# Horse Buyer Claiming False Advertisement



## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

No. Buying sight unseen you get what you get. False advertising happens all the time in the horse world, which is why a wise person sees the horse in person. 

If I had a nickel for every horse height I have seen grossly overestimated, I would be rich. People need to learn to take accurate height measurements, but this is the buyer's loss in this case.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kristyjog (Nov 11, 2013)

Buyers loss. If the horses height was such a deal breaker for the buyer he should have measured the horse himself or had a pre purchase done and the horse measured.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

This is often a ploy to try to frighten the seller in to thinking there will be huge court costs, etc. but instead, will keep the horse if a substantial amount of the price paid is reimbursed. Her best bet is to not be drawn in to conversation and if it's by email, to ignore them but save them. If he calls, hang up. After the first contact, anything else is harassment.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

If it were me, I would take the horse, however, they would have to pay to haul it back. I won't want a horse I owned to be with an owner that doesn't want it. As far as obligated, no way, no how.


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

.

If the ad said almost 15 hands, 14.2 is almost 15 hands, next taller would be 14.3 and then the next "is 15 hands"

Not to mention, depending if you uses a measuring stick verses a measuring tape it is very easy to miss measure .1 hands.

I would tell your friend to tell them "sorry, I advertised almost 15 hands"

When buying something it is "buyer beware" they have no legal case unless your friend said the Horse for sale is 15-0 hands or intentionally tried to deceive, even them I doubt the buyer has a lot of recourse.




From Cornell Law Website:
*Caveat Emptor*

 Latin for "let the buyer beware." A doctrine that often places on buyers the burden to reasonably examine property before purchase and take responsibility for its condition. Especially applicable to items that are not covered under a strict warranty.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

waresbear said:


> If it were me, I would take the horse, however, they would have to pay to haul it back. I won't want a horse I owned to be with an owner that doesn't want it. As far as obligated, no way, no how.


This is how I feel about it. Personally, unless I was in a situation where I couldn't take him back, I would take a horse that I cared at all about back. Of course, they would absolutely be the ones sending it back on their dime. If they want to, then that's great. If not, they are not obligated to.


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## Tulojow (Apr 12, 2014)

Unfortunately, the horse returning may not be an option but we are going to work together to see of there's a way around it. The horse was kept at a high demand boarding facility and his stall has already been given to someone else. There aren't a lot of other facilities that aren't prohibitively expensive. 

We weren't sure if online ads were legally binding to be exact. It's possible my friend's measurement was obtained from a measuring tape - she was just getting nervous that she could be liable for a mismeasurement. I imagine if the horse was advertised as 15 hands and turned about to be 12 to 13 hands, that would be one thing. But, she wasn't believing me when I told her she couldn't be liable for a difference of 1 - 2 inches.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Exactly. If you advertised him as a 16hh tb and a welsh pony showed up, then there would be more of an issue...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bkylem (Sep 21, 2013)

It is just one of many ploys to get the price reduced. If you want to find something wrong, you will. You then just magnify its importance to the owner and keep the horse for a lower price. They knew they were going to get it lowered when they bought it.

Certainly not criminal, but highly unethical.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

waresbear has it right- if they want to send the horse back with their own money, then refund the cost (perhaps even minus a fee for the time the horse was off the market, giving up the stall in the boarding barn, etc.)

My horse's bill of sale says he's 15.2 hh. When I measured him, he was just under 15 hh, and now that he's barefoot he may be closer to 14.3 than 15 ;-) Fortunately in my case I was actually looking for a horse closer to 15 hh anyway. Anyone experienced in the horse world should know to take a horse's advertised height with a grain of salt and if an inch or two is going to make or break the deal they should have at least asked for photos of the horse being measured.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Show your friend what Caveat Emptor means. Write it out for her as she seems to block out what you tell her.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

I would hire a professional to measure the horse at its new location and if it is indeed 14.2 she should pay to get her horse back. 14.2 is a pony , you should be with in an inch of measuring a horse. Size can be very important in some instances.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Who is a professional horse measurer. Never heard of it. The horse is out of state. He bo't the horse, he owns it. Unless there's an ulterior motive why doesn't he put it up for sale? I'm sure a judge would ask that. This seller should quit worrying and bide her time. The judge may also ask why the seller hasn't returned the horse.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

churumbeque said:


> I would hire a professional to measure the horse at its new location and if it is indeed 14.2 she should pay to get her horse back. 14.2 is a pony , you should be with in an inch of measuring a horse. Size can be very important in some instances.


She actually listed the horse as under 15hh. The buyer had the ability to have a prepurchase exam done in which a vet could have measured the horse, but they declined to do so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

DuckDodgers said:


> She actually listed the horse as under 15hh. The buyer had the ability to have a prepurchase exam done in which a vet could have measured the horse, but they declined to do so.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A professional would be a knowledgeable horse person. Like a respected breeder or a vet to measure it. Under 15H is vague. A mini would fall under that category. So is she sent a mini it would be buyer beware.
I read it as just under 15H to me that is over 14.3 but not 15H
14.2 is a pony not a horse.


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## womack29 (Oct 30, 2011)

They took a risk buying sight unseen and are most likely have successfully gotten money back by doing this to other sellers.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> 14.2 is a pony not a horse.


 14.2 is the dividing point between a pony and a horse, thus it can be referred to as either. Additionally, a true pony has different proportions then a horse. I doubt any one would look at a 14hh champion AQHA reiner and call it a pony.

Any how, in this case it really is buyer beware. If height was a really important factor, the horse should have been measured by a vet, or the buyer should not have bought a horse that was "just under 15hh". If height is a deal breaker you wouldn't by a horse that had height listed as an approximate.

I know a friend who bought a gelding advertised as 15.2hh, and when we measured him he was barely 14.3hh. She didn't care too much, height was not a deal breaker, but in this case it was obvious the seller didn't bother to even attempt to measure him, and this was a horseman that had been breeding and training for years, and was in a very prominent position running an equine facility.


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

BlueSpark said:


> 14.2 is the dividing point between a pony and a horse, thus it can be referred to as either. Additionally, a true pony has different proportions then a horse. I doubt any one would look at a 14hh champion AQHA reiner and call it a pony.


Tell my 14-2 hand qh which is a cutting horse or my 14-1 Appy they are a pony and they will kick or bite you :lol::lol::lol:


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

BlueSpark said:


> 14.2 is the dividing point between a pony and a horse, thus it can be referred to as either. Additionally, a true pony has different proportions then a horse. I doubt any one would look at a 14hh champion AQHA reiner and call it a pony.
> 
> Any how, in this case it really is buyer beware. If height was a really important factor, the horse should have been measured by a vet, or the buyer should not have bought a horse that was "just under 15hh". If height is a deal breaker you wouldn't by a horse that had height listed as an approximate.
> 
> I know a friend who bought a gelding advertised as 15.2hh, and when we measured him he was barely 14.3hh. She didn't care too much, height was not a deal breaker, but in this case it was obvious the seller didn't bother to even attempt to measure him, and this was a horseman that had been breeding and training for years, and was in a very prominent position running an equine facility.


This is the best way I could think to say it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SummerRose (Oct 6, 2013)

"Sold as-is" is not always absolute if the horse has been misrepresented. A general overview here: SADDLED WITH A LAME HORSE? WHY STATE CONSUMER PROTECTION LAWS CAN BE THE BEST PROTECTION FOR DUPED HORSE PURCHASERS

Having said that, it is unlikely that a buyer would be awarded damages if a horse described as "under 15 hands" was, in fact, 14.2 (but juries being what they are, who knows?)


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> I would hire a professional to measure the horse at its new location and if it is indeed 14.2 she should pay to get her horse back. 14.2 is a pony , you should be with in an inch of measuring a horse. Size can be very important in some instances.


:rofl: Then there are LOT of Arabian, and other horses that are "ponies". A horse is a horse is a horse. A Dales that happens to be 14.3 might not be within breed standards, but it's still a pony. A horse that doesn't get taller than 14.2 is still a horse. It's not uncommon for a breed of horse, Arabians, QH, March Tacky and others to have horses that by your definition is a pony, but are still registered "horses". Not meeting a breed standard doesn't make a horse a pony or a pony a horse.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

its lbs not miles said:


> :rofl: Then there are LOT of Arabian, and other horses that are "ponies". A horse is a horse is a horse. A Dales that happens to be 14.3 might not be within breed standards, but it's still a pony. A horse that doesn't get taller than 14.2 is still a horse. It's not uncommon for a breed of horse, Arabians, QH, March Tacky and others to have horses that by your definition is a pony, but are still registered "horses". Not meeting a breed standard doesn't make a horse a pony or a pony a horse.


 they may call a miniature horse a hors, but it is still a pony.if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it is a duck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pyrros (Feb 10, 2012)

I don't know anything about the legalities but on the topic of heights, while they are usually over estimated I had the opposite happen!

When I got my now passed Ottb gelding he was advertised as 15hh. Got there to see this -behemoth-. After I got him home I sticked him and he measured 17.2. Luckily I like big horses but I'd hate to see what they thought a 17hh horse looked like if that was their idea of 15 hands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> they may call a miniature horse a hors, but it is still a pony.if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it is a duck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A 14.1 hand horse is not a miniature (that's a different breed of animal).
A 14.3 hand pony is not a horse.
A 14.1 Arabian, Marsh Tacky, etc.... is a horse not a pony.

If mommy and daddy are horses, then Jr is a horse even he only reaches 14 hands.
If mommy and daddy ponies, ten Jr is a pony even if he grows to be 14.3 hands.

Breed, not height, is what makes a horse or a pony.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm a fairly small guy. Am I 5'7" or 5'8"? Depends on the day, the doctor's office, etc. How tall is Mia? I've had vets say 15.2 & 15.3. I'm sure she is under 16 hands, but I wouldn't die of shock if someone measured her at 15.1.

How does one know?"_The FEI's definition of a pony still is, "a small horse whose height at the withers, having been measured on a smooth level surface, does not exceed 148 cm without shoes or 149 cm with shoes."_

_ 10. The pony must be positioned for measurement with the front legs parallel and perpendicular; the toes of the front feet should be in line. Both hindfeet must be taking weight and as near perpendicular as possible; the toes of the hind feet should be not more than 15 cm out of line with each other._

_ 11. The pony’s head must be in its natural upright position._

_ 12. The measurement must be taken at the highest point of the withers (i.e. immediately above the spinous process of the 5th thoracic vertebra) which should be identified by palpation if necessary and marked before any measurements are made. The FEI measuring ve terinarians may refuse to measure a pony whose withers show signs of having been interfered w ith._

_ 13. The veterinarian carrying out the measurement has the responsibility that the stick he uses is an accurate one. The stick must be fitted with a spirit level and must be shod with metal. A laser device can also be used._

_ 14. Each pony will be measured in succession by two FEI Measuring veterinarians. Should the two measurements differ, the lower of the two heights will be taken as definitive and no further measurement will take place at the competition._"​FEI Pony Measurement Rules Fine-tuned and Regulated | eurodressage

148 cm equals 58.26772 inches, without shoes, or 14.2 1/4 hands.



SouthernTrails said:


> Tell my 14-2 hand qh which is a cutting horse or my 14-1 Appy they are a pony and they will kick or bite you :lol::lol::lol:.


I've got a 13.0 hands mustang gelding. My wife claims that if you need to clean his sheath, you need only to tell him he's a pony & not a horse. He'll do his best then to prove otherwise...  ...Frankly, I"m willing to call him a horse.

As for the law, it depends on the state. If the buyer has a written promise the horse was at least 15.0 hands, then he might be entitled to something. Small claims cases can depend more on what the judge had for lunch than the law, but I doubt the buyer would get anything in most courts. I'm not a lawyer, and I doubt the horse cost enough to justify anyone hiring a lawyer.

We're in the process of selling 2 acres of land. The disclosure form I filled out was to the best of my knowledge, and I was extremely accurate - to the best of my knowledge. Being anal, I looked up things like road ownership, military low level routes and learned things I didn't know the entire time I owned the land. But our contract also calls for the BUYER to exercise due diligence, and not to rely on any of my statements as total, verifiable truth.

If you really want to know the legal 'truth', the best bet is to contact a county bar association referral service. You can usually get a reference that includes some time talking to a licensed attorney for $25-50. Internet advice is well meaning, but often wrong. But if I were the seller in this case, I'd probably say something rude to the buyer. If the buyer agreed to pay all costs in returning the horse, I probably would take the horse back on the theory that no horse I've owned should end up in the hands of a jerk like that.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> .if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it is a duck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But if the "duck" is too much bigger than all the rest I guess you'd say it was a goose? Regardless of the fact that it's parents were both ducks?

If it's too small what would that make it? A chicken? :rofl:

Breeding two horses will ALWAYS produce a horse (no matter how short or tall)
Breeding two ponies will ALWAYS produce a pony (no matter how tall).

As soon as the law of nature changes so I can breed two of the same animal and get a completely different breed then we'll throw out EVERYTHING we know about genetics.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

bsms said:


> "_The FEI's definition of a pony still is, "a small horse whose height at the withers, having been measured on a smooth level surface, does not exceed 148 cm without shoes or 149 cm with shoes."_
> 
> _10. The pony must be positioned for measurement with the front legs parallel and perpendicular; the toes of the front feet should be in line. Both hindfeet must be taking weight and as near perpendicular as possible; the toes of the hind feet should be not more than 15 cm out of line with each other._
> 
> ...


And yet an 14.1 hand Arabian "horse" is still a "horse" that is still within the breed standard for height. OOOOPS...I guess we better let them know that according to the FEI they can't be horses and must compete as "ponies" ? :lol:
Of course that's great news for folks who have a Dales that's 14.3. They can now show as horses.

I just love how the FEI ignores breed and just decides that it's all based on height :lol:. I guess the breeders and geneticist can close up shop. They've been wasting their time.
So now the FEI will have to have an Arabian, etc... "pony" class :lol:

Ok, I've had enough fun with this. Not being fan of the FEI (it's a competition thing :lol.
That FEI determination came out several years ago and they only measure the ponies for their competitions vs accepting certifications which is what they had done before (apparently people where certify small horses as ponies so now if you use a horse it has to be 148cm or less and if your Dales is 150cm, well, too bad. It's still not a horse, but you can't compete as a pony). But they accept a 14.1 Arabian is a horse. Horses don't get measured by the FEI to prove that they're horses (even if they're under 14.2) since being a tad shorter doesn't give you an edge in the horse categories with the taller horses, like being a tad taller does with the shorter ponies.

Also should be remembered that what the FEI is doing is only related to their competitions and not what a breed of equine actually is considered to be. They basically will allow a "horse" to compete in the pony class so long as it falls within below an accepted height. That does not make the horse a pony.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Wiki has a pretty good discussion of the various meanings of the word pony:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony

Like just about everything in both the horse world and the world of law, the correct answer is:

"*It depends....*" 

:? :? :?​


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

bsms said:


> Wiki has a pretty good discussion of the various meanings of the word pony:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony
> 
> ...


In the case of organizations that govern competing, etc. it do depend on the organization (e.g. if one of my boys joined the United States Pony Club - the oldest still as 7 months before he's too old - and is using one of my mares she would be considered a "pony"...all 16+ hand of her :lol

In the case of "breeds" it's governed by what the breed is. e.g. Icelandic Horse and Marsh Tacky routinely produce animals that are not over 14.2 and it's not uncommon to find Arabians, QH and others that sometimes fall short, but they are all still technically (and officially) horses. Even if they're allowed to compete as ponies with the FEI. There are breeds of ponies like the feral ponies (I couldn't spell the name even I remembered how to pronounce it) that live on a Virginia island, which are managed and sold, and the offspring of those returned to domestication can exceed 14.2 at times (but they're still "ponies"). Outside of groups who try to manage competitions, where size can make a difference it's the breed of the parents that determines if it's a pony or horse (I guess you could use height to make the determination of a horse/pony cross). Of course we're being extremely arrogant using just one set of standards since even countries can have different definitions. In Australia it's a horse at 14 hands (smaller is a pony) and a horse between 14-15 hands is called a "golloway".


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

This is kind of absurd! Height measurements can vary on the same horse. Because a horse's scapulas are not rigidly connected to their bodies, they can measure differently depending on the way they're standing, and how relaxed/tense they are. How they're holding their head and how long it's been since their feet have been trimmed can have an effect too. I have a measuring stick with a level on it. I've measured my horse a few times, while she is standing square on level concrete, and have measured anywhere from 16.3 to 17.1 hands, usually depending on how she's holding her head. She also sometimes leans away from the stick a little, so even if her feet are square, she's not standing 100% upright so I lose and inch or two on her. It's easier to miscalculate with a tape as well.

I don't think this buyer has a leg to stand on. The ad didn't even give a specific height. If it just said she was almost 15 hands, that's not a quantitative description and no promises were made.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Now that the issue of height has been well discussed, I'm wondering how the seller has dealt with the situation.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Saddlebag said:


> Now that the issue of height has been well discussed, I'm wondering how the seller has dealt with the situation.


I'd also be curious to know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rydernation (Mar 12, 2014)

I would think this is the situation where if she's actually not interested in the horse a mere two inches shorter, she could turn around and sell him herself to someone else. 14.2 is almost pony size and any 8 year old can ride him. A bigger lady like me would likely not want to try that. I wish you the best. Buying a new horse and getting it right is hard, IMHO it's better to be flexible and just sell him yourself than putting him on a truck back.


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

churumbeque said:


> I would hire a professional to measure the horse at its new location and if it is indeed 14.2 she should pay to get her horse back. 14.2 is a pony , you should be with in an inch of measuring a horse. Size can be very important in some instances.


I respect the fact that you believe so strongly in your facts. I do understand there are many areas in which size really does matter. I'm also certain that if you were purchasing a horse that needs to be suitable for... you would get off your rear, or at least hire a vet to do a PPE, and make certain the horse in question was suitable.
This situation screams fraud on the buyers part. They were too lazy or cheap to verify anything about this horse. The only true victim is the horse, second in line is the seller. The buyer knew exactly what he/she was doing.


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

Any updates?


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

KsKatt said:


> I respect the fact that you believe so strongly in your facts. I do understand there are many areas in which size really does matter. I'm also certain that if you were purchasing a horse that needs to be suitable for... you would get off your rear, or at least hire a vet to do a PPE, and make certain the horse in question was suitable.
> This situation screams fraud on the buyers part. They were too lazy or cheap to verify anything about this horse. The only true victim is the horse, second in line is the seller. The buyer knew exactly what he/she was doing.


Old thread but the seller said she may have mismeasured so how is that fraud on the buyers part?
She should have said in paperwork as is, not responsible for errors and you have the right to inspect or have an agent inspect the horse. 
I would have looked at the horse and if Id flown to see it I would be ****ed if it was advertised at 15H and was 14.2


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

I really have to explain this?
Seller says almost 15 hands. Buyer is fussing about false advertising. The opinion has been made that 14.2 can qualify as "almost" 15 hands. Had the seller said almost 15 hands and the horse had been 13 hands- I would cry foul. This is not the case. And, yes, horses can measure differently under different circumstances. Two inches just isn't that much.
On the other hand, the Buyer purchases sight unseen, puts out no effort what-so-ever to verify anything. No coming out, no PPE, nothing. All of a sudden the horse is not as expected? Really?
You feel it is up to the seller to tell the buyer that he (seller) is not perfect and he (buyer) has the right to inspect. Generally you try explaining the obvious to people they get all huffy and accuse you of treating them like they are stupid.
Or, are you one of those people that makes it necessary to receive a notebook of warnings on simple products; such as the warning to to drink a can of paint thinner.
The seller said "almost" 15 hands, please remember that. 
I get the strong suspicion that even if the horse had been the exact height this buyer would have found something else.
Why be so insistent on buying sight unseen? Personally, I simply wouldn't have sold this horse to this person. 
What I have come to wonder is the price on the horse. If this was some fancy $20,000.+ show horse, maybe. I really don't get that feeling here.


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

Would love an update.


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