# quick question..



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Nope.

Cremello is a double dilute - they have blue eyes and pink skin. However, their coat isn't actually white, it is a light cream colour.

Albino is the absence of any colour at all. The coat will be put white, and the eyes will be pink too since it restricts colour there too.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I've heard there is no such thing as true (pink eyed) albino horses. 

Does anyone know if that is accurate?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

There have been no documented cases of albino horses, no.


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

Technically, the creme gene is a form of albanism 

But a cremello would not be considered an albino, no.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

CheyAut said:


> Technically, the creme gene is a form of albanism
> 
> But a cremello would not be considered an albino, no.


That makes sense when I think about it... Did you know that Siamese in cats is also a form of albino? 

I love genetics lol


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

There is no such thing as albinoisnm in horses. There ARE however white horses out there with light blue or almost whiteish pink eyes or other oddly colored eyes. A maximumally expressed sabino for example will be completely white with light blue or odd eyes. I wouldnt call a double dilute an albino either as technically he IS a color, just had a double dose of dilution on top of it. 

So far as we know or have seens o far, EVERY horse in the world has a base color of either black or red. That black or red base color is simply modified or covered up by other genes in many many ways and many many combination of ways. 

I have seen some strange colors in teh gaited horse world. There is alot of sabino, dilutes and also champane genes floating around and everyone likes color so you see some crazy stuff. Color genes are amazing to me and a fun puzzle sometimes.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Trinity3205 said:


> There is no such thing as albinoisnm in horses. There ARE however white horses out there with light blue or almost whiteish pink eyes or other oddly colored eyes. A maximumally expressed sabino for example will be completely white with light blue or odd eyes. I wouldnt call a double dilute an albino either as technically he IS a color, just had a double dose of dilution on top of it.
> 
> So far as we know or have seens o far, EVERY horse in the world has a base color of either black or red. That black or red base color is simply modified or covered up by other genes in many many ways and many many combination of ways.
> 
> I have seen some strange colors in teh gaited horse world. There is alot of sabino, dilutes and also champane genes floating around and everyone likes color so you see some crazy stuff. Color genes are amazing to me and a fun puzzle sometimes.


Pretty sure that Chey Aut knows that it isn't true, pink eyed albino. However, some animals have albinism without the pink eyes and true white hair. Like I said, Siamese cats are actually displaying albino genes. Just because it presents pink eyes white hair in some species, does not mean it does in every species.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

There is such a thing as a leathal white, but I am not edgucated(SP) on the mater.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Even a LWO foal has blue eyes


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

Chiilaa said:


> Pretty sure that Chey Aut knows that it isn't true, pink eyed albino. However, some animals have albinism without the pink eyes and true white hair. Like I said, Siamese cats are actually displaying albino genes. Just because it presents pink eyes white hair in some species, does not mean it does in every species.


 
Right. Im just saying that the horse colors that "appear" to be possible albinos no matter the eye color (I have even see WHITE eyes before they were so bale blue) are genetically still a modified black or bay horse under all the modifying color genes. 

Could something crop up we dont know about? Sure...But as of today, horses are never albino genetically as the definition exists. 

I dont know anything about cat colors.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Trinity3205 said:


> Right. Im just saying that the horse colors that "appear" to be possible albinos no matter the eye color (I have even see WHITE eyes before they were so bale blue) are genetically still a modified black or bay horse under all the modifying color genes.
> 
> Could something crop up we dont know about? Sure...But as of today, horses are never albino genetically as the definition exists.
> 
> I dont know anything about cat colors.


Yup I hear that. And yes, I agree, underneath it a cremello is a chestnut horse just trying to fit in


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

haha yep thats about right 

Oooops that should have said black or red  not bay


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>> Right. Im just saying that the horse colors that "appear" to be possible albinos no matter the eye color (I have even see WHITE eyes before they were so bale blue) are genetically still a modified black or bay horse under all the modifying color genes. 
_
Albinism in other species does not cancel out their other color genetic potential. 

For example I have an albino rabbit. In rabbits, albinism happens when the "C" for full color is replaced with 2 recessive "c" genes. My albino doe still has A-, B-, D-, and E- pairs of genes for color-- its just that I can't tell what they are until I breed her, because being albino masks whatever else she has. Based on her pedigree, she is most likely aa BB cc dd EE, meaning if she was not albino she would be a solid blue... who cannot produce chocolate or tort/orange. 

Rabbits have several possibilities in the "C" series-- In order of dominance, there is C, for full expression of color (just as in horses.). Then C-chd, which removes yellow pigment, (causes chinchilla when the rabbit also has an agouiti gene), C-chl which causes siamese sable (lightened body color, darker color on nose, ears, feet, and tail) and C-hi which is an incomplete albino-- the rabbit's body is white and the rabbit has red eyes, but retains color on the nose, ears, feet, and tail. Then there is c, which is a complete albino.

Cream IS on the C series in horses. But unlike the genes on the C series in rabbits, It is an incomplete dominant-- when present with the full color C it affects the horse's color. I think in horse the pearl dilute is also on the C series? But research has never found a complete albino in horses as of yet.


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## DubyaS6 (Aug 30, 2010)

Man, I commend anyone who has the patience to learn all this stuff about genetics.

All I read of your post Eastowest was blah blah jibberish blah....

LOL!


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

LOL sorry bout that. 

Let me try to simplify it to the main point-- albino in other species happens because of one small blip on one small part of their color genes-- they still have all the genetics to be a full normal color, and would have been that color, if that albino blip hadn't happened. They still have all the genes for whatever color they are "under" the albino to pass along to their offspring.

In rabbits, since albinism is recessive, it takes both parents either being albino or carrying the gene for it to make albino babies.

If both bunny parents ARE albino, all their babies will be albino. If only one parent is albino and the other parent carries it, they can have some albino babies, but also will have babies that don't get the albino from both parents, and turn out whatever colors the parents' other color genetics combine to create.


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## DubyaS6 (Aug 30, 2010)

Makes complete sense


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Chiilaa said:


> Yup I hear that. And yes, I agree, underneath it a cremello is a chestnut horse just trying to fit in


I apologize for this (and going a little off topic)... but I couldn't resist the giggle... and to parry that with - no, underneath a cremello is a chestnut trying to stand out! :lol:


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

Trinity3205 said:


> A maximumally expressed sabino for example will be completely white with light blue or odd eyes.


Sabino does not cause blue eyes. The horse would have to be carrying either Splash or Frame as well.


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

Sabino1 - Sabino1 Testing

"Another distinguishing trait amongst sabinos is their eye color. They commonly have blue eyes or partially blue and brown eyes."


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

I think the differnce is horses do not "breed true" when it comes to color masking genes. I still would definately discount the double dilutes because the color is still expressed and showing, it has just been diluted twice and not actually covered to pure white/absense of color..make sense? (cremello and perlino diluting chestnet or black/bay...the color is clearly seen, just dilute)
IMO the closest thing horses have to albino would be a maximum overo horse. Even then, patchy color comes out most of the time. Seldom is the horse all white. It will never breed true however and most maximum horses either A. die of LWS or B. have colord ear spots or some such.

JMO of course...Im not a genetisict..Just find color intrieging.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Trinity3205 said:


> Sabino1 - Sabino1 Testing
> 
> "Another distinguishing trait amongst sabinos is their eye color. They commonly have blue eyes or partially blue and brown eyes."


Sabino does not cause blue eyes. Other white patterns do - splash and frame to be specific. However, it is very rare to find a horse that is Sab without any other white pattern.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Trinity3205 said:


> I think the differnce is horses do not "breed true" when it comes to color masking genes. I still would definately discount the double dilutes because the color is still expressed and showing, it has just been diluted twice and not actually covered to pure white/absense of color..make sense? (cremello and perlino diluting chestnet or black/bay...the color is clearly seen, just dilute)
> IMO the closest thing horses have to albino would be a maximum overo horse. Even then, patchy color comes out most of the time. Seldom is the horse all white. It will never breed true however and most maximum horses either A. die of LWS or B. have colord ear spots or some such.
> 
> JMO of course...Im not a genetisict..Just find color intrieging.





> al·bi·no (l-bn)
> n. pl. al·bi·nos
> 1. A person or animal lacking normal pigmentation, with the result being that the skin and hair are abnormally white or milky and the eyes have a pink or blue iris and a deep-red pupil.


 from albino - definition of albino by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

We have an image in our mind that albino = white with pink eyes. However, it may not display the same in every species, but it is albino.


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

I think that is simplistic and ther emay be more to the blue eyes of sabinos than we know. Sabino is a complex color pattern and works with other genes to produce its patterns. I think it is very likely that sabino and its cohorts lol can produce blue eyes or parti speckled eyes all by itself. The truth is we dont know for certain yet....to be fair. 

The pattern of sabino horses is polygenic - that is, controlled by more than one gene. http://www.horse-genetics.com/sabino-horses-genetics.html

"Blue eyes may sometimes occur in sabino horses, but are not considered to be characteristic of the type. Certain lines of horses exhibit blue eyes, such as the Khemosabi line in Arabians, though often only one blue eye is present. Probably blue eyes is linked to sabino in these lines, being caused by a separate gene that is often inherited with the sabino gene. "

http://www.horse-genetics.com/sabino-horses.html



More about cream and albino in horses.

Cream horses are sometimes called pseudo-albinos. In other animals (including humans) there are recessive alleles at the C locus that cause true albinism. Individuals homozygous for these alleles lack pigment in the hair, skin and eyes. Their eyes and skin are pink (due to the effect of the blood vessels beneath the surface) and albinism is often accompanied by various congenital defects. No true albino horses have ever been observed and presumably they are inviable (i.e. die in utero). The author also notes, from experience, that people often refer to cream horses as being white, although this is not the case.

cream horses


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

What I am saying is show me a Sab with blue eyes that DEFINITELY does not carry splash or frame. Since splash doesn't have a test yet(?) it is impossible to isolate and be sure that it is Sab causing the blue eyes.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

SB1 does NOT cause blue eyes. Blue-eyed Arabians are most likely carrying Splash. Also, much of what is considered to be "Sabino" in the Arab world is actually Dominant White (which also does not cause blue eyes).


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Chiilaa said:


> Sabino does not cause blue eyes.


That's good to know because I love sabino but I hate blue eyes!

But going back to the albino question... Albinism is actually a metabolic disorder in which the body doesn't produce pigment. Keep in mind skin is replaced all the time, so pigment production is an ongoing process. You're not just born with it and that's that. Double dilutes OTOH_ do_ produce pigment - it just happens to be light in color.


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## xxEmilyxx (Sep 5, 2010)

Just curious, Are there albino humans? I heard there were, but wasn't entirely sure thats true.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Yup - 1 in 20 000 chance


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Trinity3205 said:


> http://www.horse-genetics.com/sabino-horses.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Even in albino humans dark hair retains some colour. The skin of a cremello/perlino is pink, and their eyes are blue. They are meeting the requirements of being classed as albino.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>>> Cream horses are sometimes called pseudo-albinos. In other animals (including humans) there are recessive alleles at the C locus that cause true albinism. Individuals homozygous for these alleles lack pigment in the hair, skin and eyes. Their eyes and skin are pink (due to the effect of the blood vessels beneath the surface) and albinism is often accompanied by various congenital defects. No true albino horses have ever been observed and presumably they are inviable (i.e. die in utero). The author also notes, from experience, that people often refer to cream horses as being white, although this is not the case._

**BUT, to be classed as Albino, does there have to be TOTAL lack of pigment?**

al·bi·no (l-bn)
n. pl. al·bi·nos
1. A person or animal lacking normal pigmentation, with the result being that the skin and hair are abnormally white or milky and the eyes have a pink or blue iris and a deep-red pupil. 

_>>>> Even in albino humans dark hair retains some colour. The skin of a cremello/perlino is pink, and their eyes are blue. They are meeting the requirements of being classed as albino. _

I would tend to agree. Cream *IS* on the C allelle.

Here is another definition of Albinism I found-- 

*"The National Cancer Institute, a division of the U.S. National Institutes of Health, defines albinism as *
"A group of genetic conditions marked by little or none of the pigment melanin in the skin, hair, and/or eyes. People with albinism may have vision problems and white or yellow hair; reddish, violet, blue or brown eyes; and pale skin."

*Melanin is a dark pigment found in the skin, hair and eyes of humans and other animals. At least in humans, it is also in some internal organs. Dark colored humans and other animals have more melanin in their skin an outer covering (hair, feathers, scales). Melanin comes in two types; red to yellow (example, American Indians and Asians), and dark brown to black (example, Africans). Melanin production is genetic, meaning that it is a feature inherited from the parents of the individual. A reduced or complete lack of melanin production forms individuals we call albinos. There are about ten forms of albinism, some that don't look like what we commonly think of as albinos." *


Considering that the people and animals below are classed as Albinos (and from what I can find, all lack normal pigment because of genes on the C series or equivalent), I am wondering why the reluctance of calling double dilute cream horses albinos, or at least incomplete/partial albinos?


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