# Why I dislike the Catholic Church



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

I'm Catholic. Was born and raised that way and went to church every single Sunday. In the last year or two, I've kinda stopped going. There's a few things that really, really bother me about some of the Catholic church's view and I don't think it is right. 

One of the biggest things is the fact that women cannot be priests. I myself have no aspirations or calling to do so, but I find it to be very sexist and unfair that a women who loves God and wants to be able to give the weekly sacrament of communion and everything else that goes along with it .... cannot. Yes, I understand they can serve the Lord as nuns, but why can't they serve in the way they want to? If they feel a calling to be a priest, why can't they?

I thought everyone, male or female, were equal and precious in God's eyes? 

Seems like the Catholic Church is still stuck before 1920 when women couldn't even vote. 

They were talking about it on the Today show this morning, so it's been on my mind all day.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Pretty obvious you haven't been to church in more than a couple of years, because women_ have_ been giving communion to the congregations for close to 10 years now. 

No, they're not allowed to be priests, and yes, Catholicism _has_ been a male-dominated denomination since its inception. Their basis is Judaism, which didn't allow women into the higher religious orders, either.

The new Pope looks to be willing to change all of that, but I don't know how far he'll be able to get. After all, you can't just upset thousands of years of tradition overnight.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

BBC News - Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

I think the Catholic Church will gradually have to change in order to hold on to a modern day congregation but it is going to take many years for that to happen.
At least its seeing a start to a more flexible and caring approach in this new Pope


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

This is one of the reasons more and more people are leaving organized religion-too many outdated rules. The Catholic church has always been a boy's club since it's inception where the men get to rule.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Did you just wake up this morning and decide to bash the Catholic church?

What is your point?
You don't even have your arguments correct.
I find it difficult to believe that you have gone to mass every Sunday for the last two years and don't know that women give out communion.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> Pretty obvious you haven't been to church in more than a couple of years, because women_ have_ been giving communion to the congregations for close to 10 years now.





Taffy Clayton said:


> I find it difficult to believe that you have gone to mass every Sunday for the last two years and don't know that women give out communion.


I did not express myself correctly in my OP. When I said _"give the weekly sacrament of communion" _I meant to say that they cannot be the ones who turn the bread into Christ's body. That's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.



Speed Racer said:


> No, they're not allowed to be priests,


Exactly my point.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I am not a Catholic but am of an age where I know several people who were brought up to be Catholic and have deserted their faith - usually because of the hypocrisy they recognised as they got older and went out into the real world.
One of my riding instructors was in a Catholic boarding school from a very early age as her parents were based in Africa 
Some of the tales she told about the nuns were horrific, nothing less than cruelty in many cases with less compassion than a plank of wood. 
She worked with horses for a very tough top lady rider. One of the conditions of her employment was she could go to Mass every Sunday. She had to cycle to get there.
At the age of 18 she was beginning to wonder why only Catholics went to heaven and all others were either sent to hell or purgatory. 
The cycle ride was boring so one fine spring morning on her was to Mass, she decided to close her eyes to see how far she could travel.
The answer was two pedals and she was off the road an into a large clump of nettles with the bike on top of her! 
She said that she was stung by the nettles, bruised from the heavy bike and, as she looked up at a small lonely cloud, and shouted out, "God! If you wanted me to go to Mass you would have guided me!"
She rode back to her workplace and never went to Mass again.
One thing all these people had in common is that they were ruled by fear. They were frightened of dying on any day bar a Sunday or early Monday because they knew they would have sinned!


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Foxhunter said:


> I am not a Catholic but am of an age where I know several people who were brought up to be Catholic and have deserted their faith - usually because of the hypocrisy they recognised as they got older and went out into the real world.
> One of my riding instructors was in a Catholic boarding school from a very early age as her parents were based in Africa
> Some of the tales she told about the nuns were horrific, nothing less than cruelty in many cases with less compassion than a plank of wood.
> She worked with horses for a very tough top lady rider. One of the conditions of her employment was she could go to Mass every Sunday. She had to cycle to get there.
> ...


That has nothing to do with hypocrisy or fear. Your riding instructor, at least at 18, was just plain stupid. Stupid is as stupid does, and stupidity has nothing to do with religion...


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Foxhunter said:


> I am not a Catholic but am of an age where I know several people who were brought up to be Catholic and have deserted their faith - usually because of the hypocrisy they recognised as they got older and went out into the real world.
> One of my riding instructors was in a Catholic boarding school from a very early age as her parents were based in Africa
> Some of the tales she told about the nuns were horrific, nothing less than cruelty in many cases with less compassion than a plank of wood.
> She worked with horses for a very tough top lady rider. One of the conditions of her employment was she could go to Mass every Sunday. She had to cycle to get there.
> ...


 
Mom was raised catholic and went to a catholic school. From her stories the nuns would be tossed in jail in todays world for abuse. They were so nasty they turned her off of being a catholic or joining any other organized religion. 

Now for the rest of the story, she found out decades latter that they weren't actually nuns. After WWII there was of course a huge surge in babies that we all know as baby boomers. There was so many kids entering school there wasn't enough nuns to go around to teach them. So what did her school do (and I would assume this happened all over)? They offered teaching jobs to women who were not teachers or even nuns. Unfortunately they only knew of one way to maintain discipline in the class rooms.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Darrin said:


> Mom was raised catholic and went to a catholic school. From her stories the nuns would be tossed in jail in todays world for abuse. They were so nasty they turned her off of being a catholic or joining any other organized religion.
> 
> Now for the rest of the story, she found out decades latter that they weren't actually nuns. After WWII there was of course a huge surge in babies that we all know as baby boomers. There was so many kids entering school there wasn't enough nuns to go around to teach them. So what did her school do (and I would assume this happened all over)? They offered teaching jobs to women who were not teachers or even nuns. Unfortunately they only knew of one way to maintain discipline in the class rooms.


Perhaps, but don't assume that is the norm. Catholic schools are normally more disciplined than public schools, and of course catholic school students score higher academically than public school students. Mrs. Face attended only Catholic schools till college, and she never had any issues with the nuns other than the typical "mean nun" stories that kids tell. I'll take a non-union school over a union school any day of the week - it provides for a far better education...


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Faceman said:


> Perhaps, but don't assume that is the norm. Catholic schools are normally more disciplined than public schools, and of course catholic school students score higher academically than public school students. Mrs. Face attended only Catholic schools till college, and she never had any issues with the nuns other than the typical "mean nun" stories that kids tell. I'll take a non-union school over a union school any day of the week - it provides for a far better education...


I don't disagree with that all, just giving an example of what happened to my mom. This happened to her in grade school when the baby boomers were first hitting the schools. I'm sure adjustments were made latter on. I only brought it up to show that not all the "mean" nuns were actually nuns.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Faceman said:


> That has nothing to do with hypocrisy or fear. Your riding instructor, at least at 18, was just plain stupid. Stupid is as stupid does, and stupidity has nothing to do with religion...


If you had been in an environment where you had a doctrine rammed down your throat with little praise or kindness then you might think differently. 
All this was way back in the 1950s 

On one occasion she and another two girls aged around 8 years, were having to stay at the school during the Easter holidays as their parents were abroad. They were in the gardens looking at the statues of various saints. When they came across a saint they didn't know they made a story about him being made a saint because he rescued a princess. This was overheard by two of the nuns and their punishment was cold showers for not only the rest of the holiday but for all of the following term.
Things might be changing in the Catholic Church but, it is still very outdated and hypocritical 

If punishment like this was enforced on small children then is it any wonder that there was a greater fear of what God could and would do to them if they sinned?
The fact that she was 18 before she started to question her faith does not make her stupid, just indoctrinated.

Fortunately things have changed and I agree with you that these schools are more likely to have better discipline. My nieces and nephew went to a Catholic school for the very same reasons you stated but, there wasn't a nun in sight.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Faceman said:


> That has nothing to do with hypocrisy or fear. Your riding instructor, at least at 18, was just plain stupid. Stupid is as stupid does, and stupidity has nothing to do with religion...


Face, you told me, in a thread, that you were not Catholic. Yet, any time there is even the slightest mention of the Catholic Church, you enter the fray with a fury. No other religion seems to get you going so much. I'm curious as to why this is.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Allison Finch said:


> Face, you told me, in a thread, that you were not Catholic. Yet, any time there is even the slightest mention of the Catholic Church, you enter the fray with a fury. No other religion seems to get you going so much. I'm curious as to why this is.


I don't know...duh...have you seen any Jewish or Baptist or Methodist or Presbyterian bashing threads? If they existed, I would be just as vocal in those.

I detest religion bashing. The denomination doesn't matter - which should be obvious to anyone that participates in these religion bashing threads and reads my posts. 

Some people believe, some don't. But I get a bit sick and tired of people bashing religions, which directly and/or indirectly also bashes people that follow those religions. How do you think db would feel if we had a thread bashing Jews? Personally, I wish such discussions were not even allowed here - they really are not appropriate as they reek of prejudice and hatred. Would we permit race bashing or gender bashing or homosexual bashing on here? I doubt it - such posts would be censored, and rightfully so. At the very least, these types of threads should be moved to the political section for members only...they aren't exactly threads that would encourage casual browsers of faith to seek membership.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with stating one's beliefs or lack of beliefs, or discussing religion, but this religious/Christian/Catholic bashing is a bunch of crap (IMO) - including ridiculous posts bashing Catholics that you yourself have made.

I would defend bashing of ANY religion - particularly when the majority of the time the bashing is done out of ignorance. There is no reason to bash a religion or a lack of religion...


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Foxhunter said:


> If you had been in an environment where you had a doctrine rammed down your throat with little praise or kindness then you might think differently.
> All this was way back in the 1950s
> 
> On one occasion she and another two girls aged around 8 years, were having to stay at the school during the Easter holidays as their parents were abroad. They were in the gardens looking at the statues of various saints. When they came across a saint they didn't know they made a story about him being made a saint because he rescued a princess. This was overheard by two of the nuns and their punishment was cold showers for not only the rest of the holiday but for all of the following term.
> ...


Well, Mrs. Face is 60, she started in Catholic schools in 1958m, which wasn't exactly yesterday.

I keep forgetting you are from the UK. Perhaps it is/was different there. The Catholic Church has always been more liberal in the US than in most of the rest of the world. There is no question Catholic schools enforce more discipline (which is severely lacking in public schools here) than public schools, but that type of story would be a very rare exception here - if it could happen at all...


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Faceman said:


> Perhaps, but don't assume that is the norm. Catholic schools are normally more disciplined than public schools, and of course catholic school students score higher academically than public school students. Mrs. Face attended only Catholic schools till college, and she never had any issues with the nuns other than the typical "mean nun" stories that kids tell. I'll take a non-union school over a union school any day of the week - it provides for a far better education...


You certainly didn't mess with nuns at my school. In my day it was just called being strict, but there was worse waiting for you at home if your dad found out you gave a nun a hard time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Remember my recent thread about religious hypocrites......this is striking a really familiar chord with me......:-/


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

franknbeans said:


> Remember my recent thread about religious hypocrites......this is striking a really familiar chord with me......:-/


Please link:wink: I'm getting old.....


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

http://www.horseforum.com/general-off-topic-discussion/does-anyone-else-find-super-religious-230506/

Here you go old lady.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Facing the parents when we got home wasn't just in the Catholic schools. It was everywhere and kids grew up respecting others. Now parents defend their kids against the teachers and manners are down the tube.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

franknbeans said:


> http://www.horseforum.com/general-off-topic-discussion/does-anyone-else-find-super-religious-230506/
> 
> Here you go old lady.


Oh yes I was away on vacation for that one:wink:


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

Darrin said:


> Mom was raised catholic and went to a catholic school. From her stories the nuns would be tossed in jail in todays world for abuse. They were so nasty they turned her off of being a catholic or joining any other organized religion.


Unfortunately, this was a reflection of the entire Catholic church in the 1950s. I agree some of the nuns were horrible. Discipline abuse of nuns was just as widespread as the priests sexual abuse of children. People did not question the church or anyone associated in leadership with it. They didn't want to go to hell either.


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## konikirule (Jun 26, 2013)

It's not the catholic church that has flaws- its the people in it. In this century, people label themselves as catholic but never go to church. They don't pray, yet are the fastest to talk about how religious they are. A man who lives on my street came to my house and picked a fight with my mom because my dog escaped from my yard and peed on his garbage can. Soon after the police showed up at my house telling us that someone complained that our dog was destroying there property. Like seriously? The next week in church, guess who was giving communion ! the biggest hypocrite ever. You can't judge a religion, only the people in it. Yes, maybe women should be priests, but all that matters is that we know God loves us all equally!


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

My mom went to Catholic school all through High School. She was born in 1954, so I imagine she graduated about 17, 18 years later (probably 17, she was a straight A student).

Now, my MOM had plenty of stories of mean nuns....nuns with rulers etc. I did tune them out after awhile LOL.

That being said, my own experience with Christian School was similar.... I remember the principal (a big old formidable woman!) pulling a huge board/paddle out in the middle of the cafeteria, yanking a teenage boy out of his chair and just whaling on his ***. Pretty sure that the parents had to sign a waiver to allow this.

I sent DD to a Catholic preschool for two years, and I have no memory of signing any such waiver, or having DD beaten with a paddle, ruler or anything else. Pretty sure they did the standard time out by then...this would have been , hm, seven years ago. So things do change in that respect.

Didn't there used to be female ordained before? It does strike a vague memory of things changing around the same time they consolidated the bible. 

I do know that in Buddhism, females cannot be Monks, but they are finally allowing them to continue their religious education. 

To me, it looks like things are (slowly) changing.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Faceman said:


> Some people believe, some don't. But I get a bit sick and tired of people bashing religions, which directly and/or indirectly also bashes people that follow those religions. How do you think db would feel if we had a thread bashing Jews?



I would suspect if a person who WAS Jewish said there was something about their OWN religion that irritated them, he might say it is his right to voice it. It may be a bit different if someone outside of that faith bashed it, though.




> There is absolutely nothing wrong with stating one's beliefs or lack of beliefs, or discussing religion, but this religious/Christian/Catholic bashing is a bunch of crap (IMO) - *including ridiculous posts bashing Catholics that you yourself have made.*


You had better stop right there. I have NEVER bashed Catholicism. EVER! I have too many family members of the Catholic faith to do that. What I DID do is point out (in a long past thread that you attacked me on) that the Pope had a hand in the horrible spread of AIDS in Africa because he refused to sanction the use of condoms among the large Catholic community there. That is a fact, like it or not. That is not bashing the Catholic faith, just pointing out a serious mistake made (which, by the way, the Pope fixed by finally allowing condom use. Too little too late, though.) So, don't say such an inflammatory statement.



> I would defend bashing of ANY religion - particularly when the majority of the time the bashing is done out of ignorance. There is no reason to bash a religion or a lack of religion...


This person is criticizing her own religion, which is her right. If you can't understand that, then you might take the title of her thread as a hint that you ought to pass participating, if you can't refrain from making such rude accusations.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Lets lighten things up a bit here :lol: I think there's a dig at most western faiths here....


And God said: 'Let there be Satan, so people don't blame everything on me. And let there be lawyers, so people don't blame everything on Satan.-- John Wing

Moses dragged us for 40 years through the desert to bring us to the one place in the Middle East where there was no oil.-- Golda Meir

"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity."-- George Bernard Shaw

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." -- Galileo Galilei 

"'Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not commit adultery. Don't eat pork.' I'm sorry, what was that last one? 'Don't eat pork. God has spoken.' Is that the word of God or is that just pigs trying to outsmart everybody?"-- Jon Stewart

"I have wondered at times what the Ten Commandments would have looked like if Moses had run them through the US congress."-- Ronald Reagan

"In high school I was voted the girl most likely to become a nun. That may not be impressive to you, but it was quite an accomplishment at the Hebrew Academy."-- Rita Rudner

"Do you know what you get when you cross a Jehovah's Witness with an Athiest? Someone who knocks on your door for no apparent reason."-- Guy Owen

"I want to die before my wife. The reason is: If it is true that when you die, your soul goes up to judgment, I don't want my wife up there ahead of me to tell them things."-- Bill Cosby

"The other day I saw a guy with a sign that said, WHERE WILL YOU SPEND ETERNITY? Which freaked me out because I was on my way to the Department of Motor Vehicles."--Arj Barker

"In the begining there was nothing and God said 'Let there be light', and there was still nothing but everybody could see it." 
Dave Thomas.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Allison Finch said:


> You had better stop right there. I have NEVER bashed Catholicism. EVER!
> Thi I have too many family members of the Catholic faith to do that. What I DID do is point out (in a long past thread that you attacked me on) that the Pope had a hand in the horrible spread of AIDS in Africa because he refused to sanction the use of condoms among the large Catholic community there. That is a fact, like it or not. That is not bashing the Catholic faith, just pointing out a serious mistake made (which, by the way, the Pope fixed by finally allowing condom use. Too little too late, though.) So, don't say such an inflammatory statement.


Oh...I had "better stop right there"?

To say the Pope and the church has "spread AIDS" in Africa is ignorant and hateful and is most certainly religious bashing - by ANY definition...whether said by you or anyone else. As I told you before, and which a 5th grader should know, the Catholic Church has invested more money and assistance in Africa to help AIDS victims than any country or church has. Just because the church does not follow YOUR recommendations, does not mean it has contributed to the "spread" AIDS. Here is a newsflash for ya - AIDS in Africa has been spread by sexual contact - not so much from drug use as here. Would AIDS spread less slowly if every person in Africa were given free condoms? I don't know - and neither do you. Hell, condoms are readily available in the US, and there still have been 50 million abortions in the last 40 years, and we are (supposedly) a far more educated culture than those in Africa, and have better communications. As the saying goes, you can't fix stupid - whether an African or an American is irrelevant. 

That thread wasn't that long ago, and if you don't want to take responsibility for your hateful accusations, then don't make them to begin with.

And as I have told you before, with the exception of medically caused infections, AIDS prevention is as simple as your ABC's - it is called morality. Isn't it funny - that is the same thing that would prevent the vast majority of abortions. Of course I realize liberals don't like to talk about morality - evidently liberals feel it is far better to thoughtlessly copulate like dumb animals in heat, and then argue about how to resolve the consequences.

We both (as does everyone else) agree that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, but you see the prevention as seeking ways to safely participate in immoral behavior and I see the prevention as not engaging in immoral behavior to begin with...the same view as the Catholic Church has, and there is no way to measure how many AIDS cases the Church has prevented by teaching morality - you don't know and neither do I, but whatever the number, your accusation is absurd...


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## Bagheera (Apr 23, 2013)

I truly believe there is no such thing as a perfect religion. There are pros and cons to every single religion. I think that, as adults, we have the ability to choose the religion the closely adheres to our own values. Also, no two churches are the same. The Catholic Bible is most certainly open to interpretation. The Catholic church on the corner of your street is most definitely preaching a slightly different message from the Catholic church four blocks over. If you do not like a certain church, find another. I know for a fact that some churches are far more progressive than others. Similar to politics, there is no right or wrong answer. There is only a right or wrong answer for the individual. This applies to all religions, so let's all try to keep an open mind.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Faceman said:


> And as I have told you before, with the exception of medically caused infections, AIDS prevention is as simple as your ABC's - it is called morality. Isn't it funny - that is the same thing that would prevent the vast majority of abortions. Of course I realize liberals don't like to talk about morality - evidently liberals feel it is far better to thoughtlessly copulate like dumb animals in heat, and then argue about how to resolve the consequences.
> 
> We both (as does everyone else) agree that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, but you see the prevention as seeking ways to safely participate in immoral behavior and I see the prevention as not engaging in immoral behavior to begin with...the same view as the Catholic Church has, and there is no way to measure how many AIDS cases the Church has prevented by teaching morality - you don't know and neither do I, but whatever the number, your accusation is absurd...


So the people who catch AIDS outside of a medically caused infection are all immoral? As are most people who have abortions? What about the huge number of rape victims who are infected with AIDS or involuntarily impregnated?

Engaging in sex outside of marriage doesn't make you immoral. AIDS status is not an indicator of morality nor is abortion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

demonwolfmoon said:


> That being said, my own experience with Christian School was similar.... I remember the principal (a big old formidable woman!) pulling a huge board/paddle out in the middle of the cafeteria, yanking a teenage boy out of his chair and just whaling on his ***. Pretty sure that the parents had to sign a waiver to allow this.


I went to public school and the teachers didn't have to send you to the principal to get a paddling. You know what, I don't recall ever seeing a kid paddled either the threat was enough. I know they no longer do this but don't know when they stopped.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

I am not catholic, but I know several Catholics. From what I have witnessed, what they practice varies significantly from one region to another. For the longest time growing up I believed certain practices and a particular "atmosphere" that I was familiar w were "catholic". I was then atheist but I was invited to various services/events. I enjoyed all of those that I attended. I then went to Christmas mass w some friends back east. I was pretty shocked by the difference...not at all "festive". What I was "use to" had been heavily influenced by native American traditions, rituals, whatnot down through the ages. So, it would appear they are not all the same or unbending, and I would suspect "mean nuns" is no exception.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

DancingArabian said:


> So the people who catch AIDS outside of a medically caused infection are all immoral? As are most people who have abortions? What about the huge number of rape victims who are infected with AIDS or involuntarily impregnated?
> 
> Engaging in sex outside of marriage doesn't make you immoral. AIDS status is not an indicator of morality nor is abortion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It depends on which "book of morals" you are asking that of, or applying - and how one interprets it. If you don't care for someone else's "book", don't read it. That is true of anything.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I am not a religious person in that I do not go to church. I fall asleep if I sit down for more that 5 minutes, church, cinemas, visiting friends, even at parties! This is a fact, working the hours I did my brain took advantage of snatching sleep whenever it could. 
What I have found is that all to many priests and vicars are not what they preach.

My mother, who anyone would say was a good Christian woman by her thoughts and deeds, cared for an elderly friend for years. When this woman had advanced dementia it was no longer possible to keep her at home so she went into a nursing home locally.
The woman had need a devout Methodist all her life. She had cleaned the church, done the flowers, run the church hall. Did the minister ever visit her in the home? No, he did not.
One bitter cold day this woman escaped from the home and was wandering about the streets. A neighbour told mum who immediately pulled on a jacket and rushed to get her.
The friend only had on a thin dress and slippers. Mum gave her her jacket and started to take her back. Friend could only shuffle so it was taking some time to get her down the road. 
Mum saw the minister coming out of a small store and asked him for help. He looked across at them, got in his car and drove off.
A young lad saw this and immediately said he would drive them, it was only about 500 yards. He not only did this but waited to give mum a lift home. Mum didn't know him at all.
Not often my mother got really mad but this was one of those occasions. Later that evening she went down to the church when the evening service was on and interrupting told the minister exactly what she thought of his Christianity. Telling him he should practise what he preached. 

All to often doctrines set by men are not followed through regardless of religion.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

good for your mom! how nice that she stood by her friend in her illness, when others looked the other way!


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## LilacsBloom (Jun 30, 2013)

OP, the role of women in the church is definitely a topic that has generated a lot of discourse and controversy over the years, and not only in the Catholic Church, but in many others as well. We have always attended churches that allowed women to serve equally in leadership. We recently moved however, and nearly all the churches in our area restrict women from participating fully in leadership ( such as serving as a pastor or as an elder). Both points of view have some scriptural support, though I personally hold an egalitarian (gender equality) view. It's a struggle for me in the church we have been attending.

There are a lot of interesting articles at Christians for Biblical Equality. (Can't remember if we're allowed to link. Just google the name wnd the link should pop up. Great info there if it's something you're interested in reading more about. I definitely think its an interesting topic, and attending a church that is NOT egalitarian has helped solidly my views because I had to dig I and research a bit. At the same time, I don't know that it is necessarily something I would leave a church over, particularly where Catholicism is concerned, as there are some teachings that are specific to the Catholic faith that you won't find elsewhere. KNIM? 

Pretty sure in rambling now. Lol


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If people didn't 'bash' things there would never be change for the better
Many of us would still be living in servitude.
The old Anglican church in the village I grew up in still had the original name plates on the pews that the privileged wealthy sat in.
The history of women being disallowed to serve as priests or hold high offices in the Church (all Christian churches as Catholicism was base for all Christian religions) is actually very vague and not supported by New Testament scripture or ancient church history. 
Its just a shadow that's still hovering over us from a time when women were considered to be second class citizens and the property of men


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

My dad went to Catholic School in the 50s-60s and he dealt with paddles and rulers. My mother went to public school during the same time period a few states away and dealt with rulers and paddles. I went to public school in the early 90s and was definitely paddled. My husband went to Catholic School in the 80s-early 90s and never saw a paddle or was smacked with a ruler. His 7 older siblings (5-15 years older) all went to the same catholic school and never dealt with rulers or paddles. I have family with kids currently in catholic schools where there are no paddles or "hitting" the students. 

It's not exclusively Catholic schools. I was paddled in a public school where that was acceptable punishment. My husband being 6 years older never saw a similar situation in his Catholic schooling.

I always laugh at those arguments. Especially when you look at schools in general in the 50s and 60s. Capital punishment was not at all reserved for Catholics alone. That was common across the country, but it didn't happen in every school district.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

.......Interesting turns in the discussion .........

What about my original topic of the fact that women cannot be priests in the Catholic Church? I don't see how that simple question is "bashing" the Catholic Church, because it is indeed a valid question. Why can't they? Because we have breasts? That seems like a dumb reason. 

I realize things take time to be changed, but I do think it is ridiculous that it hasn't been changed yet. Especially since many other religions do allow women to be pastors. I guess as someone commented above about men ruling the decisions in the church (or something along those lines) would probably be why. 

Or how masses everywhere used to be done in Latin. I think it was a very smart change to do mass in the native language of where the church is located, because if you didn't know Latin, you couldn't understand what was being said. It was a good change for the times. 

I think that women being allowed to be priests would also be a good change for the times. 

My dad is not Catholic (he's Methodist) but he said something to me years ago that I have always remembered:_ The people don't need the church ... but the church needs people._ I find this very true. You don't need a physical church to follow God's will, or to pray, or to live a moral life. But if people didn't go to church, well obviously then there would be no church. So in a way, the church must satisfy the needs of the people and always consider what the people want. Without people, the church cannot exist. My dad doesn't go to church every Sunday. But he's on the church board, helps with maintenance, and gives a substantial amount of money. No, he's not sitting in the pew every week. But I think actions speak much louder than simply "going" and doing nothing extra. 

On that thought, there is another reason why I disagree with some of the things the Catholic Church does, even though I am Catholic myself. My best friend just got married last weekend. She is also Catholic. They got married in a park with a justice of the peace, _because_ the priest in her town flat out told her he would not marry them. No negociation. No discussion. Just plain NO. His reason was because my friend and her fiance had bought a townhouse together and were living together. I understand the Catholic faith does not allow two people to live together before getting married, but it just baffles me that this priest did not do anything to work with them on the situation and come up with a solution. So instead, he drove away my friend from the church with his utter refusal. So they got married in the park instead._ The people don't need a church; but the church needs people._ Doesn't work very well when you don't make an effort to work with the people. 

I had similar problems with my wedding last year (but different problems, as we weren't living together). I had many friends who didn't get married in our hometown or didnt' get married in a church at all because of the stubborness of the priest and his unwillingness to come to a resolution. It was always "his way or the highway" and I don't think that's how the church should treat its people. No, not saying we should get away with every whim and want, but that there should be at least some compromise. If you keep pushing everyone away from the church, pretty soon there won't be anyone left. 

I'm sounding like the "Why?" child because I just want to know WHY.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> ...The history of women being disallowed to serve as priests or hold high offices in the Church (all Christian churches as Catholicism was base for all Christian religions) is actually very vague and not supported by New Testament scripture or ancient church history.
> Its just a shadow that's still hovering over us from a time when women were considered to be second class citizens and the property of men


No. It is based on the now unpopular idea that men & women are different, and might best serve in a congregation differently. Nor is the idea something "very vague and not supported by New Testament scripture":

1 Cor 14: "Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says. If they have any questions, they should ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in church meetings."

1 Tim 2: "Women should learn quietly and submissively. I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly. For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result."

Some argue those were based on cultural requirements of 50 AD. Others disagree. I'm not interested in arguing over it. At a minimum, there are some explicit statements in the Bible that have led people to conclude women should not be pastors or priests.

The baptist in me would argue there is no such things as a priest in the New Testament church, but that is a debate for another time...and a different forum. The odds that the Pope will change something after 2,000 years of consistent teaching on the subject is pretty unlikely. I suspect the Catholic Church will continue to have priests, and they will continue to have men only in that role.

In some ways, it reminds me of the saying that the purpose of prayer is to conform me to God's will rather than conform God's will to mine. We ask horses to do lots of stuff they don't really understand & to trust us to know better. I'm pretty certain my horse is closer to me in intelligence than I am to the Creator..._"His reason was because my friend and her fiance had bought a townhouse together and were living together. I understand the Catholic faith does not allow two people to live together before getting married, but it just baffles me that this priest did not do anything to work with them..."
_​It doesn't baffle me. Why would someone seek the approval of a church whose teachings they reject? It isn't the job of any church to kiss the butts of non-believers. The church doesn't need people. It needs God. Central to Christian belief is this: “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it." Another central belief is that God changes us...we do not change Him.

Peter (whom the Catholics claim was the first Pope) preached, “Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God..." - Acts 2. Jesus came, proclaiming, “The Kingdom of God is near! Repent of your sins and believe the Good News!” - Mark 1. The very term 'salvation' implies there is something to be saved from.

I lived in Utah for 7 years. As a non-Mormon, it would never have occurred to me to show up at one of their churches and insist on being married by an LDS bishop. Why would he marry a Baptist, and why would the Baptist want him to do so? It is a church, not a country club. The Mormons have no requirement to marry a non-Mormon couple. And a Catholic priest has no reason to marry a couple who reject what Catholics believe.

If there is a God who created the Universe, then HE does not require OUR good will and favor...


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Missy May said:


> It depends on which "book of morals" you are asking that of, or applying - and how one interprets it. If you don't care for someone else's "book", don't read it. That is true of anything.


So then you are saying that yes, infection via rape is due to immorality and aborting a fetus that one was impregnated with also via rape is also immorality.

I've read said book. The book also says that sacrificing your child's life is okay, sleeping with siblings is okay, slavery is fine and that using female slaves as broodmares is okay too. Just to name a few things.

You can't claim an entire book is sacred then choose which pages are okay to follow and which are not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Their have been priestesses throughout religious history (not just Christian)
The scriptures are interpreted in many different ways to suit the beliefs of that Church. 
In the Roman times when they adopted the role as heads of what became the Roman Catholic Church (previously no actual organisations but just people preaching the word of Jesus Christ - and the first Christians were Jews) women played no roles at all in leadership - all Emperors were male so having a male dominated church leadership followed through
Much of our government structure comes from ancient Rome
In the Celtic countries women were frequently strong leaders and rulers which is maybe why the Church of England has already bowed to allowing women into prominent positions - just the role of Bishop now to be fought for
Define priestess | Dictionary and Thesaurus
The Roman Republic [ushistory.org]
Regardless of his decision Catholic women will continue to fight for what they see as their rights or they will leave the Church altogether at great loss since women play a large part in steering their childrens faith
Pope: Door 'closed' on women priests
Women's Ordination Conference - Yes! Women Priests and Bishops in the Early Christian Community and Now
And some general rules on Catholic marriage. In the case of the person who posted a good priest would have counseled them on the opportunity to live apart from a set period and to be forgiven of their 'sin' of living together
Requirements for Marriage in the Catholic Church - Catholic Marriage Requirements


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

DancingArabian said:


> So then you are saying that yes, infection via rape is due to immorality and aborting a fetus that one was impregnated with also via rape is also immorality.
> 
> I've read said book. The book also says that sacrificing your child's life is okay, sleeping with siblings is okay, slavery is fine and that using female slaves as broodmares is okay too. Just to name a few things.
> 
> ...


I never said that, and I find it highly offensive that you would state that I even implied it. Laws apply to everyone, morals and how an individual applies them are their _personal choice._ Laws may prevent amoral behavior for fear of penalty, but they cannot control one's thoughts. Abortion is entirely legal, so whether an individual finds it immoral or not is a their_ personal_ choice. How one interprets edgar allen poe's greatest works or the bible is how they _personally_ interpret it, unlike an absolute such as a mathematical statement. You completely misinterpreted my post, for example.


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

I go to private Christian school. Kids have been paddled (with their parent's permission) and the discipline is strict. I've been at this school for 12 years and have never been disciplined. :shock: Guess how I pulled that one off?

I didn't act like a little punk. That's how.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Brighteyes said:


> I go to private Christian school. Kids have been paddled (with their parent's permission) and the discipline is strict. I've been at this school for 12 years and have never been disciplined. :shock: Guess how I pulled that one off?
> 
> I didn't act like a little punk. That's how.


Or you didn't get caught...and/or the teachers liked you!

I once poured glue in the hair of a girl that I didn't like, right in the classroom (public school, mind you, but the teacher was a crafty old woman).

Girl complained to the teacher. But guess who is a quiet, nice student, never getting into trouble?  Teacher just looked at me measuringly and decided to overlook it. I could actually see the wheels turning xD

(PS. I feel very guilty about that, and me and that girl are friends on FB and still chat)


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

^^ Ha ha, that's bad! :lol: Why'd you even do that?


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Brighteyes said:


> ^^ Ha ha, that's bad! :lol: Why'd you even do that?


I was 12 and she got on my very last nerves?  I had to sit next to her!


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

demonwolfmoon said:


> I was 12 and she got on my very last nerves?  I had to sit next to her!


Not only did you deserve to be paddled, you deserved to have been suspended, and gone to juvenile court for assault.

Appalling!


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Taffy Clayton said:


> Not only did you deserve to be paddled, you deserved to have been suspended, and gone to juvenile court for assault.
> 
> Appalling!


lol are you kidding? This was like 1993!

Ill make sure to pass your sentiment on to Kristine though. Im sure she will get a giggle over someone thinking I should have gone to juvie ove ELMERS GLUE!!!!!


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Taffy Clayton said:


> Not only did you deserve to be paddled, you deserved to have been suspended, and gone to juvenile court for assault.
> 
> Appalling!


in all seriousness this attitude is why kids are so screwed up today. A paddling over Elmers glue....that Kindergartner who got suspended for a Hello Kitty SQUIRT GUN in PA....


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

bsms said:


> No. It is based on the now unpopular idea that men & women are different, and might best serve in a congregation differently. Nor is the idea something "very vague and not supported by New Testament scripture":
> 
> 1 Cor 14: "*Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says. If they have any questions, they should ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in church meetings."*
> 
> ...


You and my brother would be great friends. He also quotes and believes the bolded stuff..... He is no longer invited to my house, since he refuses to treat me, his wife or any other woman present, with respect. He places no value at all on anything any woman says, including those with more degrees and better jobs than him. That is NOT how things are in our house. We all respect each other, work together and get done what needs done. None of us sit on our **** and tell someone else to do it (which is what he does if I ask him to do something like bring me his plate.....) He was not raised like this, but found this "religion"-yes-also baptist-and I honestly think he found it a good way to have a servant for life. Married a good Baptist girl.....and there you go. Disowned his middle son for drinking beer in college (I kid you not-Dh and I took him in-he is the most "normal" of their 3 kids). When I went to his daughters wedding-and all that Submissive crap was in the vows-I had all I could do to sit there with my mouth shut. THis is the 21st century. 

A far as Catholics-they are getting better, but still WAY behind the times. I am protestant, but went to Catholic college, my kids all went to Catholic schools....well, the last 2 until 6th grade, when the pedophile principal decided he needed my daughter in his office every day with the door shut....(no there was not a window)....and he and I had "words" more than once. The teacher actually sent my daughter to the office for her sneakers squeeking on the floor. 
GUess what-the Archdioses (sp) did not even care. Principal remained at the school for several more years. Needless to say, my kids did not. 

I grew up with many catholic friends and know more about the religion than I really even care to. IMO, with stuff like refusing to marry folks because of A, B C (I have heard numerous "reasons" over the years)-they are certainly not helping their future with future generations. JMHO.

I do not need to go to church to pray, believe or any of that. I do NOT believe that god is in a certain building at 10 am on Sunday. Sorry-but I can pretty much call on him when I need him, without the need to pay the huge overhead of a big building.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Demonwolf
No the problem with kids today is that there is no accountability for their actions!
We are raising a selfish, self absorbed, self serving , generation, who believe that they can do whatever they wish with no consequences.

And, as for "just ELMER'S GLUE!", Just BUBBLE GUM, just SPIT, just DOG Poo, where does it stop.

You were old enough to know better, HOPEFULLY. You said yourself you did it because you didn't like her, and through no fault of hers, you had to sit by her.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Taffy Clayton said:


> Demonwolf
> No the problem with kids today is that there is no accountability for their actions!
> We are raising a selfish, self absorbed, self serving , generation, who believe that they can do whatever they wish with no consequences.
> 
> ...


...do you know how ridiculous your rant is? 


She later went on to screw an ex bf of mine. Was that bullying too? No? How bout the gum all over my locker in HS, the little poems with crude drawings of me passed around school, etc?

NEWSFLASH: we both survived and are friends. And we did it on our own, without stupid helicopter parents, juvenile hall or jail.

PS. She says the whole Juvie idea you threw up there is a stupid waste of taxpayer money, and I agree.

Elmers glue, really? smh


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

Taffy... Do I even need to explain how ridiculous it is to charge a 12-year-old for assault for putting glue in another kid's hair? Let the punishment fit the crime. If you honestly believe that assault charges are a fitting punishment for glue in the hair... I give up on this argument.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

For goodness sake, Taffy, she was 12! You never did anything foolish when you were 12?


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Taffy Clayton said:


> Demonwolf
> 
> We are raising a selfish, self absorbed, self serving , generation, who believe that they can do whatever they wish with no consequences.


...and speak for yourself.....


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

demonwolfmoon said:


> ...do you know how ridiculous your rant is?
> 
> 
> She later went on to screw an ex bf of mine. Was that bullying too? No? How bout the gum all over my locker in HS, the little poems with crude drawings of me passed around school, etc?
> ...



No rant here, Just a reply.

Maybe she did that in HS because of the bullying you did in grade school, ever think of that?
Screwing an ex, whats the prob there, you were done with him. he is fair game. 
But yes you obviously were bullied also, all I am going on is you post of a 12 year old pouring glue all over a classmate because she didn't like her.

No, a 12 year old should not go to juvenile court, but you assaulted your classmate and you did deserve to be punished.

I find it interesting that you find it ok because it was Just ELMER'S GLUE, How many children have been bullied, by just words. Bullying is bullying, no mater what the instrument is.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> You and my brother would be great friends. He also quotes and believes the bolded stuff..... He is no longer invited to my house, since he refuses to treat me, his wife or any other woman present, with respect. He places no value at all on anything any woman says, including those with more degrees and better jobs than him....


It doesn't sound to me like we would get along at all. The Bible also says, 

"_For husbands, this means love your wives, just as Christ loved the church. He gave up his life for her to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word. He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault. In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man who loves his wife actually shows love for himself. No one hates his own body but feeds and cares for it, just as Christ cares for the church. And we are members of his body. As the Scriptures say, “A man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.” This is a great mystery, but it is an illustration of the way Christ and the church are one. So again I say, each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband."_

A person can believe that men and women are not 100% interchangeable without believing women are servants crawling in the dirt. Sorry to hear your brother doesn't value his wife. That doesn't describe my marriage, and anyone who knows us would back me up in that statement. MY wife is an RN. If you think I don't listen to her medical opinion, you would be wrong. But between us, I do about 99% of the horse riding, so she usually listens to my opinions on what to do with them. In 26 years, I can't think of any significant financial decision that wasn't mutual.

Believe what you want about God. I don't recall telling you what to believe. But I do object to outsiders telling either Baptists or Catholics what we must believe, or how we must worship.

CS Lewis wrote an excellent essay called "God in the Dock". He argued that for most of human history, man worried about God's judgment. But modern man wants to put God on trial, and see if God is 'good enough' to merit our approval. Frankly, the idea that the Creator of the Universe needs to worry about the approval of bsms strikes me as kind of stupid. I will go or not go to a given church based on my beliefs, but my beliefs will never include the idea that God needs my stamp of approval.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Yes Allison I did lots and lots of stupid, foolish things.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Taffy Clayton said:


> No rant here, Just a reply.
> 
> Maybe she did that in HS because of the bullying you did in grade school, ever think of that?
> Screwing an ex, whats the prob there, you were done with him. he is fair game.
> ...


You're completely going back on what you said earlier.
Also, "sloppy seconds" arent exactly classy.

I do still have my diary from 6th grade....its 20 years old. Did you want a blow by blow description of exactly how and why we didnt get along? Im sure it even has quotes, since Im weird like that.

Cuz I figured saying "I didnt like her" was enough to encompass us butting heads 20 years ago....

PS. Must go observe my kids....I thought they were just playing, but excessive tickling may be considered assault these days. Go figure....


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

Taffy Clayton said:


> No rant here, Just a reply.
> 
> Maybe she did that in HS because of the bullying you did in grade school, ever think of that?


"_Today on Oprah...._ Teen's life ruined by grade school glue fight. Tonight at seven." :lol:

So because of being "bullied" this chick is no longer accountable for her actions and Demonwolf is to blame? Well then.

Maybe we should ask Demonwolf what made her pour glue on this girl in the first place. She may have an excuse.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

I have no interest in you diary, I replied to your post and the information you gave in it.

"PS. Must go observe my kids....I thought they were just playing, but excessive tickling may be considered assault these days. Go figure...."

Hopefully you keep the glue locked up.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Those writings of Paul always seem a very far cry from the humble. loving Jesus of Nazareth who chose a woman of allegedly ill repute (though the Second Vatican Council removed label this in 1969) as one of his companions during his teaching mission including being with him in the two most vital times in his life, his crucifixion and resurrection.
God most certainly does not need our approval - however the Churches and the leaders of those Churches that all claim to represent him do if they are to survive because they need bums on seats to keep the funds coming in to pay their bills.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Brightyes as I stated before I only replied to the information in the post.

If there is a reason for pouring glue on someone, then it is okay?

You can go on justifying the action all you like, but I see no justification.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Taffy Clayton said:


> I have no interest in you diary, I replied to your post and the information you gave in it.
> 
> "PS. Must go observe my kids....I thought they were just playing, but excessive tickling may be considered assault these days. Go figure...."
> 
> Hopefully you keep the glue locked up.


nope, its right out there in the crafts cabinet along with scissors and my sewing pins. No incidents yet. I even have several packs of gum in the pantry! O_O

Guess Im not raising any of those "kids these days" that you mentioned, the little heathens who face no consequences...or my kids are really good at covering their tracks. *shrug"


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

Taffy Clayton said:


> Brightyes as I stated before I only replied to the information in the post.
> 
> If there is a reason for pouring glue on someone, then it is okay?
> 
> You can go on justifying the action all you like, but I see no justification.



Not so much justification (you seemed to want to justify Demonwolf's friends actions, however) as my trying to say that an isolated incident among bickering 12-year-olds can't be put in the same category as personality altering bullying. Maybe it was bullying -- but it was bullying in the same way that taking a newspaper without paying once is stealing. It is stealing. And it should be punished appropriately. But so is taking clothes from a department store or snatching a wallet from a stranger. Or jacking the crown jewels from the tower of London. This broad definition of "stealing" is comparable to your definition of "bullying", but you suggest that all bullying is created equal when it simply is not. That was my main issue. 

Also, I can justify pouring glue on someone if they're on fire and that's all I got. :lol: Debate that logic!


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Brighteyes said:


> Also, I can justify pouring glue on someone if they're on fire and that's all I got. :lol: Debate that logic!


Bully for you Brighteyes!


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

jaydee said:


> Those writings of Paul always seem a very far cry from the humble. loving Jesus of Nazareth who chose a woman of allegedly ill repute (though the Second Vatican Council removed label this in 1969) as one of his companions during his teaching mission including being with him in the two most vital times in his life, his crucifixion and resurrection.
> God most certainly does not need our approval - however the Churches and the leaders of those Churches that all claim to represent him do if they are to survive because they need bums on seats to keep the funds coming in to pay their bills.


I am not versed well enough on the bible to be able to quote it...but "somewhere in there"  it says that (paraphrasing here) it is up to the individual to ensure the church they attend is "genuine". I would take this to mean that not all leaders have His "approval".


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Foxhunter said:


> I am not a Catholic but am of an age where I know several people who were brought up to be Catholic and have deserted their faith - usually because of the hypocrisy they recognised as they got older and went out into the real world.
> One of my riding instructors was in a Catholic boarding school from a very early age as her parents were based in Africa
> Some of the tales she told about the nuns were horrific, nothing less than cruelty in many cases with less compassion than a plank of wood.
> She worked with horses for a very tough top lady rider. One of the conditions of her employment was she could go to Mass every Sunday. She had to cycle to get there.
> ...


That like stepping out in rush hour traffic and then blaming god for getting hit by a truck. Or jumping off a cliff( just to see if you can fly) and then blaming god for hitting the ground. There are consequences for bad decisions. 

I love these religion bashing threads. :shock:


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Taffy and Demon-how about a "glue" thread of your own? just a thought. ;-)


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> It doesn't baffle me. Why would someone seek the approval of a church whose teachings they reject? _It isn't the job of any church to kiss the butts of non-believers._


You've exactly proved why I dislike the Catholic church.

So apparently there is no such thing as forgiveness.
No such thing as being sorry for your sins. 
No such thing as wanting to seek repentance and to improve yourself.
No such thing as wanting to get closer to God again.
Once you've sinned, you're screwed. Don't bother coming back. 

Where did you get non-believer from?? My friend and her fiance made a mistake. How does that make them non-believers? 

You're saying that once my friend and her fiance made the mistake of living together, they are now "kicked out" of the church and can never possibly be sorry for their sins, can't move out and get different living arrangements until they are married, and can't try to make it morally right. Wow. That's a very brightening thought to anyone who's ever made a mistake. You think very much like that priest did that refused to marry them for their mistake, and _refused to help them change to be better Catholics._ 




bsms said:


> *The church doesn't need people.* It needs God.


If there are no people who seek God, who's even going to build it to worship Him? The church cannot survive without people. The religion itself can, because one can worship in other ways outside of church, but the church cannot.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Missy May said:


> I am not versed well enough on the bible to be able to quote it...but "somewhere in there"  it says that (paraphrasing here) it is up to the individual to ensure the church they attend is "genuine". I would take this to mean that not all leaders have His "approval".


 The Christian church was still so much in its infancy then and really no clear doctrine so I would think there would be as many 'splinter groups' or potential for as we have now with each region wanting to hang on to some old traditions to appease the people and maybe not to offend the old Gods 'just in case'
Paul was never with Christ and as the story goes had been a one time persecutor of Christians with a foot in each camp of the Roman ruled world he lived in and the Jewish world he was raised in (he was a Pharisee) and a lot of his teachings seem to lean towards those ways of doing things so women being seen and not heard was very much in keeping with that regime. His status as a Roman citizen and as a Jewish citizen was a really important advantage to him in his mission so I doubt he would have wanted to rock either of those boats too much so maybe their were some compromises or maybe he really believed that was the right way.
The Celtic Christian church was having to merge into a society where women were able to be as powerful as men and hold positions in society and religion that men could if they wanted too so must have taken a lot more convincing


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

How interesting that someone would not be married in a Catholic Church because they were living together. That sounds like a church specific ordeal. Maybe even priest specific.

When I got married in 2011, we were living together, I had an unbaptized child out of wedlock, said child is not my husband's, and I was only baptized Catholic. The deacon , used said we could still have the protest wed us and even have a full mass. I said no because I can't take Communion and I know how much longer that makes the whole ceremony. It just seemed needless to me. We did have the deacon marry us, though, without issue.

Eta: all this after I made it known in our "compatibility test" that i don't want more children and use birth control. Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

SEAmom said:


> How interesting that someone would not be married in a Catholic Church because they were living together. That sounds like a church specific ordeal. Maybe even priest specific.
> 
> When I got married in 2011, we were living together, I had an unbaptized child out of wedlock, said child is not my husband's, and I was only baptized Catholic. The deacon , used said we could still have the protest wed us and even have a full mass. I said no because I can't take Communion and I know how much longer that makes the whole ceremony. It just seemed needless to me. We did have the deacon marry us, though, without issue.
> 
> ...


I agree, this sounds more like a priest issue to me. I know a lot of catholics who lived together for years before getting married with no issues by their church.


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