# What in the world is going on here?



## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

I do not for the life of me understand what this woman is trying to do with this horse, and what this could possibly accomplish besides making the horse head shy. Maybe making him yield to pressure? Can anyone shed some light on this?

Supposedly this is off of a Pat Parelli DVD.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

She's trying to make the horse yield to pressure by backing up when the rope is swung around, but as she's giving no release when the horse does the right thing, he's ten shades of confused.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

This is a perfect example of why you need more "tools" to ask the same thing. Horse obviously isn't "getting it" from this cue. Try another. But Parelli uses primarily this method, so this is pretty much all you will see. Perhaps even letting the horse be for a minute and trying again would help. UGH.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Looks like a very willing horse, too. Too bad he ended up in the hands he did.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

equiniphile said:


> She's trying to make the horse yield to pressure by backing up when the rope is swung around, but as she's giving no release when the horse does the right thing, he's ten shades of confused.


That was what I was thinking, I'm working on pressure with my disrespectful gelding, but not like this.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

Well, color me confused!


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

This is an old video that has had many discussions. Linda Parelli has a horse with only ONE eye who is, obviously overwhelmed. It is definitely not a good example of what she preaches.....


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

The idiot is trying to make the horse back up. When the horse backs up the idiot is supposed to stop swinging the rope. Eventually the horse will back up by jjust wagging your finger. But unfortunately neither the idiot or the horse know what the heck is going on. If done correctly the horse would be backing with just a wag of the finger by the end of the tape.

I didn't watch the entire tape, it looks like it just gets worse.


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## Prinella (Jul 12, 2011)

to me this video is a great example of when somethings not working try something else. I was working with a horse who insisted on doing this backup by going sideways / diagonally. I grabbed my carrot stick to help keep him straight. worked within 3 goes.


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## tbcrazy (Sep 27, 2012)

I REALLY REALLY dislike seeing horses get wailed on the jaw/chin with a hard piece of metal... :/ I will only use rope halters without a metal clip to really work a horse; if it's grooming and tacking up I don't mind the metal clips. I think those buckles do more damage than people think.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Prinella said:


> to me this video is a great example of when somethings not working try something else. I was working with a horse who insisted on doing this backup by going sideways / diagonally. I grabbed my carrot stick to help keep him straight. worked within 3 goes.



But it did work. If you look on the tape in the first 20 sec the horse backed up 3 different times and the handler never released pressure. The horse did it correctly but was never told he did the right thing, from there it went down hill, the horse just guessing as to what was wanted and no clear signals ever given.


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## OutOfTheLoop (Apr 1, 2012)

That's the most absurd thing I've seen in a while when it cones to how to teach a horse to do something. WOW
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## katec1991 (Jun 25, 2012)

Poor horse =/ His nose was probably pretty sore after that one. Usually, there are three levels of stimulation when trying to teach a horse to back up with wagging the rope. First you wag your finger, then you gently move your wrist, then harder until they take just one step back. Then you release pressure, praise like they did something truly amazing, and ask again. Eventually, like someone already stated, the horse will back up from just wiggling your finger, like my gelding does now. You don't just sit there and flail the rope around expecting the horse to just understand what you want without praise. No wonder he was getting all sweaty and nervous


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## LesandLily (Oct 8, 2012)

That was horrible. I didn't realize it was Linda parelli until a few minutes in. What happened to Ask, Tell, Demand. She went right for demand. She has the worst timing I have ever seen on a supposed big time horse trainer. Makes me glad I don't prescribe to Parelli.

Cheers.
Les
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

As Allison Finch said, this is an older video. It apparently received a fair bit of controversy at the time to the point Ms Parelli posted a videotaped rebuttal (not unlike what Mr Anderson did (hers was tamer) as discussed on the other thread here that is currently receiving attention). The gist of that was it was a difficult horse and thus the tactic taken. A number of the other posters have captured my sentiments as to the questionable validity of the method.


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## Lunavi (Jun 5, 2012)

LesandLily said:


> That was horrible. I didn't realize it was Linda parelli until a few minutes in. What happened to Ask, Tell, Demand. She went right for demand. She has the worst timing I have ever seen on a supposed big time horse trainer. Makes me glad I don't prescribe to Parelli.
> 
> Cheers.
> Les
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I completely agree! This is the equivalent to yelling like a madman before you've asked nicely. Poor pony! How do you ever expect your horse to learn and become "soft" if your first move is to "yell" at them? My horses move back the second I shift my body and raise the lead rope, I rarely have to get to the wiggle, forget about the flailing.


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## trampis67 (Nov 14, 2010)

LesandLily said:


> That was horrible. I didn't realize it was Linda parelli until a few minutes in. What happened to Ask, Tell, Demand. She went right for demand. * She has the worst timing I have ever seen on a supposed big time horse trainer. * Makes me glad I don't prescribe to Parelli.
> 
> Cheers.
> Les
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree 110%. I guess marrying Pat Parelli made her an instant level 4. She has worse timing that most level one students Ive seen. Not just in this video either. I see it from her all the time.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

I thought this was the WWJJWHACK one...sad to see there are more than that one out there.

She actually has no clue as to what she is wanting to accomplish.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

It explains why most of the 'PPNH horses' I have encountered are mad and sour. I think they only take so much of this kind of crap before they get pi$$ed. I would.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

You are supposed to start with just your finger, then wrist, to elbow to shoulder while swinging the rope. In my case, with a very stubborn 3 yr old, after all that you swing the rope and let it hit him under the jaw so he thinks he hurt himself. He is very lazy, stubborn, and a very slow learner. As for this horse, I don't believe he needed as much push push push, he seemed very high energy where when he learned what they were asking, he would do it in a heartbeat. It's sad to see that good NH methods are made to look bad


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Did anyone notice how that big clip whacks the horse in the jaw? He get whacked then yanked as the rope swings side to side. To keep a horse out of my space I find it more effective to walk with it and switch direction when it gets too close. There's no clip to whack him under the jaw but he will get an abrupt pull on the halter if he's not paying attention. I just focus on where I'm walking. Before long he'll be mindful so avoid the sudden pull on the halter. The horse gets about 6' of lead. After direction changin half a dozen times when I stop, he's content to stop and stay out of my space. The moment he does we start walking and switching directions. Backing a horse out of your space is not a herd response as horses rarely back up, they will, but not very often. Instead they will turn and move in a forward direction as that is how they are built. So Linda's method doesn't begin to resemble "natural horsemanship". But do look at that video as a How Not to Do It. With a high energy horse it is better to use the absolute least amount of energy when making a request-a bare whisper. This seems to pique the horse's interest rather than turning the situation into the horse seeing you as a predator. This brings up the flight or fight response.


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## tbcrazy (Sep 27, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> Did anyone notice how that big clip whacks the horse in the jaw? He get whacked then yanked as the rope swings side to side. To keep a horse out of my space I find it more effective to walk with it and switch direction when it gets too close. There's no clip to whack him under the jaw but he will get an abrupt pull on the halter if he's not paying attention. I just focus on where I'm walking. Before long he'll be mindful so avoid the sudden pull on the halter. The horse gets about 6' of lead. After direction changin half a dozen times when I stop, he's content to stop and stay out of my space. The moment he does we start walking and switching directions. Backing a horse out of your space is not a herd response as horses rarely back up, they will, but not very often. Instead they will turn and move in a forward direction as that is how they are built. So Linda's method doesn't begin to resemble "natural horsemanship". But do look at that video as a How Not to Do It.


I said that in my post on the first page :/ painful to watch. I teach mine to get the heck out of my space and disengage depending on which body part I step at- also use a flag if necessary, but you will rarely find me going to the horses head to fix something somewhere else on the body; if they need a sharp reprimand I'll use a halter, but in nature they don't beat each other on the face to get each others attention, I usually see them going to the shoulder to get a herd mate to move... Just my opinion. If I was trying to get that horse to pay attention to me a flag would be my first tool- I like that it's much quicker and specific than a stick or end of the lead rope for certain things
You nailed it with the backing up response, how unnatural it is. I teach mine to step away with the shoulder and move forward- but I don't crouch in a ball and point myself towards the back end... Don't really get that either.


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## amberly (Dec 16, 2012)

This is to teach the horse to yield from pressure and back. They are doing it wrong in this video though - Pat Parelli would be the one to ask, or someone like me to knows how to do it in a way that horses understand and get the best offer first.

What you are supposed to do:
STand in front of your horse holding the end of the lead. Stand squarely and serious-like. Then looking behind him (or i look at his hind feet) wiggle your finger to start. If he doesnt make a move to back, wiggle your wrist softly. Still doesn't go, wiggle wrist more, then wiggle rope using your forearm, then move the rope using your whole arms sweeping side -to-side.
It doesn't make your horse head-shy, and I always make sure I have no hardware on my halters. If there is, I don't go past the forearm movement. Sometimes not even that far, depending on how high the rope swings or how strong I'm swinging it.


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## tbcrazy (Sep 27, 2012)

amberly said:


> This is to teach the horse to yield from pressure and back. They are doing it wrong in this video though - Pat Parelli would be the one to ask, or someone like me to knows how to do it in a way that horses understand and get the best offer first.
> 
> What you are supposed to do:
> STand in front of your horse holding the end of the lead. Stand squarely and serious-like. Then looking behind him (or i look at his hind feet) wiggle your finger to start. If he doesnt make a move to back, wiggle your wrist softly. Still doesn't go, wiggle wrist more, then wiggle rope using your forearm, then move the rope using your whole arms sweeping side -to-side.
> It doesn't make your horse head-shy, and I always make sure I have no hardware on my halters. If there is, I don't go past the forearm movement. Sometimes not even that far, depending on how high the rope swings or how strong I'm swinging it.


Do you do parelli? If so, you're one of the first I've heard of that doesn't use a metal buckle 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fargosgirl (Jan 12, 2012)

This is NOT the complete clip! I have seen the whole video and this is being taken out of context. The goal was not to have the horse back up in this particular instance, the goal was to have the horse stand still, away from the owner, because it had been behaving very dangerously. 

This is about the middle of the session, the horse began by barging over it's owner nearly knocking him to the ground several times, this was about getting the horses attention. As for wiggling fingers at this horse, a phase one or two would have been completely ignored because the horse was overly excited by being in a new location with a bunch of strange horses. If the horse had been calm and paying attention lighter cues would have been used.


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## Fargosgirl (Jan 12, 2012)

I'd also like to point out that just prior to this piece of video the owner had tried using softer cues(poorly timed) that the horse just ran through. The owner had in essence spent about 5 minutes desensitizing the horse to the cues, so it would only respond intermittently, and began totally ignoring the softer cues. I don't think Linda did _too _badly considering the mess she was handed at the time.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

equiniphile said:


> She's trying to make the horse yield to pressure by backing up when the rope is swung around, but as she's giving no release when the horse does the right thing, he's ten shades of confused.


 Only 10 shades?????!!!!!!
There are far quieter, easier, non confrontational ways to teach a horse to back up with just a click (optional), voice command and small hand signal. After a while you don't even need the voice command
I see a horse here that's going to be very head shy


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

I would be very interested in seeing the full video, then, Fargosgirl.

But I do not understand why they would she let him drop his head and look around, if they wanted to keep his attention. And why when he did listen he was still hit? Still doesn't make sense.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I have seen the full video several times. In it I saw a half blind horse that was totally overwhelmed by all the activity at this clinic. The horse kept seeking to be close to the handler for support as he was very fearful. He had to look around more than a normal horse so that he could see all around with his one eye. Every time he looked around he was punished for being "distracted". 

Linda Parelli just plain lost her temper and got abusive out of angst. All because she thought the poor horse was "making her look bad". The horse should have been put away, for a while, so that he could digest all the clinic craziness, IMO.


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## ShelC (Sep 27, 2012)

The horse clearly never wanted to pay attention to her or the first handler in the first place. His head is looking all around everywhere else, (they're clearly not in his usual surroundings for this lesson). So she's asking him to do something before even getting his attention, something pretty advanced for his level, what it looks like. In this situation the best thing to have done was go back to basics on getting his attention. You can play a follow the leader game with your horse by moving all around the horse, pulling on the lead as gently as possible but as firm as necessary to turn his/her head towards you quickly. They're winning when they can keep up with you without you having to pull at all, so you progressively move around, back, forward, left, and right faster and faster. It's amazing how quickly they keep focused on you, eyes, ears, and nose. They really love this game too. It definitely seems more interesting than most other things around them. Once you get their full attention from this, which usually only takes a few minutes, you can more easily ask for a new command. I do this game before everything else with my horses. Very affective.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Horses panic when they are in the presence of panic. The handler looks panicky, and Linda sounds shrill. No amount of "games" are going to help, unless they calm the HANDLER.

JMO.

Nancy


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## Elizabeth Bowers (Jan 26, 2012)

I used this "game" with my pushy disrespectful colt, but i modified it in many ways. I mainly just jiggle the rope now to ask him to stop and stand still, and swing the loose end at him to back up. I don't like to hit him in the jaw with the metal clasp. 
I really liked parelli in the beginning, but after so many "games" my colt was still really disrespectful, and pushy, because they were too easy on him. So i combined a few tricks from other trainers, and so far so good. Some of the stuff doesn't make any sense to me....


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Parelli was the first method I ever learned and used it with my first crazy QH. It worked. However, over the years, while I can appreciate certain parts of it, just like other methods from other trainers, it has lost it's luster. I do like Pat, but have never liked Linda. I don't think she has a clue really.

This specific video shows Linda getting aggrevated and taking it out on the horse IMO. I understand a disrespectful horse that runs all over you. I had one. But losing your temper and not releasing the pressure when appropriate just made the whole thing worse. That horse deserved some releases there and didn't get them.

I also feel that if one way of doing things is doing nothing but making the situation out of control, then try a different way. Linda can't do that because it is the Parelli way, or no way. I think the most effective way is the one that the handler and horse can both communicate with the quickest way. Linda looked like she was having a tantrum while the horse was confused and not learning a thing.....IMO, of course.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Oldhorselady said:


> Parelli was the first method I ever learned and used it with my first crazy QH. It worked. However, over the years, while I can appreciate certain parts of it, just like other methods from other trainers, it has lost it's luster. I do like Pat, but have never liked Linda. I don't think she has a clue really.
> 
> This specific video shows Linda getting aggrevated and taking it out on the horse IMO. I understand a disrespectful horse that runs all over you. I had one. But losing your temper and not releasing the pressure when appropriate just made the whole thing worse. That horse deserved some releases there and didn't get them.
> 
> I also feel that if one way of doing things is doing nothing but making the situation out of control, then try a different way. Linda can't do that because it is the Parelli way, or no way. I think the most effective way is the one that the handler and horse can both communicate with the quickest way. Linda looked like she was having a tantrum while the horse was confused and not learning a thing.....IMO, of course.


 I sometimes think when you get a horse that thinks its a bulldozer or steam roller (like our Clyde x) its a lot easier to just give them one good crack across the chest with a schooling whip and tell them firmly to stand. I only ever did this once with her and now if she thinks about being pushy all I have to do is tell her to stand back in a louder than usual tone and she does as she's told - and that's 8 years on. I'm not one for getting aggressive with horses and its a bad idea to do things in anger/temper but a controlled bit of discipline doesn't hurt IMO if it means avoiding potential damage to a fragile human.
To use the method shown here to train a horse to back up though - I just don't get it at all, it doesn't even 'translate' to what you'd do in the saddle.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

jaydee said:


> I sometimes think when you get a horse that thinks its a bulldozer or steam roller (like our Clyde x) its a lot easier to just give them one good crack across the chest with a schooling whip and tell them firmly to stand. I only ever did this once with her and now if she thinks about being pushy all I have to do is tell her to stand back in a louder than usual tone and she does as she's told - and that's 8 years on. I'm not one for getting aggressive with horses and its a bad idea to do things in anger/temper but a controlled bit of discipline doesn't hurt IMO if it means avoiding potential damage to a fragile human.
> To use the method shown here to train a horse to back up though - I just don't get it at all, it doesn't even 'translate' to what you'd do in the saddle.


I see now how this method doesn't really translate with backing up. However, at the time, it was all I knew and it did actually help my horse and I have communication and create a bond. The main thing I needed with her at the time, was a calm way to allow me to interact with her to where I wouldn't get killed being a beginner horse owner/rider.

I don't believe in aggression either, but if the circumstance is dangerous, I will do what it takes during that moment. However, when that moment is over, it's over, and we start again. I try to keep in mind what another horse would do....and that often would be much more dramatic than what I could do to defend myself.

I've now had four horses, all different breeds and personalities. Two aggressive and two the polar opposite. I have used different tactics for all four....whichever one made it the easiest for us to communicate effectively.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

Oldhorselady said:


> ... I have used different tactics for all four....whichever one made it the easiest for us to communicate effectively.


Well, Oldhorselady, I do believe you have made a very profound statement


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think its only when you've owned several horses that are all different that you realize that the 'one size fits all' style of training wont work. I'm sure people can be lucky and just have that horse that these things do work for and that makes them believe they've found the miracle technique - then you get the one that didn't read the right manual and it all falls apart!!!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

:wink:


jaydee said:


> I think its only when you've owned several horses that are all different that you realize that the 'one size fits all' style of training wont work. I'm sure people can be lucky and just have that horse that these things do work for and that makes them believe they've found the miracle technique - then you get the one that didn't read the right manual and it all falls apart!!!


You are right. I never thought about it that way....I've been lucky enough to have four very different horses to see that one way is NOT the only way.

If I used the training I did with my crazy, scared to death of everything QH....the OTTB would have laughed and killed me and the two I have now would stand there like a statue with a question mark above their heads.:wink:


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## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

*backing up rope video*

compleatley point less exercise 0% acheved there the horse wont give ground at all.
it seem it wants to join up if thats what it been taught to do,
or it will end up head shy and more problems to solve.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

That just made me extremely angry & sad! That was just horrific! And I only read the first page comments, but surely I'm not the only one who REALLY feels like going there & kicking her in the head?? Well, I'm not actually one for confrontations, so maybe 'just' putting a halter - no, a cradle bridle - on her & 'teaching' her some tricks with her methods!!:evil::evil: But seriously, how isn't that animal cruelty?? Was I the only one that watched that was barracking for the horse, willing it to fight back??

I can understand the first guy, obviously a student that obviously has little clue & a bad instructor, I can understand people misinterpreting stuff, but if I'm not mistaken, that instructor is actually Linda Parelli??


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

loosie said:


> That just made me extremely angry & sad! That was just horrific! And I only read the first page comments, but surely I'm not the only one who REALLY feels like going there & kicking her in the head?? Well, I'm not actually one for confrontations, so maybe 'just' putting a halter - no, a cradle bridle - on her & 'teaching' her some tricks with her methods!!:evil::evil: But seriously, how isn't that animal cruelty?? Was I the only one that watched that was barracking for the horse, willing it to fight back??
> 
> I can understand the first guy, obviously a student that obviously has little clue & a bad instructor, I can understand people misinterpreting stuff, but if I'm not mistaken, that instructor is actually Linda Parelli??


Yep, that is Linda herself. Doesn't surprise me though since, to me, she always seemed not too patient if things weren't going her way and frazzled. I do like Pat. Not to say any trainer can't have a bad day or a more difficult horse to work with. However, this example was not one that I would have considered so over the top that that she had to completely cloud the waters for the horse and the student. But, I'm not a trainer.

I didn't realize the horse only had one eye too.


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## Mochachino (Aug 14, 2012)

*Confused horse. No release to the pressure.*


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

As has been said, that was absolutely grotesque.

But, beyond the actual handling of the horse, am I the only one who was twitching and wanting to reach through the screen and fix their halter?


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## tbcrazy (Sep 27, 2012)

smrobs said:


> As has been said, that was absolutely grotesque.
> 
> But, beyond the actual handling of the horse, am I the only one who was twitching and wanting to reach through the screen and fix their halter?


I wanted to smack her in the chin with the buckle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

smrobs said:


> As has been said, that was absolutely grotesque.
> 
> But, beyond the actual handling of the horse, am I the only one who was twitching and wanting to reach through the screen and fix their halter?


Yes, I wanted to reach through the screen & 'fix' it onto her neck as a choke collar and...


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## KountryPrincess (Oct 23, 2012)

Allison Finch said:


> This is an old video that has had many discussions. Linda Parelli has a horse with only ONE eye who is, obviously overwhelmed. It is definitely not a good example of what she preaches.....


Totally OT, but is that you in your avatar pic Allison? If it is, you are a beautiful rider. Love the leg position, not ahead of the horse, right with it. Just so pretty....

Back on topic, I know many of my friends back their horses shaking the rope, they are Parelli followers. Chris Cox once made the comment that he does not like to teach horses to back like that because they learn to back up with their nose in the air. I see that as true with my friend's horses, they do back differently than my mare, who was taught differently.

I taught mine to back up from the ground with nose/chest pressure and release, and now she just backs up with a verbal from me. But she tucks her nose neatly and rocks back on her hineys when she does it. I like a horse to back a little tucked up, it is what I expect when I am riding so she may as well do it right all the time. That is what works for us.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Fargosgirl said:


> This is NOT the complete clip! I have seen the whole video and this is being taken out of context. The goal was not to have the horse back up in this particular instance, the goal was to have the horse stand still, away from the owner, because it had been behaving very dangerously.
> 
> This is about the middle of the session, the horse began by barging over it's owner nearly knocking him to the ground several times, this was about getting the horses attention. As for wiggling fingers at this horse, a phase one or two would have been completely ignored because the horse was overly excited by being in a new location with a bunch of strange horses. If the horse had been calm and paying attention lighter cues would have been used.



I've worked at the racetrack and been a professional groom and travelled extensively with these animals......strange horses, strange places.....and I've had them go berserk and never had to use such a ridiculous rope waggling 'technique' EVER. Those are all excuses you have just written in your above quoted reply. A good horse handler can get a wired up racehorse down 2km of roadway past brass bands, crowds, screaming kids, vehicles etc and safely into the birdcage.......even managing to stop for the farrier check and safely out onto the course proper......you'd get absolutely nowhere waggling 20ft of rope at a horse like that.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

I haven't watched many the Parelli DVDs, just excerpts here and there, but as far as I understand, this is from the old Level 1 DVD set. Is this correct?

Assuming the above is correct, does she do better now, years later? Is this how she performs consistently, or was it a rare occurrence?


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

equiniphile said:


> She's trying to make the horse yield to pressure by backing up when the rope is swung around, but as she's giving no release when the horse does the right thing, he's ten shades of confused.


Exactly what I thought. I noticed the same think. And when this isnt happening, you'll notice his attention starts drifting. He has no idea what the is supposed to do. They wave the rope, and he steps back ans they still do it. I noticed she became more aggressive with him when he wasnt getting it, but it was her fault. Try another method, Like pushing his head toward his chest and telling him to back, then when he takes a step, release.

But now that it was mentioned. You can also watch and see him stepping back into the trainer and owner, when they are asking him to step back so they didnt let pressure up.


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## Horsequeen08 (Jun 24, 2007)

Um... WHAT?! 

I...I don't understand. I don't udnerstand at all what is going on here. I mean I do, but I don't. I think I get what they were going for (attention, not going forward, backing up) but the execution of it...the execution of it made me want to execute Linda! Ok maybe no kill her, but more like....ban her from horses. I may not be a horse trainer, per se, but even I know you gotta REWARD your horse when he does it RIGHT. 

Yeah, I wanted to reach through the screen too, but I wanted to do a little more than fix his halter.....


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Fargosgirl explained what happened accurately, imo. If one watches attentively, one can see that Linda didn't lose her temper, or get emotional about the horse being frightened, bargey, etc., a good example being when she stood stock still & lowered her head & bodily energy, mirroring the horse when the horse came down off the adrenaline, shown by his standing still & lowering his head.

Also, this was a demonstration for Level 1, gunsels/newbies who are only learning to stay safe & keep the horse safe. For Level 1/kindergarten, it was an adequate demo, since a horse ignoring humans as possibilities of being its leader, thus not respecting their bubble, & right-brainedly trying to leave & find a horse alpha _was_ kept safely with the handler (Linda, who had to take over for owner). One eye only compounded the danger, of course.

The horse could've been handled with more finesse, more inner potency from any number of developed horsemen (Pat could've calmed him down w/ more finesse), but no Level 1 student can be expected to emulate those higher levels, so as a Level 1 demo, it's fine, except for the fact that once they put the horse safely out at end of rope to stand in his "box", Linda failed to instruct as to how to then get him from the box to point B. Eventually, one has got to move one's horse.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Afraid trying to justify horrific handling because the student was a 'gunsel' only makes it worse IMO - we can see the guy obviously doesn't have a clue & he hasn't got much chance of learning better only being instructed by a confusing bully with bad timing! Yes, I did notice she didn't lose her temper (noticably), she did negatively reinforce the horse once or twice, but whoop de do - far too little good points, that don't make what she demonstrated OK.

BTW, in case of assumptions, I don't at all have a prob with force when necessary, including 'bumping' a horse with a halter when necessary, I do understand the (supposed) principles behind it & the exercises & methods I use include a lot of (older) Parelli stuff.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There are far less confrontational ways to 'get a horse to move'
It just looked to me as if all the problems the horse was having and its behavioral issues were actually being caused by the method being used here. It was a hindrance not a help.
Would have been better to have not created the confusion in the first place.


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## amberly (Dec 16, 2012)

tbcrazy said:


> Do you do parelli? If so, you're one of the first I've heard of that doesn't use a metal buckle
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



yes, I do do Parelli. I also follow some of Buck Brannaman's too, but I follow Parelli as well.Honestly, I am not that surprised with the hardware issue. Not many people stop to think what JUST the hardware is doing.


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## tbcrazy (Sep 27, 2012)

amberly said:


> yes, I do do Parelli. I also follow some of Buck Brannaman's too, but I follow Parelli as well.Honestly, I am not that surprised with the hardware issue. Not many people stop to think what JUST the hardware is doing.


Good for you. And if more people 'stopped to think' I believe a lot of horses would be better off. Unfortunately it seems like people get sucked into believing in only one way, and the equipment that goes with it instead of using their own judgement :/ I like Brannaman too; his daughter will be teaching the colt starting class next year at the local university.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Annanoel (Mar 29, 2011)

A lot of the NH halter and longer lead / lunge rope sets have the buckle on them. PP does, CA does, and a few other trainers. I don't like using these on my horses, the buckle can hurt the horse. I actually had an EX-trainer use one and broke her horses teeth when the buckle hit. I can't stand having all that weight right there either.

If I'm not mistaken Pat and Linda met at a clinic where she had a "problem" horse... She should NOT be taking up training, Pat is alright in my opinion, but Linda has no right to be doing this. The video whether out of context or not is very harsh and there is NO release at all, this is one confused horse. Some people wonder why there are so many problem horses, because people like her create them and think they are "training." 

I saw / met her at Midwest Horse Fair last year and didn't like her overall attitude. People were asking her questions regarding training and so forth. She couldn't answer with a straight answer, deflected and had an overall arrogant attitude. She was more than willing to sell their products though and give the whole thing on how and why they work better than anything on the market. Didn't really make me want to be interested or follow Parelli TBH.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I don't like that 10 lb snap because *I* always got hit with it!!!! OUCH!

Nancy


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

"What in the world is going on here?" 

In response to the title.... 

The 'trainer' has been impowered to think they know what they are doing. Many many people throw millions of $ at the trainer, and so they never question themselves and continue with their arrogant ways. 

Supporters see videos like this, or the Catwalk video and continue to blindly follow, even justify what they have seen. 

End result - I will never ever buy a Parellified horse. Those poor beasts.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

What we have here is an incompetent, over-confident, over-paid nutjob with a terrible sense of timing, who loses her temper when she can't get immediate results and takes it out on the horse.

Let's forget, for a moment, about the last name of this "trainer." Let's forget who she is married to. 

In fact, let's pretend that it's a _totally different_ person, but treating the same animal the same way. Flailing about, whacking a half-blind horse with the metal clip and smacking it in the face with her hand, never giving the animal a hint about what she wants it to do RIGHT but so quick to punish punish punish everything it does "wrong." 

Let's pretend this video was taken in the warm-up arena at a horse show. You know, where all those "terrible, traditional, abusive" horse people go to chase after ribbons and points and supposedly don't understand what it means to hav a bond with a horse.

Would all those people who say there's "nothing wrong with what's happening" in this video be so quick to defend everything that's happening here, if it was done by anyone else BUT a Parelli?


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Wow only watched the first two minutes. What the hay was going on there!!! I mean, I get the concept but OUCH! That was a tad to harsh in my books.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Annanoel said:


> ...I actually had an EX-trainer use one and broke her horses teeth when the buckle hit...QUOTE]
> 
> This is a very important bit of info for us; thanks! I heard of another horse who got nerve damage under his chin from the "whanging", also, & read of a chiropractor who told a PNH student that the whanging caused her horse to have chiro problems in its spine, because the head raises & back hollows & hind legs stiffen, to back up via whanging. (Thanks to poster who priorly brought this up, too!)
> 
> ...


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Finished watching it. All I can say is WTF and that horse must have a head ache and a half! I'm surprised he didn't blow up and take her out. I know my mare would be up on her back legs if someone was nipping at her constantly like that. All I see there is fear and a situation where, if that horse was the sort to say F...you puny human, it could have got very nasty. 
Not a cool thing for anyone to do IMO


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## tbcrazy (Sep 27, 2012)

Northern said:


> Annanoel said:
> 
> 
> > ...I actually had an EX-trainer use one and broke her horses teeth when the buckle hit...QUOTE]
> ...


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Let us not forget either the other video that showed up the first time _this_ vid was posted. You know, the one where LP had a halter hanging on a wood fence and was proceeding to show a "student" the optimum way to "snap" the lead so that the heavy duty snap would dole out the most pain on the horse...thus _making_ it respond :evil:.

That particular video, of course, has since been the victim of a seek and destroy mission.


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## tbcrazy (Sep 27, 2012)

smrobs said:


> Let us not forget either the other video that showed up the first time _this_ vid was posted. You know, the one where LP had a halter hanging on a wood fence and was proceeding to show a "student" the optimum way to "snap" the lead so that the heavy duty snap would dole out the most pain on the horse...thus _making_ it respond :evil:.


SERIOUSLY?! Ugh.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

smrobs said:


> Let us not forget either the other video that showed up the first time _this_ vid was posted. You know, the one where LP had a halter hanging on a wood fence and was proceeding to show a "student" the optimum way to "snap" the lead so that the heavy duty snap would dole out the most pain on the horse...thus _making_ it respond :evil:.
> 
> That particular video, of course, has since been the victim of a seek and destroy mission.


:shock:
:-(
:evil:

:-x

^ They evolution of my emotions.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Oh, yes. That is one video that I watched only once and will remember until the day I die. Talk about disgusting.

I mean, it's one thing for a truly experienced trainer to resort to pain when all else fails, but for anyone to _purposefully_ teach a novice handler that....well, it's just deplorable IMHO.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

That's the phase 5 which I described: wind-up & send the energy spiraling down rope to whack the fence/chuck the horse. 

A student on that video segment asked Linda if it didn't tend to hurt the horse, & Linda replied that it's nothing compared to what another horse can/will do to an out-of-control beta horse. Seemed reasonable, till I learned of broken teeth, damaged nerves, & chiro problems.


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## tbcrazy (Sep 27, 2012)

Northern said:


> That's the phase 5 which I described: wind-up & send the energy spiraling down rope to whack the fence/chuck the horse.
> 
> A student on that video segment asked Linda if it didn't tend to hurt the horse, & Linda replied that it's nothing compared to what another horse can/will do to an out-of-control beta horse. Seemed reasonable, till I learned of broken teeth, damaged nerves, & chiro problems.


That's disgusting :/

When I think about "what another horse will do", I have yet to see a horse go after another one holding a chunk of metal with the idea of connecting with the other horse's chin... I can see a smack on the shoulder...neck...hip...but not chin...

That's where people get in trouble- they take a human action and project that "oh, in nature they will do that", in many cases where no, it is not what a horse would do in nature.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Probably the argument of what another horse'd do to a horse should be left out of human handling issues, since horses have been known to be both light & perplexingly harsh on each other. (Of course, they've had to be predominantly light/supportive of each other's wellbeing in order to survive in wild herds). 

Always, the rule for humans is to be as light/non-damaging as possible, to preserve their horses.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Smrobs, I had the misfortune of seeing that video too, and I clearly remember the same thing you do. However all videos with a negative slant are removed by PP and they force others to remove them too. 


Northern, from time to time, horses will kill each other. Anything can be argued as not as bad as horses will do to each other. 

People need to wake up.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

> Originally Posted by *tbcrazy*
> Do you do parelli? If so, you're one of the first I've heard of that doesn't use a metal buckle


When I first got into 'PNH', being a relative novice re training, not having many good egs to learn from otherwise, seeing the 'magic' that Pat demonstrated... did start with a heavy snap on a heavy rope, caused my very compliant horse to become resistive... 

Apart from learning that there were other clearer ways to get your message across & back it up, I do even now like the *principle* behind teaching backing up with wiggling a finger/rope. It's not the particular cue you use that is problematic IME, but the way it's done.

One of the things that I decided early in the piece is that I didn't like the heavy rope & snap. Aside from the arguments about whacking horses with heavy snaps, the point of the rope halter IMO, training-wise is not just that you can potentially get 'strong' if needed because of the thin rope, but that it's light & comfortable, so the horse gets it's 'release' when you quit asking & (should) hardly feel the headgear. Something heavy dragging on his nose & poll negate that plus. 

So I've always(well, since a few months in... remember getting told it was wrong at a PNH clinic I attended not too far into my 'trip') used a soft(not stiff) yacht braid rope halter, adjusted so the nosepiece isn't low on their sensitive nose & fragile bones... oh & no 'strategic' knots over the horse's nose either, with a light 1/2" yacht braid rope, tied on as you tie the halter.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AlexS said:


> Northern, from time to time, horses will kill each other. Anything can be argued as not as bad as horses will do to each other.


Yes! I've never got why people think that's a reasonable argument for paying out on a horse - it's just not rational.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

loosie said:


> Apart from learning that there were other clearer ways to get your message across & back it up, I do even now like the *principle* behind teaching backing up with wiggling a finger/rope. It's not the particular cue you use that is problematic IME, but the way it's done.



I once had a barn owner tell me how ill mannered my mare at the time was because she didn't back up to a wiggled lead rope. Heck at that time, I wouldn't have known that horses do that. I ride English, I am still yet to have a horse who would back up to that, likely never will. 
Now if you pull back on the lead rope, every horse I have ever owned would back up until you told them to stop. Put a palm on their chest, same deal - a wiggled rope, nope not ever.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AlexS said:


> am still yet to have a horse who would back up to that, likely never will.
> Now if you pull back on the lead rope, every horse I have ever owned would back up until you told them to stop. Put a palm on their chest, same deal - a wiggled rope, nope not ever.


Yep, and direct backward pressure is the main way I'd 'back up'(pardon the pun!) my backup cue when teaching the horse, so I don't have to get heavy handed & cause *reactions* such as we saw in the vid. Each to their own as far as the particular cues we teach our horses I reckon - particular cues may be more or less valuable in different situations & if you only ride in arenas & such, there's probably no need to teach a horse to do things like backing up 'remotely', but the reason I like teaching horses 'remote' cues is because I ride in the bush, mountains, narrow, steep trails & such & find it valuable that they know how to go forwards, backwards or sideways, turn towards or away from me when I'm at a distance, in the case of narrow, hairy trails for eg.


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## Annanoel (Mar 29, 2011)

Not trying to fuel the fire anymore but this was posted on her blog recently... 



> *Being Natural in the Normal World*
> 
> by Linda Parelli on April 4, 2012
> 
> ...


This just astounds me, that she post something like that after seeing her handle horses both in person and in the videos the way she does. I think she needs some more tranining before being unleashed on the horses. :/ I think she has pulled the wool over her own eyes so to speak, and doesn't realize how she is actually reacting and what she's doing to these horses.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

^^^^^^ oh good lawd...if ever there was a pair of snake oil salesmen...these two would be it.

They over complicate everything.....everything....and they do it to make people feel insecure about using their own common sense....because the methods they use are non-sensical to me and many others, and we didn't just roll out if the turnip patch...


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Oh God . . . That just makes me disrespect her even more. It's disturbing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

She's a moron, plain and simple. 

I think most of us have lost our cool at some point, I know I have for sure been frustrated. However she is supposed to be a professional she lost her cool while working - I don't think I've ever done that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horsequeen08 (Jun 24, 2007)

AlexS said:


> She's a moron, plain and simple.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


HAHAHA. I read this as "She is a MORMON, plain and simple." 

I was like woah, wait, WHAT?! haha! I need to learn to read.

On another note, I have no words for her blog message and that video....none.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Annanoel said:


> I think she needs some more tranining before being unleashed on the horses.


Ah but in Pat's words, you can lead a man to knowledge but you can't make him think!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*Jolly Badger* You totally got it right. If Parelli fans saw these things being done by anyone else they'd be calling for the Animal Protection groups.
Its time people started looking through the rainbows and frilly language that a lot of these 'trainers' spew out and smell some of the s**t as well as the roses


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

It may sometimes be necessary to send a lot of energy down the line so that it snaps the halter (thus, don't use metal clips!). If the horse is fixated somewhere else and is about to walk right over the top of you, you need to get his mind back on you, pronto. There are other ways to move a horse's mind. 
You can also take the end of the lead rope and twirl it and smack it real hard into the ground. It makes a loud noise and will get the horse's attention immediadately, without actually hitting him.

THEN, you try to move his feet. You don't try to move his feet until you have his mind . I know that she was trying to get him mind, but the repeated, rythmic jerkind on the halter were not doing it, and were only building the horse's tolerance to that kind of stuff.

A horse that is really worried like that one should be allowed to move his feet, to deal with his anxiety. NOT into the handler, but around the handler. Forcing it to stand still is only going to bottle up the stress. 

The timing was just so awful, in every part except when she finally noticed he was ready to put his head down and she joined him. I was half expecting the horse to get so frustrated as to come up and over her.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Agreed with above comments. You should always think of the end goal, which for ME is an obedient leading/tying/riding horse who understands my cues and body language. I prefer to teach "back" and then get my horse to listen to either the English and/or a pull back on the nose with the halter, and/'or a wave of the lead and stop after one or two steps. I am thrilled that my big gelding will back up to 10 steps or just one step at a time when I enter his stall, wave my hand up and say, "back."
I think that hands on teaching is missing.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I actually have used this method, correctly, and with better results, I might add, and yes, if the horse is not paying attention something needs to be done to get it before you just continue yanking the horse around. THe end of those leads works well, but I would be swinging it at the horses chest, myself-better yet, my stick.....my horse knows that if he is not paying attention and is asked to back-the stick swings in front of him at chest level. If he does not move-it WILL hit hit. I swing it and walk. If he isn't backing, it will make contact. He learned quickly that when ask he better pay attention. THe other method is to generate "energy" with your hands and arms. I do that sometimes, especially if the horse has no halter on and I have nothing. Arms up, hands flat open, making a pushing motion as you walk toward the horse.....hands will be on either side of their head if they don't move-may even smack them if they don't get away. Usually that only happens once.


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## teresa60 (Mar 6, 2013)

I could not watch all of it .Very sad for the horse


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Really sad because the guy probably paid BIG BUCKS to be there!!!

Nancy


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

franknbeans said:


> I actually have used this method, correctly, and with better results,


:shock::shock:You mean to say you did it better than that eg?? Really?? You must be a wizard!! That's worth boasting about!


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

This video is pretty old and one of the first videos put out in order to "debunk" Parelli's methods. The horse is blind in one eye and (I didn't watch the whole video since I've seen it before) if this video goes on, Linda takes the horse and cracks it a couple times on it's blind side for not listening to her WHILE she's on the blind side. The poor thing couldn't see her, so the horse really didn't have a chance to respond "correctly".

If this is the "incorrect" way to do Parelli (IMHO, theres no correct Parelli method), then Linda is quit incorrect, and she is supposed to be the correct one since she's selling this stuff and whatnot.

I've retrained too many Parelli "failures" to believe that program works. I've seen the videos. The horses look confused and rushed. We had a horse in training who Parelli personally said to put down because he was so insane. He's now a 5ft show jumper, thanks to my instructor.

So, excuse my prejudice. I've seen too many train wrecks leave that program.


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