# Blue eyes black foal



## Smokum (May 4, 2012)

I have done some reading & looking as much up as I can. I just get all confused with DNA. I will most likly get the kit and have one done. 

Colts information..
Sire: Black & white tobiano paint stallion
Bhr Jingo Drifter Paint
Dam: Black percheron mare
Sparrowview Hot Shot Harley Percheron

I have noticed in the sires pedigree, his dams sire is a red dun overo. a product of a black & a bay. four generations over is another dun overo.
Now i know foal colors are differnet a birth ^ his dorsal is just a over coat of some sort, so i dont look at that.









But I see the dun in the DNA and i look at my new colt and wonder, I know hes black & think hes going to be black. he is mousy "pewter" greyish black but he has brown/gold inner ear fuzz & 
a shade of blue in his eyes. Very dark steel legs & head, where the baby fuzz looks greyish blue. 

interesting... Yup... Im confused.








But I just wonder since his sire is a black and white paint stallion yet not homozygous to throw color if he passed something else.








I have never seen a black foal born with brownish color in the ears & blueish eyes. But people say its possible but he is not a "pure black horse" hes a smokey then? 
But the Dun in the blood. Its been passed through the generations as some people say only the parents give the foal its color. 
I do not believe that is true just with my boys sire's pedigree & a random weird Dun out of a black & bay.

So my question is.....

What secrets could his DNA hold. 
I wil be finding out through the test kit when i order it. 
But currious moms want to know!


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't many foals, like other animals, born with "blue/ish" eyes and then they fade or change into the correct color as the foal matures?


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## Laineylou (Sep 26, 2011)

The foal is black, he can only be black with the exception of being sorrel or chestnut, which he's clearly not. Neither dun nor cream can "hide" in their genes, it will always be expressed if they are carrying it.
Now whether or not he's a true black would be your next question, and I am not well versed on the genetic differences in a "true black" vs. a "non true black".


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

In order for a foal to be a dun, one of the parents MUST be a dun. The dun gene does not hide or skip generations.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

If you're only going off of the information on Allbreedpedigree you can be completely wrong about coat color. Anyone has access to those horse's records and can change any of the information for said horse, like their coat color. One of my mares is even registered with AQHA as a bay, and she's very clearly not a bay. She's as black as they come and will be tested with UC Davis then the test results sent to AQHA to change the color on her registration papers.

Hate to be the disappointing one but I doubt there is anything special going on with your foal's eyes. He seems to simply going through a phase most foals do.. His coat may change differ and change a tiny bit when he sheds his foal coat but he will never be a dun, or "become" a paint, or anything else drastic like that. He may carry one or more of the "paint" genes but a horse can be solid and carry those genes. Just because he has those things in his bloodline does not mean he will be one of those colors or carry that gene. He MAY be a smoky black but I'm not the best with those types of things. I'll leave that to other users who can give you more information about that. Hopefully Posiedon, NdAppy, and Chiilaa will find this thread and offer their ideas.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Most mammals are born without eye colour. The blue/gray colour that you see is actually the colour of the muscle itself. It will develop the normal brown colour over time. Foal looks black to me.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I see a black foal and since he is out of two black parents, his only options were black and chestnut and he surely does not look red. He also doesn't have blue eyes. Blue eyes on a foal would look like this: 









I also second DrumRunner about double checking the validity of the information on Allbreed. Up until recently, I didn't even notice my mare had a completely wrong horse pretty close up, giving her bloodlines she definitely doesn't have.


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## Smokum (May 4, 2012)

Drum Running. No not all foals are born with blue eyes. its the hmmm whats in the DNA!

Laineylou, that is not true either. In the pedigree it shows on the sires dams side MOSTLY ALL DUN & a few on sires side and the blacks that where most likly grulla's im sure. They where just so dark they pegged the few at black. They had to have the Dun factor
Being dun + whatever = ???? still has the Dun factor, just not seen .
Could have been a crop out, Dun comes in many shades it is Dd or DD is depending on when passed. and could be well hidden with black foals since they should have been labled grulla. they look black but DNA would most likly say otherwise since it would be hidden. since it was back when dun wasn't recongized in those shades.
Now knowing that the sires dam's side was mostly ALL DUNS bred to blacks here & there. the Dun is strong it didnt just up and leave. it was passed but not noticed and the horses where labled wrong. 
you *can't* _visually_ tell the ****/heterozygous states for dun, roan, black, or gray. so its sometimes over looked.

So that dun bred to a palomino created - dun
That dun was bred to a sorrel and that foal was UNKNOWN listed color
Unknown color was bred to a black and created another black (grulla i bet)
that black was bred to a red dun and that resulted in a bay.??? where the dun gene go?
that bay was bred to a chesnut & the chestnut has sorrel & red roan bred from it.. So now my folas sire is out of that chestnut and bay bred out of roans & duns & blacks...

Now to tell me the dun gene wasnt passed to those "labled" bays and blacks. They could have been grulla with the gene and there for passed without knowing and the black and white paint stallion could pose a Dun gene

So there for that black and white paint stallion may very well have a dun gene hidden becuase there is no way that dun skipped generations. thats why i posted his pedigree up to view for people too see that Dun gene in his blood instead of just saying NO or imposssible, it could have been. but people dont take the time to look.

Im not saying he is anything i was looking for words of wisdom
not to be put down or feel like im asking a stupid question but his pedigree has so much to say with very little to know.

Blue eyes may or may not happen. but i WONDER if it could be the moments in life before they turn BROWN that could be a answer to the DNA UNANSWERED QUESTIONS. 

OBVIOUSLY HES BLACK IN COLOR


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Like I said, the dun gene doesn't hide. If they have it, they show it. Just because one of the parents is a dun doesn't mean the foal will be a dun, either. You won't always get a dun baby from a dun parent, but you will never get a dun baby from horses who aren't duns. The dun gene isn't always passed on.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Dun does not hide. Your foal is not carrying dun. There is no way for dun to hide on any base coat. If you find a horse carrying dun and "hiding" it please post a picture.

Your foal also has what is referred to as "baby blues." They will change and will turn darker. Like Po posted, true blues are easy to tell from day one.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Dun is a dominant gene and will always be expressed if a horse carries it, like mentioned. And like you said, you cannot tell just by looking whether a horse is hetero or homozygous for it other than if the horse only had one dun parent, like you've been mentioning. If a grulla + a palomino = red dun, you know that red dun is heterozygous because the palomino doesn't carry dun and that red dun is only going to pass on dun 50% of the time, meaning it will have non-dun foals.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

I suspect that the "duns" in the background may be the result of countershading. This can make it look like a dorsal when it really isn't and is extremely common mistake to make - especially years ago when the genetics weren't as well known as they are today. There might have been a cream gene combined with the sooty (that would help increase that countershading) making it look sorta red dun-like. 

If that is the case and since smokey blacks can be really hard to tell from a regular black so are often times registered as just black - this foal *might* be smokey black. Its a long shot but the only other possibility than regular black.


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## Smokum (May 4, 2012)

I know he is not going to be blue eyed. read what i wrote.
I know the dun cannot be skipped. Im thinking it was just hidden in the DNA of PAST bred horses. if there is 1 dun parent, the dun can be passed.
and yes it can hidden by bay dun or black. thus grulla or bay dun
*"You can't visually tell the ****/heterozygous states for dun, roan, black, or gray. So its sometimes over looked."* Like i said

thus why most grullas are listed as black and most bay duns are listed bay.
from then on the pedigree is WRONG many horses are listed the wrong color at birth.. becuase people dont know whats hidden in the DNA
and then when that grulla is bred to a dun.. it created a bay.. sounds like a bay dun to me cuz the dun gene didnt just disapear.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

No it doesn't hide on bays or blacks. Many, many horses were misregistered in color. I don't believe that the registries initially recognized duns and they would have been registered as something else. It still doesn't meant that the dun gene was "hiding." Many, _many_ horses on allbreed are listed incorrectly.


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

Smokum said:


> and then when that grulla is bred to a dun.. it created a bay.. sounds like a bay dun to me cuz the dun gene didnt just disapear.



Actually it very well could have disappeared. Assuming both parents were heterozygous dun (which according to your description of the pedigree is very likely), then they foal would have a 75% chance of being some sort of dun (50% heterozygous and 25% homozygous), but that leaves a 25% chance of being a non-dun carrier. 

You CAN breed a grulla to a dun and get a bay. It is very possible. Just ask dun breeders :wink:


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