# How to Handle Agressive/Abusive Handlers?



## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

So last night I went to my cousin's barn to watch her ride. Her lesson went great and I was waiting for her to come inside after she let her horse out. 

Well, I was standing near the tacking up area's talking to one of the girl's mom (new to horses). While we were talking a lady (20-25ish) was clipping her horse. The cord managed to get between the horse's back legs (about pastern height) so when the horse started getting anxious and took a step back, he unplugged the clippers. No big deal, right?

Well apparently it was. The handler then hit him in the flank area. Horse started panicking more so she untied him. New Horse Mom and I move so we won't get hurt. Well, horsey starts prancing around as soon as the handler plugs the clippers back on and turns them on. So she kicks him in the stomach HARD about four times. The horse flips his head up (he's pretty tall probably around 17hh) and smacks it on the heater (which was off) and starts flipping his head and prancing around. So, she jabs him twice with the clippers. She smacks him a few more times and then ties him up again. My cousin got back and we had to go.

Now, I would've liked to say something but I didn't really feel it was my place. Also, I've found that people tend not to take me seriously because of my age (being a teenager). 

So, my question is. What can I do in these types of situations? I understand that horses need to be punished sometimes but jabbing your horse with clippers and kicking him in the stomach? That's too far.


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## cfralic (Jan 17, 2011)

Honestly the best thing you could do IS say something. You might think that your opinion matters little to adults but saying something clearly in public will usually scare someone into rethinking what they're doing. When you keep silent people just continue doing what they do, maybe without realising what they do is wrong. Just don't get into an argument, say something like, "Hey! You are being way too rough with that horse!" and leave it at that. If she tries to argue just shake your head and walk away.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

It is so hard to know what to do. But I guess I might have said something. It's ridiculous for the handler to punish the horse for stepping and pulling the plug out, let alone the other things she was hitting on him for. She'll reap what she's sown, one of these days.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I dunno, some peops, if they are aggressive with their horses, might just be aggressive towards you. So if she barks back at you, what are you going to do? Get into a fight with her? Or do you think she would say, oh yes, you're right, I shouldn't kick my horse in the stomach, thank you for pointing this out? No, you report her to the barn owner, who has the authority to talk to her or not, their choice. Personally, I would say something to her, & if she wants to fight, she picked the wrong person, hehe.


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

waresbear said:


> I dunno, some peops, if they are aggressive with their horses, might just be aggressive towards you. So if she barks back at you, what are you going to do? Get into a fight with her? Or do you think she would say, oh yes, you're right, I shouldn't kick my horse in the stomach, thank you for pointing this out? No, you report her to the barn owner, who has the authority to talk to her or not, their choice. Personally, I would say something to her, & if she wants to fight, she picked the wrong person, hehe.


 
That's the exact thing that I was worried about. Once I say, "Hey, you're out of line." what next? Her response is most likely going to be negative. I have a VERY short temper and would probably end up yelling at her or something. Which wouldn't do any good.

My Mom took this course about gaining confidence and being the better person (or something along those lines) and while I agreed with most of the stuff in there, it said to avoid all conflict. Well, sometimes you have to stand up for something/someone, right? It's all so difficult. Not only am I shy (I'm working on that) but once I get mad enough it's like I'm a completely different person and I'm not afraid to say *exactly *what I'm thinking.

Thanks for suggesting the BO thing to me.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

The lady obviously has an anger management problem. Her problem will be self-limiting because she will never get much done with horses. 

You are not going to change her and she would probably just take it out on the horse, anyway. You could say something to the BO -- but chances are he/she already knows that said person is an a** h***. The customer taking the lessons (your friend) would be the appropriate one to say something. 

There is probably not much to gain from anything you would do. If a person with an anger problem is handling horses, it is kind of like telling a alcoholic that they should not drink. THEY have to decide they have a problem and THEY have to take the initiative to change it. Hopefully that will happen some day.

A friend saw a man beating a horse with a whip because it would not get into a trailer. They said he was hitting all over including its face. They were afraid to say anything so they went to their truck and got the camera they happened to have. Said he stopped immediately and walked off to get someone to help him 'drag' the horse in with a butt rope. Not much better but at least he wasn't beating on the poor horse's head.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Arksly said:


> So, my question is. What can I do in these types of situations? I understand that horses need to be punished sometimes but jabbing your horse with clippers and kicking him in the stomach? That's too far.


Kicking a horse in the stomach is not much of a discipline - more of an attention grabber.

I wouldn't be jabbing with a clippers though.

All in all - none of your business.


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## catsandhorses (Aug 6, 2011)

I would walk to the side of the horse, about 5-7 feet away and say in a calm voice, "Easy now". Once I got the rider's attention I would comment that he looks pretty spooked and would they like some help? Sometimes knowing there is an audience stops bad human behavior. It she didn't stop I'd encourage her to calm down as she is spooking the horse more. What ever you say, I don't think it is enough to tell the person to _stop_. What might work better is to tell the person _what they can do instead_.


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

mls said:


> Kicking a horse in the stomach is not much of a discipline - more of an attention grabber.
> 
> I wouldn't be jabbing with a clippers though.
> 
> All in all - none of your business.


 
So are you saying that if I see someone being unfair to their horse and causing harm to them I should just walk away?

I'm sorry, but I don't think I can stand for that. I know that I didn't do anything in this particular situation but I didn't know what to do. If I see this again, I *will* talk to the BO and voice my concern. I don't think that it's fair to the horse to just walk away.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> if I see someone being unfair to their horse


You will see this every day. You cannot become the 'fairness police force'.


> causing harm to them


Are we talking irreparable injury? I never saw anyone injure a horse by kicking it in the belly. I did see a farrier break his foot once. The 1300# horse he kicked I'm sure forgot about it long before the cast was off the man's foot.

You have to remember that one person's judgement of abuse Is just another person's use of ineffective discipline or poor skill. I see an unskilled rider hanging on a horse's reins and I see abuse. Unintentional abuse is still abuse. Do you think a person should butt in there, too?

No one should lose their temper and lose control when working with a horse. But, I am smart enough to not butt in unless actual injury is going to occur (like blinding a horse or crippling it.) Butting in may not be the safest thing to do, may make the abuse escalate and could make the wrong person turn on you with whatever is in their hand.

I disagree with how a lot of people 'train' their horses, but you cannot become the 'barn Nazi'. 

You cannot argue with a drunk or an angry person any more effectively than you can train an excited or mad horse that is in a 'reactive mode'. 

Anybody that has lived with an abusive parent or spouse or an alcoholic one can tell you that interfering with that abusive person when they are mad, can result in worse abuse and a greater chance of injury. That is what butting in can get you.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

I imagine, since you are a teenager, that the adult would probably tell you to take a hike, and in all truthfullness, it is her business how she diciplines her horse, not yours. What one person sees as "training and dicipline, another sees as abuse.
I love kids, have my own grandkids. They would no more think of going into a restaurant and running around as flying to the moon. Yet, how many times do you go into a restaruant and see kids running around, banging their forks on the plates, screaming, etc? I would have taken them outside by their ear, trust me. Yet, today it would be considered abuse.
I train dogs. My dogs MIND and MIND now. If I was working with a dog and had to dicipline it, and a teenager came over and started to "help me" I would tell them to take a hike. If I tell them to sit and they ignore me because of something else going on, I will PUT them in a sit and use my voice to do it. I would not kick a dog, because they are not a horse, but would use a jerk on the collar or whatever to make it happen. Yet, other folks will say" isn't that being a little hard on them"..... See, its how you percive it.
She was not beating her horse, she was not torturing her horse, she was diciplining it for moving around. Maybe in this case, she should have taken a breath, but how do you know the horse doesn't strike out or kick or some other thing while being groomed and was trying to avoid a major meltdown?
If this had been a BIG trainer, would you have felt you needed to butt in?
This is not your business, and I am sure the BO will say the same thing. Mind your own business, because you could be bringing alot more to your plate than just ignorning it.


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## AnneMarie66 (Nov 13, 2011)

Talk to your aunt or uncle about this situation. Do they want their child taking lessons at a barn that has possible safety concerns? Let them talk to the owner, manager, trainer, etc. and get some confirmation that this issue will be addressed (the professionals need to take this seriously - this is how barn/trainer bashing starts). This is poor advertisement for a barn in an economy like this. Let the adults handle it, but keep them informed. You have a good heart!


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## AnneMarie66 (Nov 13, 2011)

I find it amazing that with all these posts, everyone has focused on the horse/handler. There were two people standing within harms way because some handler lost their temper (someone dodged that lawsuit bullet). Horse people have an obligation to keep the people around them safe - obviously we don't operate in a bubble.


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## AnneMarie66 (Nov 13, 2011)

I respectfully disagree with wyominggrandma (where is the dislike button - or can we not be honest?). Don't get yourself into the "mind your own business" mantra. People and animals have suffered the world over because someone "minded their own business". You just have to become judicious about when it is appropriate. That will come with time, maturity, and education. Since you are a teen, find an adult you trust (and THEY make good decisions/choices) to help you with these dilemmas. You are on your way!


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

I a not in a "mind your own business" mantra. I am an adult who has lived and seen many things and during that time I have learned to be careful where and what I stick my nose into. The problem with "minding someone elses business" is the fact that the OP is a teenager and might be looking at a situation through teen eyes. What my teen grandchildren see when something happens can differ than what my old eyes see through years and years of experience. Why in the world would the OP or anyone stand there within harms way when they see something going on? Most people would move away from where the incedent is occuring, not stand there and watch and be in a position to be hurt.
If you see a car coming at you and you are in the middle of the street, do you stand there and watch it happen or move out of harms way?
The OP did not like the way a horse was being handled. She says it was being abused and what can she do? Maybe the handler of the horse does not feel they were abusing it or even being harsh, maybe she was making the horse behave itself. You don't walk up and pat a horse on the butt when its misbehaving, you let it know that you are standing there and demanding respect, usually by exerting more force than a slap or a "bad boy, stand there". It usually takes a well placed correction to get your point across.
Yep, you can disagree all you want to AnnMarie66. We all have our own opinions. I just tend to stick with giving advice that keeps a teenager out of confrontation situations, once you confront someone and find out the BO or other adults side with the handler instead of the teen, life can get hard real quick.


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## AnneMarie66 (Nov 13, 2011)

,This is not your business, and I am sure the BO will say the same thing. Mind your own business, because you could be bringing alot more to your plate than just ignorning it.[/QUOTE]
Grandma (and I am one too , so I am no kid) again, I respectfully disagree with you. These teenager needs moral support to do something that is right. She does not need to hear "go take a hike". We have fewer and fewer people involved with horses and this is no time to turn off future horse owners because "this is not their business". People leave the business because thay get tired of the arrogance from BO's, trainers, handlers, etc. I choose to support someone in making moral choices. PS I just disagreed with your initial post. The rest of the post should have been directed to the teenager. I apologize.


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

wyominggrandma said:


> i imagine, since you are a teenager, that the adult would probably tell you to take a hike, and in all truthfullness, it is her business how she diciplines her horse, not yours.


This exactly what I was thinking of when she was disciplining her horse. 



wyominggrandma said:


> if i was working with a dog and had to dicipline it, and a teenager came over and started to "help me" i would tell them to take a hike.


I would do the same thing with anyone.



wyominggrandma said:


> if this had been a big trainer, would you have felt you needed to butt in?


I have felt the need to butt in before with a big name trainer. She lost her cool when the horse got tense when beging taught to piaffe and started cantering on the spot.



annemarie66 said:


> talk to your aunt or uncle about this situation. Do they want their child taking lessons at a barn that has possible safety concerns? Let them talk to the owner, manager, trainer, etc. And get some confirmation that this issue will be addressed (the professionals need to take this seriously - this is how barn/trainer bashing starts). This is poor advertisement for a barn in an economy like this. Let the adults handle it, but keep them informed. You have a good heart!


Last year (I think) I made a thread about how when I went to the barn my cousin was riding at and how appauled I was at whalt was going on. They thought that they would just wait it out and see how it went. The very next day, my cousin went to a show and things went terribly wrong. THEN they moved.




wyominggrandma said:


> the problem with "minding someone elses business" is the fact that the op is a teenager and might be looking at a situation through teen eyes.


I have actually thought about the situation alot before coming to the conclusion that she was out of hand. I've seen people kick their horses before to get them to listen. Although I don't agree with it, I understand that horses are pretty tough. Now, the thing that really bothered me was that the horse did one minor thing and she went after him like he just bit someone's arm off. Jabbing a horse with clippers is out of line in almost everyone that I know's book.



wyominggrandma said:


> why in the world would the op or anyone stand there within harms way when they see something going on?


I made sure that we moved out of harms way. We were far enough that it was safe.




wyominggrandma said:


> the op did not like the way a horse was being handled. She says it was being abused and what can she do? Maybe the handler of the horse does not feel they were abusing it or even being harsh, maybe she was making the horse behave itself. You don't walk up and pat a horse on the butt when its misbehaving, you let it know that you are standing there and demanding respect, usually by exerting more force than a slap or a "bad boy, stand there". It usually takes a well placed correction to get your point across.


Once again, the behaviour that she was "correcting" was the horse taking a step back and unplugging the clippers because the cord was in between his hind legs.


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

How about this. What are some suggestions for adults standing up to agressive handlers. I can always learn something for the future.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Arksly said:


> The handler then hit him in the flank area. Horse started panicking more so she untied him. ............ So she kicks him in the stomach HARD about four times. The horse flips his head up (he's pretty tall probably around 17hh) and smacks it on the heater (which was off) and starts flipping his head and prancing around. So, she jabs him twice with the clippers. She smacks him a few more times and then ties him up again.
> ......... I understand that horses need to be punished sometimes but jabbing your horse with clippers and kicking him in the stomach? That's too far.


As a barn owner, I'd take very seriously what you said about the situation because teenager or no, you saw what you saw. I'd probably question you real thoroughly about the incident and ask a bunch of questions to make sure either you didn't know this person or if you knew her, you didn't have an axe to grind in regard to your relationship with her. Once I satisfied myself that you were in fact, just telling the bare unvarnished truth, I'd ask the boarder to come have a chat with me. 

My barn rules are very explicit about the kind of behaviour I'll tolerate and what I won't and belly kicking just happens to be on top of the list of "Won't Tolerates". That and slapping a horse around the face and earing them down are 3 of my major pet peeves and the first 3 items on my, "Don't Let Me Catch You Doing This" list. 

If she was an adult as you estimate, I'd have given her a verbal warning to stop that behaviour immediately and followed up with a written note reminding her of our discussion and enclosing a copy of the barn rules to remind her what she signed and agreed to when she came to board here. If it happened again.....OUT. She'd be told she'd have to move. 

So, I'm all about, don't YOU confront the out of control person, but you come to me, the barn owner and tell me what's going on and let ME confront the out of control person. That's part of my responsibility as a barn owner.


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## Countrylady1071 (May 12, 2010)

Dreamcatcher, why don't you like belly kicking? Just curious as I've seen it done quite a lot and haven't heard anything negative about it. Also, what do you mean by "earing them down?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AnneMarie66 (Nov 13, 2011)

Arksly, when you are an adult, you will have more experience ( and education) to deal with these situations. Go above that person's head (she sounds hostile) and present it to the person in charge, professionally and logically. Be polite yet firm and demand the same from them. Keep yourself above the "fray" and take the higher road at all times. People who CAN keep their cool and can back their information will get out ahead. You are young and there will plenty of horse experiences from which to learn from. ALWAYS learn something, even if it's a nasty situation like this.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Countrylady1071 said:


> Dreamcatcher, why don't you like belly kicking? Just curious as I've seen it done quite a lot and haven't heard anything negative about it. Also, what do you mean by "earing them down?"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I find belly kicking to be extremely dysfunctional. I've never seen anyone do it who hasn't totally lost control of the situation and so I just flat do not allow it on my place. It's generally accompanied by a lot of swearing, flailing arms and whips and lead lines and other useless behaviour and I find it really offensive. 

Earing down = grabbing a horse by the ear and either twisting or chewing or both, said to be like twitching or lip chaining, however again, usually done by people completely not in control of a situation and leaves the horse very ear shy. 

Please don't think I'm against disciplining a horse, I just don't believe in doing so when you've totally lost control over yourself, never mind the horse. Kind of like beating a 2 year old child....and just about as effective.


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## Countrylady1071 (May 12, 2010)

I do agree with you about the belly kicking, I completely see your point when you put it that way. When I see my boss do it, he is nearly always just totally beyond mad at that point and I don't feel he's getting anything accomplished except venting his anger. I guess the horse usually does stop whatever it was doing wrong (at least for a short amount of time) cause it's kind of "stunned." 
About the ear thing (never heard that term you used but I know what you mean now) they regularly do it at my barn while clipping, and I have to say, we only have two horses that I can think of off the top of my head that are ear shy. The rest very willingly let you touch/grab their ear.
I do wish they would just put more time into training them to accept clipping without twitching though. My two personal horses are great to clip, and if either of them weren't so easy, I would just put in more training/time until they WERE good, I wouldn't twitch them. I don't know how difficult it would be to train the average horse to accept clipping of the ears,etc without being twitched though so maybe I'm being ignorant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I find belly kicking to be extremely dysfunctional. I've never seen anyone do it who hasn't totally lost control of the situation and so I just flat do not allow it on my place. It's generally accompanied by a lot of swearing, flailing arms and whips and lead lines and other useless behaviour and I find it really offensive.


Maybe at your place. Anyone who knows horses and handles them enough realizes that a boot to the belly is an attention getter and nothing more. Just how do you suggest a 110 pound person respond to an 1100 pound horse attempting to kick at a horse walking by? Say "no no".

I find a boot to the belly (if I am on the ground) and a QUIT is very effective. Had the second horse been loose instead of being led by a person, they would of turned to each other and booted each other.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

mls said:


> Maybe at your place. Anyone who knows horses and handles them enough realizes that a boot to the belly is an attention getter and nothing more. Just how do you suggest a 110 pound person respond to an 1100 pound horse attempting to kick at a horse walking by? Say "no no".
> 
> I find a boot to the belly (if I am on the ground) and a QUIT is very effective. Had the second horse been loose instead of being led by a person, they would of turned to each other and booted each other.


Well, then it's a good thing you aren't a boarder here because you wouldn't stay here. I choose to not allow that kind of thing here, and I enforce it. 

I find ground manners training to be effective and if a horse has an issue like wanting to kick at another horse, a few minutes ground work can generally fix the problem. 

We are very low key here, have very few problems with our horses and no one here chews on ears, kicks bellies, screams or otherwise loses it with the horses. We do ask each other for help when things aren't going well and frequently, a different hand and different person handling the horse makes the issue just disappear. We've learned that our frustration communicates to the horses and a new person who isn't frustrated can frequently accomplish what the original person could not.

We're not afraid to use a crop or whip when needed, but again, very minimal physical agression is usually needed. 

I have a tip for you though, if you think YOU a 110 lb human are going to out muscle or out physical an 1100 lb horse, I suggest you check your meds 'cos you're delusional. LOL! That's meant as a joke, not as a slam, btw. :lol:


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> It's ridiculous for the handler to punish the horse for stepping and pulling the plug out, let alone the other things she was hitting on him for. She'll reap what she's sown, one of these days.


Is it OK with you that a handler punish their horse for not standing still when they have been told to.

What if the horse has been told to stand still while something is going on and the horse moving (after being told to stand still) ends up with the vet or farrier getting injured? 

Horse was told to stand still. Stepping on the cord and pulling it out of the wall is just the thing that happened when the horse did not stand still. I am guessing not what the horse was in trouble for as much as the not standing still.




wyominggrandma said:


> She was not beating her horse, she was not torturing her horse, she was diciplining it for moving around. Maybe in this case, she should have taken a breath, but how do you know the horse doesn't strike out or kick or some other thing while being groomed and was trying to avoid a major meltdown?


Yes! Totally agree.




Arksly said:


> Now, the thing that really bothered me was that the horse did one minor thing and she went after him like he just bit someone's arm off.


Not standing when told to stand is not really one minor thing.
And since you do not know the horse or its history it is pretty impossible for you to judge if this was a nothing or a something.




Arksly said:


> Once again, the behaviour that she was "correcting" was the horse taking a step back and unplugging the clippers because the cord was in between his hind legs.


Read above.... the issue was most likely not standing still.....


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Countrylady1071 said:


> I would just put in more training/time until they WERE good, I wouldn't twitch them. I don't know how difficult it would be to train the average horse to accept clipping of the ears,etc without being twitched though so maybe I'm being ignorant.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
I have no problem with using a proper twitch or lip chain to get a horse to be still while I'm clipping inside their ears. I also use cotton or horse ear plugs to deaden the sound and to catch the hair and keep it from falling inside the ear. I use only enough pressure on the lip chain (I prefer that to twitching) to get them to stand and usually after a few sessions, the chain is run through and laying on their gums but no pressure is on it, it just reminds them to stand still by being there. Eventually they don't even need that. I only have 2 horses out of 26 here that still need to have restraint while being clipped on their ears. 

When I talk about 'earing down' a horse, I'm not talking about how a lot of barns do it to hold them for ear clipping. They just sort of hold the ear with a little twist, kind of a "You better be good or...." kind of reminder while they clip the other ear. I'm talking about a grown man hanging onto that ear and twisting til you think it's going to come off and if the horse moves, sticking the tip in his mouth and chewing on it. Instead of training, let's just terrorize the horse into standing still. That's 'earing down' and can bring a horse down to its knees, literally.


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## Countrylady1071 (May 12, 2010)

I have never heard of someone chewing on a horses ear! But when we do the ear twitch, it's not just a gentle twist, they tell you to twist until you feel like the ear will come off. They definitely want it to hurt so the horse is completely focused on the ear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Well, then it's a good thing you aren't a boarder here because you wouldn't stay here. I choose to not allow that kind of thing here, and I enforce it.
> 
> I find ground manners training to be effective and if a horse has an issue like wanting to kick at another horse, a few minutes ground work can generally fix the problem.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a slam. I am ever so glad I am NOT at your facility. We do NOT use whips at my barn.

BOOOO.


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## robohog (Nov 24, 2011)

When we first got our horse, we had a friend who is a "horse trainer" try to train Cinny "her way" by hitting and whipping. Cinny finally got fed up with her and charged her and ran her out of the barn! Cinny has no issues with anyone but when he sees this lady, the ears pin back and the snorting begins! So i think our horse can take care of himself! lol


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

It's really hard to tell what to do in this type of situation. I remember being young at our barn and seeing things that I wasn't sure of, but we had great trainers at my barn then. I usually tried to find the barn's trainer WHILE it was happening and she would always step in. People really took her seriously because she was the trainer, gave lessons etc and if she knew something was going down that wasn't right, she would usually drop what she was doing to get in the middle of it. Some stable owners are good at that too. Otherwise, finding another adult that people know/respect to help back you up and witness it is also good.


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Is it OK with you that a handler punish their horse for not standing still when they have been told to.
> 
> What if the horse has been told to stand still while something is going on and the horse moving (after being told to stand still) ends up with the vet or farrier getting injured?
> 
> ...




I understand if the horse is moving quite a bit but the horse took one little step back. Like maybe half a foot, if that.

I'm somewhat lenient (sp?) with my horse moving. A little bit is acceptable, I know that it can get tiring standing still for a long time. What if he was just regaining balance? I see no harm in that. 

If a horse is dancing around then I understand a firm growl or maybe a quick jerk on the halter.


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

Arksly said:


> *I understand if the horse is moving quite a bit but the horse took one little step back. Like maybe half a foot, if that.*
> 
> I'm somewhat lenient (sp?) with my horse moving. A little bit is acceptable, I know that it can get tiring standing still for a long time. What if he was just regaining balance? I see no harm in that.
> 
> If a horse is dancing around then I understand a firm growl or maybe a quick jerk on the halter.


Yes, but have you ever dealt with a problem horse? For them to understand the boundaries you've laid out, you need to make it black and white for them. They don't understand "okay prance around a little bit" or "okay just this time". If I'm dealing with a horse who dances around in the cross ties, I nip it in the bud right away, meaning I expect him to stand still - even moreso than I expect from a horse who isn't an issue. If you allow the behaviour until they are really making a fuss, and THEN correct them, it is going to take a heck of a lot longer to get the behaviour under control, if at all. If it's made crystal clear from the start that they are not expected to move, period, and they are corrected for doing so and praised for standing still, they're going to get the point.

This is the point I believe WG was trying to make. You don't know this horse's history - I'm not condoning what the handler did or how she dealt with it, I wasn't there. However if it is a horse who tends to misbehave in the crossties, then yes, if he moves at *all* I will correct it.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Gremmy said:


> Yes, but have you ever dealt with a problem horse? For them to understand the boundaries you've laid out, you need to make it black and white for them. They don't understand "okay prance around a little bit" or "okay just this time". If I'm dealing with a horse who dances around in the cross ties, I nip it in the bud right away, meaning I expect him to stand still - even moreso than I expect from a horse who isn't an issue. If you allow the behaviour until they are really making a fuss, and THEN correct them, it is going to take a heck of a lot longer to get the behaviour under control, if at all. If it's made crystal clear from the start that they are not expected to move, period, and they are corrected for doing so and praised for standing still, they're going to get the point.
> 
> This is the point I believe WG was trying to make. You don't know this horse's history - I'm not condoning what the handler did or how she dealt with it, I wasn't there. However if it is a horse who tends to misbehave in the crossties, then yes, if he moves at *all* I will correct it.


Exactly. If I tell mine to stand and "wait"-he had better not move. Period. It goes back to "give them and inch....." From my experience, if you let them take a little step...the next one is bigger.....then the next one.....
You HAVE to correct the first movement. But then-I rarely use crossties altho I can if I want. I am sort of emphatic about standing. Mounted or not. 

MLS-with you all the way. My guys know that there are certain behaviors that will get my boot to their belly. They usually only do it once, if at all, and that is kicking. My foot is always there and available, and the behavior needs to be stopped NOW! Not in 5 seconds when you get the lead ready to smack them. Whips take too much thought, IMO. Never use them, unless just for the noise while lunging.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

This is exactly the thing I was trying to say in the beginning about a teenager seeing things differently than an adult.

Her comment about " it only stepped back a half a foot or so",

The OP says "she has no issue with her horse moving because it gets tired or needs to regain its balance, if its moving around a firm growl or a quick jerk on the halter."

She looks at the handler telling the horse in no uncertain tems " don't move" Obviously the horse moved and pulled out the cord and then the handler made her corrections. In her opinion as stated above, she has no issue with her horse moving a bit. Well, maybe this handler did not want this horse to move at all....... 

Moving a half foot when supposed to stand still could cause a vet to get hurt, a farrier to be stepped on or any number of issues. 
I stand by my comments that the teenager saw what she saw, decided it did not agree by her standards of how she makes her horse mind and felt she needed to report the lady for abuse to the barn owner.
When the OP's horse takes advantage of her letting it move a bit to regain balance or because its tired, and breaks her foot, or breaks the farriers foot , then she might understand that although the handler corrected her horse how she wanted to, the OP has no right to report a training correction that she knows nothing about, except it was mean to the poor horsie.


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

I think some of the stuff I'm trying to say isn't being read the way that I originally meant it to.

Let's move on. What would you suggest to an adult who is experiencing a moment with obvious abuse towards a horse?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

The point is, the example you have given as obvious abuse is not obvious abuse.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

franknbeans said:


> MLS-with you all the way. My guys know that there are certain behaviors that will get my boot to their belly. They usually only do it once, if at all, and that is kicking. My foot is always there and available, and the behavior needs to be stopped NOW! Not in 5 seconds when you get the lead ready to smack them. Whips take too much thought, IMO. Never use them, unless just for the noise while lunging.


EXACTLY!

By the time you have to run and grab a whip, the 3 second rule is long gone. The horse isn't going to know why s/he is being smacked. Not to mention, the whip HURTS and has the potential to cause an injury. My boot to the belly, might garner a grunt if I am lucky. It most certainly gets the attention and typically a contrite expression from said equine.

Thank you FranknBeans!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Inform the BO or manager that this person's abusive behaviour sends a message that it is condoned in his/her operation.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Except it wasn't abusive, it was a typical correction that most of us have made when our horse won't stand still.
It seems the 'abuse" is only in the eyes of the young girl, whom herself admits that she lets her own horse move around "when it needs to get its balance or gets tired".


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## loveyourgrits (Dec 6, 2011)

Kicking a horse in the belly is no different than another horse kicking another in the chest, belly, legs etc. 

There is a law among people that you can't use any amount of force that is greater against the agressor in contempt to pass with justice[ex. if someone slaps you..its only equal to slap back, not punch]. Considering this is a 1,000 or greater animal I personally believe that with out "weapons" you can hurt a horse more than he/she can hurt you with his "bare hooves/teeth". 
t
With that being said, yes you have to be mindful of your surroundings and make sure that you aren't putting anyone other than yourself [knowing there are consiqueces of your actions] in harms way. Also there is always a difference between disipline and going overboard but to each his own for deciding on what that may be..


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

To be honest, I'm beginning to feel attacked. Now, I could just be sensitive but I think this thread has swayed from what I originally intended. 

Let me try and clear some things up. I didn't necessarily mean that the handler was being abusive, more so that she was being too aggressive. I now understand that it's just the way that that particular handler may have been handling the horse. However, I still believe that the handler was out of line by jabbing the horse with the clippers. 

I was also trying to use my experience as an example of a situation and I was seeking suggestions on what I should do.

As a side note, I have always been taught to *never* use a whip, kick a horse, or jab them with clippers. Frankly, if I were to do that at my barn when there are other people around, we'd be asked to leave. 

So I'm sorry, for feeling the need to step in when I see someone punishing their horse in way's that I taught were unacceptable.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

You do realize that some people find jumping and flash nose bands to be abusive, right?

Different is not wrong.



To answer the question in a more general sense - if you feel someone at the barn is abusing a horse bring it to the attention of the BO/BM.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Alwaysbehind said:


> You do realize that some people find jumping and flash nose bands to be abusive, right?
> 
> Different is not wrong.
> 
> ...




Yup. It is their property and reputation. Period. They also typically have more experience than the average boarder, AND they are usually an adult. If you don't lke how they handle the situation, it is always your option to leave.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

There is no need to treat the horse as this gal observed. The horse was reacting then consequently punished. Short tempered people have no business being around horses until they cool off.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Saddlebag said:


> There is no need to treat the horse as this gal observed. The horse was reacting then consequently punished. Short tempered people have no business being around horses until they cool off.


There is also no reason to have a rude horse that will not stand still when told to.
Sometimes teaching requires the teacher to tell the student they are wrong. Horses do not really understand the logic of conversation so you sometimes have to speak in horse.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

IMO, stay out of it. You are not going to change her mind or her behavior...and the world does not operate by our rules, yours or mine.

And while I TOTALLY disagree with kicking horses, those that do this aren't about to change their habits to suit me. And this woman will not change her habits to suit you. 

There is nothing you can do. It is out of your hands. Learning this is one of the many difficult lessons learned while growing up.


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

So I went to the same barn again to watch my cousin ride. The same lady was there and when she was tacking up she was letting her horse move around. So, I don't think she was disciplining the horse for moving in the original scenario.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Arksly, I think you need to mind your own business. The lady owns her horse, its her life and her rules towards her horse. Not yours. Obviously the barn owner has no issues with this lady, why are you so adament that she is doing something wrong? Because you think you might know more than her?
Do you tell your cousin how to ride her horse or how to dicipline her horse? Do you stand around and observe the whole barn?
I think you need to watch your cousin ride and ignore everyone and everything else. When you own a barn, then you can tell people what to do and what they are doing wrong.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Arksly said:


> So I went to the same barn again to watch my cousin ride. The same lady was there and when she was tacking up she was letting her horse move around. So, I don't think she was disciplining the horse for moving in the original scenario.


Tacking up in very different than clipping.

Even so - let it go. Not your horse or even your barn.


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

mls said:


> Tacking up in very different than clipping.
> 
> Even so - let it go. Not your horse or even your barn.


I thought horses didn't understand boundaries like that. If he can move at all while tied up, what makes clipping any different?


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

It is very easy to tell how young you are and how inexperienced you are with life. You are just not willing to let this go, you want to prove to everyone around you that instead of listening to adults with alot more experience with horses and life in general, you want to have the last word and keep this going.
I can teach a dog to stand still like a statue in the show ring, but when its outside waiting to go in, if it moves its feet, thats okay. The dog knows the difference when he can move and when he can't. A horse would be the same. They do have understanding of training.
It is her horse and her rules, not yours. If she insists on the horse standing still for grooming but doesn't mind him moving around for being tacked up, then who are you to decide what is right?


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Whether the horse's owner's methods are right or wrong are a moot point.

What is the point is that this is none of the OP's business. Whether you or I agree with the method of handling or not

On my drive to the farm where our horses are kept, I pass many many horse farms.....and I disagree with how alot of these horses are kept....i.e. paddocks a mud pit, junked cars in field, no daytime hay supplementation now that grass is dormant in my area, none with blankets, some with no run in sheds, overcrowding of 11 horses in a small paddock, etc....the list can go on forever.....So, i could come up with a list of things a mile long that i disagree with, but really...who cares? If i stop and make suggestions to the owners about what I think they should or should not do, I am going to make alot of enemies and nothing will get changed anyhow...and i could even get shot!:shock:

*Bottom line, NO ONE is going to change their methods because YOU don't like it. You can buck and rear about it now, but in the end you will see.....the world does not need to follow your rules, and it wont. Maturity is achieved when you can come to accept that.*


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Arksly said:


> So I went to the same barn again to watch my cousin ride. The same lady was there and when she was tacking up she was letting her horse move around. So, I don't think she was disciplining the horse for moving in the original scenario.


Or...just maybe she had not told her horse to stand still at that time.

You horse is not trotting every minute you are sitting on it, but it is still wrong for not trotting when you tell it to trot.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Arksly said:


> I thought horses didn't understand boundaries like that. If he can move at all while tied up, what makes clipping any different?


Moving while being clipped can be dangerous. If a horse moves into the blades of the clipper, they can be cut. Especially if they are being clipped on their head or ears. A horse drops their head at the wrong time and - no forelock. They aren't going to be hurt if they move into a brush.


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## loveduffy (Dec 22, 2011)

when I see people doing some thing bad I ask them to stop so I could get to a save place before they get kill-that some time opens up away of taking to them about there behavior other time they say what is it to me and I say I do not wont to be here when they come to take your body away that is way to much paper work for me


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