ground. If he did he could easily jump that stream and end up in more serious trouble.
> I pick the route, I pick if he is to jump or not. I use my head to decide on the best way to get across.
> 
> Left to the horse they tend to rush, tend to jump things they should walk through.
> ...


 I think all horses are different in this situation, Rena grew up in the mountains and knows all the terrain, so i can drop the reins and trust her to get me through something safely. But if i tryed that with my friends horse he would probably make an unbalanced attempt at a leap across it and get hurt. Today me and my friend came across two growling barking dogs that started chasing the hroses, my friend and her hrose were across the feild before i knew it, and me and rena just turned around and faced the dogs and told them to get home, Rena didnt blink an eye, while my friends horse (who honestly, isnt that well trained, but so many horses are) I think the amount you can let a horse have an opinion differs from hrose to horse. Not that im saying they should make the desicion, what i mean is you listen to their opinion and take it into consideration. I wouldnt even think of listening to some horses opinions, but some smart horses that know what theyre doing I do.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> I think all horses are different in this situation,
> 
> i mean is you listen to their opinion and take it into consideration. I wouldnt even think of listening to some horses opinions, but some smart horses that know what theyre doing I do.


I make a horse. I start with the raw material and turn it into what I want. His opinion does not count.
I have made so many horses and not one turned out bad. Confident, obedient rides every one of them.
I pick the right raw material and then turn it into something useful. Like a lump of clay, ugly but under the right hands it becomes a work of art.

How can a horse express an opinion, you listen and then decide??
Horses can't talk, spooking at any time is not allowed as is free will to go where they want.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I make a horse. I start with the raw material and turn it into what I want. His opinion does not count.
> I have made so many horses and not one turned out bad. Confident, obedient rides every one of them.
> I pick the right raw material and then turn it into something useful. Like a lump of clay, ugly but under the right hands it becomes a work of art.
> 
> ...


 Thats the way you do it, I do it differently, Ive never had a horse turn out badly either. soooo obviously our own wways work for us.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> Thats the way you do it, I do it differently, Ive never had a horse turn out badly either. soooo obviously our own wways work for us.


It would really help me get a handle on you if I knew your age?? I know you will say age means nothing but without age you don't have the years of experience. I also know that getting thrown on a horse at 3 years of age doesn't start giving you experience.
Taking young pukes and turning them into model citizens over and over again is experience.
Again PM me if you don't want your age revealed.:lol:


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Haha I havent trained very many horses at all but it hasnt really failed me, so i think i am going to stick with my way, you stick with yours, and everyones happy! haha I'm only actually 15, i know, your way older, and have had more experience, but my way hasnt failed me, or anyone i know, so if it ever does i might try a different method, but until then......


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> Haha I havent trained very many horses at all but it hasnt really failed me, so i think i am going to stick with my way, you stick with yours, and everyones happy! haha I'm only actually 15, i know, your way older, and have had more experience, but my way hasnt failed me, or anyone i know, so if it ever does i might try a different method, but until then......


thank you ridergirl23. That helps me understand where you are coming from.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

It astounds me that people buy broke horses, screw them up and then eventually learn a thing or two about riding and think that they are horse trainers when the problem goes away. When I was 15 I thought I knew everything too. I am thankfull to all of the adults that put up with me and mentored me untill I was smart enough to know I wasn't all that smart. 

Here is a good test to see if you are even eligible to consider yourself experienced: If you can count the times a horse has thrown you off or if you can name every horse you have ridden in the last five years then you are not an experienced rider. You are a novice. There is nothing wrong with that, everybody started there at one time but you need to be honest with yourself and those that are trying to help you. 

This was a little off topic but needed to say it.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Here is a good test to see if you are even eligible to consider yourself experienced: If you can count the times a horse has thrown you off or if you can name every horse you have ridden in the last five years then you are not an experienced rider. You are a novice. There is nothing wrong with that, everybody started there at one time but you need to be honest with yourself and those that are trying to help you.


Yes, yes, yes!

It frustrates me to no end when someone claims to be a trainer extraordinaire - And they have only ridden 5 or so horses :S.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Amen, Amen, Amen.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

I guess I'm experienced? I don't know how many times I have fallen, or almost fallen, and I cannot name every horse in the past 5 years.
I am an intermediate. I know more than a beginner but way less then a person like kevin.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

He didn't mean that it was the only thing that makes someone an experienced rider. I don't care if you can jump tall buildings in a single bound on your horse if you can't even post the trot on other horses then you are a novice. This is way off topic from the original post but w/e. The difference is that a good, experienced rider/trainer can get on any horse and not just stay on but improve it in some way. Not just the broke ones, not just the english ones, etc. Any idiot can ride a million different horses and fall off of most of them. That's not the point...The point is that it takes many years, many horses and many times of learning something the hard way or coming across a horse that makes you work for it a little harder to be a good, experienced and effective rider. The difference between a novice and an experienced rider is that an experienced rider can take the fall, take the setbacks and take the green horse and improve it with almost every ride anyways. A novice that's biggest accomplishment on a green horse is that they can stay on, maybe w/t/c and stop is not ready to train or work with green horses. To me, anyone that currently owns, rides or has ridden a green horse and their first defense to anyone asking why they were riding greenies is that they can stay on is a big red flag for me that is screaming, "Overconfident Novice Alert". And then I just feel sorry for the horse because it generally doesn't have a chance of reaching it's full potential then. If that's harsh then so be it...as over the years this has been reinforced over and over again by many different riders and horses.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Here is a good test to see if you are even eligible to consider yourself experienced: If you can count the times a horse has thrown you off or if you can name every horse you have ridden in the last five years then you are not an experienced rider. You are a novice.


I think you've got things exactly backwards here, at least as far as I'm concerned. It's because I KNOW that I'm a novice that I don't want to be in absolute control. I don't want the horse going into dangerous situations because it's trained to absolute obedience, and I'm too ignorant to recognize that what I'm telling it to do actually is dangerous.

It's like Custer and the warhorse: if that overconfident glory-hound had listened to his horse, history would have recorded Custer's Record Run instead of his Last Stand


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

But James, as a novice you should be striving to achieve that leadership with your horse. If as a novice you are forever content to allow a really broke horse do all the work for you then you will never move on from being a novice. You will also be greatly limited in the horses you ride, the riding disciplines you can do and the fun that you can have with horses. We aren't saying that there aren't horses out there than can and will pack any person but they are rare and even they have limits and once they are packing a rider for long enough that gives very little input then all that training is going to wear off and they will most likely start to pull tricks and stunts because you have given them that power.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

jamesqf said:


> It's like Custer and the warhorse: if that overconfident glory-hound had listened to his horse, history would have recorded Custer's Record Run instead of his Last Stand


this should be in the joke section:lol::lol: Thanks for the laugh this morning.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

James, are you suggesting that the Custer massacre at the Little Big Horn was due to his horsemanship rather then a tactical error in judgment and circumstance? That if he let his horse do the thinking, that the Sioux Nation would not have been able to overcome him?

The other problem we have on all forums is that a novice or other inexperienced person (I can't call them horsemen) will spout out advise based on the one or two horses that they "trained". I hear 15 year olds coming on and telling the world that they have so much experience because they have been riding since they were 4; all the while, our experienced horsemen (generic form of the word) are either ignored or criticized instead of whatever reason.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> It astounds me that people buy broke horses, screw them up and then eventually learn a thing or two about riding and think that they are horse trainers when the problem goes away. When I was 15 I thought I knew everything too. I am thankfull to all of the adults that put up with me and mentored me untill I was smart enough to know I wasn't all that smart.
> 
> Here is a good test to see if you are even eligible to consider yourself experienced: If you can count the times a horse has thrown you off or if you can name every horse you have ridden in the last five years then you are not an experienced rider. You are a novice. There is nothing wrong with that, everybody started there at one time but you need to be honest with yourself and those that are trying to help you.
> 
> This was a little off topic but needed to say it.


I am absalutly not saying i know everything,haha oh god no, haha i wish, that would make my life easier, and then i wouldnt have to take lessons... but then again I will be taking lessons until i hit grand-prix, and then some more lessons til i die, haha. But im just sharing my opinion, which i learned/ shaped from a lot of different trainers.

Haha I cant count the number of times ive fallen off... I cant count the horses i rode... or maybe i could if i thought about it for a few days... I'm nott experienced, but i have had a lot of experiences.

again, im just sharing my opinion and how I do things. which hasnt failed me yet.  or any of the horsetrainers i hang around. 

* It astounds me that people buy broke horses, screw them up and then eventually learn a thing or two about riding and think that they are horse trainers when the problem goes away. * 

wait... are you saying i do this? because im around horsetrainer/ riding instructors all day, when the horse does something wrong i know its my fault (thats the very first lesson that was pounded in my head) and theres plenty of experienced trainers to tell me what im doing wrong. I havent ever screwed up a horse, and if you think thas me im a little offended about that. Ive seen lots of those kinds of people (im at a dressage boarding stable, Plenty of crazy people/crazy horses come almost every week.) and i cant even watch them ride, because they refuse to learn.
You can garentee my mom would smack me upside the head if i ever was a little snobb like so many riders that come through.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

I in no way know everything about horses, but I give advise based on what knowledgable people say here and what ive learned myself, like what whitener for horses works good, favorite cinch, OK critique on horse,etc.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

iridehorses said:


> James, are you suggesting that the Custer massacre at the Little Big Horn was due to his horsemanship rather then a tactical error in judgment and circumstance? That if he let his horse do the thinking, that the Sioux Nation would not have been able to overcome him?


Yes. Though I would put it in rather different words (as indeed I did, a few pages back). I think the normal reaction of a horse not trained to absolute obedience, on seeing a couple of thousand Cheyenne and Lakota warriors heading its way, would be to make tracks in the opposite direction. Arguably that hypothetical horse would have displayed much better judgement than Custer did. (I'll grant that I'm a bit prejudiced here, since it's not improbable that some of my ancestors were there that day.) Same applies to those well-trained horses that took the Light Brigade into the guns at Balaclava: they'd have been a lot more sensible to head the other way 



> The other problem we have on all forums is that a novice or other inexperienced person (I can't call them horsemen) will spout out advise based on the one or two horses that they "trained".


But I doubt whether anyone here has a lot of first-hand experience in training warhorses 

For me, it's not really about training horses (about which, as I've said, I'm pretty ignorant), it's more of a general philosophy or attitude towards life. I'm not a big fan of absolute obedience. I don't want to have to micro-manage, whether it's horse, dog, or employees. I want to set objectives, and have them use their brains to help accomplish them. The question is how to best educate myself & them to do this?


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

This forum is cool not because of Expert Advice (sorry, Great Trainers) but the wealth of first-hand experience. Even a 15-year-old can have a story to tell that can teach you something. What I like about self-proclaimed novices is, they're always learning. They KNOW they don't have all the answers. Too many Professional Trainers think there is nothing more they can learn. But I like hearing their stories too.

There are many stories of horses correcting the rider's poor judgement. What first comes to mind is the horse that comes into a jump wrong. One will refuse; the stronger rider will get him to jump, unfortunately, often enough resulting in a crash.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Training War Horses is no different, really, then training for heavy trail riding. Instead of people with swords, trailriders have careless people with dogs that like to chase horses, or bicycles, or 4 wheelers. Same principle.

As for 15 year olds, I will be the first one here to admit that I've learned a different way to look at a problem and have tired their methods successfully. The problem comes from a 15 year old who thinks that they know everything there is to know and refuses to take advise.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Seriously??



jamesqf said:


> Yes. Though I would put it in rather different words (as indeed I did, a few pages back). I think the normal reaction of a horse not trained to absolute obedience, on seeing a couple of thousand Cheyenne and Lakota warriors heading its way, would be to make tracks in the opposite direction. Arguably that hypothetical horse would have displayed much better judgement than Custer did. (I'll grant that I'm a bit prejudiced here, since it's not improbable that some of my ancestors were there that day.) Same applies to those well-trained horses that took the Light Brigade into the guns at Balaclava: they'd have been a lot more sensible to head the other way
> 
> *Horses are smart but they aren't geniuses. If you let a horse decide what is scary and what is not then you will never get your horse to leave the barn. *
> 
> ...


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

jamesqf said:


> Yes. Though I would put it in rather different words (as indeed I did, a few pages back). I think the normal reaction of a horse not trained to absolute obedience, on seeing a couple of thousand Cheyenne and Lakota warriors heading its way, would be to make tracks in the opposite direction. Arguably that hypothetical horse would have displayed much better judgement than Custer did. (I'll grant that I'm a bit prejudiced here, since it's not improbable that some of my ancestors were there that day.) Same applies to those well-trained horses that took the Light Brigade into the guns at Balaclava: they'd have been a lot more sensible to head the other way
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am probably misinterpreting you here but I have to say that yesterday Sun 25th was Anzac day here in New Zealand. Anzac day is our day to remember all of our war veterans that have and have not come back from war. One could argue that these men would have been a lot smarter to have run away but the fact is the world we live in IS the world we live in because these men did not run away. Sometimes a job just has to be done. Horses have participated in wars in this century too, rightly or wrongly horses have been pitted against tanks and guns and on occassion even prevailed (check out Polish Cavalry). The reason these horses could do so was because of training. With a good foundation of solid training you should not be micro managing your horse you should be able to do what you need to be doing, whether it be looking for the next jump, talking to a mate or just day dreaming while your horse gets on with the job it has been trained for.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

kiwigirl said:


> I am probably misinterpreting you here but I have to say that yesterday Sun 25th was Anzac day here in New Zealand. Anzac day is our day to remember all of our war veterans that have and have not come back from war. One could argue that these men would have been a lot smarter to have run away...


Yes, you probably are  I know I don't explain myself as well as I'd like, but it's not as though there are only two choices, that one must either blindly obey or run away. It's the objectives that matter. Sometimes the underlings would do better to stop and tell their superiors that they're making a mistake. That's true, whether it's a horse being ridden at a fence that it knows it can't jump, 
or soldiers at Balaclava, Greasy Grass, or the Somme.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I see where you're coming from but history tells a different story. If the brave men of the Alamo had not sacrificed themselves Texas' war for independence may have gone on much longer and with many more dead. If brave men had not stood and died on tiny South Pacific islands instead of telling thier commanders to ****** off Australia would be speaking Japanese. When ambushed the only way to survive is to counter-attack and that goes against every instinct of self-preservation which is why military men and women must obey instantly and with total faith in thier commanders. Military officers also have a duty to thier men to make sure that the sacrifice is worthy of thier lives and they are given every available means of completing the task alive.

The same sentiment is true of our horses. As humans, we can see the bigger picture and we know that it's just a scary black garbage can and if the horse spooks and runs backwards into the road it may get hit by a car. To the horse there is no danger in being on the road because it can't see a car, it can only see a garbage can. If horses were people they would be flighty, unreliable and nuerotic. Why would you let someone like that be in charge. Left to its instincts a horse would run a quarter of a mile without taking a breath or a thought running through its head. Fortunately, over the centuries we have learned ways to supress that instinct. 

If you want to let your horse be in charge (there is very little middle ground one of you is in charge) then that is your decision but it may not end well. Don't worry though, most hospitals have Wi-Fi so you can still read the internet forums.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

The purpose of boot camp is to break a recruit down and then to build him back up. A soldier who questions a superior's command is usually Court Martialed. A sailor who wants to do things his way, against the command of the Captain, is starting a mutiny. A horse that will fight the control of his rider is untrained.

I have come to many dead falls in the woods or a rushing stream and I'll have my horse pick his own way through. That is not the same as my horse having his own way, it is allowing him to pick a good path but I can take that choice away at any moment without his objection.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

The Charge of the Light Brigade By Alfred LORD Tennyson

Half a league, half a league
Half a league onward
Forward the Light Brigade
Was there a man dismayed
Some one had blundered
Their’s not to make reply
Their’s not to reason why
Theirs but to do or die
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred
Cannon to the right of them
Cannon to the left of them
Cannon in front of them
Volley’d and thundered
Into the jaws of Death
Into the mouth of Hell
When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.

In 1854 Britain and the French with the idea of aiding their ally the Ottoman Empire (ie Turkey plus lots of possessions) decided to have a war with Russia in the Black Sea. It was the sort of thing that the Imperial Powers might do back in those days, usually for spurious reasons. The British shipped an army in sailing boats from Britain to the peninsular of the Crimea. Lord Raglan was the overall General charge, he sent orders to Lord Lucan (a Divisional General)., who ordered Lord Cardigan (a Brigadier General) to charge a battery of Russian guns at the end of a long valley, flanked by more cannon. It was a badly conceived order which was misunderstood by the recipient. 673 cavalrymen charged and only 426 returned unharmed. The charge achieved nothing except the death of some Russian gunners and the loss of 247 cavalrymen and presumably the horses. The guns stayed where they were. 
Tennyson wrote the poem years later and superficially the concept was to glorify the unquestionable obedience of the British peasant soldier to follow the orders of an aristocratic general in an era when a rich aristocratic man could buy the rank of general, regardless of his ability to direct soldiers in battle.
The usual job of the soldiers was to parade en masse in London on ceremonial duties. It has been suggested that the real idea behind the war was a grand campaign of hunting for the generals. Perhaps Tennyson - himself an aristocratic Lord, meant to imply something else as he wrote this poem.

With the benefit of hindsight, The Charge and much about it was an excellent example of how not to conduct a battle. Men died because of stupidity but at least they seem to have gained immortality. Although what might have helped is that at least two films, one starring Errol Flynn, have been made on the subject. From this incident, arguably the key lesson to be learned is not to obey idiots just because they are called ‘Lord.’ We Brits certainly did not learn much, for 60 years later in 1914 we sent cavalry to confront German machine guns in Belgium and France.

Nowadays the Army keeps horses for tourists in London to watch. That’s a much better idea.

Barry G


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

iridehorses said:


> I have come to many dead falls in the woods or a rushing stream and I'll have my horse pick his own way through. That is not the same as my horse having his own way, it is allowing him to pick a good path but I can take that choice away at any moment without his objection.


Which is exactly what I've been trying to say. You decide you want to get past the obstacle. Your horse (presumably) knows how to manage its feet & pick the best path. If you were insisting on absolute obedience, you'd force the horse to go the way you chose, even if was totally unsuitable, even dangerous.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

jamesqf said:


> you'd force the horse to go the way you chose, even if was totally unsuitable, even dangerous.


I count on MY intelligence, MY experience to pick the best way to handle the situation. What does he know? He can't reason out the best plan? How to break it down into steps.
The horse will just try to get over the obsticle one way or another.
I have both our safety in mind and using my logic I will get him over IF he listens to me.
No in every bad situation I pick how it is to be done. Break everything down into controlable steps and if the horse is really broke he will do as he is told and not try to think for himself.

I really think of PaintedHorse in this situation. Some of the rock falls he chooses to navigate would require utmost conscentration of both horse and rider.

I shouldn't talk but I have negotiated things that others would not attempt if I didn't lead and every time I have come out of it without harming the horse. Never once have I wiped out doing a tricky manuver.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I really think of PaintedHorse in this situation. Some of the rock falls he chooses to navigate would require utmost conscentration of both horse and rider.


Exactly what I've been trying to say. Not JUST the rider telling the horse exactly what to do, and not JUST the rider sitting there like a lump while the horse does whatever it pleases, but BOTH working TOGETHER.

Now since the rider is more intelligent than the horse (or so we hope, but see above comments re Custer), s/he needs to learn & exercise judgement, but that judgement includes recognizing the possibility that the horse is aware of things that the rider isn't.

Just for example, I hike a lot with my dog, and given work hours & such, we often wind up hiking the last mile or two of trail in the dark. I can't see the trail, but the dog has much better night vision. I've never needed to use a flashlight (though I do carry one), because all I have to do is follow her white tail-tip. I trust her to use her superior vision to lead me, while still using some judgement - I can tell her to slow down, go left or right at a fork, etc.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

If you had worded your posts like that and not like you did previously James then people would have agreed with you.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

James
I had a horse which I regularly rode him through the woods in the dark.
Sometimes I came home a little quicker than I would have liked but we always got home safely.

It made it easier that the horse had white ears.

Trusting the horse in the dark illustrates much of what you have been saying.

Barry G


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I too ran alot of trail nights and trusted to his eye sight over mine but BUT I still knew what was under foot. I knew every inch of that bush, when the turns came up, tricky crossing. While the horse is given freedom to move along the trail I still dictated pace, stops, which trails to choose, basically everything. I gave him the task, he got to do it but I would interfer any time I choose.
Again I have more knowledge about conditions, footing, hidden fences then any horse running in my home territory.


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## Rule of Reason (Feb 11, 2010)

Try this one on for size. A couple of years ago I was riding a young mare out of the arena. Mare was very obedient, not spooky. Suddenly she planted her feet and snorted. I looked down and saw a lead rope someone had left on the ground, with a big diamond pattern, lying in an S shape. It looked at first glance like a big rattlesnake (even to me). I patted the horse on the neck and urged her forward. She hesitated slightly, then edged around it and walked calmly on. I didn't punish her in any way.

Riosdad, would you have handled that differently?


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Rule of Reason said:


> Try this one on for size. A couple of years ago I was riding a young mare out of the arena. Mare was very obedient, not spooky. Suddenly she planted her feet and snorted. I looked down and saw a lead rope someone had left on the ground, with a big diamond pattern, lying in an S shape. It looked at first glance like a big rattlesnake (even to me). I patted the horse on the neck and urged her forward. She hesitated slightly, then edged around it and walked calmly on. I didn't punish her in any way.
> 
> Riosdad, would you have handled that differently?


We don't have snakes or anything else that is harmful. No spiders, bears, cats or anything else. I wouldn't have handled it any different either. She didn't really spook ,just pointed out the possible snake and then went on. No problems there.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

If only it wasn't so cold up there...then I'd be sold! Haha


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Again I have more knowledge about conditions, footing, hidden fences then any horse running in my home territory.


Sure. After all (if I'm remembering your past posts correctly), you've been around that territory longer than the horses. But now suppose that you and your horse go to unfamiliar territory? Or that you fly out to Utah or some place you don't know at all, and ride a horse that's accustomed to local trails & conditions?


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> If only it wasn't so cold up there...then I'd be sold! Haha


It's not as cold as you think. We get very little snow, not enough to run snowmobiles on most of the winter. 1 month as most. Temperature wise your northern states are alot colder, alot more snow then we get. The lakes keep us quite warm. Buffalo gets alot more snow then we ever do. Storms seem to pass us by.
Beside you can dress properly for the weather and ride all year. My guy never gets a week off all winter and he runs outside. 
No I love our seasons and winter can be one of the most beautiful seasons to ride.
We are about the same latitude as the northern part of Califorinia. Utah certainly gets far more snow and cold then we do.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

You've sold me! I'm moving up. It's miserable here during the winter.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

jamesqf said:


> Sure. After all (if I'm remembering your past posts correctly), you've been around that territory longer than the horses. But now suppose that you and your horse go to unfamiliar territory? Or that you fly out to Utah or some place you don't know at all, and ride a horse that's accustomed to local trails & conditions?


I rode in lots of strange places. I ran endurance and some of the trails were hell. At one ride I had to cross and recross Beaver dams. Just sticks held together with mud. The horse behind me broke through and impaled himself and died.
Under all situations I decide, I pick the route. I look at a crossing, decide if we can do it, pick how I want to break it down and then guide the horse through the obsticle. I will respond in a certain way. If I ask for a stop in the middle of something and then a side pass, I will get what I ask for.
I practice all the time under adverse conditions. I practice his skills each and every ride. He must respond instantly, going from a nice working trot to a BACK for example without taking any unnecessary forward steps.
Practice your skills over and over under normal riding conditions. Drag a branch, back up, side pass over and break off a limb, anything to keep practicing but don't make it seem like practice.
Keep him sharp.
I also steer nearly every turn with my legs, half pass all the time, at least one sliding stop every ride.
Don't talk alot, don't chatter endlessly. Make your voice mean something. the horse hears and he knows it is for him.

No I trust my instincts more then any horse but then again I haven't ridden in Utah or anywhere where I had to deal with dangerous animals, certainly not snakes, crocs, cats, bears.But try riding on freeways, through large cities, cross walks on very large intersections, far more danger there then in the wild. A loose horse can quickly become a dead horse.:lol::lol:


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> You've sold me! I'm moving up. It's miserable here during the winter.


I am head of immigration. Please send pictures with as much detail as possible:lol::lol: Views from all angles are required as are physical dimensions.
I hope to process your request as quick as possible:lol::lol:


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Quote
But try riding on freeways, through large cities, cross walks on very large intersections, far more danger there then in the wild. A loose horse can quickly become a dead horse. unquote

That's exactly what many of us here in the UK have to do. Here is how it is done.

Sitting on your horse, you bring it to the junction of the side road with the main highway. You stop on the white line and look right and left. You see the truck coming round the corner a 100 yards away at maybe 50mph. You relax, you shorten the reins, the leg comes off the flank of the horse, you give the horse a stroke on the neck, you say: 'steady boy' and you pray the horse doesn't step out in front of the truck. You freeze but don't stiffen.
As the truck passes by, the nose of the horse is maybe 3-4 feet away from the passing truck. You give a sigh of relief and cross the road before the next car driving maniac comes by. 

As for freeways - well either you go through the tunnel under the highway or you go over the narrow bridge on top of the highway. One way you go into the bowels of the earth, the other you walk a tightrope. The horse does really care for either route but it doesn't have the wings of Pegasus.

One thing I will confess for sure, you don't allow the horse to make its own decisions in such circumstances. If given the freedom of choice the horse will whirl round and go back the way it came. Unless of course you have the relationship with the horse such that it will trust you to make the right decision both for it and you.

But if I am crossing a boggy area up on the hill - I'll drop the reins and let the Boy make his own way - he knows bogs much better than me and he can feel through his feet the firmness or softness of the soil. I trust him to negotiate the best way through.

It is called in the UK: 'horses for courses'

But we don't have any bears, tigers, lions, cats, snakes or other nasties. The most frightening animal we have to cope with is a hee-hawing donkey or a snorting pig or a barking dog. 

I'll live with the traffic hereabouts if you can cope with the wilder elements of nature in your neck of the woods.

Barry


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Barry occassionally I will even jog down the shoulder of a major high speed freeway, just because it is the easiest way to get where I want to go.
I find the overpasses without a pedestrian side walk the hardest. No room for the horse and my feet are almost touching the cement railing that doesn't come much past my ankle. Get caught up there with a semi barreling down on you. At most you have 3 feet with death on either side.
I stop at the pedestrian cross walks and wait for the walk light. I use the wooden bridges over the streams in the park. I even cross on the top of a dam. I don't get off very often to lead. I find using my legs I can control the rear end of the horse and keep him from swinging wide over something and possibley dropping off.
I don't feel nature can throw anything at me worse then i find in the cities.
We have a nice walkway under a 5 lane highway. too low to ride threw so I just lead him. he doesn't seem to mind being underground.It is at least cool down there. 
I also do steps whenever I can, just for the practice and at times a necessity.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Riosdad

It is against the law in the UK to take a horse on a motorway (freeway) but a horse rider can cross over on the bridges. Our motorways in the UK are jampacked solid with traffic at all times other than in the middle of the night. 
Learner drivers are not allowed either.

I agree that the narrow bridges with the low railings over the motorways are the most scary. The noise of the traffic and the vibrations comes up through the fabric of the bridge and if you get too close to the edge you can look down 25-30 feet onto the traffic. I believe the horse is more disturbed by the vibrations as much as the horrendous noise.

Still if the horse did rear and I fell off the horse and providing I did not break my neck on the road surface of the motorway below, then most likely a truck would run me over. It would all be over pretty quickly.

That's one reason why I have a bald head with grey hair around the sides.

Barry


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Barry you will find the big transport trucks coming right at you look like they are going to run you down.:lol::lol: The truck appears to hit you and then disappears under the bridge but for some reason it doesn't seem to bother the horse. The major bridge I have to cross is about 600 plus feet across and all the way you have no place to go accept crowd the edge. You can also not see the other side so you are going into it blind.

You are not allowed to run major expressway here either but I do it anyway. I know where I can duck through the fence and get away if a cop comes along. I will also switch sides crossing through the large grass media and a car has little chance of cutting me off.
I will run for it. What's he going to do?? Take my liscence away?:lol::lol:


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