# What would you classify him as?



## Mnsdavis (Apr 30, 2020)

Attached will be baby pictures, a picture taken last summer, a picture taken last fall, a current picture and a picture of his sire and dam. 


I just purchased this 3 year old TWH gelding, and I'm not sure what to classify his color as. Sire was a buckskin and white tobiano, dam was a bay. Both registered twh.


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## Paintedponies1992 (Nov 17, 2013)

I'm going to go with Dark Bay


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Bay. Nothing classier than a well turned out bay.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with bay.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I'm going to say Bay as well


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

A very nice dark bay and I'd be willing to bet that if you kept him out of the sun, he'd be so dark he'd look black.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I'll be a bit different and say brown horse cause that is a huge range of shades.
Bay is a shade of brown, but I hesitate cause I'm not really seeing the black points of true bays.
He is really sun-faded so so hard to get true color in pictures.


I can see bay, but I also see "brown" as a big possibility.

:runninghorse2:


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Genetically bay and brown are the same. If I get to the computer early I'll see if I can find the BAB thread. Lovely horses, all shades of the brown end of the bay spectrum.

Also looks to be carrying nd1. Which will make him prone to fade. I'm not going to rule out black either looking closer, especially with nd1.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I'm going to throw another one in here: Smoky Black.


The foal color, lightening around the fetlocks, and lack of lightening on the muzzle you usually see in brown/seal bay are what makes me think of Smoky Black. The golden ear hair also gives me pause.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Yeah, smoky black was my guess too, after staring at the pics for awhile. I have a classic brown horse -- she isn't this color at all. A brown or dark bay has BLACK points -- this horse has sort of chocolate points. Brown horses have a sort of cinnamon tone to their muzzle and flanks -- not this horse. 

Here's my true brown mare, you can see how dissimilar they are:


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Phenotypes and genotypes. Phenotypes are what the horse looks like. Genotypes are what their genes say they should look like. Genes don't change. How genes interact and environment as well as nutrition can change the phenotype to something unexpected or make a horse look like one thing when genetically they are not. 



A black horse (EE, Ee with aa) is black all over when no dilution genes are present. There are those that say that cream on black will not be visible. I personally think there can be a difference for reasons that belong in a different thread if that discussion is opened. nd1 is a cause of the lighter ears in blacks and does result in more than typical fading. It can make them appear "brown". Cream on top of that can make the horse appear to be a color they are not genetically. 



A bay horse that is EEAa statistically has a higher chance of phenotypically being darkest of dark brown - seal bay. This horse would have a cinnamon muzzle and soft spots. Appear black at the change of season coat change. 



Bays are either EE or Ee with either AA or Aa as their agouti status. 



Extension (E) when combined with a is an all over black horse when no dilution genes are present. Combine E with an A and you have black points and a red body. The shade of red can be anything from appearing black to bright red.


The first two pictures are the same horse two different seasons EeAA. She is bay, can look black but is bay. The third is Eeaa plus nd1 and CR. He is black but can look bay. There have been times he has been confused with buckskin but he is not.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

I was going to say Bay. 

Since others further down the thread have mentioned Smokey Black, I have to agree with that.

If you’re looking to put something in his registration papers, Smokey Black would be correct, at this point in time, IMHO.

I’ll bet he changes color a few more times, over the next few years, simply because he has changed color every year since his birth

Did he sun bleach after you brought him home or before?

Sun bleaching to that degree can happen when the pasture and/or hay are loaded with iron and short on copper:zinc.

Iron depletes copper:zinc, which are needed not only for good coat & hoof health but to also stabilize insulin.

Walking Horses are prone to metabolic issues, so don’t let these two Lookers get fat


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Smokey Black has such a wide range of presentations, from being indistinguishable from black to being almost golden. But with his parents' colors it's possible.

Pull some hair and send it off. Only way to know for sure.


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## Willrider (Oct 25, 2018)

I can see bay, but I know some people with similarly colored horses who call it Smokey buckskin.


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## Keira Cloudhawk (Nov 18, 2019)

Was going to go with bay, but I'm going to go with smokey black instead. For a dark bay or brown, I believe both of the parents have to be bay, one has to be a dark bay (or both), or one of the parents have to be black. Yet again, I am not as big on horse genetics as @QtrBel.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

I would call the OP horse a fading black. To know if he carries a cream, you would need to test.


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## Mnsdavis (Apr 30, 2020)

Thank you all for the replies. I too am leaning towards smokey black. When I register him he will be DNAd so I'm not sure but maybe they will pull color then as well. I just purchased him a week and a half ago, the photos were all from his previous owner except the one in the cross ties. He's finally starting to shed his shaggy coat so we will see what he looks like once he sheds out.


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